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Piggy · 21st February 2008, 04:51 PM

The Nova documentary Ape Genius showed some pretty remarkable footage of a bonobo named Kanzi who appeared to show some remarkable linguistic ability, including following complex instructions in English without non-verbal cueing.

According to the documentary, Kanzi learned to understand English, to a limited extent, without formal training.

What Kanzi was doing in the film was more complex than, say, what a dog does when we say "Go get your ball".

Kanzi was able to discern subject and object, for instance, and understand purely verbal directional cues.

If this is legit -- and it seemed to be -- this is a tremendous breakthrough.

I've openly criticized much of the previous non-human language experiments with primates on this forum.

But this appears to be a whole nother ball of wax.

Still, I've been out of the field for some years now.

Can anyone here shed more light on the research, the researchers, etc.

For the first time, I'm thinking, wow, we may have a really important new insight here.

drkitten · 23rd February 2008, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

The Nova documentary Ape Genius showed some pretty remarkable footage of a bonobo named Kanzi who appeared to show some remarkable linguistic ability, including following complex instructions in English without non-verbal cueing.

According to the documentary, Kanzi learned to understand English, to a limited extent, without formal training.

What Kanzi was doing in the film was more complex than, say, what a dog does when we say "Go get your ball".

Kanzi was able to discern subject and object, for instance, and understand purely verbal directional cues.

If this is legit -- and it seemed to be -- this is a tremendous breakthrough.

I've openly criticized much of the previous non-human language experiments with primates on this forum.

But this appears to be a whole nother ball of wax.

Still, I've been out of the field for some years now.

Can anyone here shed more light on the research, the researchers, etc.

For the first time, I'm thinking, wow, we may have a really important new insight here.

Sorry, meant to get back to you earlier on this.

Yes, I'm familiar with this stuff. The researcher is Sue Savage-Rumbaugh (whom I've met; nice person, and a good speaker) and she did most of her research at the Yerkes Center in Atlanta, GA, but I think she's now at some new red-state primate zoo in the middle of the US.

I think her work is good, but it's (ahem) controversial. The basic problem is the Clever Hans effect (how do you know that she's not cuing Kanzi to do what she wants?) and the reverse (how do you know that she's not overinterpreting meaningless gestures?)

There's a fairly good book by Sue herself (biased, of course) called Kanzi : The Ape at the Brink of the Human Mind. Personally, I find the Kanzi data to be superficially compelling, but I've never interacted with Kanzi himself, which makes it very difficult for me to have an informed opinion. Remember the problems with the Terri Schiavo videos a while back? Take that interpretation problem, multiply it by a bajillion, square it, and come back to me.....

Piggy · 23rd February 2008, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

The basic problem is the Clever Hans effect

My thoughts, as well.

The mask, while bizarre, mitigated against a CHE, but certainly can't be said to eliminate it.

The complexity of the tasks also pointed to a real understanding of subject, object, etc.

But I would have liked to have seen, for example, variations on the commands, such as putting the keys "on" the refrigerator or "beside" the refrigerator in addition to "in" the refrigerator.

DanishDynamite · 23rd February 2008, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

My thoughts, as well.

The mask, while bizarre, mitigated against a CHE, but certainly can't be said to eliminate it.

The complexity of the tasks also pointed to a real understanding of subject, object, etc.

But I would have liked to have seen, for example, variations on the commands, such as putting the keys "on" the refrigerator or "beside" the refrigerator in addition to "in" the refrigerator.

The "Clever Hans" effect isn't a facor in regard to Kanzi as he regularly recieves commands through earphones given to him by people who are not his daily trainers.

Piggy · 23rd February 2008, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by DanishDynamite

The "Clever Hans" effect isn't a facor in regard to Kanzi as he regularly recieves commands through earphones given to him by people who are not his daily trainers.

Interesting.

If you have any easily accessible resources to cite, please let me know.

I'd be very interested in reading a lot more about this case.

