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FireGarden · 29th February 2008, 10:19 AM

The defense minister merely meant 'disaster', according to Melanie Philips:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melanieph...slations.thtml

Quote:

This reported remark by deputy defence minister Matan Vilnai caused widespread shock and absolute horror. For an Israeli minister to use the word ‘holocaust’ to describe a limited war of Israeli self-defence, when for Jews of all people the ‘Holocaust’ means one thing: genocide — and this at a time when the calumny of the ‘Jews as Nazis’ is rampant around the world, putting Israel and the Jewish people at risk — was simply beyond belief.

It was indeed without any credibility — because Vilnai never said it. It was an appalling mistranslation by Reuters

[...] Reuters translated the Hebrew word ‘shoah’ as ‘holocaust’. But ‘shoah’ merely means disaster. In Hebrew, the word ‘shoah’ is never used to mean ‘holocaust’ or ‘genocide’ because of the acute historical resonance. The word ‘Hashoah’ alone means ‘the Holocaust’ and ‘retzach am’ means ‘genocide’. The well-known Hebrew construction used by Vilnai used merely means ‘bringing disaster on themselves’.

Here's the BBC story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7270650.stm

It may have been modified since the first article:

Quote:

Matan Vilnai said Palestinians risked a "shoah", the Hebrew word for a big disaster - and for the Nazi Holocaust.

[...] The BBC's Katya Adler in Jerusalem says many of Mr Vilnai's colleagues have quickly distanced themselves from his comments and also tried to downplay, them saying he did not mean genocide.

"We're getting close to using our full strength. Until now, we've used a small percentage of the army's power because of the nature of the territory," he added.

The DM made the comments after Hamas rockets hit Ashkelon.

Pardalis · 29th February 2008, 10:26 AM

According to this wiki link, "Shoah" is the standard Hebrew term for the Holocaust.

FireGarden · 29th February 2008, 11:08 AM

According to this wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah
the term is Ha-Shoah

But then "Ha-" might be "the"
http://www.theology.edu/hebrew/hb03.htm

I could disagree with the quoted claim: "In Hebrew, the word ‘shoah’ is never used to mean ‘holocaust’ or ‘genocide’ because of the acute historical resonance." So I'm not claiming Reuters were on acid or somesuch when they did the translation. Perhaps they were too hasty. But, then again, the DM's colleagues have distanced themselves from the comments so (assuming they heard them in the original Hebrew) they must have an impact in Hebrew too.

FireGarden · 29th February 2008, 11:27 AM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959532.html

Haaretz disagrees with Melanie Philips, and says that "Shoah" is generally used to refer to the Holocaust. So I would say an honest mistake on the part of Reuters.

Quote:

Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai went as far as threatening a "shoah,"
the Hebrew word for holocaust or disaster. The word is generally used to refer to the Nazi Holocaust, but a spokesman for Vilnai said the deputy defense minister used the word in the sense of "disaster," saying "he did not mean to make any allusion to the genocide."

"The more Qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, [the Palestinians] will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Vilnai told Army Radio on Friday.

Thunder · 29th February 2008, 02:31 PM

shoah has been the standard hebrew and jewish word for holocaust for 40 years. no honest person can claim that 13 million jews know it to mean one thing, but he meant something else.

big oops...mr. deputy defense minister. huge ooops.

webfusion · 29th February 2008, 06:49 PM

"Ason" is the Hebrew word for "disaster" ---

I believe that you are correct in your post parky76, that Vilnai overstepped the bounds of propriety.

And beyond the quibble about the word usage ----- the very idea that IDF forces will manage to perform a massive mission against gaza terrorists without substantial loss of additional civilian palestinian lives, is preposterous. (see: Summer Rain 2006)

The only way they can actually move the rockets back beyond the 12-km firing zone is to create a scorched-earth DMZ where no human beings are allowed in. While the IDF could indeed perform that task, the question remains, what then?

WildCat · 29th February 2008, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

The only way they can actually move the rockets back beyond the 12-km firing zone is to create a scorched-earth DMZ where no human beings are allowed in. While the IDF could indeed perform that task, the question remains, what then?

What then? Build settlements in the 12km zone of course!

gtc · 29th February 2008, 09:42 PM

He was certainly stupid to use a word that is so ambiguous.

Sunni Man · 29th February 2008, 09:46 PM

The real meaning of Shoah should be changed to Fraud

gtc · 29th February 2008, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Sunni Man

The real meaning of Shoah should be changed to Fraud

There are numerous threads in the History section about the Holocaust. There is a poster by the name of Nick Terry that you might like to discuss this opinion with.

Sunni Man · 29th February 2008, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by gtc

There are numerous threads in the History section about the Holocaust. There is a poster by the name of Nick Terry that you might like to discuss this opinion with.

Thanks for the info gtc

Travis · 29th February 2008, 10:08 PM

How is it that Holocaust deniers keep crawling out of the woodwork? They're like cockroaches only I like cockroaches more.

webfusion · 1st March 2008, 07:38 PM

While the use by Deputy Defense Minister Vilnai of the term "shoah" (major inferno) was indelicate, to say the least, it has now been seized upon by the most vile of terrorist organizations in their descriptions of what is currently happening in Gaza.

A statement issued by Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Mahdi Akef condemned the Israeli military actions. "I will quote the Israeli defense minister as describing it as a Holocaust," it said.

and

The Lebanese Hezbollah guerrilla group also described the attacks as a
Holocaust which it said was taking place with "blatant Arab complacency and Western weapons and financing and comprehensive American protection of the Israeli butcher."

Without any question, the battle that's happening in Gaza is NOT comparable to the Holocaust. It's a localized incursion, designed and focused to target specific palestinian individuals and infrastructure they are using to launch terroristic rocket attacks against the State of Israel:
Warehouses, transport vehicles (a truck was targeted earlier today, carrying 140 rockets), Hamas-occupied compounds, and the launch-sites themselves.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959654.html

While civilans are indeed being caught in the crossfire, the aim of the IDF is not civilians. The IDF is using ground forces (at great risk to the soldiers) because we prefer to avoid massive civilian casualties among the people of gaza.
Israel's Army is carrying out these limited actions to defend its citizens. We do not have a policy of causing a "major inferno" (shoah) in Gaza.

yairhol · 1st March 2008, 09:22 PM

Technically, according to the Sapir Hebrew-Hebrew dictionary the meaning of the word 'shoah' is 'a major disaster'. That's how it has been used first in the bible. But ever since the holocaust, the word 'shoah' has been associated with it and that word has not been in use for anything other than the holocaust.
If Vilnai used that word, then it was a poor misuse of it.
Now Abbas is using that word also to describe what's happening in Gaza:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080302/...l_palestinians
"The response to these rockets can't be that harsh and heinous," said Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. "It is nowadays described as a holocaust."

Cincinnatus · 2nd March 2008, 01:06 AM

"The word Nakba - which denotes "catastrophe" in Arabic - is the term used by Palestinians to describe the outcome of the 1948 War. The word Shoah also means "catastrophe" and denotes the murder of European Jewry during WWII."

"first recorded 1957, earlier known in Heb. as Shoah "catastrophe"."

It would seem he meant "Shoah" as in "catastrophe".

That is the etymology of the word Shoah. Shoah is a very disambiguous word.

can't post links yet.

The Fool · 2nd March 2008, 01:43 AM

In the real worls, which I hope we are all in.....Shoah does not mean Holocaust in the same way that Gay does not mean homosexual..

This politician is an Idiot for using the term...

mrbaracuda · 2nd March 2008, 02:03 AM

Oh gawd. And haha, look who got drawn out of his hole: The Sunni Man! And here I thought we lost him to the vast space of the internet, where he can roam freely and foster his evil MO elsewhere.

geni · 2nd March 2008, 02:13 AM

An impressive case of PR fail but I feel little more. Even if the individual in question was planning genocide I really really can't see them getting enough support to carry out that kind of objective.

gtc · 2nd March 2008, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

This politician is an Idiot for using the term...

It would be funny how breathtakingly stupid he was, except that this can't help but hurt the peace process.

The Fool · 2nd March 2008, 04:02 AM

dup

The Fool · 2nd March 2008, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by gtc

It would be funny how breathtakingly stupid he was, except that this can't help but hurt the peace process.

yep, when Chest thumping Idiots from Hamas talk of eradicating Israel I tend to think they are just chest thumping Idiots ranting for the consumption of extremists. Can't see this as much different. Is this guy trying to build support in the far right wing?

Extremist statements which are then "qualified" is a well known tactic to plant "this guy means business....and I like it" in the minds of hawkish radicals. The qualification tends to be shrugged off by the target audience along the lines of "well, he had to say that to stop the wimps moaning...but we know what he (wink wink)really means"

a_unique_person · 2nd March 2008, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by gtc

It would be funny how breathtakingly stupid he was, except that this can't help but hurt the peace process.

It only takes a few on both sides to ruin it for everyone.

webfusion · 2nd March 2008, 04:30 AM

question:

Quote:

Is this guy (Maj.Gen.Vilnai) trying to build support in the far right wing?

More probably, he was not making the threat idly and he was directing it to the palestinians (chest-thumping, if you will) because he is privy to the plans of the Israeli military for going into gaza and understands the tremendous damage and destruction that will befall the gazans overall. Unfortunately, HAMAS is hoping for exactly that response, and is doing everything it can to embroil Israel in a full-scale war, which they hope will drag in the Hezbollah again (as it did in 2006). This is all being orchestrated from Iran, and I would not put it past the Iranians to even join in themselves, with a barrage of Shihab-3 & 4 ballistic missiles, just for sport. Then, the Syrians could start their participation in the rocket action, as well, and Israel would be fighting the next Arab-Israeli war, making a valiant attempt to avoid eradication.

Improbable scenario, you say?

Not at all. Not at all.

webfusion · 2nd March 2008, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by gtc

It would be funny how breathtakingly stupid he was, except that this can't help but hurt the peace process.

There is no peace process. There is a war process. And Israel is going to win. And the palestinians are going to lose, yet again.

By the way, those erstwhile Saudis are now comparing these localized IDF raids and skirmishes in gaza to the events of World War 2:
"Saudi Arabia, which condemns the Israeli war crimes against the Palestinian people and the threats of Israeli officials to transform Gaza into an inferno, sees that Israel is simulating through these actions the Nazi war crimes," the Saudi official news agency SPA reported
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959882.html
Saudi Arabia is comparing the Israel Defense Forces' operation against Gaza rocket squads to Nazi war crimes, and calling on the international community to stop what it called the "mass killings" of Palestinians.
--- it won't be long before the term genocide is tossed around to describe the IDF targeted raids.

yairhol · 2nd March 2008, 05:18 AM

from the article above not one word against rocket attacks on Israel eh?
Well that makes what they're saying not even worth sh*t.

webfusion · 2nd March 2008, 05:34 AM

Rocket attacks? What rocket attacks?

http://www.naturesongs.com/cricket1.wav

Sunni Man · 2nd March 2008, 05:46 AM

The zionist jews of Israel have taken on all of the behaviours of their former masters the nazis.

It's called the Stockholm Syndrome. Where a former prisoner take on all of the brutal characteristics of their guards.

This is what has happened to Israel on a national level.

Now the zionist jews of Israel have became the modern day Nazis.

And have actually become worse in the sick art of brutality and torture than the nazis ever were.

WildCat · 2nd March 2008, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by Sunni Man

The zionist jews of Israel have taken on all of the behaviours of their former masters the nazis.

It's called the Stockholm Syndrome. Where a former prisoner take on all of the brutal characteristics of their guards.

This is what has happened to Israel on a national level.

Now the zionist jews of Israel have became the modern day Nazis.

And have actually become worse in the sick art of brutality and torture than the nazis ever were.

Wait, I thought the holocaust was a "fairy tale"?

Originally Posted by Sunni Man

the holocaust fairy tale.

Sunni Man · 2nd March 2008, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Wait, I thought the holocaust was a "fairy tale"?

Did I use the word holocaust in my post?

No!

Where there Jews in prison camps as slave labor?

Yes.

WildCat · 2nd March 2008, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Sunni Man

Did I use the word holocaust in my post?

No!

Where there Jews in prison camps as slave labor?

Yes.

And what labors are the Palestinians providing for the Israelis without compensation? And how are they imprisoned?

geni · 2nd March 2008, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

There is no peace process. There is a war process. And Israel is going to win. And the palestinians are going to lose, yet again.

No for the palestinians defeate= genocide. Anything less than that is mearly an inconvience.

Quote:

--- it won't be long before the term genocide is tossed around to describe the IDF targeted raids.

Oradour-sur-Glane was targeted. Sure it was the wrong target but everyone makes mistakes.

Sunni Man · 2nd March 2008, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

And what labors are the Palestinians providing for the Israelis without compensation? And how are they imprisoned?

As you well know, Gaza is the worlds largest open air prison camp.

Totally surrounded by the brutal IDF prison guards.

yairhol · 2nd March 2008, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Sunni Man

As you well know, Gaza is the worlds largest open air prison camp.

Totally surrounded by the brutal IDF prison guards.

Quote:

The zionist jews of Israel have taken on all of the behaviours of their former masters the nazis.

It's called the Stockholm Syndrome. Where a former prisoner take on all of the brutal characteristics of their guards.

This is what has happened to Israel on a national level.

Now the zionist jews of Israel have became the modern day Nazis.

And have actually become worse in the sick art of brutality and torture than the nazis ever were.

what a sorry little man.
Have you checked the conspiracy forum lately? You'll be king there...but only there. Here you're a cockroach.

Thunder · 2nd March 2008, 07:54 AM

the jews are acting like nazis? the palestinians are being put in gas chambers?

oh, i forgot, the gas chambers didnt exist.

Sunni Man · 2nd March 2008, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by yairhol

what a sorry little man.
Have you checked the conspiracy forum lately? You'll be king there...but only there. Here you're a cockroach.

I am puzzled?

How can the reality of the Israel / Palestinian conflict be labled a conspiracy?

Sunni Man · 2nd March 2008, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

the jews are acting like nazis? the palestinians are being put in gas chambers?

oh, i forgot, the gas chambers didnt exist.

Finally, you are catching on!!

WildCat · 2nd March 2008, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Sunni Man

Finally, you are catching on!!

You know, I was called racist in here by some for attributing views such as yours to Muslims in general. Then along you come and prove the stereotype, thanks for the vindication Sunni Man!

And Sunni Man, for those of you unfamiliar with him, is an American who converted 7 years ago. Didn't take him long to revert to form, did it?

People who "think" like him are what Israel is expected to negotiate with. Doesn't leave much hope for peace when you have to account for such a medievel way of thinking such as he exhibits, does it?

yairhol · 2nd March 2008, 08:19 AM

What a fanatic. How do people reach such radical opinions unless all they're after is violence and war.

Sunni Man · 2nd March 2008, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by yairhol

What a fanatic. How do people reach such radical opinions unless all they're after is violence and war.

I agree!

Wildcat has no respect for human dignity and the rights of people to live in peace and not be brutalized.

WildCat · 2nd March 2008, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Sunni Man

I agree!

Wildcat has no respect for human dignity and the rights of people to live in peace and not be brutalized.

Not true. Unfortunately, the Palestinians have elected leaders who have decided to wage a war they cannot win.

If they wanted peace and dignity they'd have rejected Hamas and elected a party that wants to live in peace.

I'm not aware of any such party at the moment unfortunately, because the Palestinians have decided an endless war they cannot win is preferable to peace and prosperity. They are egged on in this by Iran and Syria and other states who want the Palestinians to be in the state they're in for their own political reasons.

And right now, after having picked this fight they cannot win, Hamas bravely uses women and children as shields so their cowardly fighters can use their dead and maimed bodies as propaganda. Classy!

29th February 2008, 10:19 AM	#1
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	'Shoah' mistranslated as 'Holocaust' The defense minister merely meant 'disaster', according to Melanie Philips: http://www.spectator.co.uk/melanieph...slations.thtml Quote: This reported remark by deputy defence minister Matan Vilnai caused widespread shock and absolute horror. For an Israeli minister to use the word ‘holocaust’ to describe a limited war of Israeli self-defence, when for Jews of all people the ‘Holocaust’ means one thing: genocide — and this at a time when the calumny of the ‘Jews as Nazis’ is rampant around the world, putting Israel and the Jewish people at risk — was simply beyond belief. It was indeed without any credibility — because Vilnai never said it. It was an appalling mistranslation by Reuters [...] Reuters translated the Hebrew word ‘shoah’ as ‘holocaust’. But ‘shoah’ merely means disaster. In Hebrew, the word ‘shoah’ is never used to mean ‘holocaust’ or ‘genocide’ because of the acute historical resonance. The word ‘Hashoah’ alone means ‘the Holocaust’ and ‘retzach am’ means ‘genocide’. The well-known Hebrew construction used by Vilnai used merely means ‘bringing disaster on themselves’. Here's the BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7270650.stm It may have been modified since the first article: Quote: Matan Vilnai said Palestinians risked a "shoah", the Hebrew word for a big disaster - and for the Nazi Holocaust. [...] The BBC's Katya Adler in Jerusalem says many of Mr Vilnai's colleagues have quickly distanced themselves from his comments and also tried to downplay, them saying he did not mean genocide. "We're getting close to using our full strength. Until now, we've used a small percentage of the army's power because of the nature of the territory," he added. The DM made the comments after Hamas rockets hit Ashkelon.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

29th February 2008, 11:08 AM	#3
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	According to this wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah the term is Ha-Shoah But then "Ha-" might be "the" http://www.theology.edu/hebrew/hb03.htm I could disagree with the quoted claim: "In Hebrew, the word ‘shoah’ is never used to mean ‘holocaust’ or ‘genocide’ because of the acute historical resonance." So I'm not claiming Reuters were on acid or somesuch when they did the translation. Perhaps they were too hasty. But, then again, the DM's colleagues have distanced themselves from the comments so (assuming they heard them in the original Hebrew) they must have an impact in Hebrew too.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

29th February 2008, 11:27 AM	#4
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959532.html Haaretz disagrees with Melanie Philips, and says that "Shoah" is generally used to refer to the Holocaust. So I would say an honest mistake on the part of Reuters. Quote: Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai went as far as threatening a "shoah," the Hebrew word for holocaust or disaster. The word is generally used to refer to the Nazi Holocaust, but a spokesman for Vilnai said the deputy defense minister used the word in the sense of "disaster," saying "he did not mean to make any allusion to the genocide." "The more Qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, [the Palestinians] will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Vilnai told Army Radio on Friday.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

29th February 2008, 07:47 PM	#7
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,471	Originally Posted by webfusion The only way they can actually move the rockets back beyond the 12-km firing zone is to create a scorched-earth DMZ where no human beings are allowed in. While the IDF could indeed perform that task, the question remains, what then? What then? Build settlements in the 12km zone of course!
	Last edited by WildCat; 29th February 2008 at 07:47 PM.

29th February 2008, 09:46 PM	#9
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863	The real meaning of Shoah should be changed to Fraud
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863

29th February 2008, 10:26 AM	#2
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	According to this wiki link, "Shoah" is the standard Hebrew term for the Holocaust.

29th February 2008, 02:31 PM	#5
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	shoah has been the standard hebrew and jewish word for holocaust for 40 years. no honest person can claim that 13 million jews know it to mean one thing, but he meant something else. big oops...mr. deputy defense minister. huge ooops.

29th February 2008, 06:49 PM	#6
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	"Ason" is the Hebrew word for "disaster" --- I believe that you are correct in your post parky76, that Vilnai overstepped the bounds of propriety. And beyond the quibble about the word usage ----- the very idea that IDF forces will manage to perform a massive mission against gaza terrorists without substantial loss of additional civilian palestinian lives, is preposterous. (see: Summer Rain 2006) The only way they can actually move the rockets back beyond the 12-km firing zone is to create a scorched-earth DMZ where no human beings are allowed in. While the IDF could indeed perform that task, the question remains, what then?

29th February 2008, 09:42 PM	#8
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,114	He was certainly stupid to use a word that is so ambiguous.

29th February 2008, 09:48 PM	#10
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,114	Originally Posted by Sunni Man The real meaning of Shoah should be changed to Fraud There are numerous threads in the History section about the Holocaust. There is a poster by the name of Nick Terry that you might like to discuss this opinion with.

29th February 2008, 09:56 PM	#11
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863	Originally Posted by gtc There are numerous threads in the History section about the Holocaust. There is a poster by the name of Nick Terry that you might like to discuss this opinion with. Thanks for the info gtc
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863

29th February 2008, 10:08 PM	#12
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 18,105	How is it that Holocaust deniers keep crawling out of the woodwork? They're like cockroaches only I like cockroaches more.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

1st March 2008, 07:38 PM	#13
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	While the use by Deputy Defense Minister Vilnai of the term "shoah" (major inferno) was indelicate, to say the least, it has now been seized upon by the most vile of terrorist organizations in their descriptions of what is currently happening in Gaza. A statement issued by Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohammed Mahdi Akef condemned the Israeli military actions. "I will quote the Israeli defense minister as describing it as a Holocaust," it said. and The Lebanese Hezbollah guerrilla group also described the attacks as a Holocaust which it said was taking place with "blatant Arab complacency and Western weapons and financing and comprehensive American protection of the Israeli butcher." Without any question, the battle that's happening in Gaza is NOT comparable to the Holocaust. It's a localized incursion, designed and focused to target specific palestinian individuals and infrastructure they are using to launch terroristic rocket attacks against the State of Israel: Warehouses, transport vehicles (a truck was targeted earlier today, carrying 140 rockets), Hamas-occupied compounds, and the launch-sites themselves. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959654.html While civilans are indeed being caught in the crossfire, the aim of the IDF is not civilians. The IDF is using ground forces (at great risk to the soldiers) because we prefer to avoid massive civilian casualties among the people of gaza. Israel's Army is carrying out these limited actions to defend its citizens. We do not have a policy of causing a "major inferno" (shoah) in Gaza.

1st March 2008, 09:22 PM	#14
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Technically, according to the Sapir Hebrew-Hebrew dictionary the meaning of the word 'shoah' is 'a major disaster'. That's how it has been used first in the bible. But ever since the holocaust, the word 'shoah' has been associated with it and that word has not been in use for anything other than the holocaust. If Vilnai used that word, then it was a poor misuse of it. Now Abbas is using that word also to describe what's happening in Gaza: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080302/...l_palestinians "The response to these rockets can't be that harsh and heinous," said Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. "It is nowadays described as a holocaust."
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

2nd March 2008, 01:06 AM	#15
Cincinnatus Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New York Posts: 90	"The word Nakba - which denotes "catastrophe" in Arabic - is the term used by Palestinians to describe the outcome of the 1948 War. The word Shoah also means "catastrophe" and denotes the murder of European Jewry during WWII." "first recorded 1957, earlier known in Heb. as Shoah "catastrophe"." It would seem he meant "Shoah" as in "catastrophe". That is the etymology of the word Shoah. Shoah is a very disambiguous word. can't post links yet.

