On personal liberties

MoeFaux · 23rd September 2003, 09:08 AM

ON THIS DAY IN HISTORY:
September 23, 1950
Congress passes the McCarran Act, also known as The Internal Security Act of 1950, overriding Harry Truman's veto. The act provides for severe restrictions on civil liberties, suspension of free speech, and placing of undesirable Americans in concentration camps. The act has never been repealed.
Named after then Senator Pat McCarran, the Act is still screwing people over today.
And while traveling Nevada freethinkers voice their opinions on their freedoms being taken away when they fly, they're doing it all the while in the airport that was named after the d*ck who passed the Act.

Nyarlathotep · 23rd September 2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoeFaux
[B
And while traveling Nevada freethinkers voice their opinions on their freedoms being taken away when they fly, they're doing it all the while in the airport that was named after the d*ck who passed the Act.[/b] [/b]

Only if we fly in or out of Las Vegas. There IS an airport in Reno you know.

But I agree with the gist of your post. I pretty much see todays political climate as merely McCarthyism Part Deux.

MoeFaux · 23rd September 2003, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep

Only if we fly in or out of Las Vegas. There IS an airport in Reno you know.

Oops. I had originally posted that on my blog (plus some choice swear words), which has mainly Vegas readers.
No offense meant to Reno folks.

Cleopatra · 23rd September 2003, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoeFaux
<The act has never been repealed.
Named after then Senator Pat McCarran, the Act is still screwing people over today.

Quote:

By R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 23, 2003; Page A03

The Bush administration has decided to pursue a 16-year-old effort to deport two Palestinian activists who as students distributed magazines and raised funds for a group the government now considers a terrorist organization, despite several court rulings that the deportations are unconstitutional because the men were not involved in terrorist activity.

I hope that the American people realize that it's only a matter of time for the Police to knock on their door ...

You must RESIST.

Nyarlathotep · 23rd September 2003, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoeFaux

Oops. I had originally posted that on my blog (plus some choice swear words), which has mainly Vegas readers.
No offense meant to Reno folks.

No offense taken, but then I'm not from Reno either.

But your post got me thinking, Nevada is one of the most schizophrenic states in the Union with regards to personal liberties. We were the first to legalize gambling (and the only one for many years), we are the only state with any form of legalized prostitution, yet we have the toughest drug laws in all 50 states and (though I couldn't swear to this because it is simply something I remember hearing on the radio once)overall the highest percentage of our populace incarcerated overall, higher than Iraq under Saddam Hussein. We are a weird weird state.

BTW, since you mentioned that your blog has a mostly Vegas readership, can I assume that you are from Vegas?

bignickel · 23rd September 2003, 09:26 AM

I'll toss you some beads if you show us your blog.

Chaos · 23rd September 2003, 09:28 AM

Quote:

I hope that the American people realize that it's only a matter of time for the Police to knock on their door ...

You must RESIST.

Indeed. Beware the beginnings of such things.

We Germans had a certain period in our history (which I will not name because this would certainly inspire some "Chaos compared Bush to Hitler" rant) that also started out pretty harmlessly - at least, harmless compared to what happened later.
But then, so did many other dictatorships, I think. People prefer to close their eyes and ignore the writings on the wall. And in the end, when all is over, they say "We had no idea it would come to that."

So relax, Americans, yours will not be the first democracy that dies because its citizens are more interesting in their own comfort than in their rights and freedom.

MoeFaux · 23rd September 2003, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep

yet we have the toughest drug laws in all 50 states and (though I couldn't swear to this because it is simply something I remember hearing on the radio once). We are a weird weird state.

BTW, since you mentioned that your blog has a mostly Vegas readership, can I assume that you are from Vegas?

I've lived in Vegas for several years now, but for the next few months I'm in Florida.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that NV has the toughest drug laws. It's a state that consists mainly of Mormans, and it was founded by Mormans.
In last years election, there were two very important personal liberty issues up. Question 2 and Question 9.
9 was to legalize up to 2 ounces of marajuana, and 2 was regarding gay unions. I voted for legalizing drugs, and for gay unions. However, it was no surprise that both of the issues lost.
The Mormans are bigots, and the people who are actually using drugs are too damn lazy to get out and vote. Yeah, it's a weird state.

