Friend looking for 'healing' from a psychic

sleepy_lioness · 21st February 2008, 05:56 AM

Hello - first thread so bear with me ...

I'm a long-standing skeptic. I'd like some advice about dealing with a close friend of mine, who I care about. She's had a difficult time in the last couple of years with serious family problems, etc, and it looks to me like she's gradually drifting into woo.

At first she read books on crystal healing and angel therapy, alongside having actual psychotherapy. She also tried tarot readings and palm readings. Now she's got into 'psychic healing', and I'm more worried.

She seems to be becoming attached to a woman called Sue Allen (can't post web links yet). This woman appears to me to be especially harmful because she is a qualified psychotherapist and mixes that in with her psychic woo stuff. I think that the psychotherapy my friend had before was pretty bad for her - encouraged her to ruminate on her problems - and this could well be worse. I've tried to gently encourage her towards evidence-based talking therapies (CBT and the like) but she says that she wants something more 'spiritual'.

Does anyone have any advice or experience to share on how - if it's possible - to dissuade her? If not, on what are particular danger signs and how to deal with them? I'm currently trying being non-judgemental, just listening to her, letting her know I'm here if she wants to talk ... but I also think she's started to distance from me a bit, and that's painful

blauregen · 21st February 2008, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

She seems to be becoming attached to a woman called Sue Allen (can't post web links yet).

This one?

http://www.sueallentherapies.co.uk/

wahrheit · 21st February 2008, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

She seems to be becoming attached to a woman called Sue Allen (can't post web links yet).

Is it http://www.sueallentherapies.co.uk/ ?

sleepy_lioness · 21st February 2008, 06:12 AM

Yup, that's the one - thanks

blauregen · 21st February 2008, 06:30 AM

It is difficult and likely unwise to give advice on a case you don't know the specifics, so please apply your skepticism to the following very general proposition.

People seeking help from psychics often don't have a specific goal but are mainly seeking emotional support, which a system that proposes benevolent forces around us, like angels, can deliver much easier than a rational methodology for behavioral changes, that is supported by evidence like for example CBT.

If you are worried about her and want to help her, and i assure you that being there for her and prepared to listen to her should the psychics method fail is already a great help, then you should find a rationale and evidence-based method to provide similar emotional support. Poking her that her current point of reference is 'woo', no matter how tactful you do it, is unlikely to achieve this.

The easiest source of emotional support are usually friends, so helping her to broaden her social network might be a possible approach if she is reclusive at the moment.

If this is not the case you will have to find what the actual benefit for her is, and how to provide it in a non-wooish way.

As for Sue Allen: To me it looks as if she simply pandering to a market. From my perspective as a hobby woo-ist, i tend to ascribe some value to spiritual approaches. If the concept of body teth.... eh spiritual influences provides a model for your psychological processes you can work with, then it might be even beneficial for you.

I am disconcerted about her 'medical intuition' though. I don't think that reading chakras or looking inside the body by psychic means is an accurate diagnostic tool for possible illnesses.

Lilith · 21st February 2008, 08:45 AM

Imagine having the opposite problem. I have had some minor medical issues this year that I've been trying to tackle methodically - seeing different medical specialists etc (joint related, mostly, no definitive reason determined yet, but not autoimmune suspected). My dear friend, a nurse practitoner, who does dream interpretation and leans toward the woo side more than I can appreciate, has tried to coax me toward a more homeopathic approach. I've learned to keep quiet about my medical issues with her. Then there's my woo-ish sister who has aggressive RA, and sends me articles about people like Mercola and other links to wooish-treatments she thinks I should consider. Neither is over-the-top with these things to me because they know I am anti-woo, but they do bring it up now and again. It's a delicate dance to explain again and again to them why I won't be taking their advice without alienating them or allowing myself to become too alienated from them. So far, so good.

Gord_in_Toronto · 21st February 2008, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by blauregen

This one?

http://www.sueallentherapies.co.uk/

I hear loud whistling -- Woo, Woo, Woo, Woooooo!

Sue's "degrees" seem to be from the College of Psychic Studies as she says on her website "I qualified as a healer with the National Federation of Spiritual Healers and with the College of Psychic Studies in 1999. I gained a Diploma in Analytical Psychology and Healing with Distinction in 2000 and an MA in Psychotherapy and Healing in 2004."

I suppose that if any of these came from a real unisversity she would be proud to say so.