2nd March 2008, 01:43 AM	#16
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	In the real worls, which I hope we are all in.....Shoah does not mean Holocaust in the same way that Gay does not mean homosexual.. This politician is an Idiot for using the term...
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

2nd March 2008, 02:03 AM	#17
mrbaracuda Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 3,799	Oh gawd. And haha, look who got drawn out of his hole: The Sunni Man! And here I thought we lost him to the vast space of the internet, where he can roam freely and foster his evil MO elsewhere.

2nd March 2008, 02:13 AM	#18
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,642	An impressive case of PR fail but I feel little more. Even if the individual in question was planning genocide I really really can't see them getting enough support to carry out that kind of objective.

2nd March 2008, 02:45 AM	#19
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,114	Originally Posted by The Fool This politician is an Idiot for using the term... It would be funny how breathtakingly stupid he was, except that this can't help but hurt the peace process.

2nd March 2008, 04:02 AM	#20
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	dup
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how. Last edited by The Fool; 2nd March 2008 at 04:21 AM.

2nd March 2008, 04:21 AM	#21
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by gtc It would be funny how breathtakingly stupid he was, except that this can't help but hurt the peace process. yep, when Chest thumping Idiots from Hamas talk of eradicating Israel I tend to think they are just chest thumping Idiots ranting for the consumption of extremists. Can't see this as much different. Is this guy trying to build support in the far right wing? Extremist statements which are then "qualified" is a well known tactic to plant "this guy means business....and I like it" in the minds of hawkish radicals. The qualification tends to be shrugged off by the target audience along the lines of "well, he had to say that to stop the wimps moaning...but we know what he (wink wink)really means"
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how. Last edited by The Fool; 2nd March 2008 at 04:22 AM.

2nd March 2008, 04:29 AM	#22
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,466	Originally Posted by gtc It would be funny how breathtakingly stupid he was, except that this can't help but hurt the peace process. It only takes a few on both sides to ruin it for everyone.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

2nd March 2008, 04:30 AM	#23
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	question: Quote: Is this guy (Maj.Gen.Vilnai) trying to build support in the far right wing? More probably, he was not making the threat idly and he was directing it to the palestinians (chest-thumping, if you will) because he is privy to the plans of the Israeli military for going into gaza and understands the tremendous damage and destruction that will befall the gazans overall. Unfortunately, HAMAS is hoping for exactly that response, and is doing everything it can to embroil Israel in a full-scale war, which they hope will drag in the Hezbollah again (as it did in 2006). This is all being orchestrated from Iran, and I would not put it past the Iranians to even join in themselves, with a barrage of Shihab-3 & 4 ballistic missiles, just for sport. Then, the Syrians could start their participation in the rocket action, as well, and Israel would be fighting the next Arab-Israeli war, making a valiant attempt to avoid eradication. Improbable scenario, you say? Not at all. Not at all.

2nd March 2008, 04:37 AM	#24
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Originally Posted by gtc It would be funny how breathtakingly stupid he was, except that this can't help but hurt the peace process. There is no peace process. There is a war process. And Israel is going to win. And the palestinians are going to lose, yet again. By the way, those erstwhile Saudis are now comparing these localized IDF raids and skirmishes in gaza to the events of World War 2: "Saudi Arabia, which condemns the Israeli war crimes against the Palestinian people and the threats of Israeli officials to transform Gaza into an inferno, sees that Israel is simulating through these actions the Nazi war crimes," the Saudi official news agency SPA reported http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959882.html Saudi Arabia is comparing the Israel Defense Forces' operation against Gaza rocket squads to Nazi war crimes, and calling on the international community to stop what it called the "mass killings" of Palestinians. --- it won't be long before the term genocide is tossed around to describe the IDF targeted raids.
	Last edited by webfusion; 2nd March 2008 at 04:38 AM.