Nyarlathotep · 23rd September 2003, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoeFaux

I've lived in Vegas for several years now, but for the next few months I'm in Florida.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that NV has the toughest drug laws. It's a state that consists mainly of Mormans, and it was founded by Mormans.
In last years election, there were two very important personal liberty issues up. Question 2 and Question 9.
9 was to legalize up to 2 ounces of marajuana, and 2 was regarding gay unions. I voted for legalizing drugs, and for gay unions. However, it was no surprise that both of the issues lost.
The Mormans are bigots, and the people who are actually using drugs are too damn lazy to get out and vote. Yeah, it's a weird state.

I don't think that we are as Mormon Controlled as Utah, but ther is a definate Mormon Presence here. THat could account for the loss on the Marijuana initiative but I chalk the loss on question 2 up to the fact that the proponents of it were much better organized. I don't know how it was in Vegas but up here, you couldn't without seeing a commercial or drive down the street without seeing a billboard that stated that gay marriages were a threat to families. I saw nary a commercial and very few billboards that presented the opposite view. It is sad that people are so influenced by advertising, but they are. I think the Marijuana initiative sufferedf romt he saem problem to alesser extent.

Cleopatra · 23rd September 2003, 09:59 AM

Sorry for interrupting but don't you have anything to say about those two people ?

Tony · 23rd September 2003, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I hope that the American people realize that it's only a matter of time for the Police to knock on their door ...

You must RESIST.

Tony · 23rd September 2003, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos

So relax, Americans, yours will not be the first democracy that dies because its citizens are more interesting in their own comfort than in their rights and freedom.

Im one American very interested in freedom and my rights, and I can assure you, there are millions like me.

Sundog · 23rd September 2003, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony

You'll have to explain the irony to me.

Have you ever been harassed by an overzealous cop? Maybe you're too young to have had that happen to you. I have. I'm not in favor of giving them any more power over my life.

Wait and see, they'll be knocking our doors down to carry us away for enjoying a quiet toke if this kind of thing goes on. They consider us the enemy.

Cleopatra · 23rd September 2003, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony

Im one American very interested in freedom and my rights, and I can assure you, there are millions like me.

Also, don't forget that you have a gun and you can shoot whoever tries to take away your personal liberties...

Tony · 23rd September 2003, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sundog

You'll have to explain the irony to me.

The irony is, Cleopatra is anti-gun and favors the control and/or complete ban of guns, but here she is saying we need to RESIST police state policies and stand up for our rights. Let me guess Cleo, we need to RESIST and stand up for our rights (but only the ones you agree with). Sorry if I am skeptical.

Have you ever been harassed by an overzealous cop? Maybe you're too young to have had that happen to you. I have. I'm not in favor of giving them any more power over my life.

I have MANY ideas regarding police power and what should be done about it, but I dont want to hyjack this thread. To make it simple, lets just say I agree with you.

Wait and see, they'll be knocking our doors down to carry us away for enjoying a quiet toke if this kind of thing goes on. They consider us the enemy.

Why do you think I am such a staunch supporter of the 2nd amendment?

Tony · 23rd September 2003, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Also, don't forget that you have a gun and you can shoot whoever tries to take away your personal liberties...

Perhap you're bullet proof, however, I am not, how do propose we "resist" when we have guns to our heads?

Cleopatra · 23rd September 2003, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony

Perhap you're bullet proof, however, I am not, how do propose we "resist" when we have guns to our heads?

Are YOU asking ME after the endless lectures you have given us that you need your guns to protect you from those that will try to deprive you from your personal liberties????

Give me a break.

Your constitution has given you the right and the means to protect your freedom, shoot the policeman, shoot those that they enforce the Patriot Act.

Tony · 23rd September 2003, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Are YOU asking ME after the endless lectures you have given us that you need your guns to protect you from those that will try to deprive you from your personal liberties????

Yes I am asking you, How do you propose we "resist" tyrannical police state policies?

Sundog · 23rd September 2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony

Yes I am asking you, How do you propose we "resist" tyrannical police state policies?

Ummmm....vote the b*stards out of office?

Nyarlathotep · 23rd September 2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Sorry for interrupting but don't you have anything to say about those two people ?

Sorry, I just so rarely meet a fellow Nevadan with political views that I even somewhat agree with that I got carried away.

But I will agree that a lot of the laws that got pushed through in the wake of 9/11, and many of our countries policies since then are, shall I say, overzealous. I don't know anything more about the two activists or their organization so I can't, honestly, form any real opinion beyond that. But I do agree that many of the new laws that are designed to go after terrorists now, have the potential to bite us in the butt and allow unscrupoulous elements among our governemnt to go after any one they darn well please later. It's a real probelm.