I note as part of the qualifications for courses at the "College" that, "No persons using recreational or mind altering drugs on a regular basis can be considered for courses held at the College." Thank the IPU for that. We wouldn't want any spaced out spiritual healers. As they said on Ghostbusters -- "Don't cross the beams!".

chillzero · 21st February 2008, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

Does anyone have any advice or experience to share on how - if it's possible - to dissuade her? If not, on what are particular danger signs and how to deal with them? I'm currently trying being non-judgemental, just listening to her, letting her know I'm here if she wants to talk ... but I also think she's started to distance from me a bit, and that's painful

I have some experience in this, which I wrote about in both articles found here:
http://www.skeptics.org.uk/new_age.php

I don't know if they'll help, but the second of the two should explain why I think you are right to be worried. I went through sheer hell getting free of the issues made in my life and emotional stability. Some still affect me in unguarded moments.

You are doing the right thing in being available and supportive to her. You really don't want to come across as argumentative and judgemental. I'll have a hunt about to see if anyone has looked specifically at Sue Allen, because the best approach if she does open up enough to listen to you, is to address specific claims with their respective specific failures.

Please feel free to PM as well.

DRBUZZ0 · 21st February 2008, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

Hello - first thread so bear with me ...

I'm a long-standing skeptic. I'd like some advice about dealing with a close friend of mine, who I care about. She's had a difficult time in the last couple of years with serious family problems, etc, and it looks to me like she's gradually drifting into woo.
<snip>

Gradually drifting into woo? From what you say it doesn't sound like she's gradually drifting into it. It sounds a lot more like she's well into the thick of woo.

I've delt with this before and it's really hard when people are so into this whole thing that they can't see the total lack of logic from it. I would be honest about how much you care and tell her that you would like to help her deal with the crap in her life because she's your friend. Then try to offer some kind of logical and non-woo solution to improve things. Even if it is only small, if you can effectively help her with one aspect of things or point her in the right direction it will gain some credability. You can then say "See? that was a lot more helpful than crystal healing. Maybe you should reconsider things"

Above all else I'd come out very strongly and say you are upset by seeing a friend in her situation and you feel you want to help her with things. I don't mean to be invasive about the more personal things, but offer anything and insist that she let you do whatever you can. It'll show your concern and motive

blauregen · 22nd February 2008, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

I suppose that if any of these came from a real unisversity she would be proud to say so.

She is.

Quote:

I worked in Social Services for a total of 25 years. I qualified as a psychodynamic psychotherapist in April 2000 and gained an MA in Psychotherapy and Healing through the Society of Psychology and Healing with Middlesex University in January 2004.

sleepy_lioness · 23rd February 2008, 01:31 AM

Hmmm ... that'll be the Middlesex University that affiliates various woo-y 'centres' including the Asante Academy for Traditional Chinese Medicine which, among other things, trains healthcare professionals in acupuncture, and which offers a 'BSc' in Complementary Health Sciences (with optional Ayurveda element)?

Thanks for all the advice. I think the best idea is just to remain supportive and try to be a good friend. Luckily she's not of the evangelical wooish type - she'll tell me what she's doing, but never pushes me to join in.

Chillzero - thanks for those articles, very interesting. I kind of related to the one about a blame the victim culture - I had something similar in my own Christian upbringing - you weren't supposed to complain about anything because everything was sent for a purpose by a God who loved you ... I do worry about this for my friend too, especially as she's also into The Secret. Grr.

chillzero · 23rd February 2008, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

Chillzero - thanks for those articles, very interesting. I kind of related to the one about a blame the victim culture - I had something similar in my own Christian upbringing - you weren't supposed to complain about anything because everything was sent for a purpose by a God who loved you ... I do worry about this for my friend too, especially as she's also into The Secret. Grr.

That's very disturbing, because The Secret is about exactly those beliefs that made my life so much hell. Please, just carry on as you are - be a good friend, and most of all listen to her. Listen for those signs that she feels in any way responsible for anything negative that may be happening to her.

Listen out for any 'factual' claims that can be checked on - post them here and we'll find you the research information that disproves anything that has been examined. This forum is an amazing resource.

Maybe, if your friend feels strongly about her beliefs you could ask her to join up and join you here in this thread. I know that sometimes hard-core skeptics jump on believers who come here - but most often this is when the believer jumps in with assumptions and calling everyone close-minded, and refusing to pay any attention to answers that people may provide.

