Should Homeopathy be illegal?

[Dub]

Given the results of the Horizon tests, should it now be illegal to advertise the benefits of Homeopathic cures? Would this not constitue false advertising? How can u call pure water a 'medicine.?

A quick look on a high street pharamacy shows they are still selling homeopathic 'medicines' by the bucket load.



How about some 30c Sulphur tablets! Although all the water in the world is still not enough to achieve this level of dilution, its bound to work cause someone said it once made them feel better!



From the Boots website:

Quote:

Homoeopathy views the patient as a whole and treats the individual rather than just the disease. Homoeopathic remedies are ditutions of a concentrated solution and are used in the smallest quantities. They are available for a wide range of conditions from cuts and bruises to stomach upsets and colds

Yes, so small that there's not even a single molecule of the original solution left.

No for some people it works so let it stay available. Not all water just diluted to start the bodides healing process, you treat same with same that cures the whole with little side effects unlike modern medicines.

Me.

[Ian Osborne]

To declare homeopathy illegal would be to set a dangerous precedent that might impede legitimate research into disputed phenomena, though practitioners should certainly be expected to provide evidence for their claims, just like everyone else.

I wonder if it's worth complaining to Trading Standards about sales of homeopathic overpriced H2O?

[Dub]

Quote:

No for some people it works so let it stay available. Not all water just diluted to start the bodides healing process, you treat same with same that cures the whole with little side effects unlike modern medicines.

Might I ask, did u see the Horizon programme? If not let me point one thing out. A dilution of 6c is the equivelnt of one drop of the original solution in about 26 swimming pools. By 10c its like 1 drop in the Atlantic. By 15c its less than one drop in all the water in the world. Anything higher than this almost certainly contains not even a single molecule of the original solution. Therefore, it's pure water. Placebos also 'work' for some people. Would you buy a lump of pure sugar off me if I make up something that it can cure for you?

[Dub]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
To declare homeopathy illegal would be to set a dangerous precedent that might impede legitimate research into disputed phenomena, though practitioners should certainly be expected to provide evidence for their claims, just like everyone else.

I wonder if it's worth complaining to Trading Standards about sales of homeopathic overpriced H2O?

I agreee. When I said 'illegal' I meant to advertise Homeoptahy as a medicine that cures what it claims to. As there is no eveidence, infact evidence to the contrary, I dont think ppl shoud be allowed to make such claims.

[Trollbane]

I agree with Dub here. I think that they should be liable for false advertising... Unless they add disclaimers in the product clearly stating something like: "Warning the product you are buying at 100$/dose does not contain any medicinal properties" or something similar..

[Ian Osborne]

And if water can 'remember' elements it once contained and pass this memory onto water molecules next to it, during its natural evaporation-and-rainfall cycle, all the water in the world must have come into contact with every chemical and mineral on the Earth. Why not just get a beaker of tap water and call it homeopathy?

[Dub]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
And if water can 'remember' elements it once contained and pass this memory onto water molecules next to it, during its natural evaporation-and-rainfall cycle, all the water in the world must have come into contact with every chemical and mineral on the Earth. Why not just get a beaker of tap water and call it homeopathy?

Good point. Infact rainfall may be a more concerntrated Homeopath than a 30c solution.

[Segnosaur]

Quote:

Originally posted by Trollbane
I agree with Dub here. I think that they should be liable for false advertising... Unless they add disclaimers in the product clearly stating something like: "Warning the product you are buying at 100$/dose does not contain any medicinal properties" or something similar..

How about some addtional warnings:

- May cause increased urination
- May reduce the size of your bank account
- May cause elmination of brain cells (oops, that probably would have to have happened before using the stuff.)

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
No for some people it works so let it stay available. Not all water just diluted to start the bodides healing process, you treat same with same that cures the whole with little side effects unlike modern medicines.

A medieval concept with no support. The problem is that people spend money on expensive placebos and might not see a real doc if they have a real problem. Accurate labeling should happen at least.

[3-toed-sloth]

I don't think homeopathic drugs should be illegal. That would only feed the drug company consipiacy, but making false claims about homeopathic drugs should be illegal.

I think that homeopathic remedies should undergo clinical testing if they are going to claim that they are beneficial.

I would like to see some kind of statement about their effectiveness on every bottle of the stuff.