Cleopatra · 23rd September 2003, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony

Yes I am asking you, How do you propose we "resist" tyrannical police state policies?

Will you give up your pro-gun theories If I tell you??? Will you admit that you are wrong to believe that you need the gun to protect your personal liberty?

Not that I care, I just mentioned it because you had the nerve to point to me logical fallacies to discussions about gun-control.

What about waking-up and trying to persuade people around you to participate in the elections?

MoeFaux · 23rd September 2003, 10:48 AM

I'm pro-gun.
All the anti-weapon laws are killing people. If there just one passenger had had a gun on one of the planes on 9/11, the Trade Towers would still be standing. There's no doubt about that.
And women, more than men, should be pro-gun. A woman with a gun will stop an assailant. It prevents rape.

Cleopatra · 23rd September 2003, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep

Sorry, I just so rarely meet a fellow Nevadan with political views that I even somewhat agree with that I got carried away.

But I will agree that a lot of the laws that got pushed through in the wake of 9/11, and many of our countries policies since then are, shall I say, overzealous. I don't know anything more about the two activists or their organization so I can't, honestly, form any real opinion beyond that. But I do agree that many of the new laws that are designed to go after terrorists now, have the potential to bite us in the butt and allow unscrupoulous elements among our governemnt to go after any one they darn well please later. It's a real probelm.

American governments are easy to accuse people and countries for being terrorist organizations affiliates without providing enough evidence to support these claims, so none can really check if they know of what they are talking about.

How do you know that tomorrow the cooking club you belong to won't be considered by the government a terrorist organization?

Tony · 23rd September 2003, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sundog

Ummmm....vote the b*stards out of office?

So much for "resisting".

Peach Jr. · 23rd September 2003, 10:52 AM

After putting the Littlest Peach down for a well-deserved nap, I finally got to look at MoeFaux's link. Wow. It's sad, but not unbelivable (unfortunately) that the McCarran Act is being invoked today. Has it been ruled unconstitutional? I had a hard time figuring that out from the article. Of course, my lack of sleep might have something to do with that...

Nevada's a Mormon state too? I thought Utah and Colorado had the lock on religious nuts. Apparently not...

Tony · 23rd September 2003, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Will you give up your pro-gun theories If I tell you??? Will you admit that you are wrong to believe that you need the gun to protect your personal liberty?

Hypocrisy abounds.

Peach Jr. · 23rd September 2003, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoeFaux
I'm pro-gun.
All the anti-weapon laws are killing people. If there just one passenger had had a gun on one of the planes on 9/11, the Trade Towers would still be standing. There's no doubt about that.
And women, more than men, should be pro-gun. A woman with a gun will stop an assailant. It prevents rape.

My Mr. is pro-gun also. He's been urging me to take safety classes before we move and he takes his new job. The job would involve a *lot* of travel on his part and leave me and the baby alone for long periods of time.

Guns frighten me to death, and I can't make him understand that. I *really* don't want to learn how to use them...I'm not certain I could get good enough to not have it taken from me.

Sundog · 23rd September 2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony

Hypocrisy abounds.

Your guns give you the ILLUSION of security. Like a nuclear deterrent, they are useless if you ever have to use them against the authorities. Where do you think your freedom would be ten minutes later? Laying on the ground dead along with you.

Cleopatra · 23rd September 2003, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony

Hypocrisy abounds.

These were your arguments, dear Tony.

Don't roll your eyes that much, they will fall off your head and you won't be able to see whom you will be voting. Again.

Nyarlathotep · 23rd September 2003, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peach Jr.
After putting the Littlest Peach down for a well-deserved nap, I finally got to look at MoeFaux's link. Wow. It's sad, but not unbelivable (unfortunately) that the McCarran Act is being invoked today. Has it been ruled unconstitutional? I had a hard time figuring that out from the article. Of course, my lack of sleep might have something to do with that...

Nevada's a Mormon state too? I thought Utah and Colorado had the lock on religious nuts. Apparently not...

Well, let me put it this way, Nevada started part of the Utah Territory. Our earliest settlement was called Mormon station and we have the biggest Mormon population outside of Utah (in terms of % not in sheer numbers). We aren't as bad as Utah by any means, but there are enough Mormons here to be a force in politics.

Cleopatra · 23rd September 2003, 11:03 AM

MoeFaux

I apologize for derailing your thread but young Tony has been lecturing us for weeks that he needs guns to protect his personal freedoms and that this is the reason the Constitution gave him the right to carry guns...

