Are there other Pentagon videos?

cisco · 28th January 2008, 02:48 PM

Is there reason to believe that there are videos of Flight77 hitting the Pentagon that we haven't seen yet? I've alternatively heard yes and no from both sides.

If yes, when will they be released, if ever?

Viper Daimao · 28th January 2008, 02:50 PM

If there were anymore or better videos of the plane hitting the pentagon, I think they would have been used in the trial right?

cisco · 28th January 2008, 02:52 PM

I have no idea. I heard a clip of the PopMech factchecker on a radio show saying he got to see a video no one else has seen. I don't know the date of the clip, though. He might've been talking about the 4 frame video we've all seen now.

ElMondoHummus · 28th January 2008, 02:53 PM

I don't know if I can answer you directly, unfortunately, because I have no personal knowledge of the Pentagon's security setup. But, I can point you at something another member here pointed out to me once, which was a post over at BAUTForum from an ex-staff member at the Pentagon:

Quote:

Why isn't there more video? Without telling too much of what I know of Pentagon security, you would be suprised how few cameras there are outside the building. Humans actively patrolling a building's perimeter are a tad more effective than dozens of monitors which may or may not be watched at any given moment. Given the limited number of entrances to the facility (all highly controlled areas), cameras are generally only needed in high traffic areas like vehicle control points (such as the one this video came from). What about the surrounding buildings. I've been to the AFFEES gas station on the hill more than a hundred times and can honestly tell you I never noticed a camera pointed towards the Pentagon... that doesn't mean there isn't one, but the filling stations don't seem to be arrainged in such a way as to provide camera coverage of the pumps and the Pentagon.

Source: http://www.bautforum.com/conspiracy-...tml#post746514

Yeah, I know it doesn't directly answer the question, so my apologies for that. But, it does help us set our internal expectations on what we might be available to begin with.

RedIbis · 28th January 2008, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by cisco

Is there reason to believe that there are videos of Flight77 hitting the Pentagon that we haven't seen yet? I've alternatively heard yes and no from both sides.

If yes, when will they be released, if ever?

Is there video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon that we have seen?

Par · 29th January 2008, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Is there video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon that we have seen?

Yes. There’s the clip recorded by the camera at the Pentagon helipad.

gumboot · 29th January 2008, 12:42 AM

Personally given my understanding of surveillance cameras, I can see no logical reason why anyone would have a camera pointed at that section of the building.

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by Par

Yes. There’s the clip recorded by the camera at the Pentagon helipad.

And it shows Flight 77? Wow, haven't seen that one. Please link.

twinstead · 29th January 2008, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

And it shows Flight 77? Wow, haven't seen that one. Please link.

Not enough frame rate, hard to tell what it was.

That's why we rely more on things like DNA and other physical evidence like plane debris, and eye witnesses.

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by twinstead

Not enough frame rate, hard to tell what it was.

That's why we rely more on things like DNA and other physical evidence like plane debris, and eye witnesses.

Ok, just making sure I didn't miss a video that actually shows Flight 77.

Disbelief · 29th January 2008, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Ok, just making sure I didn't miss a video that actually shows Flight 77.

What do you expect? A camera with a high enough frame rate to show you the tail number of the plane? A camera zoomed in perfectly for you to see what was happening in that exact spot?

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Disbelief

What do you expect? A camera with a high enough frame rate to show you the tail number of the plane? A camera zoomed in perfectly for you to see what was happening in that exact spot?

I don't have a particular expectation. The claim is that the video shows Flight 77. It doesn't.

Par · 29th January 2008, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Is there video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon that we have seen?

Originally Posted by Par

Yes. There’s the clip recorded by the camera at the Pentagon helipad.

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Wow, haven't seen that one.

I see. In that case, no, there isn’t a video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon that we have seen. Nevertheless, here is a video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlXR9OWE3pE

Par · 29th January 2008, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

The claim is that the video shows Flight 77. It doesn't.

If you think that something other than Flight 77 hit the pentagon, then by all means present your evidence for the same.

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Par

I see. In that case, no, there isn’t a video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon that we have seen. Nevertheless, here is a video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlXR9OWE3pE

That video shows something hitting the pentagon, but there is no way from this video that you can say that it's Flight 77.

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by Par

If you think that something other than Flight 77 hit the pentagon, then by all means present your evidence for the same.

