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Roadtoad · 31st January 2008, 11:14 PM

As has been noted before, I used to be a Christian. Now, I'm an Atheist.

Plumjam's latest bit of self-adulatory drama provoked this letter to my brother-in-law. Considering he's every bit as big a jerk as Plumjam, it seems to fit. If there are parallels to Plumjam beyond this, it's coincidental, but not a surprise.

D***,

You have often wondered of late why Peggy and I aren’t in church anymore. You have complained to Jonathan that we seem to have lost our faith, and that we’re no longer serving as an example to our sons.

Let me explain it to you plainly, and hopefully, we can do this without a lot of rancor on your part, or any emotional blackmail on B**’s part. We quit.

Peggy has been questioning her beliefs for some time now, much to my surprise, and a few months ago, I simply gave up altogether and declared myself an atheist. I no longer believe there is a god.

I’m going to spare you a discussion of Biblical contradictions, and I’m certainly not going to go into any great detail about Young Earth Creationism or even Intelligent Design has so soured me on the whole idea of anyone trying to balance the notions of Evolution and Religion. (Frankly, it can’t be done on either scale, and the very idea has become an affront. Sorry.) I’m also going to avoid any discussion at this point regarding logical fallacies in Holy Writ, as well as any discussion regarding the whole notion of Hell actually being an act of Mercy for those who choose to deny God. First of all, you won’t listen. You don’t give a rat’s ass what anyone has to say about that, and the very idea of discussing any of this causes you to close your mind to any contradicting idea.

Second, it wasn’t the thing which provoked us to question what it is we believe. It was your actions and B******’s actions which brought about the change.

I hadn’t thought much about my decision to leave the Church, really. It seemed to be a natural outgrowth of a lot of what I’ve been reading over the past few years, as well as an extension of friendships I’ve made. Except that Peggy was talking to her cousin, R****, this past weekend, and as they were talking, she said something that stuck with me.

She told R****, “We tithed over the years, off and on, simply as best we could, but for all the promises that were made to us about that, not one came true. It all seemed to be a lie, and I just can’t believe that it works anymore.”

I heard that and thought, “Whoa.”

She talked a lot about a friend we’d met who was here on business from Hawaii, and the impression she made on her. Yes, she’s not a believer, but she’s happy, she’s respected, and she treats other people in a manner that shows not only her incredible self respect, but respect for others. If there was ever a reason to visit the Islands, I’d say we’ve been given one.

I keep thinking also of another friend, who works for Microsoft. He’s probably one of the kindest people I’ve met, as is his wife and daughters. It’s pretty rare for me to meet people and on the first contact, discover they have so much in common, and yet are so different, that their presence strengthens me in my life. I’m honored to spend time with people like this.

These are just two people. There are others. They are kind. They are generous. They are gracious. Oh, and they’re atheists. (Probably should have mentioned that first so you could ready your put-downs as I went down their other positive traits.)

It’s like this, D***: For all your claims that Jesus’ presence in your life makes you a more compassionate person, your actions make that out to be a lie, and demonstrate, if anything, that Jesus’ sacrifice means little, if anything, to you.

Let’s start with some of the more obvious ones.

First, for years I’ve asked you to quit calling the boys “Jonthebrat” and “Bratthew.” I’ve told you to never, ever call my wife “Piggy.” It’s insulting. I find it offensive. I’ve tried everything short of violence to get through to you that it’s an affront, and you ignore me. The only reason you aren’t dressed in plastic and wearing a second smile from my Buck knife is because Peggy’s begged me to not beat your sorry ass to a broken, bloody pulp. When I’ve told you this offends me, you blow it off saying that I’m being hypersensitive.

Really? I know men who are far less “sensitive” than me who would have broken your jaw for a whole lot less. Most people find that kind of thing rude, vulgar, and childish, not to mention more than a little degrading. B******, of all people, ought to be a bit more sensitive to my feelings on this, but she shares in your assessment. I don’t like my sister one bit. I avoid my own sister as much as possible, given her nasty attitude towards others. But I’ve gotten into fights when someone decided to belittle her, and would probably do so again if the need arose, simply because she is my sister. That your wife allows you to continue to belittle her sister as she does is offensive. Makes me wonder just what kind of “love” she’s showing when she allows you to call her “Piggy.”

Let’s take another point: Matt has decided he’s now a Wiccan. It’s not my choice, but rather than fight with him about it, and drive my son from me, I’ve decided to simply ask questions about what it is he believes, and why he chooses to believe it. Seems to have a better effect on him. He’s still a Wiccan, but at least he’s working towards some far more serious knowledge about what it is he’s getting into. Who knows? He might actually decide the more he learns, the less appealing it is to him.

But, rather than take a more reasoned approach, you and B***** have gotten into emotional blackmail over this. B******’s declaration that she cries herself to sleep every night over Matt’s salvation has had the opposite effect: Matt wants less and less to do with the two of you. And your attempts at “cult busting” have been about as welcome as a ham at a Seder. (Note to Loss Leader: D*** is a converted Jew, calling himself a "Messianic Jew," so this wasn't an attempt to insult you. There was a reason behind it.) If you had ever taken a few minutes to listen to him, and what’s pissing him off, you might have taken some time and just shut up about it. Instead, with your barrage of sanctified verbal vomit, you’re driving him away. Do the rest of us a favor, and SHUT THE F*** UP!

Let’s try another point, since we’re on the subject of the boys: You have, over the years, told my younger two sons just how stupid I am, and how I don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to anything from the movies I chose to let them watch as little kids, to what they could eat when they came to your house. I didn’t appreciate having to hold my kids and comfort them because you said it was okay for them to watch “Terminator 2,” leaving them with nightmares and horrors of the refrigerator becoming a cop and trying to kill them. Nor did I appreciate it when you told Jon that I wouldn’t toss him out if he didn’t get a job, even though I made it clear that I would. I also didn’t appreciate your attempts to undercut me when I did toss him out because he followed your incredibly foul advice. You further undercut me by taking him in, then belittling me for forcing you to make this “sacrifice.” (Hell, why didn’t you just shut up and tell Jon to quit whining about it and GET A DAMN JOB, which is what he ultimately wound up doing?)

Seems to me this smacks of ignoring one of the Ten Commandments, particularly he one about honoring your Mother and Father. Got a hot flash for you, Ace: the reason Peggy and I have had so many discipline problems with the boys over the years is because of YOUR interference. And you claim your actions are “Christian”? Who are you kidding?

As to my older sons, you demanded to be welcomed at Chris and Kasey’s wedding, and you seem to think you’re owed respect from James and Maddie. Sorry, but those two young men are well aware of your actions, and the degradation you’ve heaped on Peggy and me over they years. If the only time you want to be involved in their lives is when you see some benefit to yourself, you’re not being Christian, you’re an opportunist. The fact that you were in Ellensburg, WA, while Chris was a student at CWU, and you and B****** couldn’t even be bothered to make a phone call and stop by to say hello, (which you stupidly admitted to when Chris and Kasey came down for a visit, a trip they could scarcely afford, and during which you insisted on having some time with them), underscores the whole point. If that weren’t enough, you and B****** seem to think it’s okay to demand time from James when he’s still trying to recover from his injuries from his time in the Army. He’s a new father, D***. He doesn’t have time for you or for your crap. (And if you even think of coming up with an insulting name for any of my grandkids, you’d better be packing heat.)

The final degradation? B*** and D****** have been having a hard time of late, and with D******’ medical problems, B*** wound up moving into your home for a few days.

You have spent an incredible amount of time bitching and whining about how much it’s going to cost you if B*** winds up moving into your home on a permanent basis. You self-centered, narcissistic idiot! Considering everything that our father-in-law has done over the years for all of us, I would have thought you would have viewed this as a privilege to take him into your home. Instead, you have decided that it’s too much of a burden for you and B******, and that it would cramp your life too much. You make twice the money I do, and you’re complaining about the “burden”? Hell, your house is paid for, or at least it was. B*** moving into your home is a “burden”? To me, it would have been an honor.

You have whined for years that the State of California won’t promote you to management, but I don’t see anything in your actions that show you’d make a good manager. If anything, your personality traits at home would be a prime motivation for me, were I in management, to try to get your terminated. Frankly, the fact that you had to fight to become the middle management douche that you are today suggests strongly to me that your rather appalling personality flaws have been front and center at work as much as they have been at home. They aren’t promoting you further not because you’re a Christian; they aren’t promoting you further because you’re a bigoted jackass who belittles gays, lesbians, liberals, non-Christians, the physically disabled, anyone of color, and your own family. Get a clue: No one wants to work for a jerk, and in this day and age, promoting a jerk to management is a good way to get your ass sued.

Frankly, your attitude towards Peggy and me because we’ve been divorced makes me wonder who else you’ve chosen to insult in your life. I’m still floored by your nasty remarks about the circumstances of our respective divorces, particularly since they both happened long before you entered our lives, and you had no knowledge of our prior spouses before you married B**.

See, D***, there’s a lot of difference between you and an atheist. I am barely an acquaintance of James Randi, yet this man, who has had a tremendous positive effect on our society, (which you’d know if you’d ever get your head out from between your cheeks), treated my wife with incredible respect. That was something I appreciated.

Most atheists treat my wife with respect. You don’t. If anything, you’ve treated the woman I love with incredible contempt. Why would I want to associate with you?

For that matter, what in your behavior demonstrates anything “Christlike?” Not one damned thing.

I’m done, D***. I don’t want you at my house, I don’t want to be in yours. As much as possible, I want you out of my life. I’m clearing a room for my father-in-law, where he’ll be a welcome part of my family. And when my sons realize what kind of a person you really are, maybe they’ll come home and recognize that their dad really wasn’t so stupid after all.