The thread is about personal freedoms and how to protect them; guns is not one of the ways for a citizen to defend his freedom.

Tony · 23rd September 2003, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleopatra

These were your arguments, dear Tony.

My argument with you was:

Quote:

The irony is, Cleopatra is anti-gun and favors the control and/or complete ban of guns, but here she is saying we need to RESIST police state policies and stand up for our rights. Let me guess Cleo, we need to RESIST and stand up for our rights (but only the ones you agree with). Sorry if I am skeptical.

.....and you won't be able to see whom you will be voting. Again.

Huh?

Cleopatra · 23rd September 2003, 11:07 AM

Skeptical Tony, where did you post this?

MoeFaux · 23rd September 2003, 11:07 AM

Peach, there's nothing wrong with being afraid of guns. Guns are meant to destroy. However, with the proper education and training, you could learn how to be in control. You might be surpirsed to find that you actually like shooting.
There's all different kinds of uses for guns, from paintball to skeet shooting. Knowing how to use a gun doesn't make a person a killer. It just gives you a quirky hobby.
It never hurts to try something once. Hire a sitter and have the hubby take you to a practice range. Insist on a nice dinner afterwards, so you'll have a nice time no matter what.

gnome · 23rd September 2003, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoeFaux
ON THIS DAY IN HISTORY:
September 23, 1950
Congress passes the McCarran Act, also known as The Internal Security Act of 1950, overriding Harry Truman's veto. The act provides for severe restrictions on civil liberties, suspension of free speech, and placing of undesirable Americans in concentration camps. The act has never been repealed.

I'm on your side, MoeFaux, just wanted to correct an inaccuracy:

From the link you posted:

Quote:

In seeking the deportation in 1987 of Hamide, Shehadeh and six other Palestinian immigrants allegedly associated with the PFLP, the Reagan administration's Justice Department invoked a provision of the Cold War-era McCarran-Walter Act, which barred membership in communist groups. But a lawsuit filed by the so-called L.A. 8 led a federal appeals court to declare the law an unconstitutional infringement of free speech, and Congress repealed it in 1990.

So it seems that this law has been repealed after all. Which isn't stopping the "Justice" department from abusing people's rights under the Patriot act or other legislation, just that this law is not the problem.

LW · 23rd September 2003, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoeFaux
If there just one passenger had had a gun on one of the planes on 9/11, the Trade Towers would still be standing. There's no doubt about that.

I'd say there is a doubt about that, because in that case also the terrorists could have been carrying guns on the planes. I (or anyone else) can't say for certain what would have happened then. It might be that passangers would have shot the terrorists. Or it might be that the terrorists having an element of surprise could have intimidated everyone to stay put.

hgc · 23rd September 2003, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoeFaux
snip...

the people who are actually using drugs are too damn lazy to get out and vote. ...

If only you could vote through your television, via remote control, the potheads would take over the world, and then look at it really intensely until it starts to look really, really wierd, man. Got anything to eat?

Tony · 23rd September 2003, 11:15 AM

If so, why your support for the president and admiinistration responsible for the biggest inroads into personal freedom in the entire history of the country.

Huh? What the hell are you talking about?

Tony · 23rd September 2003, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Skeptical Tony, where did you post this?

Seek and yee shall find.

(a few posts up when Sundog asked me to explain the irony)

MoeFaux · 23rd September 2003, 11:19 AM

Cleo, when someone says that they need a gun to protect their freedom, they're usually saying that figuratively. Tony (I'm assuming here, I haven't seen the original statement by him) isn't going to go shooting people who infringe on his personal liberties. What a gun enthusiast and fighter for freedom is doing is usually championing the RIGHT to own a gun. When that right is taken away, that freedom is gone. The U.S. Constitution is all about rights, and they're slowly being taken away from us as people either don't care, don't notice, or are too stupid to pay attention.
No one should say who I have a right to sleep with. The governement should not be in my bedroom.
No one should say what my belief system should be. That's my own business and the business of those who I share it with.
What I do on my personal time is MINE. Owning a gun is my RIGHT, based on the freedoms that this country established all those years ago.
Where do you draw the line on what is personal and what is the governments business?
The moral rule that most freethinkers abide by is: Live your life your way without harming others.
That our government is now imprisoning people who have merely THOUGHT about a crime is disheartening - see
http://www.news-journalonline.com/Ne...TE06092003.htm

If guns are outlawed, then only criminals own guns.