In three inch tall black letters, something like

"This is a placebo"

"This is pure water"

"It has been demonstrated that these remedies are no more benefical than placebos"

[Jon_in_london]

I agree with the false advertising thing, you shouldnt be able to make claims that are unfounded.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dub


Might I ask, did u see the Horizon programme? If not let me point one thing out. A dilution of 6c is the equivelnt of one drop of the original solution in about 26 swimming pools. By 10c its like 1 drop in the Atlantic. By 15c its less than one drop in all the water in the world. Anything higher than this almost certainly contains not even a single molecule of the original solution. Therefore, it's pure water. Placebos also 'work' for some people. Would you buy a lump of pure sugar off me if I make up something that it can cure for you?

No I didnt, I know about homeopathy and how it does things to the body to provoke healing.
Not disputing it is diluted, the orginal ingrediant is there still even if microscopic proportions.
Yes placebos work in certain cases, that should say something at least.
when you have exhausted al modern medicines and sufferig from them, homeopathy or herbalsim fills that void, porbably find using them gives the body a chance to recover from an onslaught from modern medicines, why knock it if it helps somebody?
You cant agree that the side effects of modern medicines are the best way forward can you?
Half of all illnesses around are caused by the side effects of modern medicines, Celebrex for one should be banned for what it does to you, I am sure it is in the States?

Would I buy a sugarcube off you, for one no I hate sugar its horrid.
Would I buy an altenative medicine to help relive myself of something that I would have to look into first, I will always stick with the natural way, seeing as I know a bit about such things, I would be skeptical of any new claim without researching it first, the end of the day it is upto me to make that choice surely?


Me

I vote to ban all homeopathic remedies and anything else in the alt med line that has not proven it efficacy with controlled double blind tests supervised by the FDA or an equivalent agency in Europe or Japan.

[Dub]

Quote:

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
[b]
No I didnt, I know about homeopathy and how it does things to the body to provoke healing.
Not disputing it is diluted, the orginal ingrediant is there still even if microscopic proportions.

Sorry but you are wrong. In a 30c, and probably in anything over about 20c, there is not even a single molecule of the original solution left. Scientific FACT.

Quote:

when you have exhausted al modern medicines and sufferig from them, homeopathy or herbalsim fills that void, porbably find using them gives the body a chance to recover from an onslaught from modern medicines, why knock it if it helps somebody?

Modern medicine has far from been exhausted. If u think taking pure water gives the body chance to recover, why not just drink tap water?

Quote:

You cant agree that the side effects of modern medicines are the best way forward can you?

If ever i get seriously ill ill go to a proper doctor for some of the most modern medicine he has.

Quote:

Half of all illnesses around are caused by the side effects of modern medicines.

And your source of this data is where?

Quote:

I will always stick with the natural way, seeing as I know a bit about such things, I would be skeptical of any new claim without researching it first, the end of the day it is uptp me to make that choice surely?

It would appear you know less than you think.

Ive now changed my offer to you, will you buy some pure water off me if I tell you it can cure anything you want it to?

PS Most Homepathic remedies are pure water dissolved on those sugar cubes you hate so much.

Quote:

Originally posted by JRWoodward
I vote to ban all homeopathic remedies and anything else in the alt med line that has not proven it efficacy with controlled double blind tests supervised by the FDA or an equivalent agency in Europe or Japan.

You going to including herbalism, colour therapy, reiki, crystal healing, aromatherapy, etc too?


me

[Foodbunny]

Anything being sold with claims to healing/curing people should have to undergo the same testing as any modern medicine. I don't see any compelling reason why homeopathy or herbs shouldn't be held to the same standards.

[orwell huxley]

Quote:

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
No I didnt, I know about homeopathy and how it does things to the body to provoke healing.

Well, please explain to those of us who are ignorant.

Quote:

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
Half of all illnesses around are caused by the side effects of modern medicines

Did you make this up?

Dub I didnt say I took them, please dont take me out of context, I know a bit about homeopathy, I know far more on killer plants which is my pet hobby.

me

[Dub]

Quote:

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
Dub I didnt say I took them, pleasse dont take me out of context, I know a bit about homeopathy, I know far more on killer plants which is my pet hobby.

You claimed that even in the most diltuted homeopathic remedies there is still some molecules of the original solution left, which there is not. Thats pretty fundamental to knowledge of homeopathy.

