Norway: Comedian Burns US Flag On TV

LucienVanImpe · 14th February 2003, 10:04 AM

Legal precedence suggests that he may land himself a jail term because of this satirical stunt - in case an official complaint is filed with the authorities:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...ticleID=490466

The Land of the Midnight Sun also contributed this anti-American diatribe to the political discourse on Iraq last month:

http://home.online.no/~ivajoha/htmlformat.html

Note the signatories. An ambassador and former leader of the Labor Party, high-ranking trade unionists, several MP's, journalists etc. The launcher of the campaign is a host on national, public television.

Michael Redman · 14th February 2003, 10:49 AM

Jailing him would be more of a protest against what the US stands for than his burning of the flag, in my opinion.

HarryKeogh · 14th February 2003, 10:59 AM

guess he should have burned the flag in the USA. we recognize it as free speech.

LucienVanImpe · 14th February 2003, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Redman
Jailing him would be more of a protest against what the US stands for than his burning of the flag, in my opinion.

Yup, and that's why I believe he can sleep safely. Even though the U.S. Embassy in Norway has criticised the flag burning and characterized it as offensive, I'm quite convinced that they wouldn't like to see him jailed.

aerocontrols · 14th February 2003, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Redman
Jailing him would be more of a protest against what the US stands for than his burning of the flag, in my opinion.

Maybe he should apply for asylum.

Tmy · 14th February 2003, 12:50 PM

Yknow how they always show these flag burnings in anti-US countries? I wonder where they buy all these flags???? Is there a flag burning store that sells pre-gas soaked flags for better burning?? Really, where does one find a US flag in downtown Baghadad.

aerocontrols · 14th February 2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Yknow how they always show these flag burnings in anti-US countries? I wonder where they buy all these flags???? Is there a flag burning store that sells pre-gas soaked flags for better burning?? Really, where does one find a US flag in downtown Baghadad.

They take them off the masts of captured US warships.

Troll · 14th February 2003, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Yknow how they always show these flag burnings in anti-US countries? I wonder where they buy all these flags???? Is there a flag burning store that sells pre-gas soaked flags for better burning?? Really, where does one find a US flag in downtown Baghadad.

It's one of our hotest exports. Yay them for buying American

Bjorn · 14th February 2003, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LucienVanImpe
Legal precedence suggests that he may land himself a jail term because of this satirical stunt - in case an official complaint is filed with the authorities:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...ticleID=490466

The Land of the Midnight Sun also contributed this anti-American diatribe to the political discourse on Iraq last month:

http://home.online.no/~ivajoha/htmlformat.html

Note the signatories. An ambassador and former leader of the Labor Party, high-ranking trade unionists, several MP's, journalists etc. The launcher of the campaign is a host on national, public television.

Wow!

A Norwegian taking his freedom of speech seriously!

Lucien, even with famous names on the list, I don't think you should mix up the Norwegian nation with those protestors - Norway is in general one of the nicest guys in class, standing to attention when principal US says so.

The Fool · 14th February 2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarryKeogh
guess he should have burned the flag in the USA. we recognize it as free speech.

And so it should be. Within the constraints of fire safety laws you should (In a Free Country) be able to burn anything you damn well like....Isn't this what the USA says it is fighting for? Freedom?

Troll · 14th February 2003, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool

And so it should be. Within the constraints of fire safety laws you should (In a Free Country) be able to burn anything you damn well like....Isn't this what the USA says it is fighting for? Freedom?

Actually it's the freedom of Starbucks and McDonalds. I mean we're sick of seeing them on every corner and would like to open up a market in some other country for them.

shanek · 14th February 2003, 06:43 PM

Tim Slagle has a great flag burning routine he's been doing for several years. Penn & Teller recently added one to their show (although it's more of a flag-disappearing-act-behind-flash-paper than a flag burning). When are these guys going to be arrested?

Jespersen's burning was accidental. That makes prison even more ridiculous.