23rd September 2003, 09:08 AM	#1
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919	On personal liberties ON THIS DAY IN HISTORY: September 23, 1950 Congress passes the McCarran Act, also known as The Internal Security Act of 1950, overriding Harry Truman's veto. The act provides for severe restrictions on civil liberties, suspension of free speech, and placing of undesirable Americans in concentration camps. The act has never been repealed. Named after then Senator Pat McCarran, the Act is still screwing people over today. And while traveling Nevada freethinkers voice their opinions on their freedoms being taken away when they fly, they're doing it all the while in the airport that was named after the d*ck who passed the Act.
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919

23rd September 2003, 09:11 AM	#2
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Re: On personal liberties Quote: Originally posted by MoeFaux [B And while traveling Nevada freethinkers voice their opinions on their freedoms being taken away when they fly, they're doing it all the while in the airport that was named after the d*ck who passed the Act.[/b] [/b] Only if we fly in or out of Las Vegas. There IS an airport in Reno you know. But I agree with the gist of your post. I pretty much see todays political climate as merely McCarthyism Part Deux.
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

23rd September 2003, 09:13 AM	#3
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919	Re: Re: On personal liberties Quote: Originally posted by Nyarlathotep Only if we fly in or out of Las Vegas. There IS an airport in Reno you know. Oops. I had originally posted that on my blog (plus some choice swear words), which has mainly Vegas readers. No offense meant to Reno folks.
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919

23rd September 2003, 09:17 AM	#4
Cleopatra Diva Caissa Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 9,272	Re: On personal liberties Quote: Originally posted by MoeFaux <The act has never been repealed. Named after then Senator Pat McCarran, the Act is still screwing people over today. Quote: By R. Jeffrey Smith Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, September 23, 2003; Page A03 The Bush administration has decided to pursue a 16-year-old effort to deport two Palestinian activists who as students distributed magazines and raised funds for a group the government now considers a terrorist organization, despite several court rulings that the deportations are unconstitutional because the men were not involved in terrorist activity. I hope that the American people realize that it's only a matter of time for the Police to knock on their door ... You must RESIST.
	__________________ Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting.~ Mark Twain.

23rd September 2003, 09:23 AM	#5
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Re: Re: Re: On personal liberties Quote: Originally posted by MoeFaux Oops. I had originally posted that on my blog (plus some choice swear words), which has mainly Vegas readers. No offense meant to Reno folks. No offense taken, but then I'm not from Reno either. But your post got me thinking, Nevada is one of the most schizophrenic states in the Union with regards to personal liberties. We were the first to legalize gambling (and the only one for many years), we are the only state with any form of legalized prostitution, yet we have the toughest drug laws in all 50 states and (though I couldn't swear to this because it is simply something I remember hearing on the radio once)overall the highest percentage of our populace incarcerated overall, higher than Iraq under Saddam Hussein. We are a weird weird state. BTW, since you mentioned that your blog has a mostly Vegas readership, can I assume that you are from Vegas?
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

23rd September 2003, 09:26 AM	#6
bignickel Mad Mod Poet God Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,724	I'll toss you some beads if you show us your blog.
	__________________ "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." - Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone

23rd September 2003, 09:28 AM	#7
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,776	Quote: I hope that the American people realize that it's only a matter of time for the Police to knock on their door ... You must RESIST. Indeed. Beware the beginnings of such things. We Germans had a certain period in our history (which I will not name because this would certainly inspire some "Chaos compared Bush to Hitler" rant) that also started out pretty harmlessly - at least, harmless compared to what happened later. But then, so did many other dictatorships, I think. People prefer to close their eyes and ignore the writings on the wall. And in the end, when all is over, they say "We had no idea it would come to that." So relax, Americans, yours will not be the first democracy that dies because its citizens are more interesting in their own comfort than in their rights and freedom.
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

23rd September 2003, 09:34 AM	#8
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919	Re: Re: Re: Re: On personal liberties Quote: Originally posted by Nyarlathotep yet we have the toughest drug laws in all 50 states and (though I couldn't swear to this because it is simply something I remember hearing on the radio once). We are a weird weird state. BTW, since you mentioned that your blog has a mostly Vegas readership, can I assume that you are from Vegas? I've lived in Vegas for several years now, but for the next few months I'm in Florida. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that NV has the toughest drug laws. It's a state that consists mainly of Mormans, and it was founded by Mormans. In last years election, there were two very important personal liberty issues up. Question 2 and Question 9. 9 was to legalize up to 2 ounces of marajuana, and 2 was regarding gay unions. I voted for legalizing drugs, and for gay unions. However, it was no surprise that both of the issues lost. The Mormans are bigots, and the people who are actually using drugs are too damn lazy to get out and vote. Yeah, it's a weird state.
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919