Thanks.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd February 2008, 08:25 PM

Can I just cut and paste all the work I did providing sources on this from the other 2 threads?

Clever Hans is an old research error that is not committed anymore by legit researchers. That's why in the NOVA program when the researcher told the chimp (or bonobo, I've forgotten) to get something from outside and put something in the fridge she wore a wielder's helmut covering her face.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd February 2008, 09:04 PM

Long citation on animal consciousness
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...73#post2248273

Discussion of the age window of opportunity for learning language, when taught from infancy, non-human primates learn language, when taught first to adults, humans and non-human primates do not learn language. This led to some false assumptions about what apes could and could not learn.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...64#post2250764

articulett's post with a links to citations on animal consciousness
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...82#post2236882

post summarizes pages of posts complete with links
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...33#post2239633

One of the summarized posts, bigger font, whole context
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...95#post2218395

Link to Discovery channel special on Ivy and Keeli, two chimps being taught language from birth
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...78#post2219178

Long discussion on language influence on thought with citations from Chomsky and more
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...77#post2223277

Link from articulett showing intelligent crow flick
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...02#post2223402

Dave1001 link on dolphin intelligence
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...70#post2212970

More on the debate about what is really being observed
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...93#post2214193

Clarification, Goodall not Penny what'shername

and a link on major research project on ape language here in WA State
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...61#post2210361

More research links
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...28#post2212928

And then there is the thread Piggy started after seeing the less than scientific quality of the work done by Penny what'shername with her pet gorilla Koko
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65071

It's an excellent thread. My posts start here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...04#post2248304

I think Piggy was correct in his observations on Penny and Koko, but those were poor examples of research. And the errors like Clever Hans have been identified and corrected over 30 years of research. That was something for whatever reason Claus could not get a handle on. In addition, revelations about the window of opportunity for language acquisition in humans led to the changes in the direction of language research in non-human primates.

And better observations are leading us to discover the language used by primates, dolphins and whales, elephants, and the body language of horses and dogs. It is interesting a dog knows many human verbal commands. Only recently have we started recognizing animal languages to the extent we understand them.

Piggy · 24th February 2008, 06:25 AM

Thanks, skeptigirl!

It wasn't unusual for the folks in the "we haven't seen it yet" camp to be criticized as absolutists, but our beef was -- as you say -- with the quality of the research and evidence, rather than any pre-held belief that humans must necessarily be unique in the world.

I think everyone in the field -- and even ex-pats like me -- will be truy excited if we get some genuine new findings that change our thinking.

I do wonder if the choice of species is important. Bonobos, of course, are famous for having a more cooperative and less aggressive culture than chimps, so perhaps that plays into it.

I'm changing jobs right now, so it will probably be a few weeks before I can follow up on all the cites, including the print book referenced by drkitten, but I'm looking forward to it.

Skeptic Ginger · 24th February 2008, 05:52 PM

You are welcome. I actually appreciated your original post on Koko as I had not realized how poor that research was until then.

The research you want to look at is Keeli an Ivy and their clan. Those were primates taught language since birth. That made a significant difference.

Soapy Sam · 25th February 2008, 09:58 AM

Now skeptigirl, please explain the term "wielder's helmut" in human language.

Skeptic Ginger · 25th February 2008, 07:27 PM

Did I post a faux pas?

Ooops, welder's helmet. Wonder why spell check missed it?

Wielder - usually if you put an apostrophe in a word like that spell check doesn't like it.