If you think she can handle honestly discussing her beliefs, starting in this thread, I am reasonably certain she will be given a welcome reception. You've seen my story - I came here to prove the close-minded skeptics wrong. I was challenged and questioned, but I didn't have a friend like you. (Moderation has been stepped up a little since those days as well, so personal attacks are definitely going to be prevented / actioned). I'm still here, and I'm all the better for it.

blauregen · 23rd February 2008, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

Hmmm ... that'll be the Middlesex University that affiliates various woo-y 'centres' including the Asante Academy for Traditional Chinese Medicine which, among other things, trains healthcare professionals in acupuncture, and which offers a 'BSc' in Complementary Health Sciences (with optional Ayurveda element)?

Likely yes. 'Real university' apparently does not equate doctrinal purity.

Gord_in_Toronto · 23rd February 2008, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by blauregen

Likely yes. 'Real university' apparently does not equate doctrinal purity.

But it should equate with accreditation shold it not? I can't find a single reference to UKAS on their website.

The Atheist · 23rd February 2008, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

Thanks for all the advice. I think the best idea is just to remain supportive and try to be a good friend. Luckily she's not of the evangelical wooish type - she'll tell me what she's doing, but never pushes me to join in.

That's probably the best plan - who knows, it may even help her.

There's no doubting the placebo effect of homeopathy and psychic healing, so do as you say - be there if she needs you, be non-judgemental and wait & see.

After all, the choices are probably between going to the psychotherapsychic or going to a doctor and being handed a bottle of bennies.

blauregen · 24th February 2008, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

But it should equate with accreditation shold it not? I can't find a single reference to UKAS on their website.

For the sake of judging qualifications it should. I am not from the UK, so I don't know what the pertinent regulations and customs are. Is UKAS-accreditation mandatory for institutes of higher learning in the UK, and is it usually displayed on their websites?

sleepy_lioness · 24th February 2008, 02:18 AM

FWIW, Middlesex is certainly a 'proper' university, accredited to all the necessary bodies. UK institutions don't tend to display their accreditations because they don't feel the need - it's not like the States where there are lots of unaccredited courses. Basically, everyone in the UK applies for undergraduate entry to university through a centralised system, and the only courses that make it onto the system are accredited.

Middlesex is one of the former polytechnic colleges that became a university in the 80s and 90s - IIRC, it's an amalgamation of several colleges and teacher training institutions (my mother trained in one of them back in the 60s). So it's not a top university but it's respectable.

However, it's also one of the few that offers Bachelor of Science qualifications in CAM (along, IIRC, with the University of Westminster). This is pretty outrageous; David Colquhoun among others has drawn attention to it.

I imagine that this psychic probably *has* got a qualification in psychotherapy through Middlesex. Given the weirdness of most psychotherapy training (another beef of mine, for another day perhaps) I'd imagine it's quite compatible with woo.

blauregen · 24th February 2008, 11:48 PM

Thank you for the clarification.

Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness

However, it's also one of the few that offers Bachelor of Science qualifications in CAM (along, IIRC, with the University of Westminster). This is pretty outrageous; David Colquhoun among others has drawn attention to it.

I would have to know the curriculum to decide whether i think that's bad.

Personally i found the german regulation that alternative practicioners have to undergo an examination by the local health authority before they are allowed to practice a good idea. It guarantees that they have a basic understanding of conventional medicine.

I wonder whether in research or actual treatment the reverse is true. That a thorough knowledge of alternative approaches and their limitations could be helpful for a medical practicioner (in informing their patients,evaluating information from referring non-medical practicioners,and in deciding where alternative approaches could help) or researcher (in evaluating alternative medicine).

If I don't misread the wikipedia entry,CAM-training by university and medical colleges is rather widespread.

Regarding a scientific degree in psychotherapy, I am unsure what it is worth. Since the whole field consists mainly of interpersonal interventions which have to be personalized (yes, that's the same excuse the homeopaths use

), it doesn't lend itself very well to scientific scrutinity and evidence based testing. Consequently evidence based studies are rare and the efficacy of most systems seems poorly verified.