23rd September 2003, 09:55 AM	#9
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: On personal liberties Quote: Originally posted by MoeFaux I've lived in Vegas for several years now, but for the next few months I'm in Florida. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that NV has the toughest drug laws. It's a state that consists mainly of Mormans, and it was founded by Mormans. In last years election, there were two very important personal liberty issues up. Question 2 and Question 9. 9 was to legalize up to 2 ounces of marajuana, and 2 was regarding gay unions. I voted for legalizing drugs, and for gay unions. However, it was no surprise that both of the issues lost. The Mormans are bigots, and the people who are actually using drugs are too damn lazy to get out and vote. Yeah, it's a weird state. I don't think that we are as Mormon Controlled as Utah, but ther is a definate Mormon Presence here. THat could account for the loss on the Marijuana initiative but I chalk the loss on question 2 up to the fact that the proponents of it were much better organized. I don't know how it was in Vegas but up here, you couldn't without seeing a commercial or drive down the street without seeing a billboard that stated that gay marriages were a threat to families. I saw nary a commercial and very few billboards that presented the opposite view. It is sad that people are so influenced by advertising, but they are. I think the Marijuana initiative sufferedf romt he saem problem to alesser extent.
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

23rd September 2003, 09:59 AM	#10
Cleopatra Diva Caissa Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 9,272	Sorry for interrupting but don't you have anything to say about those two people ?
	__________________ Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting.~ Mark Twain.

23rd September 2003, 10:12 AM	#11
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,753	Re: Re: On personal liberties Quote: Originally posted by Cleopatra I hope that the American people realize that it's only a matter of time for the Police to knock on their door ... You must RESIST.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

23rd September 2003, 10:14 AM	#12
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,753	Quote: Originally posted by Chaos So relax, Americans, yours will not be the first democracy that dies because its citizens are more interesting in their own comfort than in their rights and freedom. Im one American very interested in freedom and my rights, and I can assure you, there are millions like me.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

23rd September 2003, 10:17 AM	#13
Sundog Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,071	Re: Re: Re: On personal liberties Quote: Originally posted by Tony You'll have to explain the irony to me. Have you ever been harassed by an overzealous cop? Maybe you're too young to have had that happen to you. I have. I'm not in favor of giving them any more power over my life. Wait and see, they'll be knocking our doors down to carry us away for enjoying a quiet toke if this kind of thing goes on. They consider us the enemy.
Sundog Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,071	__________________ I come not to bring peace, but a sword. -- Jesus H. Christ

23rd September 2003, 10:26 AM	#14
Cleopatra Diva Caissa Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 9,272	Quote: Originally posted by Tony Im one American very interested in freedom and my rights, and I can assure you, there are millions like me. Also, don't forget that you have a gun and you can shoot whoever tries to take away your personal liberties...
	__________________ Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting.~ Mark Twain.

23rd September 2003, 10:29 AM	#16
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,753	Quote: Originally posted by Cleopatra Also, don't forget that you have a gun and you can shoot whoever tries to take away your personal liberties... Perhap you're bullet proof, however, I am not, how do propose we "resist" when we have guns to our heads?
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

23rd September 2003, 10:31 AM	#17
Cleopatra Diva Caissa Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 9,272	Quote: Originally posted by Tony Perhap you're bullet proof, however, I am not, how do propose we "resist" when we have guns to our heads? Are YOU asking ME after the endless lectures you have given us that you need your guns to protect you from those that will try to deprive you from your personal liberties???? Give me a break. Your constitution has given you the right and the means to protect your freedom, shoot the policeman, shoot those that they enforce the Patriot Act.
	__________________ Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting.~ Mark Twain.