LucienVanImpe · 14th February 2003, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bjorn
A Norwegian taking his freedom of speech seriously!

But apparently Norwegian freedom of speech doesn't extend to setting symbolic pieces of cloth on fire.

From the article: "Legal experts agree that the flag-burning is clearly illegal and that precedence exists for jail terms for similar acts."

And even if it was legal, which indeed I think it should be, I'd still find it to be a distasteful deed, even if cloaked as satire. I wonder if the comedian would have the guts to burn the Norwegian flag. Or that of Iraq.

Quote:

Lucien, even with famous names on the list, I don't think you should mix up the Norwegian nation with those protestors - Norway is in general one of the nicest guys in class, standing to attention when principal US says so.

I know the letter does not reflect the position of the Norwegian government, or of Norway as a whole, but I find it interesting that members of parliament would willingly sign such a clunky and spiteful composition.

For instance, how is one to interpret these words:

"If we can do anything to help you
get rid of George W. Bush
before he wrecks your reputation
and messes up the whole planet,
please let us know!"

Are they going to hire an assassin?

LucienVanImpe · 14th February 2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek
Jespersen's burning was accidental. That makes prison even more ridiculous.

It wasn't accidental. It was meant to appear accidental.

As he gives a speech about turning Baghdad into a crematorium, he 'happens' to set the Stars & Stripes on fire instead.

Satirical twist.

rikzilla · 15th February 2003, 06:30 AM

So that's how free Norway is????

I guess that's why Claus Larsen lives in NYC eh???

-zilla

Advocate · 15th February 2003, 08:47 AM

Does anyone else find it amusing that burning an American flag is legal in the US but illegal in Norway?

Bjorn · 15th February 2003, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Advocate
Does anyone else find it amusing that burning an American flag is legal in the US but illegal in Norway?

Yes, that was my first thought after reading it - could the American Embassy in Oslo file charges, when the same act would be legal in the US?

As for the political leaders attitude towards Iraq and the possible war, I think this is more representative:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...ticleID=490609

Quote:

Thorbjørn Jagland: It is extremely important for the Security Council to carry out its decision. If not, all manner of despot can do as they please. Iraq has invaded two other countries, used chemical weapons and supports suicide missions against Israel, which is the crucial reason Sharon now holds power in Israel. So it would be a big advantage for world peace if Iraq was disarmed and Saddam Hussein removed.

Rikzilla, Claus is not Norwegian! Never was!

And if you ask me, I'm not even sure if burning a Norwegian flag is illegal in Norway.

Tasteful, hardly, but the 'comedian' in question is more or less a Norwegian version of Lenny Bruce.

rikzilla · 15th February 2003, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bjorn
Yes, that was my first thought after reading it - could the American Embassy in Oslo file charges, when the same act would be legal in the US?

As for the political leaders attitude towards Iraq and the possible war, I think this is more representative:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...ticleID=490609

Rikzilla, Claus is not Norwegian! Never was!

And if you ask me, I'm not even sure if burning a Norwegian flag is illegal in Norway.

Tasteful, hardly, but the 'comedian' in question is more or less a Norwegian version of Lenny Bruce.

Oh yeah...mea culpa!

Norway..Denmark....it's all good.

Richard G · 15th February 2003, 10:44 AM

My favorite flag burner....

Leif Roar · 15th February 2003, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bjorn

And if you ask me, I'm not even sure if burning a Norwegian flag is illegal in Norway.

It's not - the law in question (Straffeloven paragraph 95) prohibits "mockery against a foreign nation's flag or coat of arms" as well as harassing foreign representatives and trespassing or vandalism against areas and buildings used for foreign representation.

(Note, I'm not a lawyer, so the various terms used in the text of the law might very well contain nuances I'm completely unaware of - in particular the word I've translated as "mockery".)

corplinx · 15th February 2003, 12:58 PM

The thing that always worried me about Americans who supported flag burning amendments is that a great many of them were protestant xians who were clearly making an idol out of the flag.