The only reason why the Horizon experiment did not go well was that there was major dilution. Could homeopathy work without dilution, it is possible. All the Horizon program proved was that dilution and homeopathy do not mix. If you dilute so much that you can not even see the original substance, then the substance is ineffective no matter what!

Quote:

Originally posted by orwell huxley
Well, please explain to those of us who are ignorant.
Did you make this up?

first half can do if your prepared to learn.

second half I wish I had unfortantly its true, many illness treated and the then sideffects left are caused by modern medinicines not all illnesses.
take for example a depressive on valium, the side effects kick cant sleep, get sleeping pills, then get headaches, take more and so on and so forth. The orignal complaint has now become a multitude of them.

me

Nurofem otc headache pill, take it more than 3 days and your an addict. Coming off that is far worse than going cold turkey on heroin.


Media article on Uk's growing OTC addictions

No way am i an expert it this field, I know coz I have been down this road. I am a classified addict and addict to perscriptions drugs ie pain killers, I off them now, but it mean I can never take any form of pain killers again. Just like alcholism your cant drink I cant take pills. I am left with chronic pain from op and subsequent damage from prescriptive drugs. Hey any relief is welcome mine is I learn about dangerous plants it helps me ge through the day.
As I have no help fom modern medicines , whats left but the natural way?

ME

[Dub]

Quote:

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
The only reason why the Horizon experiment did not go well was that there was major dilution. Could homeopathy work without dilution, it is possible. All the Horizon program proved was that dilution and homeopathy do not mix. If you dilute so much that you can not even see the original substance, then the substance is ineffective no matter what!

The fundamental basis of homeopathy is the dilution process. Infact, it is claimed the more diltue the better it works. 'Modern medicine' often uses the idea of small amounts of the 'cause' of an illness as a cure. For example,a very small dose of some diseases allows the body to become immune to a full blown attack. Also similar bacteria to that of the disease can create immunity. You've probably heard of the smallpox/cowpox story.

[Dub]

Quote:

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower

Asi have no help fom modern medicnes , whats left but the natural way?

You claim you've had no help, but what would your life be like if you had taken no modern medicine at all?

[Ian Osborne]

Quote:

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic
The only reason why the Horizon experiment did not go well was that there was major dilution. Could homeopathy work without dilution, it is possible. All the Horizon program proved was that dilution and homeopathy do not mix. If you dilute so much that you can not even see the original substance, then the substance is ineffective no matter what!

If there isn't dilution, it isn't homeopathy. I think you need to research what homeopathy is before you decide to support it...

Quote:

Originally posted by Dub


The fundamental basis of homeopathy is the dilution process. Infact, it is claimed the more diltue the better it works. 'Modern medicine' often uses the idea of small amounts of the 'cause' of an illness as a cure. For example,a very small dose of some diseases allows the body to become immune to a full blown attack. Also similar bacteria to that of the disease can create immunity. You've probably heard of the smallpox/cowpox story.

That is true, yet, the less you dilute a substance, the purer it is. The entire theory behind homeopathy is that the electronegativity of the substance is able to cancel out with the diseases electronegativity which in turn kills the diseased tissue and the pathogen causing the disease.

[Dub]

Im sorry but I have no idea about electronegativity and its relevance to homeopathy. Please explain.

Dub the principles of homeopathy is minimum dose, Hahnemans greatest effort to reduce poisionous effects of large doses of medicines in use at the time, such as mecury(his day) in the treatment of syphillis, he investigated diluting them. During this time he found that if medicines were mixed vigorously by striking the bottle against a firm surface in sucession, they became stronger in the effects, even though there was less of the original substance because of dilution. this then led to homeopathys minimum dose principle.
homeopathy is made up by using several tried principle
Like cures Like based on the Totality
Minimum does
Single remedy
Direction of cure.


Can you argue that modern medicine is not diluted as well, because it is.

Me and the hardrives stored previous researched homeopathic material sources gleemed unknown

Quote:

Originally posted by Dub


You claim you've had no help, but what would your life be like if you had taken no modern medicine at all?

I completely agree with you Dub. W/O modern medicine we probably would not even be here today. Homeopathy is just another one of those "alternative health" ideas that has some interesting ideas.