2nd March 2008, 05:18 AM	#25
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	from the article above not one word against rocket attacks on Israel eh? Well that makes what they're saying not even worth sh*t.
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403

2nd March 2008, 05:34 AM	#26
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Rocket attacks? What rocket attacks? http://www.naturesongs.com/cricket1.wav

2nd March 2008, 05:46 AM	#27
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863	The zionist jews of Israel have taken on all of the behaviours of their former masters the nazis. It's called the Stockholm Syndrome. Where a former prisoner take on all of the brutal characteristics of their guards. This is what has happened to Israel on a national level. Now the zionist jews of Israel have became the modern day Nazis. And have actually become worse in the sick art of brutality and torture than the nazis ever were.
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863	Last edited by Sunni Man; 2nd March 2008 at 05:47 AM.

2nd March 2008, 06:44 AM	#28
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,471	Originally Posted by Sunni Man The zionist jews of Israel have taken on all of the behaviours of their former masters the nazis. It's called the Stockholm Syndrome. Where a former prisoner take on all of the brutal characteristics of their guards. This is what has happened to Israel on a national level. Now the zionist jews of Israel have became the modern day Nazis. And have actually become worse in the sick art of brutality and torture than the nazis ever were. Wait, I thought the holocaust was a "fairy tale"? Originally Posted by Sunni Man the holocaust fairy tale.

2nd March 2008, 06:50 AM	#29
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863	Originally Posted by WildCat Wait, I thought the holocaust was a "fairy tale"? Did I use the word holocaust in my post? No! Where there Jews in prison camps as slave labor? Yes.
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863

2nd March 2008, 06:55 AM	#30
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,471	Originally Posted by Sunni Man Did I use the word holocaust in my post? No! Where there Jews in prison camps as slave labor? Yes. And what labors are the Palestinians providing for the Israelis without compensation? And how are they imprisoned?

2nd March 2008, 07:00 AM	#31
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,642	Originally Posted by webfusion There is no peace process. There is a war process. And Israel is going to win. And the palestinians are going to lose, yet again. No for the palestinians defeate= genocide. Anything less than that is mearly an inconvience. Quote: --- it won't be long before the term genocide is tossed around to describe the IDF targeted raids. Oradour-sur-Glane was targeted. Sure it was the wrong target but everyone makes mistakes.

2nd March 2008, 07:02 AM	#32
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863	Originally Posted by WildCat And what labors are the Palestinians providing for the Israelis without compensation? And how are they imprisoned? As you well know, Gaza is the worlds largest open air prison camp. Totally surrounded by the brutal IDF prison guards.
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863

2nd March 2008, 07:51 AM	#33
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Originally Posted by Sunni Man As you well know, Gaza is the worlds largest open air prison camp. Totally surrounded by the brutal IDF prison guards. Quote: The zionist jews of Israel have taken on all of the behaviours of their former masters the nazis. It's called the Stockholm Syndrome. Where a former prisoner take on all of the brutal characteristics of their guards. This is what has happened to Israel on a national level. Now the zionist jews of Israel have became the modern day Nazis. And have actually become worse in the sick art of brutality and torture than the nazis ever were. what a sorry little man. Have you checked the conspiracy forum lately? You'll be king there...but only there. Here you're a cockroach.
yairhol Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,403	Last edited by yairhol; 2nd March 2008 at 07:55 AM.

2nd March 2008, 07:54 AM	#34
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	the jews are acting like nazis? the palestinians are being put in gas chambers? oh, i forgot, the gas chambers didnt exist.

2nd March 2008, 07:58 AM	#35
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863	Originally Posted by yairhol what a sorry little man. Have you checked the conspiracy forum lately? You'll be king there...but only there. Here you're a cockroach. I am puzzled? How can the reality of the Israel / Palestinian conflict be labled a conspiracy?
Sunni Man Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 863