I am a libertarian when it comes to flag burning. You are free to do it. Of course, if you do it near me you will probably get your ass beat. I however don't believe its any of government's business (except the possible assault charge which I would accept).

In Norway, I cannot believe they have a law against any form of mockery. Mind you, this is where political correctness could take America if unchecked.

Leif Roar · 15th February 2003, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
In Norway, I cannot believe they have a law against any form of mockery. Mind you, this is where political correctness could take America if unchecked.

The precise word used in the text of the law is "forhåning" - "mock" isn't really a precise translation. I suppose "insult" might be closer, but again, this is legal terminology and the word might have a particular legal meaning I'm unaware of.

Personally I consider the first part of this paragraph rather over-zealous, but I wouldn't really say it's an expression of political correctness. I don't know the story of this law, or its use, but it appears to me that its meant to prevent incidents that would cause "bad diplomatic blood."

WMT1 · 17th February 2003, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
I am a libertarian when it comes to flag burning. You are free to do it. Of course, if you do it near me you will probably get your ass beat.

Since you claim to be libertarian, I realize you may only be joking about the last part. But on the chance that you're not, what possible justification would there be for violence - any violence - in response to such a harmless act?

17th February 2003, 12:52 PM

If I go to WalMart and pay $9.95 for a piece of cloth sewn into a particular pattern then decide to burn it, that's my right. If someone wishes to try to beat my ass for it, bring him on. I have had my ass beaten--literally and figuratively--in the past for exercising rights guaranteed to me by the U.S. Constitution. They had to gang up on me to do it, though; chickenshits that they were,

Wayne Grabert · 18th February 2003, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
I am a libertarian when it comes to flag burning. You are free to do it. Of course, if you do it near me you will probably get your ass beat. I however don't believe its any of government's business (except the possible assault charge which I would accept).

I'll go out on a limb and presume you were not the originator of the maxim, "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." You contradict your first two sentences with your third. That's deep thinkin' for ya!

Ove · 18th February 2003, 01:31 AM

Quote:

I guess that's why Claus Larsen lives in NYC eh???

No that is why he's moved.

Occasional Chemist · 18th February 2003, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Troll

It's one of our hotest exports. Yay them for buying American

The flag was probably made in China, if it's anything like the flags a lot of folke were waving about after 9/11.

RandFan · 18th February 2003, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Yknow how they always show these flag burnings in anti-US countries? I wonder where they buy all these flags???? Is there a flag burning store that sells pre-gas soaked flags for better burning?? Really, where does one find a US flag in downtown Baghadad.

Now you are not suggesting that government officials are supplying the flags for propaganda purposes are you?

Edited to fix typo.

RandFan · 18th February 2003, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smalso
If I go to WalMart and pay $9.95 for a piece of cloth sewn into a particular pattern then decide to burn it, that's my right. If someone wishes to try to beat my ass for it, bring him on. I have had my ass beaten--literally and figuratively--in the past for exercising rights guaranteed to me by the U.S. Constitution. They had to gang up on me to do it, though; chickenshits that they were,

The answer to bad speech is more speech. I support your right absolutely Smalso without any reservation or condition. Though I must say that it does hurt me when someone burns my flag. Free speech is simply too important to defend only when government is regulating it.

18th February 2003, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RandFan
The answer to bad speech is more speech. I support your right absolutely Smalso without any reservation or condition. Though I must say that it does hurt me when someone burns my flag. Free speech is simply too important to defend only when government is regulating it.

I'll drink to that. I've never burned a flag in my life and don't intend to. I get steamed when I see someone do it, but I try not to let it show. That's probably why they do it anyway, just to get people worked up. But I support someone's right to do it. It's not up to me to decide what is and is not legitimate protest.

Buzzsaw · 18th February 2003, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smalso
If I go to WalMart and pay $9.95 for a piece of cloth sewn into a particular pattern then decide to burn it, that's my right.

That is a serious case of reductionism, as a flag is supposed to be a symbol of a particular nation. In some sense, it is more than a "piece of cloth sewn into a particular pattern."

