Dolphin Saves Whales

[Overman]

Awesome Link

WOW!

What a story!

Now, do you think that dolphins and whales have some inherit way to communicate, or is this like a dog saving people in a fire...?

Are Mammels naturally altruistic?

[Jimbo07]

Originally Posted by Overman

Awesome Link

WOW!

What a story!

Now, do you think that dolphins and whales have some inherit way to communicate, or is this like a dog saving people in a fire...?

Are Mammels naturally altruistic?

There are so many anecdotes of dolphins seeming not only intelligent, but compassionate as well. I am not a marine biologist, so would someone more knowledgeable be willing to share some information regarding what we actually know about dolphins? Philosophers could also weigh in. I'm interested in knowing if there are some people who will define intelligence and compassion to automatically exclude animals, regardless of what the behavioral data may suggest.

(For those smart-alecks who will say, "do your homework," some of us are here for fun and enjoy the E aspect of JREF -- thanks )

[quarky]

Altruism is a slippery slope.

One mammal that demonstrates altruistic behavior is the vampire bat.
When a group of them flies off at night, for a meal, they have been observed to share their score with others that were less lucky. Such behavior is advantageous to the group of bats, though not (necessarily) to the individual.

Bottlenose dolphins are quite playfull. This particular action (the o.p.) could be seen as a form of play. It must have been fun.

[Jimbo07]

Originally Posted by quarky

Altruism is a slippery slope.

One mammal that demonstrates altruistic behavior is the vampire bat.
When a group of them flies off at night, for a meal, they have been observed to share their score with others that were less lucky. Such behavior is advantageous to the group of bats, though not (necessarily) to the individual.

Bottlenose dolphins are quite playfull. This particular action (the o.p.) could be seen as a form of play. It must have been fun.

Yes... assuming the story is entirely valid in the first place. That's why I was asking what we know...

[ImaginalDisc]

Marine biologists have witnessed plenty of acts of altruism by dolphins. This case, if it's true, wouldn't be terribly unusual. However, that doesn't make dolphins cuddly and sweet. Marine biologists have also witnessed dolphins murder one another, including helpless juveniles, and rape.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Marine biologists have witnessed plenty of acts of altruism by dolphins. This case, if it's true, wouldn't be terribly unusual. However, that doesn't make dolphins cuddly and sweet. Marine biologists have also witnessed dolphins murder one another, including helpless juveniles, and rape.

So they are somewhat like humans? But, presumably, without religion.

[ImaginalDisc]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

So they are somewhat like humans? But, presumably, without religion.

Who knows. Maybe their rapid fire chittering is concerned solely with Jesus.

What makes them more like humans is that they have culture, for a certain loose definition of culture. Their social structures and habits vary tremendously in different regions. Chimpanzees do too, but they also vary in technologies and habits. Some chimpanzee troops have learned how to fish for termites, hunt colobus monkeys, or crack open nuts, and others have no idea that there are chimps in the world who do that.

/Tangent

[thesyntaxera]

That is a pretty fantastic story.

This months National Geographic is focused on animal intelligence. What the research in the article describes is quite interesting. Dolphins are among a small group of mammals that are actually self aware, and able to communicate with humans. The others are several species of apes, and elephants. The article also points out other rare animal behaviors such as a crow that can make tools, and a parrot that will not only mimic words, but will also speak to it's handlers in a crude form of english in order to communicate it's needs.

I think that might be the full article:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...ia-morell-text

I think altruism might be a learned behavior, and not necessarily a bad one. Perhaps it demonstrates their capacity for emotional response?

[ImaginalDisc]

Originally Posted by thesyntaxera

That is a pretty fantastic story.

This months National Geographic is focused on animal intelligence. What the research in the article describes is quite interesting. Dolphins are among a small group of mammals that are actually self aware, and able to communicate with humans. The others are several species of apes, and elephants. The article also points out other rare animal behaviors such as a crow that can make tools, and a parrot that will not only mimic words, but will also speak to it's handlers in a crude form of english in order to communicate it's needs.

I think that might be the full article:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...ia-morell-text

I think altruism might be a learned behavior, and not necessarily a bad one. Perhaps it demonstrates their capacity for emotional response?

It's certainly possible for some animals to learn some sorts of altruism, but biologically speaking, altruism's pretty widespread and often hardwired. The social structure of ants and bees are classic examples of biological altruism. Social animals often seem to have a strong impulse towards altruism, even if it "misfires" and causes humans to sincirely care for adopted babies to whom they have no relation, or causes dolphins to help save whales who might be competiors for food.

Measuring emotion is so difficult, though. I really hope that one day soon we can easily examine the active brain of an animal and say "Unequivicably, the 'awww' center has fired."

[kerikiwi]

I note that, like UFO stories, this one includes the comments of an expert.
I smell a hint of confirmation bias. People have sentimental views of whales and dolphins and anything that might confirm that is grabbed and interpreted accordingly.
I don't believe the story.

[quarky]

I've spent some time with dolphins. It is almost woo to be around them, especially tursiops.

Dolphins are intensely social. If they have a 'culture', it is one they generate with some sophisticated phonation equipment. They create an enviornment of sound, as well as living in one. If one likes to anthropomorphise about them, it is handy to do so regarding the potential of an oral history they may (or may not) share.

I have known a few scientists that quit working with dolphins because they couldn't remain objective. Tursiops has a nice brain, larger than ours. They have physical fitness and basic vitality that can be staggering to a human in their medium.

In the 60's, when I was looking for a guru, of sorts, I stumbled upon these aliens instead.
To fathom the life of a wild pod of dolphins is to confront the alien intelligence we supposedly would like to meet.
That they are willing to jump through hoops for us is just the icing on our nasty cake.

That they are somewhat unpredictable is the cherry.

What we don't get is this:

A lone dolphin is in deep trouble. It will seek new bonds, sort of like a wolf.

I witnessed tamed dolphins that were allowed to return to the wild, after the mandatory hoop-jumping that we intelligent ones must impose on them.

They didn't want to leave, anymore than a tame wolf that had bonded with you would want to go out into the wild.

The few lone dolphins that we hear about; the ones that play with humans on certain beaches, are not normal. In captivity, dolphins become very depressed and even insane.
Part of this is due, imho, to the nature of the containment, and the way it bounces sound, which is the media thru which dolphins perceive the world. (for the most part)

A bottle nose dolphin has 10 fold the hearing apparatus as we fools. Its difficult to imagine, but my hunch is that they live in a holographic sensory world, mostly co-generated. They do have stereo phonation devices, and can generate sound in different ways.

Truly a marvelous beast. Very prone to woo-like sentiment from humans. Indeed the alien intelligence we should meet. Few can stand to ponder the sheer alieness of this other intelligent life form on earth, but I wish we could, before we kill them all.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

So they are somewhat like humans? But, presumably, without religion.

No, they actually believe in a Greater Porpoise.

(Recycled from the other thread on this news article.)

[Jimbo07]

Originally Posted by quarky

Few can stand to ponder the sheer alieness of this other intelligent life form on earth, but I wish we could, before we kill them all.

I can imagine that acknowledging this alien intelligence, and contrasting it with our own would help in understanding the nature of intelligence.

I am a meat-eater and dislike PETA's tactics. Even so, I can't help thinking that the more animals we kill, the fewer chances we have to learn about ourselves...

[thesyntaxera]

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

It's certainly possible for some animals to learn some sorts of altruism, but biologically speaking, altruism's pretty widespread and often hardwired. The social structure of ants and bees are classic examples of biological altruism. Social animals often seem to have a strong impulse towards altruism, even if it "misfires" and causes humans to sincirely care for adopted babies to whom they have no relation, or causes dolphins to help save whales who might be competiors for food.

Measuring emotion is so difficult, though. I really hope that one day soon we can easily examine the active brain of an animal and say "Unequivicably, the 'awww' center has fired."

Fascinating...with all this hardwired altruism I am sure Ayn Rand would be spinning in her grave. It's funny you mention ants and bees...it reminds me of that show Meerkat manor. In one episode, one of the males wanted to relocate the nest so he brought out all of the babies and laid them in the sun, much to the distress of the females. They took them back down into the nest several times, and the male kept returning them to the surface so as if to coerce the other females into following him. In the end they nursed them to keep them hydrated until the alpha female meerkat arrived and restored order by banishing the male and leading the group to a different burrow. In all the moving about a single infant meerkat remained behind the others and was lost. It's mother, after securing the safety of the other babies traversed over to square miles of ground searching for it, only to never find it again.

Another story I read(again in NG) was about a lioness that attacked and killed a female baboon. As she went to get her grub on she noticed a baby baboon clutching the dead mother. Instead of eating the mother and baby, the lioness picked up the infant like a cub and carried it up into a tree where it curled up with it to keep it warm until the next day...even moving it further up the tree when another lion came looking for a meal. Sadly however, the baboon died from exposure.

Quote:

I am a meat-eater and dislike PETA's tactics.

Maybe I am not up to speed on the current animal rights activism, but what is it about PETA's tactics that you don't like?

Is it because they make video's like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCx0ORuDZFE

...Or because they manifest themselves as college students who raid science laboratories(like they did here in Iowa) and stand on the street corner shouting their disapproval while euthanizing animals received from shelters.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Overman

Awesome Link

WOW!

What a story!

Now, do you think that dolphins and whales have some inherit way to communicate, or is this like a dog saving people in a fire...?

Are Mammels naturally altruistic?

I doubt there was any whale -> dolphin communication going on. Seems to me the dolphin just figured out what those odd humans were up to and lent a hand. Probably thought it was a game.

(Oh, and you are a day late with the thread. )

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

This case, if it's true, wouldn't be terribly unusual.

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

I don't believe the story.

Quite a large number of witnesses have told the same story, so I have every confidence the story is correct.

[kerikiwi]

I don't doubt the whales were there
I don't doubt the dolphin was there.
What I don't believe is the interpretation, that the dolphin saved the whales.
Someone even spoke of the dolphin taking the whales by the flippers to lead them to safety.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

I don't doubt the whales were there
I don't doubt the dolphin was there.
What I don't believe is the interpretation, that the dolphin saved the whales.
Someone even spoke of the dolphin taking the whales by the flippers to lead them to safety.

I think you're missing an important fact or two before coming to your conclusion.

The whales did move offshore after the dolphin swam out.

Pygmy Sperm whales usually re-strand, and had already done so.

It might well be simple coincidence, and I don't think anyone's suggesting too much more than that just yet. To me, it's probably just a lucky break, but to immediately jump to "it's baloney" is just contrarian.

[EyeOn]

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

I note that, like UFO stories, this one includes the comments of an expert.
I smell a hint of confirmation bias. People have sentimental views of whales and dolphins and anything that might confirm that is grabbed and interpreted accordingly.
I don't believe the story.

If the story is true...it's not that uncommon for an unusual pairing of species to hang out with each other. From the cat that befriends the neighbor's dog to a deer taking a liking to a rabbit. I even had a platy that wooed a pencilfish...LOL...I know...different issue...anyway...each such case shows a form of protective behavior between the individuals and not necessarily between the species.

That's how I look at stories such as this and if anything, it's a happy story.

[quarky]

Human arrogance is a tough nut to crack.

For whatever reasons, most humans don't want to eat dolphins, whales, manatees, chimpanzees. Its part woo; part ethics; part ecology.

Assuming that other species are intelligent, from the on-set, is a handy way to get closer to them. When dolphins get wind of the scientists realizing this, they get very excited.
Its like watching the reverse of human scientists getting all excited when they confirm a great ape's new found abilities. Dolphins will leap out of the water when they know that you have suddenly opened to their native intelligence, as oppossed to trying to fit them into an anthropomorphic bar graft of our choosing.

Isn't it quite shocking, how little we know about a spermwhale? A mammal with a massive brain, quite sophisticated brain, and a male could spend 6 months alone, doing almost nothing; not even eating!

Not only do we have no idea what is going on in that super-sized organ, we don't even want to know!

Technologicly, we have almost no chance of ever studying such a wonderous phenomenae. We don't have the ability to study wild whales!

(yes , we try. but we'd have better luck flying to mars)

[quarky]

Human arrogance is a tough nut to crack.

For whatever reasons, most humans don't want to eat dolphins, whales, manatees, chimpanzees. Its part woo; part ethics; part ecology.

Assuming that other species are intelligent, from the on-set, is a handy way to get closer to them. When dolphins get wind of the scientists realizing this, they get very excited.
Its like watching the reverse of human scientists getting all excited when they confirm a great ape's new found abilities. Dolphins will leap out of the water when they know that you have suddenly opened to their native intelligence, as oppossed to trying to fit them into an anthropomorphic bar graft of our choosing.

Isn't it quite shocking, how little we know about a spermwhale? A mammal with a massive brain, quite sophisticated brain, and a male could spend 6 months alone, doing almost nothing; not even eating!

Not only do we have no idea what is going on in that super-sized organ, we don't even want to know!

Technologicly, we have almost no chance of ever studying such a wonderous phenomenae. We don't have the ability to study wild whales!

(yes , we try. but we'd have better luck flying to mars)

[soylent]

Originally Posted by thesyntaxera

Maybe I am not up to speed on the current animal rights activism, but what is it about PETA's tactics that you don't like?

Pressumably it's the funding and condoning of illegal activities like ELF's Rodney Coronado who burned down the Michigan state research lab, destroying 32 years of research data.(For which he only recieved 57 months in prison instead of a punish more fit to the crime, like a bullet to the head).

He received 70 000$ tax free from PETA around that time and they tried to slither out from having to denounce the bastard as best they could.

[EyeOn]

Originally Posted by soylent

Pressumably it's the funding and condoning of illegal activities like ELF's Rodney Coronado who burned down the Michigan state research lab, destroying 32 years of research data.(For which he only recieved 57 months in prison instead of a punish more fit to the crime, like a bullet to the head).

He received 70 000$ tax free from PETA around that time and they tried to slither out from having to denounce the bastard as best they could.

I'll add to this...

At one point in time PETA use to be a respectable organization and I'm talking a long time ago...like when Betty White use to endorse them. Now? Because of all their illegalities and extremism, they make it hard for anyone else in animal rights to be respected. PETA is now part of the problem. What really disgusted many was when they took a bunch of animals from a pound just to kill them and they threw the bodies into a dumpster. How in the world does that help the cause against animal abuse??? That's sick. They took away whatever chance those animals had in being adopted and disposing them the way they did is a health threat to people and other animals.

I'll go on their website for information and that's it. At least their info. is right on, but their actions are disgraceful.

And the one thing that bothers me the most about PETA...Don't hound me about eating meat. Don't hound me how meat is 'murder'. Don't throw a bunch of sick pictures in my face while I am eating. I've been visited by PETA people while on campus doing just that.

I am an omnivore as any other human. Omnivores need both meat and plant proteins for the best optimal health. It's how the biology works in omnivores. To call meat murder, you might as well call eating anything organic murder considering all those fruits and veggies are alive too before we eat them.

It's one thing to bring attention to farms that abuse food animals. Yes, there is a problem with farms abusing food animals. IMO, a healthy animal will produce healthy food...a sick animal will produce unhealthy food, but is that problem really because I'm eating them??? They should be spending their time targeting the farms themselves rather than innocent people and that's where PETA really screws up.

Just my opinion on PETA.

[jimbob]

Matt Ridley: The origin of virtue.

I'd recommend it.



There are several species that seem to demonstrate altruism towards humans (on occasion). Most of these look cute to us, especially their young, I suspect that we, and our young especially could look cute to them too...

[quarky]

I've heard reports of nurse sharks helping swimmers to shore. No links; this was from researchers at a shark institute in the Florida Keys.