21st February 2008, 05:56 AM	#1
sleepy_lioness Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 476	Friend looking for 'healing' from a psychic Hello - first thread so bear with me ... I'm a long-standing skeptic. I'd like some advice about dealing with a close friend of mine, who I care about. She's had a difficult time in the last couple of years with serious family problems, etc, and it looks to me like she's gradually drifting into woo. At first she read books on crystal healing and angel therapy, alongside having actual psychotherapy. She also tried tarot readings and palm readings. Now she's got into 'psychic healing', and I'm more worried. She seems to be becoming attached to a woman called Sue Allen (can't post web links yet). This woman appears to me to be especially harmful because she is a qualified psychotherapist and mixes that in with her psychic woo stuff. I think that the psychotherapy my friend had before was pretty bad for her - encouraged her to ruminate on her problems - and this could well be worse. I've tried to gently encourage her towards evidence-based talking therapies (CBT and the like) but she says that she wants something more 'spiritual'. Does anyone have any advice or experience to share on how - if it's possible - to dissuade her? If not, on what are particular danger signs and how to deal with them? I'm currently trying being non-judgemental, just listening to her, letting her know I'm here if she wants to talk ... but I also think she's started to distance from me a bit, and that's painful

21st February 2008, 06:09 AM	#3
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,591	Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness She seems to be becoming attached to a woman called Sue Allen (can't post web links yet). Is it http://www.sueallentherapies.co.uk/ ?
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,591	__________________ For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. D. Adams -- THHGTTG You're a sick man. The Atheist

21st February 2008, 06:30 AM	#5
blauregen Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 299	It is difficult and likely unwise to give advice on a case you don't know the specifics, so please apply your skepticism to the following very general proposition. People seeking help from psychics often don't have a specific goal but are mainly seeking emotional support, which a system that proposes benevolent forces around us, like angels, can deliver much easier than a rational methodology for behavioral changes, that is supported by evidence like for example CBT. If you are worried about her and want to help her, and i assure you that being there for her and prepared to listen to her should the psychics method fail is already a great help, then you should find a rationale and evidence-based method to provide similar emotional support. Poking her that her current point of reference is 'woo', no matter how tactful you do it, is unlikely to achieve this. The easiest source of emotional support are usually friends, so helping her to broaden her social network might be a possible approach if she is reclusive at the moment. If this is not the case you will have to find what the actual benefit for her is, and how to provide it in a non-wooish way. As for Sue Allen: To me it looks as if she simply pandering to a market. From my perspective as a hobby woo-ist, i tend to ascribe some value to spiritual approaches. If the concept of body teth.... eh spiritual influences provides a model for your psychological processes you can work with, then it might be even beneficial for you. I am disconcerted about her 'medical intuition' though. I don't think that reading chakras or looking inside the body by psychic means is an accurate diagnostic tool for possible illnesses.
	Last edited by blauregen; 21st February 2008 at 06:56 AM.

21st February 2008, 10:30 AM	#7
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,417	Originally Posted by blauregen This one? http://www.sueallentherapies.co.uk/ I hear loud whistling -- Woo, Woo, Woo, Woooooo! Sue's "degrees" seem to be from the College of Psychic Studies as she says on her website "I qualified as a healer with the National Federation of Spiritual Healers and with the College of Psychic Studies in 1999. I gained a Diploma in Analytical Psychology and Healing with Distinction in 2000 and an MA in Psychotherapy and Healing in 2004." I suppose that if any of these came from a real unisversity she would be proud to say so. I note as part of the qualifications for courses at the "College" that, "No persons using recreational or mind altering drugs on a regular basis can be considered for courses held at the College." Thank the IPU for that. We wouldn't want any spaced out spiritual healers. As they said on Ghostbusters -- "Don't cross the beams!".
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

23rd February 2008, 08:32 AM	#14
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,417	Originally Posted by blauregen Likely yes. 'Real university' apparently does not equate doctrinal purity. But it should equate with accreditation shold it not? I can't find a single reference to UKAS on their website.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

21st February 2008, 06:08 AM	#2
blauregen Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 299	Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness She seems to be becoming attached to a woman called Sue Allen (can't post web links yet). This one? http://www.sueallentherapies.co.uk/

21st February 2008, 06:12 AM	#4
sleepy_lioness Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 476	Yup, that's the one - thanks

21st February 2008, 08:45 AM	#6
Lilith Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Eastern US Posts: 289	Imagine having the opposite problem. I have had some minor medical issues this year that I've been trying to tackle methodically - seeing different medical specialists etc (joint related, mostly, no definitive reason determined yet, but not autoimmune suspected). My dear friend, a nurse practitoner, who does dream interpretation and leans toward the woo side more than I can appreciate, has tried to coax me toward a more homeopathic approach. I've learned to keep quiet about my medical issues with her. Then there's my woo-ish sister who has aggressive RA, and sends me articles about people like Mercola and other links to wooish-treatments she thinks I should consider. Neither is over-the-top with these things to me because they know I am anti-woo, but they do bring it up now and again. It's a delicate dance to explain again and again to them why I won't be taking their advice without alienating them or allowing myself to become too alienated from them. So far, so good.