In the same sense, I can't go to WalMart, buy a marker and poster board, and exercise my First Ammendment right by writing a particular series of letters on said board stating "I have a bomb" and display it on an airplane without expecting some consequences.

I'm being the devil's advocate here; in some sense a flag is merely a cloth and in some sense it symbolizes a nation. I could display a sign urging people to "kill all fools", but the moment I substitute a real person's name for "fool", I'm in a lot of trouble. The letters of a person's name aren't random characters; taken together they stand for and identify a real person.

Occasional Chemist · 18th February 2003, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buzzsaw

I'm being the devil's advocate here; in some sense a flag is merely a cloth and in some sense it symbolizes a nation. I could display a sign urging people to "kill all fools", but the moment I substitute a real person's name for "fool", I'm in a lot of trouble.

Not really. I haven't seen someone locked up yet for having "Kill Saddam" or "Kill Osama" on their car.

shanek · 18th February 2003, 08:38 PM

I have to admit, flag burning doesn't really bother me. As George Carlin said, "I leave symbols to the symbol-minded."

19th February 2003, 03:09 AM

by Buzzsaw:

Quote:

In the same sense, I can't go to WalMart, buy a marker and poster board, and exercise my First Ammendment right by writing a particular series of letters on said board stating "I have a bomb" and display it on an airplane without expecting some consequences.

Do you honestly not see the difference between these two actions?

crocodile deathroll · 19th February 2003, 05:36 AM

If he bought the flag with his own money then it is really not an American flag but his.
Besides did you take a close look at the label that said "made in China"?

shanek · 19th February 2003, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crocodile deathroll
If he bought the flag with his own money then it is really not an American flag but his.
Besides did you take a close look at the label that said "made in China"?

Tim Slagle actually uses that in his routine. When he talks about burning the flag, and he takes out the flag, he says, "Don't worry; this one only has 49 stars and was made in China."

Buzzsaw · 19th February 2003, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist

Not really. I haven't seen someone locked up yet for having "Kill Saddam" or "Kill Osama" on their car.

Touche! I think Saddam and Osama are beyond the protection of our local police force however.

Buzzsaw · 19th February 2003, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smalso
by Buzzsaw:

Do you honestly not see the difference between these two actions?

Yes, there is a difference, but my point was the U.S. flag can stand for something, or nothing, depending on one's viewpoint. But to describe it as nothing more than a patterned cloth is to deny that it is a symbol at all. Just what that symbol represents is open to interpretation, but even though flag burning annoys me a little, I don't see the need to ban it. Flag burning is an attack on something that can't be burned itself.

20th February 2003, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buzzsaw

Yes, there is a difference, but my point was the U.S. flag can stand for something, or nothing, depending on one's viewpoint. But to describe it as nothing more than a patterned cloth is to deny that it is a symbol at all. Just what that symbol represents is open to interpretation, but even though flag burning annoys me a little, I don't see the need to ban it. Flag burning is an attack on something that can't be burned itself.

Fair enough.

Kodiak · 20th February 2003, 08:37 AM

I've always said that everyone has the right to burn the US flag so long as I have to right to take steps so that it doesn't occur in my presence.

14th February 2003, 10:04 AM	#1
LucienVanImpe Student Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 27	Norway: Comedian Burns US Flag On TV Legal precedence suggests that he may land himself a jail term because of this satirical stunt - in case an official complaint is filed with the authorities: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...ticleID=490466 The Land of the Midnight Sun also contributed this anti-American diatribe to the political discourse on Iraq last month: http://home.online.no/~ivajoha/htmlformat.html Note the signatories. An ambassador and former leader of the Labor Party, high-ranking trade unionists, several MP's, journalists etc. The launcher of the campaign is a host on national, public television.
LucienVanImpe Student Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 27