[Dub]

Quote:

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower
Dub the principles of homeopathy is minimum dose, Hahnemans grest effort to reduce poisionous effects of large doses of medicines in use at the time, such as mecury(his day) in the treatment of syphillis, he investigated diluting them. During tjis time he found that if medicines were mixed vigorously by striking the bottle against a firm surface in sucession, they became stronger in the effects, even though ther was less of the original substance because of dilution. /this then led to homeopathys minimum dose principle.
homeopathy i made up using several tried principles.

Let me make myself clearer:

Homeopathy = 100% pure water

[3-toed-sloth]

Quote:

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic


That is true, yet, the less you dilute a substance, the purer it is. The entire theory behind homeopathy is that the electronegativity of the substance is able to cancel out with the diseases electronegativity which in turn kills the diseased tissue and the pathogen causing the disease.

What?

Electronegativity refers to the relative tendancy of an atom to aquire an electon, it has nothing to do with curing diseases.

Oxygen is more electronegative than hydrogen, that is what makes water polar.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dub


Im sorry but I have no idea what electronegativity is. Please explain.

In lamens terms the whole idea behind homeopathy is that everything has a bioelectrical or resonating field. This field can be canceled out by other substances that have the same bioelectric field which in turn kills both substances. Translation: The disease is killed and the substance is neutralized.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dub


Let me make myself clearer:

Homeopathy = 100% pure water

No wrong where is the proof

Me

[Skeptoid]

Quote:

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower


No wrong.

Granted. It's between 99.9999999999% and 100%.

[Dub]

Quote:

Originally posted by radiating-sunflower


No wrong.

Sorry but, it is correct. Do you understand the mathematics behind the labeling "6c" "30c" etc? If not let me quickly explain. 1c = 1 in 100 dilution. 2c = 1 in 10,000, 3c = 1 in 1000000 and so forth.. using 100 as the multiplier. Like I stated at 15c there's not even enough water on Earth to disolve one drop in. The chance of a 30c solution even containing a single molecule of the original solution are astronomical. It has been shown through careful analysis that such solutions do not contain even a single molecule of the original solution.

Quote:

Originally posted by chessmanskeptic


In lamens terms the whole idea behind homeopathy is that everything has a bioelectrical or resonating field. This field can be canceled out by other substances that have the same bioelectric field which in turn kills both substances. Translation: The disease is killed and the substance is neutralized.

Produce a fever to kill a fever.
example pervuvian bark aka cinchona bark(quinine) produces same efect as malaria, if yu have malaria and take this(AND FOR GODS SAKE DONT DO IT WITHOUT SEEKING MEDICAL ADVICE FIRST) it will like the malaria "similars"

orthodox medicine kill the sympton not cure it, by blocking nerve signals."opposite"

Me as in plant knowledge plus hardrives stored data on homeopathy, source unknown.

[Soapy Sam]

I have a quibble regarding all this business about 100% pure water.
I don't think there's any such thing.

At the very least there must be some air dissolved in it, not to mention vapour pressure ablation of the container surface.

I demand a recount.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dub


Sorry but, it is correct. Do you understand the mathematics behind the labeling "6c" "30c" etc? If not let me quickly explain. 1c = 1 in 100 dilution. 2c = 1 in 10,000, 3c = 1 in 1000000 and so forth.. using 100 as the multiplier. Like I stated at 15c there's not even enough water on Earth to disolve one drop in. The chance of a 30c solution even containing a single molecule of the original solution are astronomical. It has been shown through careful analysis that such solutions do not contain even a single molecule of the original solution.

so one bottle horison tested and that means all are the same? NO pure and simple, ever heard of staged tests?
I hate maths.


Me

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
I have a quibble regarding all this business about 100% pure water.
I don't think there's any such thing.

At the very least there must be some air dissolved in it, not to mention vapour pressure ablation of the container surface.

I demand a recount.

LMAO not pure water its been through things and been peed on by some form of life or chemically added too.

Me

[Dub]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
I have a quibble regarding all this business about 100% pure water.
I don't think there's any such thing.

At the very least there must be some air dissolved in it, not to mention vapour pressure ablation of the container surface.

I demand a recount.

Obivoulsy no water is 100% pure. That just a way of sayin normal everyday tape water grade.

Quote:

so one bottle horison tested and that means all are the same? NO pure and simple, ever heard of staged tests?

The horizon test was not based on one bottle. Infact ot was probably about the most rigorus scientific test that can be done. Also, its results repeated the findings of an eariler test that debunked a false experiment.

Dont hate maths, its done an awful lot for you.