And if this means I’m doomed to Hell, hey, any Heaven that would want someone as creepy as you can’t really be worth shooting for, can it?

devnull · 31st January 2008, 11:41 PM

ouch!

nicely done

Mobyseven · 1st February 2008, 12:06 AM

As always, very well put. Straight from the part of the brain we symbolically associate with the heart, I say.

Oroborus · 1st February 2008, 01:06 AM

Not to be pedantic but I noticed "to try to get your terminated".

I applaud your letter if you infact thing it's going to make a difference on this guy (who seems atleast) to be an utter buffoon and jackass. I can understand your need to vent this righteous anger but it might be easier in the long run to just cut them out of your life without a word (if possible). But I'm sure you know whats best when it comes down to it.

In either case, a good read.

Complexity · 1st February 2008, 04:28 AM

Roadtoad, I think I love you.

Roadtoad · 1st February 2008, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by Oroborus

Not to be pedantic but I noticed "to try to get your terminated".

I applaud your letter if you infact thing it's going to make a difference on this guy (who seems atleast) to be an utter buffoon and jackass. I can understand your need to vent this righteous anger but it might be easier in the long run to just cut them out of your life without a word (if possible). But I'm sure you know whats best when it comes down to it.

In either case, a good read.

I probably should get his backside fired, Oroborus, simply because he has the authority to make some innocent person's life miserable. Unfortunately, doing so would easily get me sued. My b-i-l is exceptionally vindictive, (hence the blocking of names). He's two years from retiring from state service, so maybe, just maybe, that would be just long enough to put up with.

I've been refusing to go to their house for any reason over the past many months. Peggy's gone alone for family gatherings, while I've used the excuse that I had a truck to work on. Seems to work for now. I'd simply rather she cut people from her life who treat her in a disrespectful manner, and if that includes her idiot sister, so be it.

Cainkane1 · 1st February 2008, 05:41 AM

Good letter. Straight and to the point. He deserved every unkind word and I hope he had the guts to finish it from beginning to end. Some of the worst people I have ever had the misfortune to meet wouldn't miss church for anything in this world. I'm an atheist myself and thats the way I'm staying.

I do know of a few good Christians. My mothers first cousin had a Baptist mission in Guatamala when two little girls suddenly became orphaned. They bus their parents had been riding in lost its brakes and went over a cliff. They were killed leaving the girls with no one. This pastor adopted these little Indian girls even though he knew no Spanish. The last I saw of them they had been properly educated on a college level. Thats a good christian and a good person. I'd do the same thing. He did it because he had a compassionate nature not because he was a Christian.

A Christian Sceptic · 1st February 2008, 05:59 AM

So - is this a letter to your wife's sisters husband?

What are your goals with that letter? To vent after holding your tongue for so long? To cut off all ties with these people?

That letter will definitely do the trick. I doubt you'll have much of a relationship left (it doesn't sound like you have much aleady) but plenty of hostile feelings going both ways after that letter.

It sounded like at the end you have some of your kids living with this guy? If that's true you might want to assume they will hear of this letter filtered through this guy and you might want to try to forsee what sort of effect that will have with your sons.

sphenisc · 1st February 2008, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

I probably should get his backside fired, Oroborus, simply because he has the authority to make some innocent person's life miserable. Unfortunately, doing so would easily get me sued. My b-i-l is exceptionally vindictive, (hence the blocking of names). He's two years from retiring from state service, so maybe, just maybe, that would be just long enough to put up with.

I've been refusing to go to their house for any reason over the past many months. Peggy's gone alone for family gatherings, while I've used the excuse that I had a truck to work on. Seems to work for now. I'd simply rather she cut people from her life who treat her in a disrespectful manner, and if that includes her idiot sister, so be it.

You've missed blocking your sister's name at one point - perhaps a mod could edit?

LibraryLady · 1st February 2008, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by sphenisc

You've missed blocking your sister's name at one point - perhaps a mod could edit?

I usually don't mod at work but I made an exception.

Roadie, could you write a letter to my brother, please?

Walk The Line · 1st February 2008, 06:40 AM

This brother-in-law sounds more like an immature teenager rather than an adult.

coalesce · 1st February 2008, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by A Christian Sceptic

So - is this a letter to your wife's sisters husband?

What are your goals with that letter? To vent after holding your tongue for so long? To cut off all ties with these people?

That letter will definitely do the trick. I doubt you'll have much of a relationship left (it doesn't sound like you have much aleady) but plenty of hostile feelings going both ways after that letter.

It sounded like at the end you have some of your kids living with this guy? If that's true you might want to assume they will hear of this letter filtered through this guy and you might want to try to forsee what sort of effect that will have with your sons.

Easy way around that: send the letters to the kids' workplaces, so that they get the letter unfiltered. Then there's no way anyone else can put their own spin on it.

Insofar as anything being left of the relationship after the letter being read: it doesn't sound like there was anything worth saving, so what's the loss. I doubt if Roadtoad's in-laws will accept any of the criticisms in the letter. In all likelihood, they will continue going about behaving in a holier-than-thou fashion and think that the disingenuous practice of their faith will justify them. Rotsa ruck on that one.

Michael

Beth · 1st February 2008, 07:29 AM

Roadtoad,

I know you've been through some hard times lately, but I'm really struck by the change in tone of your writings over the past few years. When you considered yourself a Christian, you seemed a kinder friendlier roadtoad. I don't know if the change is due to your loss of faith, the concommitant loss of a community to turn to for support, or just the very hard times you've been through, but I wish you well with whatever you do and I hope your hard times are over soon.

As far as your b-i-l, he sounds like exactly the sort of mean-spirited and judgemental person that are drawn to fundamentalist beliefs of all stripes. The world has too many of them and too few like you. I hope writing and posting your letter was helpful to you, but unless you think sending it to him will improve your relationships with those you actually love, I wouldn't advise it. It gives him a dose of his own back, that is true, but do you want to be like him?

A Christian Sceptic · 1st February 2008, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by roadtoad

The only reason you aren’t dressed in plastic and wearing a second smile from my Buck knife is because Peggy’s begged me to not beat your sorry ass to a broken, bloody pulp.

You might also want to think twice about incuding any references to violence and murder in the letter also.

A Christian Sceptic · 1st February 2008, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by coalesce

Insofar as anything being left of the relationship after the letter being read: it doesn't sound like there was anything worth saving, so what's the loss.

Pouring gasoline on a fire never puts out the fire and very often does extra unintended damage to everything (and everyone) around it. Since this guy isn't even a blood relative of either him (roadtoad) or his wife the damage that will be done on top of the other guys actions don't seem that worthwhile. The problems will still be there except amplified. The damage done isn't going to be with just this guy, but roadtoads wife's sister and possibly roadtoads own kids. What if the sister's relationship with them is damaged with this, and in a year the guy dies or they get a divorce? Well - the sister who is a blood relative will still probably have to be in contact with roadtoad, may still harbor illwill, while this guy gets to go merrily on his way never to be heard from again.

Fnord · 1st February 2008, 08:00 AM

HEAR! HEAR!

Now, put all the names back,
and put it in a full-page add
in your brother-in-law's favorite paper.

JWideman · 1st February 2008, 08:20 AM

I really think you should say these things to his face.

Susan Gerbic · 1st February 2008, 08:33 AM

still not sure who is who. Is Peggy your wife or your sister who is married to this jerk?

I can't believe he calls her Piggy, that would break the relationship without anything else being mentioned.

If you haven't sent the letter yet, I would cut out about 2/3 of it. I would leave in the part where you mention that he belittles just about everyone (use all the examples where he has done this) I would remove all the details and violence you can. Who knows someone may end this man's life for their own reasons and you will be blamed. If this was an Agatha Christie, someone would end his life in just the way you described in the letter and let you take the blame. besides the violence is distracting to the otherwise good letter.

I would simply state that his actions are not what the majority of the world would find Christian and give reasons. The I would say that for various reasons, including watching his Christian actions you have become Atheist.

For the most part we don't chose to become Atheist but are led to it by reason, many of us were stressed knowing that we were losing faith. Then when it happens we are happier than ever.

Susan

fuelair · 1st February 2008, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

[i]?

Excellent letter - it sounds like D is a royal pile of feces and got called on it. Probably should have been sooner (as you noted) but sometimes we do try to hold things together longer because family is involved. Congratulations on getting your shoes a bit cleaner!! Best to you and family!!

(feel free to post his response (if any and if funny!!))

fuelair · 1st February 2008, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Good letter. Straight and to the point. He deserved every unkind word and I hope he had the guts to finish it from beginning to end. Some of the worst people I have ever had the misfortune to meet wouldn't miss church for anything in this world. I'm an atheist myself and thats the way I'm staying.

I do know of a few good Christians. My mothers first cousin had a Baptist mission in Guatamala when two little girls suddenly became orphaned. They bus their parents had been riding in lost its brakes and went over a cliff. They were killed leaving the girls with no one. This pastor adopted these little Indian girls even though he knew no Spanish. The last I saw of them they had been properly educated on a college level. Thats a good christian and a good person. I'd do the same thing. He did it because he had a compassionate nature not because he was a Christian.

There are wonderful Christians, wonderful Jews, wonderful Muslims (I have known and been friends with some of each). The thing is, religion will no more keep a good person from being a good person than atheism or agnosticism will (the good side) but equally, it will no more make a bad person good thatn atheism or agnosticism will (the bad side). Some people who are religious seem to have difficulty with that. Life is tough.

kedo1981 · 1st February 2008, 09:07 AM

We all know people like this from all walks of life, Christian and not.
Is it worse when a Christian is like this?
Out of every church with an couple hundred members there will always be a handful or so, so tell me “Christian Skeptic” what do non jerk Christians think of, do about, say about, their fellow believers who have such personality disorders.
Will such people be rewarded with salvation?