23rd September 2003, 10:34 AM	#18
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,753	Quote: Originally posted by Cleopatra Are YOU asking ME after the endless lectures you have given us that you need your guns to protect you from those that will try to deprive you from your personal liberties???? Yes I am asking you, How do you propose we "resist" tyrannical police state policies?
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

23rd September 2003, 10:36 AM	#19
Sundog Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,071	Quote: Originally posted by Tony Yes I am asking you, How do you propose we "resist" tyrannical police state policies? Ummmm....vote the b*stards out of office?
Sundog Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,071	__________________ I come not to bring peace, but a sword. -- Jesus H. Christ

23rd September 2003, 10:42 AM	#21
Cleopatra Diva Caissa Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 9,272	Quote: Originally posted by Tony Yes I am asking you, How do you propose we "resist" tyrannical police state policies? Will you give up your pro-gun theories If I tell you??? Will you admit that you are wrong to believe that you need the gun to protect your personal liberty? Not that I care, I just mentioned it because you had the nerve to point to me logical fallacies to discussions about gun-control. What about waking-up and trying to persuade people around you to participate in the elections?
	__________________ Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting.~ Mark Twain.

23rd September 2003, 10:48 AM	#22
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919	I'm pro-gun. All the anti-weapon laws are killing people. If there just one passenger had had a gun on one of the planes on 9/11, the Trade Towers would still be standing. There's no doubt about that. And women, more than men, should be pro-gun. A woman with a gun will stop an assailant. It prevents rape.
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919

23rd September 2003, 10:51 AM	#23
Cleopatra Diva Caissa Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 9,272	Quote: Originally posted by Nyarlathotep Sorry, I just so rarely meet a fellow Nevadan with political views that I even somewhat agree with that I got carried away. But I will agree that a lot of the laws that got pushed through in the wake of 9/11, and many of our countries policies since then are, shall I say, overzealous. I don't know anything more about the two activists or their organization so I can't, honestly, form any real opinion beyond that. But I do agree that many of the new laws that are designed to go after terrorists now, have the potential to bite us in the butt and allow unscrupoulous elements among our governemnt to go after any one they darn well please later. It's a real probelm. American governments are easy to accuse people and countries for being terrorist organizations affiliates without providing enough evidence to support these claims, so none can really check if they know of what they are talking about. How do you know that tomorrow the cooking club you belong to won't be considered by the government a terrorist organization?
	__________________ Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting.~ Mark Twain.

23rd September 2003, 10:52 AM	#24
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,753	Quote: Originally posted by Sundog *Ummmm....vote the bstards out of office?** So much for "resisting".
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

23rd September 2003, 10:52 AM	#25
Peach Jr. Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 258	After putting the Littlest Peach down for a well-deserved nap, I finally got to look at MoeFaux's link. Wow. It's sad, but not unbelivable (unfortunately) that the McCarran Act is being invoked today. Has it been ruled unconstitutional? I had a hard time figuring that out from the article. Of course, my lack of sleep might have something to do with that... Nevada's a Mormon state too? I thought Utah and Colorado had the lock on religious nuts. Apparently not...
	__________________ I'm going to be more assertive today - if that's OK with you... 99 multi-tentacled demon gods on the wall, 99 multi-tentacled demon gods, If one of those Chthulus should happen to fall, 98 multi-tentacled demon gods on the wall

23rd September 2003, 10:54 AM	#26
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,753	Quote: Originally posted by Cleopatra Will you give up your pro-gun theories If I tell you??? Will you admit that you are wrong to believe that you need the gun to protect your personal liberty? Hypocrisy abounds.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

23rd September 2003, 10:56 AM	#27
Peach Jr. Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 258	Quote: Originally posted by MoeFaux I'm pro-gun. All the anti-weapon laws are killing people. If there just one passenger had had a gun on one of the planes on 9/11, the Trade Towers would still be standing. There's no doubt about that. And women, more than men, should be pro-gun. A woman with a gun will stop an assailant. It prevents rape. My Mr. is pro-gun also. He's been urging me to take safety classes before we move and he takes his new job. The job would involve a lot of travel on his part and leave me and the baby alone for long periods of time. Guns frighten me to death, and I can't make him understand that. I really don't want to learn how to use them...I'm not certain I could get good enough to not have it taken from me.
	__________________ I'm going to be more assertive today - if that's OK with you... 99 multi-tentacled demon gods on the wall, 99 multi-tentacled demon gods, If one of those Chthulus should happen to fall, 98 multi-tentacled demon gods on the wall

23rd September 2003, 10:57 AM	#28
Sundog Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,071	Quote: Originally posted by Tony Hypocrisy abounds. Your guns give you the ILLUSION of security. Like a nuclear deterrent, they are useless if you ever have to use them against the authorities. Where do you think your freedom would be ten minutes later? Laying on the ground dead along with you.
Sundog Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,071	__________________ I come not to bring peace, but a sword. -- Jesus H. Christ

23rd September 2003, 10:58 AM	#29
Cleopatra Diva Caissa Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 9,272	Quote: Originally posted by Tony Hypocrisy abounds. These were your arguments, dear Tony. Don't roll your eyes that much, they will fall off your head and you won't be able to see whom you will be voting. Again.
	__________________ Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting.~ Mark Twain.