14th February 2003, 10:49 AM	#2
Michael Redman Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: St. Paul, MN Posts: 3,063	Jailing him would be more of a protest against what the US stands for than his burning of the flag, in my opinion.
	__________________ The rule is perfect; in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane. - Mark Twain

14th February 2003, 12:23 PM	#4
LucienVanImpe Student Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 27	Quote: Originally posted by Michael Redman Jailing him would be more of a protest against what the US stands for than his burning of the flag, in my opinion. Yup, and that's why I believe he can sleep safely. Even though the U.S. Embassy in Norway has criticised the flag burning and characterized it as offensive, I'm quite convinced that they wouldn't like to see him jailed.
LucienVanImpe Student Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 27

14th February 2003, 12:27 PM	#5
aerocontrols Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 3,445	Quote: Originally posted by Michael Redman Jailing him would be more of a protest against what the US stands for than his burning of the flag, in my opinion. Maybe he should apply for asylum.
	__________________ Misunderestimated in 2000. Unredefeated in 2004. My dog does his tricks. My roomate's dog tries to escape the kitchen. We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. Source

14th February 2003, 12:54 PM	#7
aerocontrols Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 3,445	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Yknow how they always show these flag burnings in anti-US countries? I wonder where they buy all these flags???? Is there a flag burning store that sells pre-gas soaked flags for better burning?? Really, where does one find a US flag in downtown Baghadad. They take them off the masts of captured US warships.
	__________________ Misunderestimated in 2000. Unredefeated in 2004. My dog does his tricks. My roomate's dog tries to escape the kitchen. We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. Source

14th February 2003, 10:59 AM	#3
HarryKeogh Catholic School Survivor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 11,342	guess he should have burned the flag in the USA. we recognize it as free speech.

14th February 2003, 12:50 PM	#6
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Yknow how they always show these flag burnings in anti-US countries? I wonder where they buy all these flags???? Is there a flag burning store that sells pre-gas soaked flags for better burning?? Really, where does one find a US flag in downtown Baghadad.

14th February 2003, 02:08 PM	#8
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Yknow how they always show these flag burnings in anti-US countries? I wonder where they buy all these flags???? Is there a flag burning store that sells pre-gas soaked flags for better burning?? Really, where does one find a US flag in downtown Baghadad. It's one of our hotest exports. Yay them for buying American
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478

14th February 2003, 02:29 PM	#9
Bjorn Off Topic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,974	Re: Norway: Comedian Burns US Flag On TV Quote: Originally posted by LucienVanImpe Legal precedence suggests that he may land himself a jail term because of this satirical stunt - in case an official complaint is filed with the authorities: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...ticleID=490466 The Land of the Midnight Sun also contributed this anti-American diatribe to the political discourse on Iraq last month: http://home.online.no/~ivajoha/htmlformat.html Note the signatories. An ambassador and former leader of the Labor Party, high-ranking trade unionists, several MP's, journalists etc. The launcher of the campaign is a host on national, public television. Wow! A Norwegian taking his freedom of speech seriously! Lucien, even with famous names on the list, I don't think you should mix up the Norwegian nation with those protestors - Norway is in general one of the nicest guys in class, standing to attention when principal US says so.
	__________________ Little did I know, that all those days that came and went, were my life ....

14th February 2003, 02:35 PM	#10
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Quote: Originally posted by HarryKeogh guess he should have burned the flag in the USA. we recognize it as free speech. And so it should be. Within the constraints of fire safety laws you should (In a Free Country) be able to burn anything you damn well like....Isn't this what the USA says it is fighting for? Freedom?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

14th February 2003, 02:38 PM	#11
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478	Quote: Originally posted by The Fool And so it should be. Within the constraints of fire safety laws you should (In a Free Country) be able to burn anything you damn well like....Isn't this what the USA says it is fighting for? Freedom? Actually it's the freedom of Starbucks and McDonalds. I mean we're sick of seeing them on every corner and would like to open up a market in some other country for them.
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478