Beth · 1st February 2008, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by kedo1981

We all know people like this from all walks of life, Christian and not.
Is it worse when a Christian is like this?

I think it is. Christians who are mean-spirited and judgemental are failing to live up to the values they espouse - i.e. love and forgiveness for everyone. Likewise, I think dogmatic skeptics are worse than dogmatic non-skeptics because I think a core value of skepticism is being non-dogmatic and open to having assumptions challenged.

Of course, we all fail to live up to our ideals at times.

A Christian Sceptic · 1st February 2008, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by kedo1981

We all know people like this from all walks of life, Christian and not.
Is it worse when a Christian is like this?

Are there varying degrees and levels of hypocrites? Is a Christian Hypocrite worse than a Buhddist, Muslim, Jewish, Diest, Panthiest, or Athiest Hypocrite?

Quote:

Out of every church with an couple hundred members there will always be a handful or so, so tell me “Christian Skeptic” what do non jerk Christians think of, do about, say about, their fellow believers who have such personality disorders.
Will such people be rewarded with salvation?

God only knows, I only hope - for hypocrites and non-hypocrites alike.

Roadtoad · 2nd February 2008, 09:33 AM

I've still got the letter in the laptop. No, I haven't sent it, and yes, I'm seriously thinking of stating it in person. And while this will scorch out what remains of a relationship with this man, I'm thinking I wouldn't lose all that much.

My third son, Jon, is living with his aunt and uncle, but he's also looking for his own apartment at this time. Once he's moved out, we'll see about whether or not it's a smart thing to rip into my b-i-l. (Actually, SC, I owe you. You're right about making any threat of violence, and "the genius" would probably view that as actionable.) And, yes, I'm rather devoid of a community connection right now, but I've been without one for some time, particularly since we left the last church where we had membership, with a pastor who allowed the older, bigger kids to bully my younger sons. (They tried it once with the older two and got flattened.) The pastor at that church said I shouldn't interfere in this, it would make my younger sons tougher. (Sure. Jon's working to become a firefighter, and doing quite well with his classes. I can see how he's become such a WIMP...)

Things have been harder over the past few years. The latest nonsense is that Peterbilt is making multiple recommendations on how I'm supposed to drive. They offer no courses, they offer no specifics based on downloaded info from the computer, (which, oddly enough, they didn't bother to download in the first place), and much of this is simply a scattershot attempt to try and avoid any responsibility for what happened. Interestingly enough, we got some information regarding torque specs on a 379. It makes MY case, and undercuts theirs. (What's wrong with this picture?)

LibraryLady · 2nd February 2008, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

And, yes, I'm rather devoid of a community connection right now, but I've been without one for some time, particularly since we left the last church where we had membership, with a pastor who allowed the older, bigger kids to bully my younger sons.

This is demonstratively untrue. You have a community.

Roadtoad · 2nd February 2008, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by LibraryLady

This is demonstratively untrue. You have a community.

Online, yes. But I could wish I could spend some time with other skeptics more often, ideally face to face.

petra10 · 2nd February 2008, 11:02 AM

Wow just wow Roadtoad, please do sent this letter.Although I do agree you should take out some of the voilent threats.
Please also let us know his reply.I also think you should have done this years ago.

well done.

XBoxWarrior · 2nd February 2008, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

As has been noted before, I used to be a Christian. Now, I'm an Atheist.

Plumjam's latest bit of self-adulatory drama provoked this letter to my brother-in-law. Considering he's every bit as big a jerk as Plumjam, it seems to fit. If there are parallels to Plumjam beyond this, it's coincidental, but not a surprise.

D***,

You have often wondered of late why Peggy and I aren’t in church anymore. You have complained to Jonathan that we seem to have lost our faith, and that we’re no longer serving as an example to our sons.

Let me explain it to you plainly, and hopefully, we can do this without a lot of rancor on your part, or any emotional blackmail on B**’s part. We quit.

Peggy has been questioning her beliefs for some time now, much to my surprise, and a few months ago, I simply gave up altogether and declared myself an atheist. I no longer believe there is a god.

I’m going to spare you a discussion of Biblical contradictions, and I’m certainly not going to go into any great detail about Young Earth Creationism or even Intelligent Design has so soured me on the whole idea of anyone trying to balance the notions of Evolution and Religion. (Frankly, it can’t be done on either scale, and the very idea has become an affront. Sorry.) I’m also going to avoid any discussion at this point regarding logical fallacies in Holy Writ, as well as any discussion regarding the whole notion of Hell actually being an act of Mercy for those who choose to deny God. First of all, you won’t listen. You don’t give a rat’s ass what anyone has to say about that, and the very idea of discussing any of this causes you to close your mind to any contradicting idea.

Second, it wasn’t the thing which provoked us to question what it is we believe. It was your actions and B******’s actions which brought about the change.

I hadn’t thought much about my decision to leave the Church, really. It seemed to be a natural outgrowth of a lot of what I’ve been reading over the past few years, as well as an extension of friendships I’ve made. Except that Peggy was talking to her cousin, R****, this past weekend, and as they were talking, she said something that stuck with me.

She told R****, “We tithed over the years, off and on, simply as best we could, but for all the promises that were made to us about that, not one came true. It all seemed to be a lie, and I just can’t believe that it works anymore.”

I heard that and thought, “Whoa.”

She talked a lot about a friend we’d met who was here on business from Hawaii, and the impression she made on her. Yes, she’s not a believer, but she’s happy, she’s respected, and she treats other people in a manner that shows not only her incredible self respect, but respect for others. If there was ever a reason to visit the Islands, I’d say we’ve been given one.

I keep thinking also of another friend, who works for Microsoft. He’s probably one of the kindest people I’ve met, as is his wife and daughters. It’s pretty rare for me to meet people and on the first contact, discover they have so much in common, and yet are so different, that their presence strengthens me in my life. I’m honored to spend time with people like this.

These are just two people. There are others. They are kind. They are generous. They are gracious. Oh, and they’re atheists. (Probably should have mentioned that first so you could ready your put-downs as I went down their other positive traits.)

It’s like this, D***: For all your claims that Jesus’ presence in your life makes you a more compassionate person, your actions make that out to be a lie, and demonstrate, if anything, that Jesus’ sacrifice means little, if anything, to you.

Let’s start with some of the more obvious ones.

First, for years I’ve asked you to quit calling the boys “Jonthebrat” and “Bratthew.” I’ve told you to never, ever call my wife “Piggy.” It’s insulting. I find it offensive. I’ve tried everything short of violence to get through to you that it’s an affront, and you ignore me. The only reason you aren’t dressed in plastic and wearing a second smile from my Buck knife is because Peggy’s begged me to not beat your sorry ass to a broken, bloody pulp. When I’ve told you this offends me, you blow it off saying that I’m being hypersensitive.

Really? I know men who are far less “sensitive” than me who would have broken your jaw for a whole lot less. Most people find that kind of thing rude, vulgar, and childish, not to mention more than a little degrading. B******, of all people, ought to be a bit more sensitive to my feelings on this, but she shares in your assessment. I don’t like my sister one bit. I avoid my own sister as much as possible, given her nasty attitude towards others. But I’ve gotten into fights when someone decided to belittle her, and would probably do so again if the need arose, simply because she is my sister. That your wife allows you to continue to belittle her sister as she does is offensive. Makes me wonder just what kind of “love” she’s showing when she allows you to call her “Piggy.”

Let’s take another point: Matt has decided he’s now a Wiccan. It’s not my choice, but rather than fight with him about it, and drive my son from me, I’ve decided to simply ask questions about what it is he believes, and why he chooses to believe it. Seems to have a better effect on him. He’s still a Wiccan, but at least he’s working towards some far more serious knowledge about what it is he’s getting into. Who knows? He might actually decide the more he learns, the less appealing it is to him.

But, rather than take a more reasoned approach, you and B***** have gotten into emotional blackmail over this. B******’s declaration that she cries herself to sleep every night over Matt’s salvation has had the opposite effect: Matt wants less and less to do with the two of you. And your attempts at “cult busting” have been about as welcome as a ham at a Seder. (Note to Loss Leader: D*** is a converted Jew, calling himself a "Messianic Jew," so this wasn't an attempt to insult you. There was a reason behind it.) If you had ever taken a few minutes to listen to him, and what’s pissing him off, you might have taken some time and just shut up about it. Instead, with your barrage of sanctified verbal vomit, you’re driving him away. Do the rest of us a favor, and SHUT THE F*** UP!

Let’s try another point, since we’re on the subject of the boys: You have, over the years, told my younger two sons just how stupid I am, and how I don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to anything from the movies I chose to let them watch as little kids, to what they could eat when they came to your house. I didn’t appreciate having to hold my kids and comfort them because you said it was okay for them to watch “Terminator 2,” leaving them with nightmares and horrors of the refrigerator becoming a cop and trying to kill them. Nor did I appreciate it when you told Jon that I wouldn’t toss him out if he didn’t get a job, even though I made it clear that I would. I also didn’t appreciate your attempts to undercut me when I did toss him out because he followed your incredibly foul advice. You further undercut me by taking him in, then belittling me for forcing you to make this “sacrifice.” (Hell, why didn’t you just shut up and tell Jon to quit whining about it and GET A DAMN JOB, which is what he ultimately wound up doing?)

Seems to me this smacks of ignoring one of the Ten Commandments, particularly he one about honoring your Mother and Father. Got a hot flash for you, Ace: the reason Peggy and I have had so many discipline problems with the boys over the years is because of YOUR interference. And you claim your actions are “Christian”? Who are you kidding?

As to my older sons, you demanded to be welcomed at Chris and Kasey’s wedding, and you seem to think you’re owed respect from James and Maddie. Sorry, but those two young men are well aware of your actions, and the degradation you’ve heaped on Peggy and me over they years. If the only time you want to be involved in their lives is when you see some benefit to yourself, you’re not being Christian, you’re an opportunist. The fact that you were in Ellensburg, WA, while Chris was a student at CWU, and you and B****** couldn’t even be bothered to make a phone call and stop by to say hello, (which you stupidly admitted to when Chris and Kasey came down for a visit, a trip they could scarcely afford, and during which you insisted on having some time with them), underscores the whole point. If that weren’t enough, you and B****** seem to think it’s okay to demand time from James when he’s still trying to recover from his injuries from his time in the Army. He’s a new father, D***. He doesn’t have time for you or for your crap. (And if you even think of coming up with an insulting name for any of my grandkids, you’d better be packing heat.)

The final degradation? B*** and D****** have been having a hard time of late, and with D******’ medical problems, B*** wound up moving into your home for a few days.

You have spent an incredible amount of time bitching and whining about how much it’s going to cost you if B*** winds up moving into your home on a permanent basis. You self-centered, narcissistic idiot! Considering everything that our father-in-law has done over the years for all of us, I would have thought you would have viewed this as a privilege to take him into your home. Instead, you have decided that it’s too much of a burden for you and B******, and that it would cramp your life too much. You make twice the money I do, and you’re complaining about the “burden”? Hell, your house is paid for, or at least it was. B*** moving into your home is a “burden”? To me, it would have been an honor.

You have whined for years that the State of California won’t promote you to management, but I don’t see anything in your actions that show you’d make a good manager. If anything, your personality traits at home would be a prime motivation for me, were I in management, to try to get your terminated. Frankly, the fact that you had to fight to become the middle management douche that you are today suggests strongly to me that your rather appalling personality flaws have been front and center at work as much as they have been at home. They aren’t promoting you further not because you’re a Christian; they aren’t promoting you further because you’re a bigoted jackass who belittles gays, lesbians, liberals, non-Christians, the physically disabled, anyone of color, and your own family. Get a clue: No one wants to work for a jerk, and in this day and age, promoting a jerk to management is a good way to get your ass sued.

Frankly, your attitude towards Peggy and me because we’ve been divorced makes me wonder who else you’ve chosen to insult in your life. I’m still floored by your nasty remarks about the circumstances of our respective divorces, particularly since they both happened long before you entered our lives, and you had no knowledge of our prior spouses before you married B**.

See, D***, there’s a lot of difference between you and an atheist. I am barely an acquaintance of James Randi, yet this man, who has had a tremendous positive effect on our society, (which you’d know if you’d ever get your head out from between your cheeks), treated my wife with incredible respect. That was something I appreciated.

Most atheists treat my wife with respect. You don’t. If anything, you’ve treated the woman I love with incredible contempt. Why would I want to associate with you?

For that matter, what in your behavior demonstrates anything “Christlike?” Not one damned thing.

I’m done, D***. I don’t want you at my house, I don’t want to be in yours. As much as possible, I want you out of my life. I’m clearing a room for my father-in-law, where he’ll be a welcome part of my family. And when my sons realize what kind of a person you really are, maybe they’ll come home and recognize that their dad really wasn’t so stupid after all.

And if this means I’m doomed to Hell, hey, any Heaven that would want someone as creepy as you can’t really be worth shooting for, can it?

Nonsense.........and a waste of bandwidth.

Just kick 'em in the shins, and to bugger off.

p.s. nice rant

Hokulele · 2nd February 2008, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Online, yes. But I could wish I could spend some time with other skeptics more often, ideally face to face.

Now that I have your contact info, hopefully we can meet up on the west coast more often.

godless dave · 2nd February 2008, 12:28 PM

Excellent letter. Of course, all he'll see is "attack attack attack I'm an atheist and I hate Christians!"

It's not his hypocrisy that makes him an *******. It's that he claims that he is more moral than you while being a complete douchebag that makes him an *******.

And why is it always the people who rail against "liberals" who let little kids watch violent R-rated movies, undercut the authority of parents, won't take care of their elderly relatives, and refrain from using tough love on adult relatives who try to freeload? I thought those were all "liberal" behaviors.

sthomson · 2nd February 2008, 12:36 PM

As for community, have you thought about Unitarian Universalist? It highly depends on the congregation, of course, but I know that some are full of atheists and agnostics looking for the sense of community they had at a Christian church.

halofish2000 · 2nd February 2008, 01:09 PM

Sorry to hear you going through this with family. It is bad enough as is but family definitely makes it tougher. You seem to have a lot of patience and compassion. These are gifts that I wish more people had. On the flip side, you are to stand up and protect your family, regardless if you are a Christian or not. Be angry and sin not. Hard, I know...but it can be done.
We had a very difficult time in my family anout 15 years ago. I think most people can vouch for their own. Simply put, a church has zero authority on what one does once the meeting has adjourned. There is NO law of tithing and no law of giving to the church. I was able to finally help my older brother understand this. Not before he was extorted thousands. If a church tells you that we are commanded to give to them turn and go to the nearest Mickey D's, drive to the beach and enjoy the view. I don't know if everything in that letter needs to be said. Would feel good to ....for a while maybe.

Gilmar · 2nd February 2008, 01:51 PM

Even if you don't send it in this form, it's good to vent and get your thoughts down on paper (or a Word doc). Makes me glad I don't have people like that in my life.

halofish2000 · 2nd February 2008, 01:54 PM

I remember venting on my mother-in-law. Felt good. Now she is my Ex-mother-in-law.

Roadtoad · 2nd February 2008, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by halofish2000

Sorry to hear you going through this with family. It is bad enough as is but family definitely makes it tougher. You seem to have a lot of patience and compassion. These are gifts that I wish more people had. On the flip side, you are to stand up and protect your family, regardless if you are a Christian or not. Be angry and sin not. Hard, I know...but it can be done.
We had a very difficult time in my family anout 15 years ago. I think most people can vouch for their own. Simply put, a church has zero authority on what one does once the meeting has adjourned. There is NO law of tithing and no law of giving to the church. I was able to finally help my older brother understand this. Not before he was extorted thousands. If a church tells you that we are commanded to give to them turn and go to the nearest Mickey D's, drive to the beach and enjoy the view. I don't know if everything in that letter needs to be said. Would feel good to ....for a while maybe.

I like you, Halofish. You're decent.

PAC · 2nd February 2008, 05:41 PM

In my family it is my sister and her husband and my wife's sister and her husband. They make our lives difficult. They hurt us. I'd like to tell them all that I think. But I do not want to end my relationship with my sister (who became a fundamentalist only a few years ago) and my wife can not handle the thought of living without her sister. In my family I would be cast as the bad guy no matter how deserving they might be of my anger.

Think about the letter, hold on to it, read it in a couple of weeks. Once sent it can never be taken back. If you should regret it then you will only hurt yourself.

I am reminded of a lesson from a former boss. He told me that getting angry with people like this is like punching jello. You get all worked up, you strike,
you pull your hand back and the jello simply returns to its previous state.
Nothing changes, you're exhausted, was it worth it?

I have done some things in my life where I was absolutely right. I had every reason to do so. Yet, the regret only builds as my life wears on. Is it fair?
No. Sometimes the strength to make more modest attempts to work things out, is the better choice. I would have never said this in my twenties, thirties, forties, but now it seems to be an option.

I hope you find that path that is best for you. Good luck! If there is any comfort in knowing that others understand, I can say that my wife and I do.

PixyMisa · 2nd February 2008, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by PAC

I am reminded of a lesson from a former boss. He told me that getting angry with people like this is like punching jello. You get all worked up, you strike, you pull your hand back and the jello simply returns to its previous state. Nothing changes, you're exhausted, was it worth it?

I tried this, and now I have jello on my ceiling. Thanks a bunch.

PAC · 2nd February 2008, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by PixyMisa

I tried this, and now I have jello on my ceiling. Thanks a bunch.

Sorry, I should have recommended making the jello with knox. It holds up a lot better. Just curious, was it strawberry or lime?

fuelair · 2nd February 2008, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

I've still got the letter in the laptop. No, I haven't sent it, and yes, I'm seriously thinking of stating it in person. And while this will scorch out what remains of a relationship with this man, I'm thinking I wouldn't lose all that much.

My third son, Jon, is living with his aunt and uncle, but he's also looking for his own apartment at this time. Once he's moved out, we'll see about whether or not it's a smart thing to rip into my b-i-l. (Actually, SC, I owe you. You're right about making any threat of violence, and "the genius" would probably view that as actionable.) And, yes, I'm rather devoid of a community connection right now, but I've been without one for some time, particularly since we left the last church where we had membership, with a pastor who allowed the older, bigger kids to bully my younger sons. (They tried it once with the older two and got flattened.) The pastor at that church said I shouldn't interfere in this, it would make my younger sons tougher. (Sure. Jon's working to become a firefighter, and doing quite well with his classes. I can see how he's become such a WIMP...)

Things have been harder over the past few years. The latest nonsense is that Peterbilt is making multiple recommendations on how I'm supposed to drive. They offer no courses, they offer no specifics based on downloaded info from the computer, (which, oddly enough, they didn't bother to download in the first place), and much of this is simply a scattershot attempt to try and avoid any responsibility for what happened. Interestingly enough, we got some information regarding torque specs on a 379. It makes MY case, and undercuts theirs. (What's wrong with this picture?)

I note above you refer to it as a man. I truly believe that it is one only in the purest biological sense. It certainly doesn't act like one. (I have no reason to believe you have ever lied to us so I am assuming you have honestly described it's actions.) Also, Non carborundum Illegitimi!!!

Btodd · 2nd February 2008, 07:55 PM

While I am sympathetic to your outlook here, I would like to support what a few others have said....get rid of the violence references, and also hold on to this for two weeks or so (as PAC said, I think).

Regardless of whether you are right or not, two weeks will hopefully let you be a bit more objective, and even though you may want to send the letter, perhaps you will tweak it to make it even better.

One thing that is important here, is that the whole family will know how this all went down, including your kids. If you want your beliefs respected, and don't want to contribute to the tiresome 'angry atheist' stereotype that will be used against you, then take the highest road possible. You can still tell him most of what you did, but in a more reasonable manner that makes it obvious that you're not getting sucked into the emotional tug-of-war he's been intent on creating. You're simply done.

My two cents. For what it's worth, I'm not in your shoes. I might have reacted much worse than you!

Btodd

31st January 2008, 11:14 PM	#1
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,739	An Open Letter to a Family Member As has been noted before, I used to be a Christian. Now, I'm an Atheist. Plumjam's latest bit of self-adulatory drama provoked this letter to my brother-in-law. Considering he's every bit as big a jerk as Plumjam, it seems to fit. If there are parallels to Plumjam beyond this, it's coincidental, but not a surprise. D*, You have often wondered of late why Peggy and I aren’t in church anymore. You have complained to Jonathan that we seem to have lost our faith, and that we’re no longer serving as an example to our sons. Let me explain it to you plainly, and hopefully, we can do this without a lot of rancor on your part, or any emotional blackmail on B’s part. We quit. Peggy has been questioning her beliefs for some time now, much to my surprise, and a few months ago, I simply gave up altogether and declared myself an atheist. I no longer believe there is a god. I’m going to spare you a discussion of Biblical contradictions, and I’m certainly not going to go into any great detail about Young Earth Creationism or even Intelligent Design has so soured me on the whole idea of anyone trying to balance the notions of Evolution and Religion. (Frankly, it can’t be done on either scale, and the very idea has become an affront. Sorry.) I’m also going to avoid any discussion at this point regarding logical fallacies in Holy Writ, as well as any discussion regarding the whole notion of Hell actually being an act of Mercy for those who choose to deny God. First of all, you won’t listen. You don’t give a rat’s ass what anyone has to say about that, and the very idea of discussing any of this causes you to close your mind to any contradicting idea. Second, it wasn’t the thing which provoked us to question what it is we believe. It was your actions and B****’s actions which brought about the change. I hadn’t thought much about my decision to leave the Church, really. It seemed to be a natural outgrowth of a lot of what I’ve been reading over the past few years, as well as an extension of friendships I’ve made. Except that Peggy was talking to her cousin, R, this past weekend, and as they were talking, she said something that stuck with me. She told R, “We tithed over the years, off and on, simply as best we could, but for all the promises that were made to us about that, not one came true. It all seemed to be a lie, and I just can’t believe that it works anymore.” I heard that and thought, “Whoa.” She talked a lot about a friend we’d met who was here on business from Hawaii, and the impression she made on her. Yes, she’s not a believer, but she’s happy, she’s respected, and she treats other people in a manner that shows not only her incredible self respect, but respect for others. If there was ever a reason to visit the Islands, I’d say we’ve been given one. I keep thinking also of another friend, who works for Microsoft. He’s probably one of the kindest people I’ve met, as is his wife and daughters. It’s pretty rare for me to meet people and on the first contact, discover they have so much in common, and yet are so different, that their presence strengthens me in my life. I’m honored to spend time with people like this. These are just two people. There are others. They are kind. They are generous. They are gracious. Oh, and they’re atheists. (Probably should have mentioned that first so you could ready your put-downs as I went down their other positive traits.) It’s like this, D: For all your claims that Jesus’ presence in your life makes you a more compassionate person, your actions make that out to be a lie, and demonstrate, if anything, that Jesus’ sacrifice means little, if anything, to you. Let’s start with some of the more obvious ones. First, for years I’ve asked you to quit calling the boys “Jonthebrat” and “Bratthew.” I’ve told you to never, ever call my wife “Piggy.” It’s insulting. I find it offensive. I’ve tried everything short of violence to get through to you that it’s an affront, and you ignore me. The only reason you aren’t dressed in plastic and wearing a second smile from my Buck knife is because Peggy’s begged me to not beat your sorry ass to a broken, bloody pulp. When I’ve told you this offends me, you blow it off saying that I’m being hypersensitive. Really? I know men who are far less “sensitive” than me who would have broken your jaw for a whole lot less. Most people find that kind of thing rude, vulgar, and childish, not to mention more than a little degrading. B***, of all people, ought to be a bit more sensitive to my feelings on this, but she shares in your assessment. I don’t like my sister one bit. I avoid my own sister as much as possible, given her nasty attitude towards others. But I’ve gotten into fights when someone decided to belittle her, and would probably do so again if the need arose, simply because she is my sister. That your wife allows you to continue to belittle her sister as she does is offensive. Makes me wonder just what kind of “love” she’s showing when she allows you to call her “Piggy.” Let’s take another point: Matt has decided he’s now a Wiccan. It’s not my choice, but rather than fight with him about it, and drive my son from me, I’ve decided to simply ask questions about what it is he believes, and why he chooses to believe it. Seems to have a better effect on him. He’s still a Wiccan, but at least he’s working towards some far more serious knowledge about what it is he’s getting into. Who knows? He might actually decide the more he learns, the less appealing it is to him. But, rather than take a more reasoned approach, you and B* have gotten into emotional blackmail over this. B***’s declaration that she cries herself to sleep every night over Matt’s salvation has had the opposite effect: Matt wants less and less to do with the two of you. And your attempts at “cult busting” have been about as welcome as a ham at a Seder. (Note to Loss Leader: D*** is a converted Jew, calling himself a "Messianic Jew," so this wasn't an attempt to insult you. There was a reason behind it.)* If you had ever taken a few minutes to listen to him, and what’s pissing him off, you might have taken some time and just shut up about it. Instead, with your barrage of sanctified verbal vomit, you’re driving him away. Do the rest of us a favor, and SHUT THE F* UP! Let’s try another point, since we’re on the subject of the boys: You have, over the years, told my younger two sons just how stupid I am, and how I don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to anything from the movies I chose to let them watch as little kids, to what they could eat when they came to your house. I didn’t appreciate having to hold my kids and comfort them because you said it was okay for them to watch “Terminator 2,” leaving them with nightmares and horrors of the refrigerator becoming a cop and trying to kill them. Nor did I appreciate it when you told Jon that I wouldn’t toss him out if he didn’t get a job, even though I made it clear that I would. I also didn’t appreciate your attempts to undercut me when I did toss him out because he followed your incredibly foul advice. You further undercut me by taking him in, then belittling me for forcing you to make this “sacrifice.” (Hell, why didn’t you just shut up and tell Jon to quit whining about it and GET A DAMN JOB, which is what he ultimately wound up doing?) Seems to me this smacks of ignoring one of the Ten Commandments, particularly he one about honoring your Mother and Father. Got a hot flash for you, Ace: the reason Peggy and I have had so many discipline problems with the boys over the years is because of YOUR interference. And you claim your actions are “Christian”? Who are you kidding? As to my older sons, you demanded to be welcomed at Chris and Kasey’s wedding, and you seem to think you’re owed respect from James and Maddie. Sorry, but those two young men are well aware of your actions, and the degradation you’ve heaped on Peggy and me over they years. If the only time you want to be involved in their lives is when you see some benefit to yourself, you’re not being Christian, you’re an opportunist. The fact that you were in Ellensburg, WA, while Chris was a student at CWU, and you and B** couldn’t even be bothered to make a phone call and stop by to say hello, (which you stupidly admitted to when Chris and Kasey came down for a visit, a trip they could scarcely afford, and during which you insisted on having some time with them), underscores the whole point. If that weren’t enough, you and B** seem to think it’s okay to demand time from James when he’s still trying to recover from his injuries from his time in the Army. He’s a new father, D. He doesn’t have time for you or for your crap. (And if you even think of coming up with an insulting name for any of my grandkids, you’d better be packing heat.) The final degradation? B and D** have been having a hard time of late, and with D**’ medical problems, B* wound up moving into your home for a few days. You have spent an incredible amount of time bitching and whining about how much it’s going to cost you if B* winds up moving into your home on a permanent basis. You self-centered, narcissistic idiot! Considering everything that our father-in-law has done over the years for all of us, I would have thought you would have viewed this as a privilege to take him into your home. Instead, you have decided that it’s too much of a burden for you and B**, and that it would cramp your life too much. You make twice the money I do, and you’re complaining about the “burden”? Hell, your house is paid for, or at least it was. B* moving into your home is a “burden”? To me, it would have been an honor. You have whined for years that the State of California won’t promote you to management, but I don’t see anything in your actions that show you’d make a good manager. If anything, your personality traits at home would be a prime motivation for me, were I in management, to try to get your terminated. Frankly, the fact that you had to fight to become the middle management douche that you are today suggests strongly to me that your rather appalling personality flaws have been front and center at work as much as they have been at home. They aren’t promoting you further not because you’re a Christian; they aren’t promoting you further because you’re a bigoted jackass who belittles gays, lesbians, liberals, non-Christians, the physically disabled, anyone of color, and your own family. Get a clue: No one wants to work for a jerk, and in this day and age, promoting a jerk to management is a good way to get your ass sued. Frankly, your attitude towards Peggy and me because we’ve been divorced makes me wonder who else you’ve chosen to insult in your life. I’m still floored by your nasty remarks about the circumstances of our respective divorces, particularly since they both happened long before you entered our lives, and you had no knowledge of our prior spouses before you married B. See, D, there’s a lot of difference between you and an atheist. I am barely an acquaintance of James Randi, yet this man, who has had a tremendous positive effect on our society, (which you’d know if you’d ever get your head out from between your cheeks), treated my wife with incredible respect. That was something I appreciated. Most atheists treat my wife with respect. You don’t. If anything, you’ve treated the woman I love with incredible contempt. Why would I want to associate with you? For that matter, what in your behavior demonstrates anything “Christlike?” Not one damned thing. I’m done, D**. I don’t want you at my house, I don’t want to be in yours. As much as possible, I want you out of my life. I’m clearing a room for my father-in-law, where he’ll be a welcome part of my family. And when my sons realize what kind of a person you really are, maybe they’ll come home and recognize that their dad really wasn’t so stupid after all. And if this means I’m doomed to Hell, hey, any Heaven that would want someone as creepy as you can’t really be worth shooting for, can it?
	Last edited by LibraryLady; 1st February 2008 at 06:17 AM.

31st January 2008, 11:41 PM	#2
devnull Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 4,537	ouch! nicely done
	__________________ no, i don't think i need to read naturalistic literature more accurately, to be convinced its true. - Gibhor

1st February 2008, 12:06 AM	#3
Mobyseven President of Covert-Ops Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Not the Rat. Posts: 5,672	As always, very well put. Straight from the part of the brain we symbolically associate with the heart, I say.
	__________________ "[Mobyseven is] a fantastically friendly, open, curious, happy, charming, sweet and adorable young man! And those are his bad points." - HistoryGal on Mobyseven "Damn, you're good." - Ichneumonwasp on Mobyseven

1st February 2008, 01:06 AM	#4
Oroborus Thinker Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 238	Not to be pedantic but I noticed "to try to get your terminated". I applaud your letter if you infact thing it's going to make a difference on this guy (who seems atleast) to be an utter buffoon and jackass. I can understand your need to vent this righteous anger but it might be easier in the long run to just cut them out of your life without a word (if possible). But I'm sure you know whats best when it comes down to it. In either case, a good read.
Oroborus Thinker Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 238	__________________ "The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do." Eric Hoffer

1st February 2008, 04:28 AM	#5
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Roadtoad, I think I love you.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

1st February 2008, 05:02 AM	#6
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,739	Originally Posted by Oroborus Not to be pedantic but I noticed "to try to get your terminated". I applaud your letter if you infact thing it's going to make a difference on this guy (who seems atleast) to be an utter buffoon and jackass. I can understand your need to vent this righteous anger but it might be easier in the long run to just cut them out of your life without a word (if possible). But I'm sure you know whats best when it comes down to it. In either case, a good read. I probably should get his backside fired, Oroborus, simply because he has the authority to make some innocent person's life miserable. Unfortunately, doing so would easily get me sued. My b-i-l is exceptionally vindictive, (hence the blocking of names). He's two years from retiring from state service, so maybe, just maybe, that would be just long enough to put up with. I've been refusing to go to their house for any reason over the past many months. Peggy's gone alone for family gatherings, while I've used the excuse that I had a truck to work on. Seems to work for now. I'd simply rather she cut people from her life who treat her in a disrespectful manner, and if that includes her idiot sister, so be it.

1st February 2008, 05:41 AM	#7
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,237	Good letter. Straight and to the point. He deserved every unkind word and I hope he had the guts to finish it from beginning to end. Some of the worst people I have ever had the misfortune to meet wouldn't miss church for anything in this world. I'm an atheist myself and thats the way I'm staying. I do know of a few good Christians. My mothers first cousin had a Baptist mission in Guatamala when two little girls suddenly became orphaned. They bus their parents had been riding in lost its brakes and went over a cliff. They were killed leaving the girls with no one. This pastor adopted these little Indian girls even though he knew no Spanish. The last I saw of them they had been properly educated on a college level. Thats a good christian and a good person. I'd do the same thing. He did it because he had a compassionate nature not because he was a Christian.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

1st February 2008, 05:59 AM	#8
A Christian Sceptic Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I'm a male! Posts: 2,288	So - is this a letter to your wife's sisters husband? What are your goals with that letter? To vent after holding your tongue for so long? To cut off all ties with these people? That letter will definitely do the trick. I doubt you'll have much of a relationship left (it doesn't sound like you have much aleady) but plenty of hostile feelings going both ways after that letter. It sounded like at the end you have some of your kids living with this guy? If that's true you might want to assume they will hear of this letter filtered through this guy and you might want to try to forsee what sort of effect that will have with your sons.
	__________________ How's it hanging?

1st February 2008, 06:06 AM	#9
sphenisc Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 3,751	Originally Posted by Roadtoad I probably should get his backside fired, Oroborus, simply because he has the authority to make some innocent person's life miserable. Unfortunately, doing so would easily get me sued. My b-i-l is exceptionally vindictive, (hence the blocking of names). He's two years from retiring from state service, so maybe, just maybe, that would be just long enough to put up with. I've been refusing to go to their house for any reason over the past many months. Peggy's gone alone for family gatherings, while I've used the excuse that I had a truck to work on. Seems to work for now. I'd simply rather she cut people from her life who treat her in a disrespectful manner, and if that includes her idiot sister, so be it. You've missed blocking your sister's name at one point - perhaps a mod could edit?
sphenisc Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 3,751

1st February 2008, 06:17 AM	#10
LibraryLady ...but not JUST a LibraryLady Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Building a house in the common ground Posts: 13,130	Originally Posted by sphenisc You've missed blocking your sister's name at one point - perhaps a mod could edit? I usually don't mod at work but I made an exception. Roadie, could you write a letter to my brother, please?
	__________________ What would Hüsker Dü? I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about. Mildred Loving

1st February 2008, 06:40 AM	#11
Walk The Line We ARE Virginia Tech Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 936	This brother-in-law sounds more like an immature teenager rather than an adult.

1st February 2008, 06:58 AM	#12
coalesce Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 3,387	Originally Posted by A Christian Sceptic So - is this a letter to your wife's sisters husband? What are your goals with that letter? To vent after holding your tongue for so long? To cut off all ties with these people? That letter will definitely do the trick. I doubt you'll have much of a relationship left (it doesn't sound like you have much aleady) but plenty of hostile feelings going both ways after that letter. It sounded like at the end you have some of your kids living with this guy? If that's true you might want to assume they will hear of this letter filtered through this guy and you might want to try to forsee what sort of effect that will have with your sons. Easy way around that: send the letters to the kids' workplaces, so that they get the letter unfiltered. Then there's no way anyone else can put their own spin on it. Insofar as anything being left of the relationship after the letter being read: it doesn't sound like there was anything worth saving, so what's the loss. I doubt if Roadtoad's in-laws will accept any of the criticisms in the letter. In all likelihood, they will continue going about behaving in a holier-than-thou fashion and think that the disingenuous practice of their faith will justify them. Rotsa ruck on that one. Michael
	__________________ "I want the kids in bed by nine, the dog fed, the yard watered and the gate locked. And get a note to the milkman NO MORE CHEESE!"

1st February 2008, 07:29 AM	#13
Beth Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Flatland Posts: 5,307	Roadtoad, I know you've been through some hard times lately, but I'm really struck by the change in tone of your writings over the past few years. When you considered yourself a Christian, you seemed a kinder friendlier roadtoad. I don't know if the change is due to your loss of faith, the concommitant loss of a community to turn to for support, or just the very hard times you've been through, but I wish you well with whatever you do and I hope your hard times are over soon. As far as your b-i-l, he sounds like exactly the sort of mean-spirited and judgemental person that are drawn to fundamentalist beliefs of all stripes. The world has too many of them and too few like you. I hope writing and posting your letter was helpful to you, but unless you think sending it to him will improve your relationships with those you actually love, I wouldn't advise it. It gives him a dose of his own back, that is true, but do you want to be like him?
	__________________ Beth "You are not the stuff of which you are made." Richard Dawkins, July 2005, 10:45 http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_daw..._universe.html

1st February 2008, 07:40 AM	#14
A Christian Sceptic Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I'm a male! Posts: 2,288	Originally Posted by roadtoad The only reason you aren’t dressed in plastic and wearing a second smile from my Buck knife is because Peggy’s begged me to not beat your sorry ass to a broken, bloody pulp. You might also want to think twice about incuding any references to violence and murder in the letter also.
	__________________ How's it hanging?

1st February 2008, 07:51 AM	#15
A Christian Sceptic Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I'm a male! Posts: 2,288	Originally Posted by coalesce Insofar as anything being left of the relationship after the letter being read: it doesn't sound like there was anything worth saving, so what's the loss. Pouring gasoline on a fire never puts out the fire and very often does extra unintended damage to everything (and everyone) around it. Since this guy isn't even a blood relative of either him (roadtoad) or his wife the damage that will be done on top of the other guys actions don't seem that worthwhile. The problems will still be there except amplified. The damage done isn't going to be with just this guy, but roadtoads wife's sister and possibly roadtoads own kids. What if the sister's relationship with them is damaged with this, and in a year the guy dies or they get a divorce? Well - the sister who is a blood relative will still probably have to be in contact with roadtoad, may still harbor illwill, while this guy gets to go merrily on his way never to be heard from again.
	__________________ How's it hanging? Last edited by A Christian Sceptic; 1st February 2008 at 07:54 AM.

1st February 2008, 08:00 AM	#16
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	HEAR! HEAR! Now, put all the names back, and put it in a full-page add in your brother-in-law's favorite paper.
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.** Last edited by Fnord; 1st February 2008 at 08:00 AM.

1st February 2008, 08:20 AM	#17
JWideman Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,241	I really think you should say these things to his face.