Focus. This is about videos which show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon, please don't derail the discussion and ask me to speculate.

Disbelief · 29th January 2008, 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

That video shows something hitting the pentagon, but there is no way from this video that you can say that it's Flight 77.

Based upon the other physical evidence at the scene, yes you can say that it is Flight 77. Was there something else that you think struck the Pentagon on 9/11?

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Based upon the other physical evidence at the scene, yes you can say that it is Flight 77. Was there something else that you think struck the Pentagon on 9/11?

Not based on the video you can't. Please refer to Post #16 for the rest.

Par · 29th January 2008, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Focus...please don't... ask me to speculate.

Focus. I didn’t ask you to speculate.

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Par

Focus. I didn’t ask you to speculate.

What do you call this,

Quote:

If you think that something other than Flight 77 hit the pentagon

Disbelief · 29th January 2008, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Not based on the video you can't. Please refer to Post #16 for the rest.

So, do you live in a vacuum? Do you think that they only relied on the video for evidence? You have to use ALL the evidence, not just cherry pick.

Don't worry Red, I have seen you post enough to now that you would not answer the question.

Originally Posted by RedIbis

I don't have a particular expectation. The claim is that the video shows Flight 77. It doesn't.

Obviously, you must have some expectation. You say that you can't put together the evidence to know that the video shows Flight 77, so you have to be expecting something more to prove it to you.

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Disbelief

So, do you live in a vacuum? Do you think that they only relied on the video for evidence? You have to use ALL the evidence, not just cherry pick.

Don't worry Red, I have seen you post enough to now that you would not answer the question.

Obviously, you must have some expectation. You say that you can't put together the evidence to know that the video shows Flight 77, so you have to be expecting something more to prove it to you.

I'm not debating whether or not Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. I'm merely pointing out that the video does nothing to prove that it did. That video alone only proves that something hit the Pentagon, but cannot be used to substantiate the actual flight.

BTW, what is the working theory on the contrail that is present in the video?

Par · 29th January 2008, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Focus...please don't... ask me to speculate.

Originally Posted by Par

Focus. I didn’t ask you to speculate.

Originally Posted by RedIbis

What do you call this,

Originally Posted by Par

If you think that something other than Flight 77 hit the pentagon

I call it a quotation that you have cynically truncated in order to alter its meaning. Here is the full context:

Originally Posted by Par

If you think that something other than Flight 77 hit the pentagon, then by all means present your evidence for the same.

DGM · 29th January 2008, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Focus. This is about videos which show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon, please don't derail the discussion and ask me to speculate.

There is video of "something" hitting the Pentagon. Now it's time to identify what it was. Should we turn to physical evidence or ignore that and try to guess?

Gravy · 29th January 2008, 05:44 AM

Here's a little "focus" for people too confused to figure out that flight 77 hit the Pentagon. From the lists I've collected,

104 people directly saw the plane hit the Pentagon.

6 were nearly hit by the plane in front of the Pentagon. Several others were within 100-200 feet of the impact.

26 mentioned that it was an American Airlines jet.

39 others mentioned that it was a large jet/commercial airliner.

2 described a smaller corporate jet. 1 described a "commuter plane" but didn't mention the size.

7 said it was a Boeing 757.

8 witnesses were pilots. One witness was an Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower Chief.

2 witnesses were firefighters working on their truck at the Pentagon heliport.

4 made radio calls to inform emergency services that a plane had hit the Pentagon.

10 said the plane's flaps and landing gear were not deployed (1 thought landing gear struck a light pole).

16 mentioned seeing the plane hit light poles/trees, or were next to to the poles when it happened. Another 8 mentioned the light poles being knocked down: it's unknown if they saw them hit.

42 mentioned seeing aircraft debris. 4 mentioned seeing airline seats. 3 mentioned engine parts.

2 mentioned bodies still strapped into seats.

15 mentioned smelling or contacting aviation/jet fuel.

3 had vehicles damaged by light poles or aircraft debris. Several saw other occupied vehicles damaged.

3 took photographs of the aftermath.

Many mentioned false alarm warnings of other incoming planes after the crash. One said "3-4 warnings."

And of course,

0 saw a military aircraft or missile strike the Pentagon.

0 saw a plane narrowly miss the Pentagon and fly away.

Mark Willams: "When Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped into their seats. The stench of charred flesh overwhelmed him.

'It was the worst thing you can imagine,' said Williams, whose squad from Fort Belvoir, Va., entered the building, less than four hours after the terrorist attack. 'I wanted to cry from the minute I walked in. But I have soldiers under me and I had to put my feelings aside.' "Source
"I did see airplane seats and a corpse still strapped to one of the seats."
–Capt. Jim Ingledue, Virginia Beach Fire Dept. Source

Video: pilot Aziz ElHallan saw flight 77 hit Pentagon, shows aircraft debris that landed near his car.

"Had I not hit the deck, the plane would have taken off my head."Source

Reporter Mike Walter responds to conspiracists: Yes, I saw an American Airlines jet hit the Pentagon.

"The part in question is the power supply for the emergency lights. ...I assure you it was Flight 77, AA 757 5BP."

Any questions, "focus" group?

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by Par

I call it a quotation that you have cynically truncated in order to alter its meaning. Here is the full context:

My apologies. Allow me to rephrase. That video does not show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon. That video cannot be used to substantiate that FLight 77 hit the Pentagon. No I will not speculate as to what I "think" hit the Pentagon.

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Gravy

Any questions, "focus" group?
[/center]

[/indent][/left]
[/indent]

Yeah, is that it? A scrap on the grass?
ETA: Gravy, do you have a video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon?

Disbelief · 29th January 2008, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

I'm not debating whether or not Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. I'm merely pointing out that the video does nothing to prove that it did. That video alone only proves that something hit the Pentagon, but cannot be used to substantiate the actual flight.

BTW, what is the working theory on the contrail that is present in the video?

Once again, do you live in a vacuum? Why are you only cherry picing the video and not putting the rest of the evidence together? You substantiate the claim based on the eyewitness testimony, DNA evidence and physical evidence at the scene. Why disregard this?

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Once again, do you live in a vacuum? Why are you only cherry picing the video and not putting the rest of the evidence together? You substantiate the claim based on the eyewitness testimony, DNA evidence and physical evidence at the scene. Why disregard this?

I'm trying to stick to the OP. There are no videos which show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon.

DGM · 29th January 2008, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Once again, do you live in a vacuum? Why are you only cherry picing the video and not putting the rest of the evidence together? You substantiate the claim based on the eyewitness testimony, DNA evidence and physical evidence at the scene. Why disregard this?

Most of Reds arguments have nothing to do with the big picture. The wording is the key. Pointless really.

Dave Rogers · 29th January 2008, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

My apologies. Allow me to rephrase. That video does not show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon. That video cannot be used to substantiate that FLight 77 hit the Pentagon. No I will not speculate as to what I "think" hit the Pentagon.

RedIbis, a question, just out of curiosity and the desire to avoid unfounded speculation about your thinking on this. Let's suppose that there is no video in existence that clearly shows the identity of the object that hit the Pentagon. What conclusions would you draw from that information, either in isolation or in concert with all the other evidence available?

Dave

VespaGuy · 29th January 2008, 06:10 AM

Everybody here sees the silly game you are playing, Red. By your logic, I could ask for a video of Tom Brady throwing a touchdown pass. When one is shown I can simply say, "Well, that's surely somebody throwing a touchdown pass with a jersey that says Brady on the back, but he's wearing a helmet and I can't see his face. It could be anyone! Show me one of Tom Brady! Ha! You can't!"

The video shows something hitting the Pentagon. The something is Flight 77 based on all of the evidence (see Gravy's post above).

If it isn't Flight 77, please let us know what it is.

(Go Pats!)

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by DGM

Most of Reds arguments have nothing to do with the big picture. The wording is the key. Pointless really.

Specificity is the point.

Disbelief · 29th January 2008, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

I'm trying to stick to the OP. There are no videos which show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon.

No, you are once again playing games. With the body of evidence proving that Flight 77 hot the Pentagon, a video showing of something hitting the Pentagon leads to only one valid conclusion about that object. Anything else that can be dreamed up, does not fit the evidence and would only be speculation.

Why do you fight every little piece of evidence, Red? To say that the video does not show Flight 77, you must have some theory in mind for what it does show. Of course, this must be corroborated by the rest of the evidence.

RedIbis · 29th January 2008, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

RedIbis, a question, just out of curiosity and the desire to avoid unfounded speculation about your thinking on this. Let's suppose that there is no video in existence that clearly shows the identity of the object that hit the Pentagon. What conclusions would you draw from that information, either in isolation or in concert with all the other evidence available?

Dave

Only that there is no video. Nothing else. Perhaps, Gravy's list is persuasive, which is quite possible. But I sure hope he doesn't pretend that the video is evidence.

Totovader · 29th January 2008, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Specificity is the point.

Since when did "specificity" become a euphemism for equivocation?

DGM · 29th January 2008, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Specificity is the point.

Not if you have to ignore the big picture. Then it's pointless.

Dave Rogers · 29th January 2008, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Only that there is no video. Nothing else. Perhaps, Gravy's list is persuasive, which is quite possible. But I sure hope he doesn't pretend that the video is evidence.

Well, it's evidence rather than proof, I'd say. There appears to be a vague feature on the frame before impact which is consistent with the size of a 757 at the appropriate distance from the camera, and from the frame rate it's moving at approximately the correct speed to have traversed the distance seen between the two frames. Therefore, if one were to accept that flight 77 hit the Pentagon, one could then state that this video shows it hitting, and at the very least it raises no contradictions in the account, but you're correct that it doesn't unambiguously establish the fact by itself.

Dave

DavidJames · 29th January 2008, 06:22 AM

Ah yes, the CTists credo - show me the movie or it didn't happen.

Originally Posted by RedIbis

Specificity is the point.

Disingenuous game playing, anti-intellectual semantic nit picking and endless equivocation, is what you are all about.

MetalliSociety · 29th January 2008, 06:23 AM

You can clearly see the dimensions of a large Jetliner in that video. The body sticks out from the end of that pole whatever thing infront of the camera, and you can clearly see the tail section, and the smoke from the damaged engine.

That, along with specific debris that matches the plan, DNA of the passengers, luggage, IDs, and eye witnesses all add up to Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon.

28th January 2008, 02:48 PM	#1
cisco Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 709	Are there other Pentagon videos? Is there reason to believe that there are videos of Flight77 hitting the Pentagon that we haven't seen yet? I've alternatively heard yes and no from both sides. If yes, when will they be released, if ever?
cisco Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 709

28th January 2008, 02:52 PM	#3
cisco Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 709	I have no idea. I heard a clip of the PopMech factchecker on a radio show saying he got to see a video no one else has seen. I don't know the date of the clip, though. He might've been talking about the 4 frame video we've all seen now.
cisco Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 709

28th January 2008, 02:53 PM	#4
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 11,938	I don't know if I can answer you directly, unfortunately, because I have no personal knowledge of the Pentagon's security setup. But, I can point you at something another member here pointed out to me once, which was a post over at BAUTForum from an ex-staff member at the Pentagon: Quote: Why isn't there more video? Without telling too much of what I know of Pentagon security, you would be suprised how few cameras there are outside the building. Humans actively patrolling a building's perimeter are a tad more effective than dozens of monitors which may or may not be watched at any given moment. Given the limited number of entrances to the facility (all highly controlled areas), cameras are generally only needed in high traffic areas like vehicle control points (such as the one this video came from). What about the surrounding buildings. I've been to the AFFEES gas station on the hill more than a hundred times and can honestly tell you I never noticed a camera pointed towards the Pentagon... that doesn't mean there isn't one, but the filling stations don't seem to be arrainged in such a way as to provide camera coverage of the pumps and the Pentagon. Source: http://www.bautforum.com/conspiracy-...tml#post746514 Yeah, I know it doesn't directly answer the question, so my apologies for that. But, it does help us set our internal expectations on what we might be available to begin with.
	__________________ must take this very carefully....booze is wise men's drink..... -pillory "... I'm quite willing to have everyone use my rejection of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a basis for assessing my intelligence, judgment, and trustworthiness" -Prof. Ann Althouse

28th January 2008, 05:27 PM	#5
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by cisco Is there reason to believe that there are videos of Flight77 hitting the Pentagon that we haven't seen yet? I've alternatively heard yes and no from both sides. If yes, when will they be released, if ever? Is there video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon that we have seen?
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 12:42 AM	#7
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,097	Personally given my understanding of surveillance cameras, I can see no logical reason why anyone would have a camera pointed at that section of the building.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

28th January 2008, 02:50 PM	#2
Viper Daimao Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 498	If there were anymore or better videos of the plane hitting the pentagon, I think they would have been used in the trial right?

29th January 2008, 12:11 AM	#6
Par Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 2,769	Originally Posted by RedIbis Is there video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon that we have seen? Yes. There’s the clip recorded by the camera at the Pentagon helipad.

29th January 2008, 05:06 AM	#8
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by Par Yes. There’s the clip recorded by the camera at the Pentagon helipad. And it shows Flight 77? Wow, haven't seen that one. Please link.
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 05:15 AM	#9
twinstead Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Big corner office in NWO Towers Posts: 11,572	Originally Posted by RedIbis And it shows Flight 77? Wow, haven't seen that one. Please link. Not enough frame rate, hard to tell what it was. That's why we rely more on things like DNA and other physical evidence like plane debris, and eye witnesses.
	__________________ You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison Last edited by twinstead; 29th January 2008 at 05:15 AM.

29th January 2008, 05:17 AM	#10
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by twinstead Not enough frame rate, hard to tell what it was. That's why we rely more on things like DNA and other physical evidence like plane debris, and eye witnesses. Ok, just making sure I didn't miss a video that actually shows Flight 77.
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 05:20 AM	#11
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	Originally Posted by RedIbis Ok, just making sure I didn't miss a video that actually shows Flight 77. What do you expect? A camera with a high enough frame rate to show you the tail number of the plane? A camera zoomed in perfectly for you to see what was happening in that exact spot?
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	__________________ Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same? Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman

29th January 2008, 05:22 AM	#12
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by Disbelief What do you expect? A camera with a high enough frame rate to show you the tail number of the plane? A camera zoomed in perfectly for you to see what was happening in that exact spot? I don't have a particular expectation. The claim is that the video shows Flight 77. It doesn't.
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 05:27 AM	#13
Par Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 2,769	Originally Posted by RedIbis Is there video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon that we have seen? Originally Posted by Par Yes. There’s the clip recorded by the camera at the Pentagon helipad. Originally Posted by RedIbis Wow, haven't seen that one. I see. In that case, no, there isn’t a video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon that we have seen. Nevertheless, here is a video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlXR9OWE3pE

29th January 2008, 05:29 AM	#14
Par Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 2,769	Originally Posted by RedIbis The claim is that the video shows Flight 77. It doesn't. If you think that something other than Flight 77 hit the pentagon, then by all means present your evidence for the same.

29th January 2008, 05:29 AM	#15
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by Par I see. In that case, no, there isn’t a video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon that we have seen. Nevertheless, here is a video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlXR9OWE3pE That video shows something hitting the pentagon, but there is no way from this video that you can say that it's Flight 77.
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 05:30 AM	#16
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by Par If you think that something other than Flight 77 hit the pentagon, then by all means present your evidence for the same. Focus. This is about videos which show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon, please don't derail the discussion and ask me to speculate.
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 05:33 AM	#17
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	Originally Posted by RedIbis That video shows something hitting the pentagon, but there is no way from this video that you can say that it's Flight 77. Based upon the other physical evidence at the scene, yes you can say that it is Flight 77. Was there something else that you think struck the Pentagon on 9/11?
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	__________________ Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same? Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman Last edited by Disbelief; 29th January 2008 at 05:34 AM. Reason: 'k' key keeps sticking

29th January 2008, 05:35 AM	#18
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by Disbelief Based upon the other physical evidence at the scene, yes you can say that it is Flight 77. Was there something else that you think struck the Pentagon on 9/11? Not based on the video you can't. Please refer to Post #16 for the rest.
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 05:35 AM	#19
Par Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 2,769	Originally Posted by RedIbis Focus...please don't... ask me to speculate. Focus. I didn’t ask you to speculate.

29th January 2008, 05:37 AM	#20
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by Par Focus. I didn’t ask you to speculate. What do you call this, Quote: If you think that something other than Flight 77 hit the pentagon
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 05:39 AM	#21
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	Originally Posted by RedIbis Not based on the video you can't. Please refer to Post #16 for the rest. So, do you live in a vacuum? Do you think that they only relied on the video for evidence? You have to use ALL the evidence, not just cherry pick. Don't worry Red, I have seen you post enough to now that you would not answer the question. Originally Posted by RedIbis I don't have a particular expectation. The claim is that the video shows Flight 77. It doesn't. Obviously, you must have some expectation. You say that you can't put together the evidence to know that the video shows Flight 77, so you have to be expecting something more to prove it to you.
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	__________________ Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same? Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman

29th January 2008, 05:41 AM	#22
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by Disbelief So, do you live in a vacuum? Do you think that they only relied on the video for evidence? You have to use ALL the evidence, not just cherry pick. Don't worry Red, I have seen you post enough to now that you would not answer the question. Obviously, you must have some expectation. You say that you can't put together the evidence to know that the video shows Flight 77, so you have to be expecting something more to prove it to you. I'm not debating whether or not Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. I'm merely pointing out that the video does nothing to prove that it did. That video alone only proves that something hit the Pentagon, but cannot be used to substantiate the actual flight. BTW, what is the working theory on the contrail that is present in the video?
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 05:43 AM	#23
Par Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 2,769	Originally Posted by RedIbis Focus...please don't... ask me to speculate. Originally Posted by Par Focus. I didn’t ask you to speculate. Originally Posted by RedIbis What do you call this, Originally Posted by Par If you think that something other than Flight 77 hit the pentagon I call it a quotation that you have cynically truncated in order to alter its meaning. Here is the full context: Originally Posted by Par If you think that something other than Flight 77 hit the pentagon, then by all means present your evidence for the same.

29th January 2008, 05:44 AM	#24
DGM #4 Join Date: May 2007 Location: West of Northshore MA Posts: 14,300	Originally Posted by RedIbis Focus. This is about videos which show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon, please don't derail the discussion and ask me to speculate. There is video of "something" hitting the Pentagon. Now it's time to identify what it was. Should we turn to physical evidence or ignore that and try to guess?
	__________________ Join the team, Show us what your machine can do (or just contribute to a good cause)Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

29th January 2008, 05:44 AM	#25
Gravy Downsitting Citizen Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the argyle Posts: 17,136	Here's a little "focus" for people too confused to figure out that flight 77 hit the Pentagon. From the lists I've collected, 104 people directly saw the plane hit the Pentagon. 6 were nearly hit by the plane in front of the Pentagon. Several others were within 100-200 feet of the impact. 26 mentioned that it was an American Airlines jet. 39 others mentioned that it was a large jet/commercial airliner. 2 described a smaller corporate jet. 1 described a "commuter plane" but didn't mention the size. 7 said it was a Boeing 757. 8 witnesses were pilots. One witness was an Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower Chief. 2 witnesses were firefighters working on their truck at the Pentagon heliport. 4 made radio calls to inform emergency services that a plane had hit the Pentagon. 10 said the plane's flaps and landing gear were not deployed (1 thought landing gear struck a light pole). 16 mentioned seeing the plane hit light poles/trees, or were next to to the poles when it happened. Another 8 mentioned the light poles being knocked down: it's unknown if they saw them hit. 42 mentioned seeing aircraft debris. 4 mentioned seeing airline seats. 3 mentioned engine parts. 2 mentioned bodies still strapped into seats. 15 mentioned smelling or contacting aviation/jet fuel. 3 had vehicles damaged by light poles or aircraft debris. Several saw other occupied vehicles damaged. 3 took photographs of the aftermath. Many mentioned false alarm warnings of other incoming planes after the crash. One said "3-4 warnings." And of course, 0 saw a military aircraft or missile strike the Pentagon. 0 saw a plane narrowly miss the Pentagon and fly away. Mark Willams: "When Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped into their seats. The stench of charred flesh overwhelmed him. 'It was the worst thing you can imagine,' said Williams, whose squad from Fort Belvoir, Va., entered the building, less than four hours after the terrorist attack. 'I wanted to cry from the minute I walked in. But I have soldiers under me and I had to put my feelings aside.' "Source "I did see airplane seats and a corpse still strapped to one of the seats." –Capt. Jim Ingledue, Virginia Beach Fire Dept. Source Video: pilot Aziz ElHallan saw flight 77 hit Pentagon, shows aircraft debris that landed near his car. "Had I not hit the deck, the plane would have taken off my head."Source Reporter Mike Walter responds to conspiracists: Yes, I saw an American Airlines jet hit the Pentagon. "The part in question is the power supply for the emergency lights. ...I assure you it was Flight 77, AA 757 5BP." Any questions, "focus" group?
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29th January 2008, 05:47 AM	#26
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by Par I call it a quotation that you have cynically truncated in order to alter its meaning. Here is the full context: My apologies. Allow me to rephrase. That video does not show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon. That video cannot be used to substantiate that FLight 77 hit the Pentagon. No I will not speculate as to what I "think" hit the Pentagon.
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 05:48 AM	#27
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by Gravy Any questions, "focus" group? [/center] [/indent][/left] [/indent] Yeah, is that it? A scrap on the grass? ETA: Gravy, do you have a video of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon?
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) Last edited by RedIbis; 29th January 2008 at 05:55 AM.