14th February 2003, 06:43 PM	#12
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	Tim Slagle has a great flag burning routine he's been doing for several years. Penn & Teller recently added one to their show (although it's more of a flag-disappearing-act-behind-flash-paper than a flag burning). When are these guys going to be arrested? Jespersen's burning was accidental. That makes prison even more ridiculous.
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

14th February 2003, 09:48 PM	#13
LucienVanImpe Student Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 27	Re: Re: Norway: Comedian Burns US Flag On TV Quote: Originally posted by Bjorn A Norwegian taking his freedom of speech seriously! But apparently Norwegian freedom of speech doesn't extend to setting symbolic pieces of cloth on fire. From the article: "Legal experts agree that the flag-burning is clearly illegal and that precedence exists for jail terms for similar acts." And even if it was legal, which indeed I think it should be, I'd still find it to be a distasteful deed, even if cloaked as satire. I wonder if the comedian would have the guts to burn the Norwegian flag. Or that of Iraq. Quote: Lucien, even with famous names on the list, I don't think you should mix up the Norwegian nation with those protestors - Norway is in general one of the nicest guys in class, standing to attention when principal US says so. I know the letter does not reflect the position of the Norwegian government, or of Norway as a whole, but I find it interesting that members of parliament would willingly sign such a clunky and spiteful composition. For instance, how is one to interpret these words: "If we can do anything to help you get rid of George W. Bush before he wrecks your reputation and messes up the whole planet, please let us know!" Are they going to hire an assassin?
LucienVanImpe Student Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 27

14th February 2003, 09:52 PM	#14
LucienVanImpe Student Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 27	Quote: Originally posted by shanek Jespersen's burning was accidental. That makes prison even more ridiculous. It wasn't accidental. It was meant to appear accidental. As he gives a speech about turning Baghdad into a crematorium, he 'happens' to set the Stars & Stripes on fire instead. Satirical twist.
LucienVanImpe Student Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 27

15th February 2003, 06:30 AM	#15
rikzilla Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 5,001	So that's how free Norway is???? I guess that's why Claus Larsen lives in NYC eh??? -zilla
	__________________ "You have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon." -Chancellor Gorkon "inside Mr .Skinny lives a big man" -pillory (18 Jan 2007)

15th February 2003, 08:47 AM	#16
Advocate Thinker Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 240	Does anyone else find it amusing that burning an American flag is legal in the US but illegal in Norway?
Advocate Thinker Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 240	__________________ John Milton: "I only set the stage. You pull your own strings." - The Devils Advocate

15th February 2003, 09:12 AM	#17
Bjorn Off Topic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,974	Quote: Originally posted by Advocate Does anyone else find it amusing that burning an American flag is legal in the US but illegal in Norway? Yes, that was my first thought after reading it - could the American Embassy in Oslo file charges, when the same act would be legal in the US? As for the political leaders attitude towards Iraq and the possible war, I think this is more representative: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...ticleID=490609 Quote: Thorbjørn Jagland: It is extremely important for the Security Council to carry out its decision. If not, all manner of despot can do as they please. Iraq has invaded two other countries, used chemical weapons and supports suicide missions against Israel, which is the crucial reason Sharon now holds power in Israel. So it would be a big advantage for world peace if Iraq was disarmed and Saddam Hussein removed. Rikzilla, Claus is not Norwegian! Never was! And if you ask me, I'm not even sure if burning a Norwegian flag is illegal in Norway. Tasteful, hardly, but the 'comedian' in question is more or less a Norwegian version of Lenny Bruce.
	__________________ Little did I know, that all those days that came and went, were my life ....