23rd September 2003, 11:00 AM	#30
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Quote: Originally posted by Peach Jr. After putting the Littlest Peach down for a well-deserved nap, I finally got to look at MoeFaux's link. Wow. It's sad, but not unbelivable (unfortunately) that the McCarran Act is being invoked today. Has it been ruled unconstitutional? I had a hard time figuring that out from the article. Of course, my lack of sleep might have something to do with that... Nevada's a Mormon state too? I thought Utah and Colorado had the lock on religious nuts. Apparently not... Well, let me put it this way, Nevada started part of the Utah Territory. Our earliest settlement was called Mormon station and we have the biggest Mormon population outside of Utah (in terms of % not in sheer numbers). We aren't as bad as Utah by any means, but there are enough Mormons here to be a force in politics.
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

23rd September 2003, 11:03 AM	#31
Cleopatra Diva Caissa Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 9,272	MoeFaux I apologize for derailing your thread but young Tony has been lecturing us for weeks that he needs guns to protect his personal freedoms and that this is the reason the Constitution gave him the right to carry guns... The thread is about personal freedoms and how to protect them; guns is not one of the ways for a citizen to defend his freedom.
	__________________ Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting.~ Mark Twain.

23rd September 2003, 11:05 AM	#32
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,753	Quote: Originally posted by Cleopatra *These were your* arguments, dear Tony. My argument with you was: Quote: The irony is, Cleopatra is anti-gun and favors the control and/or complete ban of guns, but here she is saying we need to RESIST police state policies and stand up for our rights. Let me guess Cleo, we need to RESIST and stand up for our rights (but only the ones you agree with). Sorry if I am skeptical. .....and you won't be able to see whom you will be voting. Again.** Huh?
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

23rd September 2003, 11:07 AM	#33
Cleopatra Diva Caissa Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 9,272	Skeptical Tony, where did you post this?
	__________________ Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting.~ Mark Twain.

23rd September 2003, 11:12 AM	#35
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,869	Re: On personal liberties Quote: Originally posted by MoeFaux ON THIS DAY IN HISTORY: September 23, 1950 Congress passes the McCarran Act, also known as The Internal Security Act of 1950, overriding Harry Truman's veto. The act provides for severe restrictions on civil liberties, suspension of free speech, and placing of undesirable Americans in concentration camps. The act has never been repealed. I'm on your side, MoeFaux, just wanted to correct an inaccuracy: From the link you posted: Quote: In seeking the deportation in 1987 of Hamide, Shehadeh and six other Palestinian immigrants allegedly associated with the PFLP, the Reagan administration's Justice Department invoked a provision of the Cold War-era McCarran-Walter Act, which barred membership in communist groups. But a lawsuit filed by the so-called L.A. 8 led a federal appeals court to declare the law an unconstitutional infringement of free speech, and Congress repealed it in 1990. So it seems that this law has been repealed after all. Which isn't stopping the "Justice" department from abusing people's rights under the Patriot act or other legislation, just that this law is not the problem.
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,869	__________________

23rd September 2003, 11:14 AM	#36
LW Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 60°N 25°E Posts: 2,800	Quote: Originally posted by MoeFaux If there just one passenger had had a gun on one of the planes on 9/11, the Trade Towers would still be standing. There's no doubt about that. I'd say there is a doubt about that, because in that case also the terrorists could have been carrying guns on the planes. I (or anyone else) can't say for certain what would have happened then. It might be that passangers would have shot the terrorists. Or it might be that the terrorists having an element of surprise could have intimidated everyone to stay put.

23rd September 2003, 11:15 AM	#37
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,988	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: On personal liberties Quote: Originally posted by MoeFaux snip... the people who are actually using drugs are too damn lazy to get out and vote. ... If only you could vote through your television, via remote control, the potheads would take over the world, and then look at it really intensely until it starts to look really, really wierd, man. Got anything to eat?

23rd September 2003, 11:17 AM	#39
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,753	Quote: Originally posted by Cleopatra Skeptical Tony, where did you post this? Seek and yee shall find. (a few posts up when Sundog asked me to explain the irony)
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain