Why do we save people who are in danger?

EGarrett · 10th February 2008, 07:56 AM

Note: "Because it's the right thing to do" is an unsupported assertion...and thus not a satisfactory answer.

TragicMonkey · 10th February 2008, 08:09 AM

Self interest. We ourselves might be in danger someday, therefore it is in our best interests to foster a culture of helpfulness.

ARubberChickenWithAPulley · 10th February 2008, 08:28 AM

I think TragicMonkey hit part of it above, but I read this great article a couple of months ago that I'll share. It's actually about the Natalie Sarkisyan case, where an insurance company refused to pay for a procedure that they considered risky/experimental/unlikely to work. I don't want to turn this thread into another health care or insurance argument, so please don't

the article itself discusses some interesting points about America's attitude towards "rescue."

When a health insurer says it won't pay

Quote:

Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, said there was still no escaping emotion as a factor in U.S. medicine.

People here put tremendous effort, he said, into saving trapped miners, little girls in wells, hikers stranded on frigid mountains.

"Americans are interested in spending money on things that work," he said, "but we are also a society that does value rescue."

And, he said, people want to go the extra mile for children. "Seventeen-year-olds and younger have special moral status," he said. "They're seen as people who, I'll just say it bluntly, deserve more."

He said he thought insurers should factor the U.S. penchant for rescue into their budgets, or the rest of us should figure out another way to finance care for people in desperate straits

I know saying we have a "penchant for rescue" is perhaps not detailed insight, but I think it is about accurate: along with what TragicMonkey said, we simply have a culture that values happy endings. It's part rational self-interest and part emotional. And, as the above quote alludes to, who is being rescued is definitely important: if it was "convicted-felon drug dealer dirtbag trapped in well," I'd guess it wouldn't get so much attention. At least, anything other than basic rescue attempts would be controversial, IMO.

skeptifem · 10th February 2008, 09:00 AM

people feel good after they help others. I think empathy is another reason.

Gord_in_Toronto · 10th February 2008, 09:09 AM

Game Theory shows that a group that in which the members co-operate has a slight survival advantage over groups that do not co-operate. This is selected for by Natural Selection and we end up with such things as empathy to enforce it.

Gagglegnash · 10th February 2008, 09:19 AM

Hi

Another possibility: Empathy (and possibly mirror neurons).

We see someone in distress, and we feel distress ourselves. Relieving the original distress makes us feel better by relieving our distress AND makes us feel 'good' by reinforcing the group social bond.

Just an idea, though.

TragicMonkey · 10th February 2008, 11:36 AM

We also help others because we might get an advantage out of it. The drowning child you save might turn out to have wealthy and grateful parents. You call the paramedics for the old lady having a heart attack, and one of the EMTs turns out to be really quite hot, and available. The stray dog you take in might cough up a diamond ring it swallowed when it lived with Missy Elliot. The universe is a complex series of interlocking events, and while karma may be a crock that doesn't mean that you won't get cash money and lots of tail from being a good person. Not that that's the only reason to be a good person, but hell, who's going to turn down the rewards of virtue?

fuelair · 10th February 2008, 12:05 PM

And then, some people can't not be helpful. No idea why - anymore than I know why I like little kids and they like me (though some evidence makes it seem that I know/intuit little kidness so they see me not as an adult but as a large little kid who plays well). Hopefully there will be no misinterpretation of this - read my posts on weapons if you have any doubts in that area.

steverino · 10th February 2008, 01:58 PM

This rescuing mentality is sometimes irrational. If it is a cute blonde child, or a pretty girl, or a puppy, or horse, we value the loss (if the rescue does not succeed) more than if it's just a plain old Joe. When I lived in Chicago there was the case of the two, cute (white) "home-alone kids" in Wheaton, Illinois. The parents left them home to go to Vegas, I think. It was a huge story in Chicago at the time-abusive parents, and how could they mistreat the cutie pies, etc. Then the public became enlightened with the reality that thousands of inner-city kids are left home alone in fatherless homes, or left with an aunt or grandmother, who sometimes lose track of who is being taken care of when, and the perception was that a large fuss was made over two cute white upper-middle-class tykes because they were not poor minority kids.

Gord_in_Toronto · 10th February 2008, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by steverino

This rescuing mentality is sometimes irrational. If it is a cute blonde child, or a pretty girl, or a puppy, or horse, we value the loss (if the rescue does not succeed) more than if it's just a plain old Joe. When I lived in Chicago there was the case of the two, cute (white) "home-alone kids" in Wheaton, Illinois. The parents left them home to go to Vegas, I think. It was a huge story in Chicago at the time-abusive parents, and how could they mistreat the cutie pies, etc. Then the public became enlightened with the reality that thousands of inner-city kids are left home alone in fatherless homes, or left with an aunt or grandmother, who sometimes lose track of who is being taken care of when, and the perception was that a large fuss was made over two cute white upper-middle-class tykes because they were not poor minority kids.

And they still have not found the killer of poor little Jon-Binet have they?

fuelair · 10th February 2008, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

We also help others because we might get an advantage out of it. The drowning child you save might turn out to have wealthy and grateful parents. You call the paramedics for the old lady having a heart attack, and one of the EMTs turns out to be really quite hot, and available. The stray dog you take in might cough up a diamond ring it swallowed when it lived with Missy Elliot. The universe is a complex series of interlocking events, and while karma may be a crock that doesn't mean that you won't get cash money and lots of tail from being a good person. Not that that's the only reason to be a good person, but hell, who's going to turn down the rewards of virtue?

By the same token, my first assistance attempt - in my teens- involved an older black woman who had fallen - I sssisted her up, checked to see that she was ok and went on my way. Was stopped by a younger black man who thanked me - was not hesitant with her but reluctant to be thanked - it is what I do. Not thanks or notice (so why am I telling it here - because only one person on this forum knows who I am and I am not worried about that person passing it on - and it is anecdotal but like a lot of other people I suspect). The next two (non-military) were both adult males who had fallen/were not reasonably concious who I put my recent Red Cross First Aid training to use on re: checking if breathing, able to talk, etc. The first was apparently drunk and police observing took over. The second collapsed in the door of a porn store and I checked him while the clerk called police/med. They took over. 3times, no concern about rewards. People should help people if they are able to, And fortunately, a lot of the people here - as well as others I know - will do exactly that. Just part of being human.

geni · 10th February 2008, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by EGarrett

Note: "Because it's the right thing to do" is an unsupported assertion...and thus not a satisfactory answer.

Because someone somewhere probably cares about that person and may not be best pleased to hear that you did nothing and may take steps to indicate how upset they are.

TragicMonkey · 10th February 2008, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

By the same token, my first assistance attempt - in my teens- involved an older black woman who had fallen - I sssisted her up, checked to see that she was ok and went on my way. Was stopped by a younger black man who thanked me - was not hesitant with her but reluctant to be thanked - it is what I do. Not thanks or notice (so why am I telling it here - because only one person on this forum knows who I am and I am not worried about that person passing it on - and it is anecdotal but like a lot of other people I suspect). The next two (non-military) were both adult males who had fallen/were not reasonably concious who I put my recent Red Cross First Aid training to use on re: checking if breathing, able to talk, etc. The first was apparently drunk and police observing took over. The second collapsed in the door of a porn store and I checked him while the clerk called police/med. They took over. 3times, no concern about rewards. People should help people if they are able to, And fortunately, a lot of the people here - as well as others I know - will do exactly that. Just part of being human.

Ah, but thanks to psychology, you cannot state with certainty that the thought of advantage didn't lurk in your subconscious, influencing your actions. Perhaps the old lady reminded you of your grandmother, and in the murky depths of your psyche you were hoping for ribbon candy and quarters.

Darth Rotor · 10th February 2008, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by EGarrett

Why do we save people who are in danger?

~~[Because she had a nice rack.~~ Because it makes us feel good to help people.

Try this. Be really depressed. Be down. Then, go and help someone else who you see is in trouble.

You feel better already.

Posts above for possible "in the end, physics" contributions to that feeling.

DR

Dark Jaguar · 10th February 2008, 07:13 PM

Because they want to live. Do I need further reasons?

Ron_Tomkins · 10th February 2008, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by EGarrett

Note: "Because it's the right thing to do" is an unsupported assertion...and thus not a satisfactory answer.

Becaaaauuuuuussseeeee deep down inside we're nothing but self-interested cold blooded miserable people who care about nothing but more power so we can opress the weak ones and gain control of the masses?

rjh01 · 10th February 2008, 11:42 PM

Mining companies should spend big $ to rescue trapped miners because
1. It improves morale
2. It improves employee employer relationships (or at least does not damage them)
3. The miners might be willing to take minor risks which will improve profit for the company.

Soapy Sam · 11th February 2008, 12:16 AM

Because saving people who are not in danger is annoying for all concerned?

TragicMonkey · 11th February 2008, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Mining companies should spend big $ to rescue trapped miners because
1. It improves morale
2. It improves employee employer relationships (or at least does not damage them)
3. The miners might be willing to take minor risks which will improve profit for the company.

4. Not rescuing them alienates the public and that deters investors.

Sometimes it's not that you actually care, it's that you have to pretend to care. And in the end, as long as you do what you ought to, your reasons don't matter so much.

fuelair · 11th February 2008, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

And they still have not found the killer of poor little Jon-Binet have they?

Technically no. After all that was done both accidentally and possibly on purpose to protect the parents and cover/ruin any evidence.

Francesca R · 11th February 2008, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by nails3jesus0

people feel good after they help others. I think empathy is another reason.

Originally Posted by Gagglegnash

Another possibility: Empathy (and possibly mirror neurons).

We see someone in distress, and we feel distress ourselves. Relieving the original distress makes us feel better by relieving our distress AND makes us feel 'good' by reinforcing the group social bond.

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Try this. Be really depressed. Be down. Then, go and help someone else who you see is in trouble.

You feel better already.

Posts above for possible "in the end, physics" contributions to that feeling.

DR

Good proximate reasons but they beg the question of why such reactions have developed. To which the survival advantage of reciprocal giving of assistance mentioned by Gord in Toronto seems to be a good answer.

Ranb · 11th February 2008, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by steverino

.....and the perception was that a large fuss was made over two cute white upper-middle-class tykes because they were not poor minority kids.

A while back when my wife and I were watching the Holloway case unfold on TV, my wife asked me if the media would make a big fuss if she disappeared. I had to smile and tell her that since she was a middle-aged, short, dark, plain looking Thai girl, the media would ignore her unless she was one of Paris Hilton's missing friends. She could not help but notice that it is the young cute blond girls getting most of the attention in the media.

Ranb

HghrSymmetry · 11th February 2008, 06:42 PM

If a behavior results in inreased genetic fitness of the individual (or group) it will probably be selected for.

Dark Jaguar · 11th February 2008, 10:51 PM

There's the well understood biological reason for empathy as an adaptation, and there's good "game theory" reasons as listed above. There's even the "because some other people value them" reason. However, I think of other's lives as just as worth saving, for the same reasons, as my own. I tend to think people are worth saving because they don't want to die. Because, if they die, everything they've done, their dreams, their connections, are all gone forever.

Gord_in_Toronto · 12th February 2008, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Technically no. After all that was done both accidentally and possibly on purpose to protect the parents and cover/ruin any evidence.

Hmm. Do I detect a slight trace of a conspiracy theory there, maybe?

I prefer the "Dallas Police Theory" myself -- pure incompetence.

Lady Lee · 12th February 2008, 10:45 AM

What about good old-fashioned (maybe Catholic) guilt?

What if I didn't approach the guy on the floor at the bus-stop and I was the only person in the vicinity who knew CPR and he died because I was selfish. I would be wracked with guilty feelings.

In fact, this happened to me: I approached the guy on the floor at the bus-stop and he told me to "f**k off". In my professional opinion he was cured.

Modified · 12th February 2008, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Lady Lee

In fact, this happened to me: I approached the guy on the floor at the bus-stop and he told me to "f**k off". In my professional opinion he was cured.

Reminds me of the time I saw the guy in front of me at a stoplight having some sort of seizure. His arms and head were flailing all over the place. I got out to see if I could put his car in park before he rolled into the intersection or something. Then I heard the music.

sphenisc · 12th February 2008, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by EGarrett

Note: "Because it's the right thing to do" is an unsupported assertion...and thus not a satisfactory answer.

Because it's the right thing to do.

I feel no need to satisfy you.

[That may change after a few drinks.]

billydkid · 14th February 2008, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Self interest. We ourselves might be in danger someday, therefore it is in our best interests to foster a culture of helpfulness.

Come on. When you see a child drowning and you instinctly dive in to pull them out - and the vast majority of us would do that - you certainly are not doing the social calculus that you describe. This idea that people don't do things without "reasons" for doing them is incredibly silly. That is part of the reason I find all these discussions about morality so tedious. It is obvious except to a complete moron that people in general are put together in such as way as to naturally care for and about each other. That isn't the only way they are put together, but it is certainly a fundamental aspect of being human. We also have other aspects which are not so beneficial. Hating and loving are both completely human and do not need to be taught.

I think the kind of thinking on which such discussions are based feed into the idiocy of religion and the idea that our actions are all reactions to the opinion that we think "God" or the universe might of us. For some people the substitute for God is society and they hold to the idea that our sensibilities are molded by society. Society certainly can and does effect who we are and how we behave, but we have natural reactions to things that do not come from being taught or guided or socialized.

TragicMonkey · 14th February 2008, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by billydkid

Come on. When you see a child drowning and you instinctly dive in to pull them out - and the vast majority of us would do that - you certainly are not doing the social calculus that you describe. This idea that people don't do things without "reasons" for doing them is incredibly silly. That is part of the reason I find all these discussions about morality so tedious. It is obvious except to a complete moron that people in general are put together in such as way as to naturally care for and about each other. That isn't the only way they are put together, but it is certainly a fundamental aspect of being human. We also have other aspects which are not so beneficial. Hating and loving are both completely human and do not need to be taught.

I think the kind of thinking on which such discussions are based feed into the idiocy of religion and the idea that our actions are all reactions to the opinion that we think "God" or the universe might of us. For some people the substitute for God is society and they hold to the idea that our sensibilities are molded by society. Society certainly can and does effect who we are and how we behave, but we have natural reactions to things that do not come from being taught or guided or socialized.

Just because there are good reasons for something, doesn't mean you have to be aware of what those reasons are. It's called instinct. What matters is that you do the behavior, not that you understand why you do it.

Puppycow · 14th February 2008, 09:47 PM

(DPM)

Puppycow · 14th February 2008, 09:49 PM

For the reward. Increased or reinforced social standing and admiration, at least. There is a payoff.

rjh01 · 14th February 2008, 11:22 PM

A variation on the theme. Why am I a fire warden, whose job it is to save everyone on the floor in any type of emergency where life is at risk?
1. For the training. Amazing what I learn.
2. Supervisory experience.
3. Actually give ORDERS to my managers and expect they be obeyed (It happened. My manager tried to take a cup of coffee down the stairs. Told him to lose the coffee. He did).
4. I learn a lot.

six7s · 15th February 2008, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

...you cannot state with certainty that the thought of advantage didn't lurk in your subconscious...

Originally Posted by HghrSymmetry

...inreased genetic fitness...

Originally Posted by rjh01

1. For the training. Amazing what I learn.

These three ideas resonate with my hunch re the (seemingly) instinctive response to react immediately; practice for when it happens to me and/or those I hold dear (i.e. those most likely to influence the passing of my genes)

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger

TragicMonkey · 15th February 2008, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by six7s

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger

Except when it merely cripples you.

coalesce · 15th February 2008, 06:30 AM

Because if I didn't run around saving people, then I would look ridiculous wearing my red cape and matching boots in public, now wouldn't I?

Michael

six7s · 15th February 2008, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Originally Posted by six7s

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger

Except when it merely cripples you.

I was thinking of 'you' in the plural (i.e. your genetic pool) and stronger in more than simply the trad. physical sense (e.g. determination, resilience, etc.)

TragicMonkey · 15th February 2008, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by six7s

I was thinking of 'you' in the plural (i.e. your genetic pool) and stronger in more than simply the trad. physical sense (e.g. determination, resilience, etc.)

It could be a brain injury, which might affect determination, resilience, etc. Or it could be some annoyingly pedantic person on the internet, chipping, chipping away at your words and neglecting the meat of your argument.

Tony · 15th February 2008, 12:40 PM

Because we live in a place called "civilization". You should join us.

Ron_Tomkins · 16th February 2008, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by sphenisc

Because it's the right thing to do.

I feel no need to satisfy you.

[That may change after a few drinks.]

Nominated.

10th February 2008, 07:56 AM	#1
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,979	Why do we save people who are in danger? Note: "Because it's the right thing to do" is an unsupported assertion...and thus not a satisfactory answer.
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,979	__________________ EG

10th February 2008, 08:09 AM	#2
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,071	Self interest. We ourselves might be in danger someday, therefore it is in our best interests to foster a culture of helpfulness.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

10th February 2008, 08:28 AM	#3
ARubberChickenWithAPulley Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,152	I think TragicMonkey hit part of it above, but I read this great article a couple of months ago that I'll share. It's actually about the Natalie Sarkisyan case, where an insurance company refused to pay for a procedure that they considered risky/experimental/unlikely to work. I don't want to turn this thread into another health care or insurance argument, so please don't the article itself discusses some interesting points about America's attitude towards "rescue." When a health insurer says it won't pay Quote: Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, said there was still no escaping emotion as a factor in U.S. medicine. People here put tremendous effort, he said, into saving trapped miners, little girls in wells, hikers stranded on frigid mountains. "Americans are interested in spending money on things that work," he said, "but we are also a society that does value rescue." And, he said, people want to go the extra mile for children. "Seventeen-year-olds and younger have special moral status," he said. "They're seen as people who, I'll just say it bluntly, deserve more." He said he thought insurers should factor the U.S. penchant for rescue into their budgets, or the rest of us should figure out another way to finance care for people in desperate straits I know saying we have a "penchant for rescue" is perhaps not detailed insight, but I think it is about accurate: along with what TragicMonkey said, we simply have a culture that values happy endings. It's part rational self-interest and part emotional. And, as the above quote alludes to, who is being rescued is definitely important: if it was "convicted-felon drug dealer dirtbag trapped in well," I'd guess it wouldn't get so much attention. At least, anything other than basic rescue attempts would be controversial, IMO.
	Last edited by ARubberChickenWithAPulley; 10th February 2008 at 08:29 AM.

10th February 2008, 09:00 AM	#4
skeptifem is not beauty 2K compliant Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,259	people feel good after they help others. I think empathy is another reason.
	__________________

10th February 2008, 09:09 AM	#5
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,415	Game Theory shows that a group that in which the members co-operate has a slight survival advantage over groups that do not co-operate. This is selected for by Natural Selection and we end up with such things as empathy to enforce it.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

10th February 2008, 09:19 AM	#6
Gagglegnash Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,447	Hi Another possibility: Empathy (and possibly mirror neurons). We see someone in distress, and we feel distress ourselves. Relieving the original distress makes us feel better by relieving our distress AND makes us feel 'good' by reinforcing the group social bond. Just an idea, though.
	__________________ But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -----Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782 Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -----Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

10th February 2008, 11:36 AM	#7
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,071	We also help others because we might get an advantage out of it. The drowning child you save might turn out to have wealthy and grateful parents. You call the paramedics for the old lady having a heart attack, and one of the EMTs turns out to be really quite hot, and available. The stray dog you take in might cough up a diamond ring it swallowed when it lived with Missy Elliot. The universe is a complex series of interlocking events, and while karma may be a crock that doesn't mean that you won't get cash money and lots of tail from being a good person. Not that that's the only reason to be a good person, but hell, who's going to turn down the rewards of virtue?
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

10th February 2008, 12:05 PM	#8
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,916	And then, some people can't not be helpful. No idea why - anymore than I know why I like little kids and they like me (though some evidence makes it seem that I know/intuit little kidness so they see me not as an adult but as a large little kid who plays well). Hopefully there will be no misinterpretation of this - read my posts on weapons if you have any doubts in that area.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,916

10th February 2008, 01:58 PM	#9
steverino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 3,688	This rescuing mentality is sometimes irrational. If it is a cute blonde child, or a pretty girl, or a puppy, or horse, we value the loss (if the rescue does not succeed) more than if it's just a plain old Joe. When I lived in Chicago there was the case of the two, cute (white) "home-alone kids" in Wheaton, Illinois. The parents left them home to go to Vegas, I think. It was a huge story in Chicago at the time-abusive parents, and how could they mistreat the cutie pies, etc. Then the public became enlightened with the reality that thousands of inner-city kids are left home alone in fatherless homes, or left with an aunt or grandmother, who sometimes lose track of who is being taken care of when, and the perception was that a large fuss was made over two cute white upper-middle-class tykes because they were not poor minority kids.
	__________________ "Ferchrissakes I am not Jewish..."- Darth Rotor "Well, my nipples are pink. I've never looked at my own butt-hole, but I hope it's pink too." Mycroft "In the military, a gay man might see a wiener, and we all know that when a gay man sees a wiener, he goes into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust."- Marquis de Carabas

10th February 2008, 02:40 PM	#10
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,415	Originally Posted by steverino This rescuing mentality is sometimes irrational. If it is a cute blonde child, or a pretty girl, or a puppy, or horse, we value the loss (if the rescue does not succeed) more than if it's just a plain old Joe. When I lived in Chicago there was the case of the two, cute (white) "home-alone kids" in Wheaton, Illinois. The parents left them home to go to Vegas, I think. It was a huge story in Chicago at the time-abusive parents, and how could they mistreat the cutie pies, etc. Then the public became enlightened with the reality that thousands of inner-city kids are left home alone in fatherless homes, or left with an aunt or grandmother, who sometimes lose track of who is being taken care of when, and the perception was that a large fuss was made over two cute white upper-middle-class tykes because they were not poor minority kids. And they still have not found the killer of poor little Jon-Binet have they?
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

10th February 2008, 03:04 PM	#11
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,916	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey We also help others because we might get an advantage out of it. The drowning child you save might turn out to have wealthy and grateful parents. You call the paramedics for the old lady having a heart attack, and one of the EMTs turns out to be really quite hot, and available. The stray dog you take in might cough up a diamond ring it swallowed when it lived with Missy Elliot. The universe is a complex series of interlocking events, and while karma may be a crock that doesn't mean that you won't get cash money and lots of tail from being a good person. Not that that's the only reason to be a good person, but hell, who's going to turn down the rewards of virtue? By the same token, my first assistance attempt - in my teens- involved an older black woman who had fallen - I sssisted her up, checked to see that she was ok and went on my way. Was stopped by a younger black man who thanked me - was not hesitant with her but reluctant to be thanked - it is what I do. Not thanks or notice (so why am I telling it here - because only one person on this forum knows who I am and I am not worried about that person passing it on - and it is anecdotal but like a lot of other people I suspect). The next two (non-military) were both adult males who had fallen/were not reasonably concious who I put my recent Red Cross First Aid training to use on re: checking if breathing, able to talk, etc. The first was apparently drunk and police observing took over. The second collapsed in the door of a porn store and I checked him while the clerk called police/med. They took over. 3times, no concern about rewards. People should help people if they are able to, And fortunately, a lot of the people here - as well as others I know - will do exactly that. Just part of being human.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,916

10th February 2008, 03:14 PM	#12
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,559	Originally Posted by EGarrett Note: "Because it's the right thing to do" is an unsupported assertion...and thus not a satisfactory answer. Because someone somewhere probably cares about that person and may not be best pleased to hear that you did nothing and may take steps to indicate how upset they are.

10th February 2008, 03:27 PM	#13
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,071	Originally Posted by fuelair By the same token, my first assistance attempt - in my teens- involved an older black woman who had fallen - I sssisted her up, checked to see that she was ok and went on my way. Was stopped by a younger black man who thanked me - was not hesitant with her but reluctant to be thanked - it is what I do. Not thanks or notice (so why am I telling it here - because only one person on this forum knows who I am and I am not worried about that person passing it on - and it is anecdotal but like a lot of other people I suspect). The next two (non-military) were both adult males who had fallen/were not reasonably concious who I put my recent Red Cross First Aid training to use on re: checking if breathing, able to talk, etc. The first was apparently drunk and police observing took over. The second collapsed in the door of a porn store and I checked him while the clerk called police/med. They took over. 3times, no concern about rewards. People should help people if they are able to, And fortunately, a lot of the people here - as well as others I know - will do exactly that. Just part of being human. Ah, but thanks to psychology, you cannot state with certainty that the thought of advantage didn't lurk in your subconscious, influencing your actions. Perhaps the old lady reminded you of your grandmother, and in the murky depths of your psyche you were hoping for ribbon candy and quarters.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

10th February 2008, 04:32 PM	#14
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,255	Originally Posted by EGarrett Why do we save people who are in danger? ~~[Because she had a nice rack.~~ Because it makes us feel good to help people. Try this. Be really depressed. Be down. Then, go and help someone else who you see is in trouble. You feel better already. Posts above for possible "in the end, physics" contributions to that feeling. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

10th February 2008, 07:13 PM	#15
Dark Jaguar Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,666	Because they want to live. Do I need further reasons?

10th February 2008, 10:19 PM	#16
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 32,009	Originally Posted by EGarrett Note: "Because it's the right thing to do" is an unsupported assertion...and thus not a satisfactory answer. Becaaaauuuuuussseeeee deep down inside we're nothing but self-interested cold blooded miserable people who care about nothing but more power so we can opress the weak ones and gain control of the masses?

10th February 2008, 11:42 PM	#17
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,179	Mining companies should spend big $ to rescue trapped miners because 1. It improves morale 2. It improves employee employer relationships (or at least does not damage them) 3. The miners might be willing to take minor risks which will improve profit for the company.
	__________________ dddffffpppqqqq Want to use your computer for something that will make society better? See this thread for details Folding@home

11th February 2008, 12:16 AM	#18
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Because saving people who are not in danger is annoying for all concerned?
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

11th February 2008, 02:38 AM	#19
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,071	Originally Posted by rjh01 Mining companies should spend big $ to rescue trapped miners because 1. It improves morale 2. It improves employee employer relationships (or at least does not damage them) 3. The miners might be willing to take minor risks which will improve profit for the company. 4. Not rescuing them alienates the public and that deters investors. Sometimes it's not that you actually care, it's that you have to pretend to care. And in the end, as long as you do what you ought to, your reasons don't matter so much.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

11th February 2008, 08:51 AM	#20
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,916	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto And they still have not found the killer of poor little Jon-Binet have they? Technically no. After all that was done both accidentally and possibly on purpose to protect the parents and cover/ruin any evidence.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,916

11th February 2008, 09:11 AM	#21
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 11,825	Originally Posted by nails3jesus0 people feel good after they help others. I think empathy is another reason. Originally Posted by Gagglegnash Another possibility: Empathy (and possibly mirror neurons). We see someone in distress, and we feel distress ourselves. Relieving the original distress makes us feel better by relieving our distress AND makes us feel 'good' by reinforcing the group social bond. Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Try this. Be really depressed. Be down. Then, go and help someone else who you see is in trouble. You feel better already. Posts above for possible "in the end, physics" contributions to that feeling. DR Good proximate reasons but they beg the question of why such reactions have developed. To which the survival advantage of reciprocal giving of assistance mentioned by Gord in Toronto seems to be a good answer.

11th February 2008, 09:18 AM	#22
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,101	Originally Posted by steverino .....and the perception was that a large fuss was made over two cute white upper-middle-class tykes because they were not poor minority kids. A while back when my wife and I were watching the Holloway case unfold on TV, my wife asked me if the media would make a big fuss if she disappeared. I had to smile and tell her that since she was a middle-aged, short, dark, plain looking Thai girl, the media would ignore her unless she was one of Paris Hilton's missing friends. She could not help but notice that it is the young cute blond girls getting most of the attention in the media. Ranb

11th February 2008, 06:42 PM	#23
HghrSymmetry View clearer from above. Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 8,371	If a behavior results in inreased genetic fitness of the individual (or group) it will probably be selected for.

11th February 2008, 10:51 PM	#24
Dark Jaguar Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,666	There's the well understood biological reason for empathy as an adaptation, and there's good "game theory" reasons as listed above. There's even the "because some other people value them" reason. However, I think of other's lives as just as worth saving, for the same reasons, as my own. I tend to think people are worth saving because they don't want to die. Because, if they die, everything they've done, their dreams, their connections, are all gone forever.

12th February 2008, 10:31 AM	#25
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,415	Originally Posted by fuelair Technically no. After all that was done both accidentally and possibly on purpose to protect the parents and cover/ruin any evidence. Hmm. Do I detect a slight trace of a conspiracy theory there, maybe? I prefer the "Dallas Police Theory" myself -- pure incompetence.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

12th February 2008, 10:45 AM	#26
Lady Lee New Blood Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 10	What about good old-fashioned (maybe Catholic) guilt? What if I didn't approach the guy on the floor at the bus-stop and I was the only person in the vicinity who knew CPR and he died because I was selfish. I would be wracked with guilty feelings. In fact, this happened to me: I approached the guy on the floor at the bus-stop and he told me to "f**k off". In my professional opinion he was cured.
Lady Lee New Blood Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 10

12th February 2008, 11:14 AM	#27
Modified Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SW Florida Posts: 4,062	Originally Posted by Lady Lee In fact, this happened to me: I approached the guy on the floor at the bus-stop and he told me to "f**k off". In my professional opinion he was cured. Reminds me of the time I saw the guy in front of me at a stoplight having some sort of seizure. His arms and head were flailing all over the place. I got out to see if I could put his car in park before he rolled into the intersection or something. Then I heard the music.