15th February 2003, 09:31 AM	#18
rikzilla Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 5,001	Quote: Originally posted by Bjorn Yes, that was my first thought after reading it - could the American Embassy in Oslo file charges, when the same act would be legal in the US? As for the political leaders attitude towards Iraq and the possible war, I think this is more representative: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...ticleID=490609 Rikzilla, Claus is not Norwegian! Never was! And if you ask me, I'm not even sure if burning a Norwegian flag is illegal in Norway. Tasteful, hardly, but the 'comedian' in question is more or less a Norwegian version of Lenny Bruce. Oh yeah...mea culpa! Norway..Denmark....it's all good.
	__________________ "You have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon." -Chancellor Gorkon "inside Mr .Skinny lives a big man" -pillory (18 Jan 2007)

15th February 2003, 10:44 AM	#19
Richard G Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 940	My favorite flag burner....
Richard G Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 940

15th February 2003, 12:47 PM	#20
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	Quote: Originally posted by Bjorn *And if you ask me, I'm not even sure if burning a Norwegian* flag is illegal in Norway.** It's not - the law in question (Straffeloven paragraph 95) prohibits "mockery against a foreign nation's flag or coat of arms" as well as harassing foreign representatives and trespassing or vandalism against areas and buildings used for foreign representation. (Note, I'm not a lawyer, so the various terms used in the text of the law might very well contain nuances I'm completely unaware of - in particular the word I've translated as "mockery".)
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800

15th February 2003, 12:58 PM	#21
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	The thing that always worried me about Americans who supported flag burning amendments is that a great many of them were protestant xians who were clearly making an idol out of the flag. I am a libertarian when it comes to flag burning. You are free to do it. Of course, if you do it near me you will probably get your ass beat. I however don't believe its any of government's business (except the possible assault charge which I would accept). In Norway, I cannot believe they have a law against any form of mockery. Mind you, this is where political correctness could take America if unchecked.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

15th February 2003, 11:16 PM	#22
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx In Norway, I cannot believe they have a law against any form of mockery. Mind you, this is where political correctness could take America if unchecked. The precise word used in the text of the law is "forhåning" - "mock" isn't really a precise translation. I suppose "insult" might be closer, but again, this is legal terminology and the word might have a particular legal meaning I'm unaware of. Personally I consider the first part of this paragraph rather over-zealous, but I wouldn't really say it's an expression of political correctness. I don't know the story of this law, or its use, but it appears to me that its meant to prevent incidents that would cause "bad diplomatic blood."
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800

17th February 2003, 06:01 AM	#23
WMT1 Guest Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 475	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx I am a libertarian when it comes to flag burning. You are free to do it. Of course, if you do it near me you will probably get your ass beat. Since you claim to be libertarian, I realize you may only be joking about the last part. But on the chance that you're not, what possible justification would there be for violence - any violence - in response to such a harmless act?
WMT1 Guest Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 475

17th February 2003, 12:52 PM	#24
Smalso Guest Posts: n/a	If I go to WalMart and pay $9.95 for a piece of cloth sewn into a particular pattern then decide to burn it, that's my right. If someone wishes to try to beat my ass for it, bring him on. I have had my ass beaten--literally and figuratively--in the past for exercising rights guaranteed to me by the U.S. Constitution. They had to gang up on me to do it, though; chickenshits that they were,
Smalso Guest Posts: n/a

18th February 2003, 12:43 AM	#25
Wayne Grabert Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 629	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx I am a libertarian when it comes to flag burning. You are free to do it. Of course, if you do it near me you will probably get your ass beat. I however don't believe its any of government's business (except the possible assault charge which I would accept). I'll go out on a limb and presume you were not the originator of the maxim, "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." You contradict your first two sentences with your third. That's deep thinkin' for ya!
Wayne Grabert Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 629

18th February 2003, 01:31 AM	#26
Ove Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,884	Quote: I guess that's why Claus Larsen lives in NYC eh??? No that is why he's moved.
	__________________ I am sitting here, completely surrounded by NO BEER..... (Onslow)

18th February 2003, 06:01 AM	#27
Occasional Chemist Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 513	Quote: Originally posted by Troll It's one of our hotest exports. Yay them for buying American The flag was probably made in China, if it's anything like the flags a lot of folke were waving about after 9/11.
Occasional Chemist Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 513	__________________ Warning: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (2) in /usr/local/apache/htdocs/vbulletin/admin/db_mysql.php on line 38