Piggy · 29th February 2008, 08:59 AM

New stuff on chimps, language, and primate communication:

Chimps May Have A 'Language-ready' Brain

21st February 2008, 04:51 PM	#1
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,715	Non-Human Language: Evidence Now? The Nova documentary Ape Genius showed some pretty remarkable footage of a bonobo named Kanzi who appeared to show some remarkable linguistic ability, including following complex instructions in English without non-verbal cueing. According to the documentary, Kanzi learned to understand English, to a limited extent, without formal training. What Kanzi was doing in the film was more complex than, say, what a dog does when we say "Go get your ball". Kanzi was able to discern subject and object, for instance, and understand purely verbal directional cues. If this is legit -- and it seemed to be -- this is a tremendous breakthrough. I've openly criticized much of the previous non-human language experiments with primates on this forum. But this appears to be a whole nother ball of wax. Still, I've been out of the field for some years now. Can anyone here shed more light on the research, the researchers, etc. For the first time, I'm thinking, wow, we may have a really important new insight here.
	__________________ . How can you expect to be rescued if you don’t put first things first and act proper?

23rd February 2008, 07:53 PM	#3
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,715	Originally Posted by drkitten The basic problem is the Clever Hans effect My thoughts, as well. The mask, while bizarre, mitigated against a CHE, but certainly can't be said to eliminate it. The complexity of the tasks also pointed to a real understanding of subject, object, etc. But I would have liked to have seen, for example, variations on the commands, such as putting the keys "on" the refrigerator or "beside" the refrigerator in addition to "in" the refrigerator.
	__________________ . How can you expect to be rescued if you don’t put first things first and act proper?

23rd February 2008, 08:03 PM	#5
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,715	Originally Posted by DanishDynamite The "Clever Hans" effect isn't a facor in regard to Kanzi as he regularly recieves commands through earphones given to him by people who are not his daily trainers. Interesting. If you have any easily accessible resources to cite, please let me know. I'd be very interested in reading a lot more about this case. Thanks.
	__________________ . How can you expect to be rescued if you don’t put first things first and act proper?

23rd February 2008, 08:25 PM	#6
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Can I just cut and paste all the work I did providing sources on this from the other 2 threads? Clever Hans is an old research error that is not committed anymore by legit researchers. That's why in the NOVA program when the researcher told the chimp (or bonobo, I've forgotten) to get something from outside and put something in the fridge she wore a wielder's helmut covering her face.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

23rd February 2008, 09:04 PM	#7
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Long citation on animal consciousness http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...73#post2248273 Discussion of the age window of opportunity for learning language, when taught from infancy, non-human primates learn language, when taught first to adults, humans and non-human primates do not learn language. This led to some false assumptions about what apes could and could not learn. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...64#post2250764 articulett's post with a links to citations on animal consciousness http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...82#post2236882 post summarizes pages of posts complete with links http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...33#post2239633 One of the summarized posts, bigger font, whole context http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...95#post2218395 Link to Discovery channel special on Ivy and Keeli, two chimps being taught language from birth http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...78#post2219178 Long discussion on language influence on thought with citations from Chomsky and more http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...77#post2223277 Link from articulett showing intelligent crow flick http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...02#post2223402 Dave1001 link on dolphin intelligence http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...70#post2212970 More on the debate about what is really being observed http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...93#post2214193 Clarification, Goodall not Penny what'shername and a link on major research project on ape language here in WA State http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...61#post2210361 More research links http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...28#post2212928 And then there is the thread Piggy started after seeing the less than scientific quality of the work done by Penny what'shername with her pet gorilla Koko http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65071 It's an excellent thread. My posts start here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...04#post2248304 I think Piggy was correct in his observations on Penny and Koko, but those were poor examples of research. And the errors like Clever Hans have been identified and corrected over 30 years of research. That was something for whatever reason Claus could not get a handle on. In addition, revelations about the window of opportunity for language acquisition in humans led to the changes in the direction of language research in non-human primates. And better observations are leading us to discover the language used by primates, dolphins and whales, elephants, and the body language of horses and dogs. It is interesting a dog knows many human verbal commands. Only recently have we started recognizing animal languages to the extent we understand them.
	__________________ (Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.) Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 23rd February 2008 at 09:06 PM.*

23rd February 2008, 02:33 PM	#2
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Piggy The Nova documentary Ape Genius showed some pretty remarkable footage of a bonobo named Kanzi who appeared to show some remarkable linguistic ability, including following complex instructions in English without non-verbal cueing. According to the documentary, Kanzi learned to understand English, to a limited extent, without formal training. What Kanzi was doing in the film was more complex than, say, what a dog does when we say "Go get your ball". Kanzi was able to discern subject and object, for instance, and understand purely verbal directional cues. If this is legit -- and it seemed to be -- this is a tremendous breakthrough. I've openly criticized much of the previous non-human language experiments with primates on this forum. But this appears to be a whole nother ball of wax. Still, I've been out of the field for some years now. Can anyone here shed more light on the research, the researchers, etc. For the first time, I'm thinking, wow, we may have a really important new insight here. Sorry, meant to get back to you earlier on this. Yes, I'm familiar with this stuff. The researcher is Sue Savage-Rumbaugh (whom I've met; nice person, and a good speaker) and she did most of her research at the Yerkes Center in Atlanta, GA, but I think she's now at some new red-state primate zoo in the middle of the US. I think her work is good, but it's (ahem) controversial. The basic problem is the Clever Hans effect (how do you know that she's not cuing Kanzi to do what she wants?) and the reverse (how do you know that she's not overinterpreting meaningless gestures?) There's a fairly good book by Sue herself (biased, of course) called Kanzi : The Ape at the Brink of the Human Mind. Personally, I find the Kanzi data to be superficially compelling, but I've never interacted with Kanzi himself, which makes it very difficult for me to have an informed opinion. Remember the problems with the Terri Schiavo videos a while back? Take that interpretation problem, multiply it by a bajillion, square it, and come back to me.....

23rd February 2008, 08:00 PM	#4
DanishDynamite Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: In the cold Posts: 10,802	Originally Posted by Piggy My thoughts, as well. The mask, while bizarre, mitigated against a CHE, but certainly can't be said to eliminate it. The complexity of the tasks also pointed to a real understanding of subject, object, etc. But I would have liked to have seen, for example, variations on the commands, such as putting the keys "on" the refrigerator or "beside" the refrigerator in addition to "in" the refrigerator. The "Clever Hans" effect isn't a facor in regard to Kanzi as he regularly recieves commands through earphones given to him by people who are not his daily trainers.

24th February 2008, 06:25 AM	#8
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,715	Thanks, skeptigirl! It wasn't unusual for the folks in the "we haven't seen it yet" camp to be criticized as absolutists, but our beef was -- as you say -- with the quality of the research and evidence, rather than any pre-held belief that humans must necessarily be unique in the world. I think everyone in the field -- and even ex-pats like me -- will be truy excited if we get some genuine new findings that change our thinking. I do wonder if the choice of species is important. Bonobos, of course, are famous for having a more cooperative and less aggressive culture than chimps, so perhaps that plays into it. I'm changing jobs right now, so it will probably be a few weeks before I can follow up on all the cites, including the print book referenced by drkitten, but I'm looking forward to it.
	__________________ . How can you expect to be rescued if you don’t put first things first and act proper? Last edited by Piggy; 24th February 2008 at 06:26 AM.

24th February 2008, 05:52 PM	#9
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	You are welcome. I actually appreciated your original post on Koko as I had not realized how poor that research was until then. The research you want to look at is Keeli an Ivy and their clan. Those were primates taught language since birth. That made a significant difference.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

25th February 2008, 09:58 AM	#10
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,907	Now skeptigirl, please explain the term "wielder's helmut" in human language.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,907

25th February 2008, 07:27 PM	#11
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Did I post a faux pas? Ooops, welder's helmet. Wonder why spell check missed it? Wielder - usually if you put an apostrophe in a word like that spell check doesn't like it.
	__________________ (Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.) Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 25th February 2008 at 07:30 PM.*

29th February 2008, 08:59 AM	#12
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,715	New stuff on chimps, language, and primate communication: Chimps May Have A 'Language-ready' Brain
	__________________ . How can you expect to be rescued if you don’t put first things first and act proper?