1st February 2008, 08:33 AM	#18
Susan Gerbic Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Salinas Posts: 1,521	still not sure who is who. Is Peggy your wife or your sister who is married to this jerk? I can't believe he calls her Piggy, that would break the relationship without anything else being mentioned. If you haven't sent the letter yet, I would cut out about 2/3 of it. I would leave in the part where you mention that he belittles just about everyone (use all the examples where he has done this) I would remove all the details and violence you can. Who knows someone may end this man's life for their own reasons and you will be blamed. If this was an Agatha Christie, someone would end his life in just the way you described in the letter and let you take the blame. besides the violence is distracting to the otherwise good letter. I would simply state that his actions are not what the majority of the world would find Christian and give reasons. The I would say that for various reasons, including watching his Christian actions you have become Atheist. For the most part we don't chose to become Atheist but are led to it by reason, many of us were stressed knowing that we were losing faith. Then when it happens we are happier than ever. Susan
	__________________ Quit Complaining and Get Active! formerly known as sgf8

1st February 2008, 08:44 AM	#19
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,301	Originally Posted by Roadtoad [i]? Excellent letter - it sounds like D is a royal pile of feces and got called on it. Probably should have been sooner (as you noted) but sometimes we do try to hold things together longer because family is involved. Congratulations on getting your shoes a bit cleaner!! Best to you and family!! (feel free to post his response (if any and if funny!!))
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,301

1st February 2008, 08:55 AM	#20
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,301	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Good letter. Straight and to the point. He deserved every unkind word and I hope he had the guts to finish it from beginning to end. Some of the worst people I have ever had the misfortune to meet wouldn't miss church for anything in this world. I'm an atheist myself and thats the way I'm staying. I do know of a few good Christians. My mothers first cousin had a Baptist mission in Guatamala when two little girls suddenly became orphaned. They bus their parents had been riding in lost its brakes and went over a cliff. They were killed leaving the girls with no one. This pastor adopted these little Indian girls even though he knew no Spanish. The last I saw of them they had been properly educated on a college level. Thats a good christian and a good person. I'd do the same thing. He did it because he had a compassionate nature not because he was a Christian. There are wonderful Christians, wonderful Jews, wonderful Muslims (I have known and been friends with some of each). The thing is, religion will no more keep a good person from being a good person than atheism or agnosticism will (the good side) but equally, it will no more make a bad person good thatn atheism or agnosticism will (the bad side). Some people who are religious seem to have difficulty with that. Life is tough.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,301

1st February 2008, 09:07 AM	#21
kedo1981 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: ohio Posts: 2,103	We all know people like this from all walks of life, Christian and not. Is it worse when a Christian is like this? Out of every church with an couple hundred members there will always be a handful or so, so tell me “Christian Skeptic” what do non jerk Christians think of, do about, say about, their fellow believers who have such personality disorders. Will such people be rewarded with salvation?
	__________________ "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21) I readily admit I don’t know enough to say for sure that there is no God. But I do know enough so say that anyone who claims to know the mind and will of a being such as God is a liar. I have no problem with Jesus, but his fan club sucks!

1st February 2008, 09:15 AM	#22
Beth Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Flatland Posts: 5,307	Originally Posted by kedo1981 We all know people like this from all walks of life, Christian and not. Is it worse when a Christian is like this? I think it is. Christians who are mean-spirited and judgemental are failing to live up to the values they espouse - i.e. love and forgiveness for everyone. Likewise, I think dogmatic skeptics are worse than dogmatic non-skeptics because I think a core value of skepticism is being non-dogmatic and open to having assumptions challenged. Of course, we all fail to live up to our ideals at times.
	__________________ Beth "You are not the stuff of which you are made." Richard Dawkins, July 2005, 10:45 http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_daw..._universe.html Last edited by Beth; 1st February 2008 at 09:16 AM.

1st February 2008, 09:38 AM	#23
A Christian Sceptic Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I'm a male! Posts: 2,288	Originally Posted by kedo1981 We all know people like this from all walks of life, Christian and not. Is it worse when a Christian is like this? Are there varying degrees and levels of hypocrites? Is a Christian Hypocrite worse than a Buhddist, Muslim, Jewish, Diest, Panthiest, or Athiest Hypocrite? Quote: Out of every church with an couple hundred members there will always be a handful or so, so tell me “Christian Skeptic” what do non jerk Christians think of, do about, say about, their fellow believers who have such personality disorders. Will such people be rewarded with salvation? God only knows, I only hope - for hypocrites and non-hypocrites alike.
	__________________ How's it hanging?

2nd February 2008, 09:33 AM	#24
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,739	I've still got the letter in the laptop. No, I haven't sent it, and yes, I'm seriously thinking of stating it in person. And while this will scorch out what remains of a relationship with this man, I'm thinking I wouldn't lose all that much. My third son, Jon, is living with his aunt and uncle, but he's also looking for his own apartment at this time. Once he's moved out, we'll see about whether or not it's a smart thing to rip into my b-i-l. (Actually, SC, I owe you. You're right about making any threat of violence, and "the genius" would probably view that as actionable.) And, yes, I'm rather devoid of a community connection right now, but I've been without one for some time, particularly since we left the last church where we had membership, with a pastor who allowed the older, bigger kids to bully my younger sons. (They tried it once with the older two and got flattened.) The pastor at that church said I shouldn't interfere in this, it would make my younger sons tougher. (Sure. Jon's working to become a firefighter, and doing quite well with his classes. I can see how he's become such a WIMP...) Things have been harder over the past few years. The latest nonsense is that Peterbilt is making multiple recommendations on how I'm supposed to drive. They offer no courses, they offer no specifics based on downloaded info from the computer, (which, oddly enough, they didn't bother to download in the first place), and much of this is simply a scattershot attempt to try and avoid any responsibility for what happened. Interestingly enough, we got some information regarding torque specs on a 379. It makes MY case, and undercuts theirs. (What's wrong with this picture?)

2nd February 2008, 10:09 AM	#25
LibraryLady ...but not JUST a LibraryLady Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Building a house in the common ground Posts: 13,130	Originally Posted by Roadtoad And, yes, I'm rather devoid of a community connection right now, but I've been without one for some time, particularly since we left the last church where we had membership, with a pastor who allowed the older, bigger kids to bully my younger sons. This is demonstratively untrue. You have a community.
	__________________ What would Hüsker Dü? I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about. Mildred Loving

2nd February 2008, 10:19 AM	#26
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,739	Originally Posted by LibraryLady This is demonstratively untrue. You have a community. Online, yes. But I could wish I could spend some time with other skeptics more often, ideally face to face.

2nd February 2008, 11:02 AM	#27
petra10 Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: scotland uk Posts: 1,796	Wow just wow Roadtoad, please do sent this letter.Although I do agree you should take out some of the voilent threats. Please also let us know his reply.I also think you should have done this years ago. well done.
	__________________ "Imagine theres no heaven,its easy if you try. no hell below us,above us only sky." John Lennon