12th February 2008, 11:51 AM	#28
sphenisc Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 3,749	Originally Posted by EGarrett Note: "Because it's the right thing to do" is an unsupported assertion...and thus not a satisfactory answer. Because it's the right thing to do. I feel no need to satisfy you. [That may change after a few drinks.]
sphenisc Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 3,749

14th February 2008, 10:39 AM	#29
billydkid Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Blanchester, OH Posts: 4,930	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Self interest. We ourselves might be in danger someday, therefore it is in our best interests to foster a culture of helpfulness. Come on. When you see a child drowning and you instinctly dive in to pull them out - and the vast majority of us would do that - you certainly are not doing the social calculus that you describe. This idea that people don't do things without "reasons" for doing them is incredibly silly. That is part of the reason I find all these discussions about morality so tedious. It is obvious except to a complete moron that people in general are put together in such as way as to naturally care for and about each other. That isn't the only way they are put together, but it is certainly a fundamental aspect of being human. We also have other aspects which are not so beneficial. Hating and loving are both completely human and do not need to be taught. I think the kind of thinking on which such discussions are based feed into the idiocy of religion and the idea that our actions are all reactions to the opinion that we think "God" or the universe might of us. For some people the substitute for God is society and they hold to the idea that our sensibilities are molded by society. Society certainly can and does effect who we are and how we behave, but we have natural reactions to things that do not come from being taught or guided or socialized.
	__________________ Wasting away in Blanchester.

14th February 2008, 01:00 PM	#30
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,071	Originally Posted by billydkid Come on. When you see a child drowning and you instinctly dive in to pull them out - and the vast majority of us would do that - you certainly are not doing the social calculus that you describe. This idea that people don't do things without "reasons" for doing them is incredibly silly. That is part of the reason I find all these discussions about morality so tedious. It is obvious except to a complete moron that people in general are put together in such as way as to naturally care for and about each other. That isn't the only way they are put together, but it is certainly a fundamental aspect of being human. We also have other aspects which are not so beneficial. Hating and loving are both completely human and do not need to be taught. I think the kind of thinking on which such discussions are based feed into the idiocy of religion and the idea that our actions are all reactions to the opinion that we think "God" or the universe might of us. For some people the substitute for God is society and they hold to the idea that our sensibilities are molded by society. Society certainly can and does effect who we are and how we behave, but we have natural reactions to things that do not come from being taught or guided or socialized. Just because there are good reasons for something, doesn't mean you have to be aware of what those reasons are. It's called instinct. What matters is that you do the behavior, not that you understand why you do it.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

14th February 2008, 09:47 PM	#31
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,743	(DPM)
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22 Last edited by Puppycow; 14th February 2008 at 09:49 PM.

14th February 2008, 09:49 PM	#32
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,743	For the reward. Increased or reinforced social standing and admiration, at least. There is a payoff.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

14th February 2008, 11:22 PM	#33
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,179	A variation on the theme. Why am I a fire warden, whose job it is to save everyone on the floor in any type of emergency where life is at risk? 1. For the training. Amazing what I learn. 2. Supervisory experience. 3. Actually give ORDERS to my managers and expect they be obeyed (It happened. My manager tried to take a cup of coffee down the stairs. Told him to lose the coffee. He did). 4. I learn a lot.
	__________________ dddffffpppqqqq Want to use your computer for something that will make society better? See this thread for details Folding@home

15th February 2008, 12:15 AM	#34
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 8,710	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey ...you cannot state with certainty that the thought of advantage didn't lurk in your subconscious... Originally Posted by HghrSymmetry ...inreased genetic fitness... Originally Posted by rjh01 1. For the training. Amazing what I learn. These three ideas resonate with my hunch re the (seemingly) instinctive response to react immediately; practice for when it happens to me and/or those I hold dear (i.e. those most likely to influence the passing of my genes) What doesn't kill you makes you stronger
	__________________ Evolution and the rest of reality fascinates the be-jeebus out of me! Last edited by six7s; 15th February 2008 at 12:25 AM.

15th February 2008, 02:35 AM	#35
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,071	Originally Posted by six7s What doesn't kill you makes you stronger Except when it merely cripples you.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.