29th January 2008, 05:58 AM	#28
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	Originally Posted by RedIbis I'm not debating whether or not Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. I'm merely pointing out that the video does nothing to prove that it did. That video alone only proves that something hit the Pentagon, but cannot be used to substantiate the actual flight. BTW, what is the working theory on the contrail that is present in the video? Once again, do you live in a vacuum? Why are you only cherry picing the video and not putting the rest of the evidence together? You substantiate the claim based on the eyewitness testimony, DNA evidence and physical evidence at the scene. Why disregard this?
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	__________________ Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same? Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman

29th January 2008, 06:04 AM	#29
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by Disbelief Once again, do you live in a vacuum? Why are you only cherry picing the video and not putting the rest of the evidence together? You substantiate the claim based on the eyewitness testimony, DNA evidence and physical evidence at the scene. Why disregard this? I'm trying to stick to the OP. There are no videos which show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon.
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 06:09 AM	#30
DGM #4 Join Date: May 2007 Location: West of Northshore MA Posts: 14,300	Originally Posted by Disbelief Once again, do you live in a vacuum? Why are you only cherry picing the video and not putting the rest of the evidence together? You substantiate the claim based on the eyewitness testimony, DNA evidence and physical evidence at the scene. Why disregard this? Most of Reds arguments have nothing to do with the big picture. The wording is the key. Pointless really.
	__________________ Join the team, Show us what your machine can do (or just contribute to a good cause)Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

29th January 2008, 06:10 AM	#31
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In a world lit only by fire. Posts: 17,894	Originally Posted by RedIbis My apologies. Allow me to rephrase. That video does not show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon. That video cannot be used to substantiate that FLight 77 hit the Pentagon. No I will not speculate as to what I "think" hit the Pentagon. RedIbis, a question, just out of curiosity and the desire to avoid unfounded speculation about your thinking on this. Let's suppose that there is no video in existence that clearly shows the identity of the object that hit the Pentagon. What conclusions would you draw from that information, either in isolation or in concert with all the other evidence available? Dave
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29th January 2008, 06:10 AM	#32
VespaGuy Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,035	Everybody here sees the silly game you are playing, Red. By your logic, I could ask for a video of Tom Brady throwing a touchdown pass. When one is shown I can simply say, "Well, that's surely somebody throwing a touchdown pass with a jersey that says Brady on the back, but he's wearing a helmet and I can't see his face. It could be anyone! Show me one of Tom Brady! Ha! You can't!" The video shows something hitting the Pentagon. The something is Flight 77 based on all of the evidence (see Gravy's post above). If it isn't Flight 77, please let us know what it is. (Go Pats!)
	__________________ "You are claiming it wasn't one. That is a positive claim." - Russell Pickering

29th January 2008, 06:10 AM	#33
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by DGM Most of Reds arguments have nothing to do with the big picture. The wording is the key. Pointless really. Specificity is the point.
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)

29th January 2008, 06:11 AM	#34
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	Originally Posted by RedIbis I'm trying to stick to the OP. There are no videos which show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon. No, you are once again playing games. With the body of evidence proving that Flight 77 hot the Pentagon, a video showing of something hitting the Pentagon leads to only one valid conclusion about that object. Anything else that can be dreamed up, does not fit the evidence and would only be speculation. Why do you fight every little piece of evidence, Red? To say that the video does not show Flight 77, you must have some theory in mind for what it does show. Of course, this must be corroborated by the rest of the evidence.
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	__________________ Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same? Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman

29th January 2008, 06:11 AM	#35
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers RedIbis, a question, just out of curiosity and the desire to avoid unfounded speculation about your thinking on this. Let's suppose that there is no video in existence that clearly shows the identity of the object that hit the Pentagon. What conclusions would you draw from that information, either in isolation or in concert with all the other evidence available? Dave Only that there is no video. Nothing else. Perhaps, Gravy's list is persuasive, which is quite possible. But I sure hope he doesn't pretend that the video is evidence.
RedIbis Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,829	__________________ (RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)