21st February 2008, 12:43 PM	#8
chillzero Domestic Godless Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Top of the world, ma! Posts: 15,235	Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness Does anyone have any advice or experience to share on how - if it's possible - to dissuade her? If not, on what are particular danger signs and how to deal with them? I'm currently trying being non-judgemental, just listening to her, letting her know I'm here if she wants to talk ... but I also think she's started to distance from me a bit, and that's painful I have some experience in this, which I wrote about in both articles found here: http://www.skeptics.org.uk/new_age.php I don't know if they'll help, but the second of the two should explain why I think you are right to be worried. I went through sheer hell getting free of the issues made in my life and emotional stability. Some still affect me in unguarded moments. You are doing the right thing in being available and supportive to her. You really don't want to come across as argumentative and judgemental. I'll have a hunt about to see if anyone has looked specifically at Sue Allen, because the best approach if she does open up enough to listen to you, is to address specific claims with their respective specific failures. Please feel free to PM as well.

21st February 2008, 04:08 PM	#9
DRBUZZ0 Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: The Command Bunker Posts: 3,320	Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness Hello - first thread so bear with me ... I'm a long-standing skeptic. I'd like some advice about dealing with a close friend of mine, who I care about. She's had a difficult time in the last couple of years with serious family problems, etc, and it looks to me like she's gradually drifting into woo. <snip> Gradually drifting into woo? From what you say it doesn't sound like she's gradually drifting into it. It sounds a lot more like she's well into the thick of woo. I've delt with this before and it's really hard when people are so into this whole thing that they can't see the total lack of logic from it. I would be honest about how much you care and tell her that you would like to help her deal with the crap in her life because she's your friend. Then try to offer some kind of logical and non-woo solution to improve things. Even if it is only small, if you can effectively help her with one aspect of things or point her in the right direction it will gain some credability. You can then say "See? that was a lot more helpful than crystal healing. Maybe you should reconsider things" Above all else I'd come out very strongly and say you are upset by seeing a friend in her situation and you feel you want to help her with things. I don't mean to be invasive about the more personal things, but offer anything and insist that she let you do whatever you can. It'll show your concern and motive

22nd February 2008, 12:21 AM	#10
blauregen Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 299	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto I suppose that if any of these came from a real unisversity she would be proud to say so. She is. Quote: I worked in Social Services for a total of 25 years. I qualified as a psychodynamic psychotherapist in April 2000 and gained an MA in Psychotherapy and Healing through the Society of Psychology and Healing with Middlesex University in January 2004.

23rd February 2008, 01:31 AM	#11
sleepy_lioness Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 476	Hmmm ... that'll be the Middlesex University that affiliates various woo-y 'centres' including the Asante Academy for Traditional Chinese Medicine which, among other things, trains healthcare professionals in acupuncture, and which offers a 'BSc' in Complementary Health Sciences (with optional Ayurveda element)? Thanks for all the advice. I think the best idea is just to remain supportive and try to be a good friend. Luckily she's not of the evangelical wooish type - she'll tell me what she's doing, but never pushes me to join in. Chillzero - thanks for those articles, very interesting. I kind of related to the one about a blame the victim culture - I had something similar in my own Christian upbringing - you weren't supposed to complain about anything because everything was sent for a purpose by a God who loved you ... I do worry about this for my friend too, especially as she's also into The Secret. Grr.

23rd February 2008, 01:48 AM	#12
chillzero Domestic Godless Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Top of the world, ma! Posts: 15,235	Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness Chillzero - thanks for those articles, very interesting. I kind of related to the one about a blame the victim culture - I had something similar in my own Christian upbringing - you weren't supposed to complain about anything because everything was sent for a purpose by a God who loved you ... I do worry about this for my friend too, especially as she's also into The Secret. Grr. That's very disturbing, because The Secret is about exactly those beliefs that made my life so much hell. Please, just carry on as you are - be a good friend, and most of all listen to her. Listen for those signs that she feels in any way responsible for anything negative that may be happening to her. Listen out for any 'factual' claims that can be checked on - post them here and we'll find you the research information that disproves anything that has been examined. This forum is an amazing resource. Maybe, if your friend feels strongly about her beliefs you could ask her to join up and join you here in this thread. I know that sometimes hard-core skeptics jump on believers who come here - but most often this is when the believer jumps in with assumptions and calling everyone close-minded, and refusing to pay any attention to answers that people may provide. If you think she can handle honestly discussing her beliefs, starting in this thread, I am reasonably certain she will be given a welcome reception. You've seen my story - I came here to prove the close-minded skeptics wrong. I was challenged and questioned, but I didn't have a friend like you. (Moderation has been stepped up a little since those days as well, so personal attacks are definitely going to be prevented / actioned). I'm still here, and I'm all the better for it.