18th February 2003, 06:12 AM	#28
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,182	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Yknow how they always show these flag burnings in anti-US countries? I wonder where they buy all these flags???? Is there a flag burning store that sells pre-gas soaked flags for better burning?? Really, where does one find a US flag in downtown Baghadad. Now you are not suggesting that government officials are supplying the flags for propaganda purposes are you? Edited to fix typo.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

18th February 2003, 06:19 AM	#29
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,182	Quote: Originally posted by Smalso If I go to WalMart and pay $9.95 for a piece of cloth sewn into a particular pattern then decide to burn it, that's my right. If someone wishes to try to beat my ass for it, bring him on. I have had my ass beaten--literally and figuratively--in the past for exercising rights guaranteed to me by the U.S. Constitution. They had to gang up on me to do it, though; chickenshits that they were, The answer to bad speech is more speech. I support your right absolutely Smalso without any reservation or condition. Though I must say that it does hurt me when someone burns my flag. Free speech is simply too important to defend only when government is regulating it.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

18th February 2003, 08:37 AM	#30
Smalso Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by RandFan The answer to bad speech is more speech. I support your right absolutely Smalso without any reservation or condition. Though I must say that it does hurt me when someone burns my flag. Free speech is simply too important to defend only when government is regulating it. I'll drink to that. I've never burned a flag in my life and don't intend to. I get steamed when I see someone do it, but I try not to let it show. That's probably why they do it anyway, just to get people worked up. But I support someone's right to do it. It's not up to me to decide what is and is not legitimate protest.
Smalso Guest Posts: n/a

18th February 2003, 06:17 PM	#31
Buzzsaw New Blood Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 14	Quote: Originally posted by Smalso If I go to WalMart and pay $9.95 for a piece of cloth sewn into a particular pattern then decide to burn it, that's my right. That is a serious case of reductionism, as a flag is supposed to be a symbol of a particular nation. In some sense, it is more than a "piece of cloth sewn into a particular pattern." In the same sense, I can't go to WalMart, buy a marker and poster board, and exercise my First Ammendment right by writing a particular series of letters on said board stating "I have a bomb" and display it on an airplane without expecting some consequences. I'm being the devil's advocate here; in some sense a flag is merely a cloth and in some sense it symbolizes a nation. I could display a sign urging people to "kill all fools", but the moment I substitute a real person's name for "fool", I'm in a lot of trouble. The letters of a person's name aren't random characters; taken together they stand for and identify a real person.
Buzzsaw New Blood Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 14	__________________ "Those that beat their swords into plowshares end up farming for those that didn't."

18th February 2003, 06:51 PM	#32
Occasional Chemist Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 513	Quote: Originally posted by Buzzsaw I'm being the devil's advocate here; in some sense a flag is merely a cloth and in some sense it symbolizes a nation. I could display a sign urging people to "kill all fools", but the moment I substitute a real person's name for "fool", I'm in a lot of trouble. Not really. I haven't seen someone locked up yet for having "Kill Saddam" or "Kill Osama" on their car.
Occasional Chemist Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 513	__________________ Warning: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (2) in /usr/local/apache/htdocs/vbulletin/admin/db_mysql.php on line 38

18th February 2003, 08:38 PM	#33
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	I have to admit, flag burning doesn't really bother me. As George Carlin said, "I leave symbols to the symbol-minded."
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

19th February 2003, 03:09 AM	#34
Smalso Guest Posts: n/a	by Buzzsaw: Quote: In the same sense, I can't go to WalMart, buy a marker and poster board, and exercise my First Ammendment right by writing a particular series of letters on said board stating "I have a bomb" and display it on an airplane without expecting some consequences. Do you honestly not see the difference between these two actions?
Smalso Guest Posts: n/a

19th February 2003, 05:36 AM	#35
crocodile deathroll Muse Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Darwin Posts: 620	If he bought the flag with his own money then it is really not an American flag but his. Besides did you take a close look at the label that said "made in China"?
	__________________ Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company Mark Twain