2nd February 2008, 11:10 AM	#28
XBoxWarrior Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Down in the Treme... Posts: 1,232	Originally Posted by Roadtoad As has been noted before, I used to be a Christian. Now, I'm an Atheist. Plumjam's latest bit of self-adulatory drama provoked this letter to my brother-in-law. Considering he's every bit as big a jerk as Plumjam, it seems to fit. If there are parallels to Plumjam beyond this, it's coincidental, but not a surprise. D*, You have often wondered of late why Peggy and I aren’t in church anymore. You have complained to Jonathan that we seem to have lost our faith, and that we’re no longer serving as an example to our sons. Let me explain it to you plainly, and hopefully, we can do this without a lot of rancor on your part, or any emotional blackmail on B’s part. We quit. Peggy has been questioning her beliefs for some time now, much to my surprise, and a few months ago, I simply gave up altogether and declared myself an atheist. I no longer believe there is a god. I’m going to spare you a discussion of Biblical contradictions, and I’m certainly not going to go into any great detail about Young Earth Creationism or even Intelligent Design has so soured me on the whole idea of anyone trying to balance the notions of Evolution and Religion. (Frankly, it can’t be done on either scale, and the very idea has become an affront. Sorry.) I’m also going to avoid any discussion at this point regarding logical fallacies in Holy Writ, as well as any discussion regarding the whole notion of Hell actually being an act of Mercy for those who choose to deny God. First of all, you won’t listen. You don’t give a rat’s ass what anyone has to say about that, and the very idea of discussing any of this causes you to close your mind to any contradicting idea. Second, it wasn’t the thing which provoked us to question what it is we believe. It was your actions and B****’s actions which brought about the change. I hadn’t thought much about my decision to leave the Church, really. It seemed to be a natural outgrowth of a lot of what I’ve been reading over the past few years, as well as an extension of friendships I’ve made. Except that Peggy was talking to her cousin, R, this past weekend, and as they were talking, she said something that stuck with me. She told R, “We tithed over the years, off and on, simply as best we could, but for all the promises that were made to us about that, not one came true. It all seemed to be a lie, and I just can’t believe that it works anymore.” I heard that and thought, “Whoa.” She talked a lot about a friend we’d met who was here on business from Hawaii, and the impression she made on her. Yes, she’s not a believer, but she’s happy, she’s respected, and she treats other people in a manner that shows not only her incredible self respect, but respect for others. If there was ever a reason to visit the Islands, I’d say we’ve been given one. I keep thinking also of another friend, who works for Microsoft. He’s probably one of the kindest people I’ve met, as is his wife and daughters. It’s pretty rare for me to meet people and on the first contact, discover they have so much in common, and yet are so different, that their presence strengthens me in my life. I’m honored to spend time with people like this. These are just two people. There are others. They are kind. They are generous. They are gracious. Oh, and they’re atheists. (Probably should have mentioned that first so you could ready your put-downs as I went down their other positive traits.) It’s like this, D: For all your claims that Jesus’ presence in your life makes you a more compassionate person, your actions make that out to be a lie, and demonstrate, if anything, that Jesus’ sacrifice means little, if anything, to you. Let’s start with some of the more obvious ones. First, for years I’ve asked you to quit calling the boys “Jonthebrat” and “Bratthew.” I’ve told you to never, ever call my wife “Piggy.” It’s insulting. I find it offensive. I’ve tried everything short of violence to get through to you that it’s an affront, and you ignore me. The only reason you aren’t dressed in plastic and wearing a second smile from my Buck knife is because Peggy’s begged me to not beat your sorry ass to a broken, bloody pulp. When I’ve told you this offends me, you blow it off saying that I’m being hypersensitive. Really? I know men who are far less “sensitive” than me who would have broken your jaw for a whole lot less. Most people find that kind of thing rude, vulgar, and childish, not to mention more than a little degrading. B***, of all people, ought to be a bit more sensitive to my feelings on this, but she shares in your assessment. I don’t like my sister one bit. I avoid my own sister as much as possible, given her nasty attitude towards others. But I’ve gotten into fights when someone decided to belittle her, and would probably do so again if the need arose, simply because she is my sister. That your wife allows you to continue to belittle her sister as she does is offensive. Makes me wonder just what kind of “love” she’s showing when she allows you to call her “Piggy.” Let’s take another point: Matt has decided he’s now a Wiccan. It’s not my choice, but rather than fight with him about it, and drive my son from me, I’ve decided to simply ask questions about what it is he believes, and why he chooses to believe it. Seems to have a better effect on him. He’s still a Wiccan, but at least he’s working towards some far more serious knowledge about what it is he’s getting into. Who knows? He might actually decide the more he learns, the less appealing it is to him. But, rather than take a more reasoned approach, you and B* have gotten into emotional blackmail over this. B***’s declaration that she cries herself to sleep every night over Matt’s salvation has had the opposite effect: Matt wants less and less to do with the two of you. And your attempts at “cult busting” have been about as welcome as a ham at a Seder. (Note to Loss Leader: D*** is a converted Jew, calling himself a "Messianic Jew," so this wasn't an attempt to insult you. There was a reason behind it.)* If you had ever taken a few minutes to listen to him, and what’s pissing him off, you might have taken some time and just shut up about it. Instead, with your barrage of sanctified verbal vomit, you’re driving him away. Do the rest of us a favor, and SHUT THE F* UP! Let’s try another point, since we’re on the subject of the boys: You have, over the years, told my younger two sons just how stupid I am, and how I don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to anything from the movies I chose to let them watch as little kids, to what they could eat when they came to your house. I didn’t appreciate having to hold my kids and comfort them because you said it was okay for them to watch “Terminator 2,” leaving them with nightmares and horrors of the refrigerator becoming a cop and trying to kill them. Nor did I appreciate it when you told Jon that I wouldn’t toss him out if he didn’t get a job, even though I made it clear that I would. I also didn’t appreciate your attempts to undercut me when I did toss him out because he followed your incredibly foul advice. You further undercut me by taking him in, then belittling me for forcing you to make this “sacrifice.” (Hell, why didn’t you just shut up and tell Jon to quit whining about it and GET A DAMN JOB, which is what he ultimately wound up doing?) Seems to me this smacks of ignoring one of the Ten Commandments, particularly he one about honoring your Mother and Father. Got a hot flash for you, Ace: the reason Peggy and I have had so many discipline problems with the boys over the years is because of YOUR interference. And you claim your actions are “Christian”? Who are you kidding? As to my older sons, you demanded to be welcomed at Chris and Kasey’s wedding, and you seem to think you’re owed respect from James and Maddie. Sorry, but those two young men are well aware of your actions, and the degradation you’ve heaped on Peggy and me over they years. If the only time you want to be involved in their lives is when you see some benefit to yourself, you’re not being Christian, you’re an opportunist. The fact that you were in Ellensburg, WA, while Chris was a student at CWU, and you and B** couldn’t even be bothered to make a phone call and stop by to say hello, (which you stupidly admitted to when Chris and Kasey came down for a visit, a trip they could scarcely afford, and during which you insisted on having some time with them), underscores the whole point. If that weren’t enough, you and B** seem to think it’s okay to demand time from James when he’s still trying to recover from his injuries from his time in the Army. He’s a new father, D. He doesn’t have time for you or for your crap. (And if you even think of coming up with an insulting name for any of my grandkids, you’d better be packing heat.) The final degradation? B and D** have been having a hard time of late, and with D**’ medical problems, B* wound up moving into your home for a few days. You have spent an incredible amount of time bitching and whining about how much it’s going to cost you if B* winds up moving into your home on a permanent basis. You self-centered, narcissistic idiot! Considering everything that our father-in-law has done over the years for all of us, I would have thought you would have viewed this as a privilege to take him into your home. Instead, you have decided that it’s too much of a burden for you and B**, and that it would cramp your life too much. You make twice the money I do, and you’re complaining about the “burden”? Hell, your house is paid for, or at least it was. B* moving into your home is a “burden”? To me, it would have been an honor. You have whined for years that the State of California won’t promote you to management, but I don’t see anything in your actions that show you’d make a good manager. If anything, your personality traits at home would be a prime motivation for me, were I in management, to try to get your terminated. Frankly, the fact that you had to fight to become the middle management douche that you are today suggests strongly to me that your rather appalling personality flaws have been front and center at work as much as they have been at home. They aren’t promoting you further not because you’re a Christian; they aren’t promoting you further because you’re a bigoted jackass who belittles gays, lesbians, liberals, non-Christians, the physically disabled, anyone of color, and your own family. Get a clue: No one wants to work for a jerk, and in this day and age, promoting a jerk to management is a good way to get your ass sued. Frankly, your attitude towards Peggy and me because we’ve been divorced makes me wonder who else you’ve chosen to insult in your life. I’m still floored by your nasty remarks about the circumstances of our respective divorces, particularly since they both happened long before you entered our lives, and you had no knowledge of our prior spouses before you married B. See, D, there’s a lot of difference between you and an atheist. I am barely an acquaintance of James Randi, yet this man, who has had a tremendous positive effect on our society, (which you’d know if you’d ever get your head out from between your cheeks), treated my wife with incredible respect. That was something I appreciated. Most atheists treat my wife with respect. You don’t. If anything, you’ve treated the woman I love with incredible contempt. Why would I want to associate with you? For that matter, what in your behavior demonstrates anything “Christlike?” Not one damned thing. I’m done, D**. I don’t want you at my house, I don’t want to be in yours. As much as possible, I want you out of my life. I’m clearing a room for my father-in-law, where he’ll be a welcome part of my family. And when my sons realize what kind of a person you really are, maybe they’ll come home and recognize that their dad really wasn’t so stupid after all. And if this means I’m doomed to Hell, hey, any Heaven that would want someone as creepy as you can’t really be worth shooting for, can it? Nonsense.........and a waste of bandwidth. Just kick 'em in the shins, and to bugger off. p.s. nice rant

2nd February 2008, 11:24 AM	#29
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,347	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Online, yes. But I could wish I could spend some time with other skeptics more often, ideally face to face. Now that I have your contact info, hopefully we can meet up on the west coast more often.
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

2nd February 2008, 12:28 PM	#30
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,137	Excellent letter. Of course, all he'll see is "attack attack attack I'm an atheist and I hate Christians!" It's not his hypocrisy that makes him an *****. It's that he claims that he is more moral than you while being a complete douchebag that makes him an *****. And why is it always the people who rail against "liberals" who let little kids watch violent R-rated movies, undercut the authority of parents, won't take care of their elderly relatives, and refrain from using tough love on adult relatives who try to freeload? I thought those were all "liberal" behaviors.

2nd February 2008, 12:36 PM	#31
sthomson Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 934	As for community, have you thought about Unitarian Universalist? It highly depends on the congregation, of course, but I know that some are full of atheists and agnostics looking for the sense of community they had at a Christian church.
sthomson Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 934

2nd February 2008, 01:09 PM	#32
halofish2000 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 164	Sorry to hear you going through this with family. It is bad enough as is but family definitely makes it tougher. You seem to have a lot of patience and compassion. These are gifts that I wish more people had. On the flip side, you are to stand up and protect your family, regardless if you are a Christian or not. Be angry and sin not. Hard, I know...but it can be done. We had a very difficult time in my family anout 15 years ago. I think most people can vouch for their own. Simply put, a church has zero authority on what one does once the meeting has adjourned. There is NO law of tithing and no law of giving to the church. I was able to finally help my older brother understand this. Not before he was extorted thousands. If a church tells you that we are commanded to give to them turn and go to the nearest Mickey D's, drive to the beach and enjoy the view. I don't know if everything in that letter needs to be said. Would feel good to ....for a while maybe.
halofish2000 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 164

2nd February 2008, 01:51 PM	#33
Gilmar Muse Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: From the desert to the sea. Posts: 573	Even if you don't send it in this form, it's good to vent and get your thoughts down on paper (or a Word doc). Makes me glad I don't have people like that in my life.
	__________________ Woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, I'm pulling over the side of the road to let the ambulance drive by. - Senex "World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimization." - Less Wrong You can't make Frodo a Jedi without giving Sauron the Death Star. - Less Wrong

2nd February 2008, 01:54 PM	#34
halofish2000 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 164	I remember venting on my mother-in-law. Felt good. Now she is my Ex-mother-in-law.
halofish2000 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 164

2nd February 2008, 05:08 PM	#35
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,739	Originally Posted by halofish2000 Sorry to hear you going through this with family. It is bad enough as is but family definitely makes it tougher. You seem to have a lot of patience and compassion. These are gifts that I wish more people had. On the flip side, you are to stand up and protect your family, regardless if you are a Christian or not. Be angry and sin not. Hard, I know...but it can be done. We had a very difficult time in my family anout 15 years ago. I think most people can vouch for their own. Simply put, a church has zero authority on what one does once the meeting has adjourned. There is NO law of tithing and no law of giving to the church. I was able to finally help my older brother understand this. Not before he was extorted thousands. If a church tells you that we are commanded to give to them turn and go to the nearest Mickey D's, drive to the beach and enjoy the view. I don't know if everything in that letter needs to be said. Would feel good to ....for a while maybe. I like you, Halofish. You're decent.