23rd February 2008, 02:10 AM	#13
blauregen Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 299	Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness Hmmm ... that'll be the Middlesex University that affiliates various woo-y 'centres' including the Asante Academy for Traditional Chinese Medicine which, among other things, trains healthcare professionals in acupuncture, and which offers a 'BSc' in Complementary Health Sciences (with optional Ayurveda element)? Likely yes. 'Real university' apparently does not equate doctrinal purity.

23rd February 2008, 11:48 AM	#15
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Within smelling distance of the Grammar Death Camps Posts: 13,928	Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness Thanks for all the advice. I think the best idea is just to remain supportive and try to be a good friend. Luckily she's not of the evangelical wooish type - she'll tell me what she's doing, but never pushes me to join in. That's probably the best plan - who knows, it may even help her. There's no doubting the placebo effect of homeopathy and psychic healing, so do as you say - be there if she needs you, be non-judgemental and wait & see. After all, the choices are probably between going to the psychotherapsychic or going to a doctor and being handed a bottle of bennies.
	__________________ Jeff Wagg, Communication and Outreach Manager for the James Randi Educational Foundation posted: It is my job to inform other JREF employees about people who wish to do the JREF harm, and you [The Atheist] are one of those.

24th February 2008, 02:11 AM	#16
blauregen Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 299	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto But it should equate with accreditation shold it not? I can't find a single reference to UKAS on their website. For the sake of judging qualifications it should. I am not from the UK, so I don't know what the pertinent regulations and customs are. Is UKAS-accreditation mandatory for institutes of higher learning in the UK, and is it usually displayed on their websites?

24th February 2008, 02:18 AM	#17
sleepy_lioness Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 476	FWIW, Middlesex is certainly a 'proper' university, accredited to all the necessary bodies. UK institutions don't tend to display their accreditations because they don't feel the need - it's not like the States where there are lots of unaccredited courses. Basically, everyone in the UK applies for undergraduate entry to university through a centralised system, and the only courses that make it onto the system are accredited. Middlesex is one of the former polytechnic colleges that became a university in the 80s and 90s - IIRC, it's an amalgamation of several colleges and teacher training institutions (my mother trained in one of them back in the 60s). So it's not a top university but it's respectable. However, it's also one of the few that offers Bachelor of Science qualifications in CAM (along, IIRC, with the University of Westminster). This is pretty outrageous; David Colquhoun among others has drawn attention to it. I imagine that this psychic probably has got a qualification in psychotherapy through Middlesex. Given the weirdness of most psychotherapy training (another beef of mine, for another day perhaps) I'd imagine it's quite compatible with woo.

24th February 2008, 11:48 PM	#18
blauregen Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 299	Thank you for the clarification. Originally Posted by sleepy_lioness However, it's also one of the few that offers Bachelor of Science qualifications in CAM (along, IIRC, with the University of Westminster). This is pretty outrageous; David Colquhoun among others has drawn attention to it. I would have to know the curriculum to decide whether i think that's bad. Personally i found the german regulation that alternative practicioners have to undergo an examination by the local health authority before they are allowed to practice a good idea. It guarantees that they have a basic understanding of conventional medicine. I wonder whether in research or actual treatment the reverse is true. That a thorough knowledge of alternative approaches and their limitations could be helpful for a medical practicioner (in informing their patients,evaluating information from referring non-medical practicioners,and in deciding where alternative approaches could help) or researcher (in evaluating alternative medicine). If I don't misread the wikipedia entry,CAM-training by university and medical colleges is rather widespread. Regarding a scientific degree in psychotherapy, I am unsure what it is worth. Since the whole field consists mainly of interpersonal interventions which have to be personalized (yes, that's the same excuse the homeopaths use ), it doesn't lend itself very well to scientific scrutinity and evidence based testing. Consequently evidence based studies are rare and the efficacy of most systems seems poorly verified.
	Last edited by blauregen; 25th February 2008 at 12:16 AM.