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EGarrett · 22nd March 2008, 10:39 AM

Obviously they get some kind of practice out of it, but what kind of practice?

Is it to practice catching small prey that moves very quickly? In that case, is bringing the object back simply an "add-on" instinct that allows them to practice the hunting over and over? How did they play this game in the wild? Or is it an instinct that involved only in the few millenia that dogs started living with humans?

The wikipedia article on "fetch" sheds no light on this.

Gagglegnash · 22nd March 2008, 11:18 AM

Hi

Originally Posted by EGarrett

Obviously they get some kind of practice out of it, but what kind of practice?

Is it to practice catching small prey that moves very quickly? In that case, is bringing the object back simply an "add-on" instinct that allows them to practice the hunting over and over? How did they play this game in the wild? Or is it an instinct that involved only in the few millenia that dogs started living with humans?

The wikipedia article on "fetch" sheds no light on this.

It's not necessarily practice for anything practical. It's play, and dogs like to play. It may be an outgrowth of some hunting instinct, but I'm not one of those guys that figures that every action is practice for some survival skill.

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes, a game is just a game.

Dogs are pack animals, and group play strengthens group membership cohesion. Socialization plays an important part in a dog's being well adjusted, as well, and play is an important part of socialization.

One reason wolves don't make very good pets for most people is because wolves need pretty much constant socialization. Without it they become surly and ill tempered. Dogs have been bred to limit the surliness and ill temper, but they still long for socialization. (Ever wonder why they act like that whether you've been gone for 6 hours or 10 minutes?)

Wolves need constantly to be in the pack. Dogs just want it more than about anything.

In the wild, sticks, bones or patches of fur will become a toy for a pack of wolves or dogs, with one grabbing it and flinging it and all the other tussling to get it.

We, as human beings, have replaced the pack in the dog's thinking.

Fetch is particularly fun for a lot of dog because they get to do... well... dog stuff like run at top speed and grab and tussle and bite and and be rambunctious over and over again, which things are normally forbidden to them...

AND sometimes they get to do it with their PACK LEADER! YAAAAY!!

The thrown object comes back to the thrower because the dog learns early on that if it doesn't, the game tends to end early. When the dog's done playing, the thrown object stays wherever it lands.

I used to know a dog whose favorite toy was a hunk of firewood two feet long and four inches in diameter. I'd throw it as far as I could and that dog would fun out there and CATCH it. To protect his teeth, I had to do that, "throw the wrong way," trick to get the log to hit the ground and not his teeth. He'd still, sometimes, go all the way in the wrong direction and still get to the log thrown in the other in time to catch it. Fast dog!

When he was done playing, he'd carry it back to the woodpile, drop it and sit down on it.

Sometimes, a log is more than just a log.

godless dave · 22nd March 2008, 11:50 AM

It's a trait that was bred for in retrievers. You shoot a duck, it lands in the water, and your trusty retriever swims out and brings the duck back to you.

In my experience, though, many dogs, even Labradors, will go after a thrown ball or stick instinctively but need to be trained to bring it back; they'd rather play keep-away.

FreeRomanian · 22nd March 2008, 04:55 PM

hm...

XBoxWarrior · 22nd March 2008, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by EGarrett

The wikipedia article on "fetch" sheds no light on this.

Well, here's your problem.....try "Retriever", not "Fetch".

Now I understand that most dogs will bring toys back to you, but stop when they feel like it. A retriever will never stop, to a fault...

I own a Chesapeake Bay Retriever, who will jump through ice on a frozen pond to bring me his "toy". I have never hunted with 'Moses', but both his parents were farm raised bird dogs. It's in his 'blood' to retrieve, whether it's one of his numerous toys, or the unfortunate squirrel that finds it's way onto my deck...He never kills things, just brings them to me.

It's what makes the Moses happiest...

ETA: Moses said this post was no good without his pic...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retriever

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_Retriever

LukeB · 22nd March 2008, 08:19 PM

Bah, tell that to my Labrador. It maintains a "you threw it, you go get it" attitude.

It took over a year to work out how to swim though so maybe it's just a really slow learner.

casebro · 22nd March 2008, 08:56 PM

I've always assumed it was based on the instinct to bring dinner back to the pups or the alpha leader.

That said, my 10 week old blue heeler/standard poodle cross must be plain greedy. She heels, but don't retrieve nothin. Or maybe she is just too smart to give anything up. Yet.

MetalSeagull · 22nd March 2008, 09:15 PM

You can also look at the Wikipedia article for "prey drive". Aspects of this trait have been selectively bred for in different breeds, for different purposes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prey_drive

My Newfoundland will play fetch for a while, but tires of it long before a retriever would. My Australian Shepherd couldn't be less interested in chasing a toy or bringing it back. She's never fetched anything in her life. But she will try to herd the Newfoundland while the Newf plays fetch.

Ichneumonwasp · 23rd March 2008, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Gagglegnash

I used to know a dog whose favorite toy was a hunk of firewood two feet long and four inches in diameter. I'd throw it as far as I could and that dog would fun out there and CATCH it.

I know it's a typo, but I just have to say that I love that second sentence above.

Deathshead · 23rd March 2008, 08:14 AM

Watch dogs play with other dogs. They don't bring the object back to the pack leader. They play keep away until they find something else to sniff or run around with. Whatever one dog has the others want it as well. Kind of like kids.

quarky · 23rd March 2008, 08:22 AM

I'm trying to breed a dog that will fetch firewood from the woods, and stack it neatly.

so far, no luck.

Lilith · 23rd March 2008, 08:58 AM

My dog was not a ball chaser. At the dog parks, she would chase the dogs that were running after balls, but she was clueless about the whole "fetch" game. I got her when she was several years old, and I assumed no one had taught her this game. She didn't play at all the first year I had her (her previous owners kept her outside 24/7, and I suspect she didn't get enough interaction). She did learn to play, and we had a grand time. But fetch - she never got it (pun intended).

DavidS · 24th March 2008, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Gagglegnash

I used to know a dog whose favorite toy was a hunk of firewood two feet long and four inches in diameter. I'd throw it as far as I could and that dog would fun out there and CATCH it. To protect his teeth, I had to do that, "throw the wrong way," trick to get the log to hit the ground and not his teeth. He'd still, sometimes, go all the way in the wrong direction and still get to the log thrown in the other in time to catch it. Fast dog!

You knew Barney?

That was my dog... full name Bernard P. Fife 'cuz as a pup he'd run to the TV when Andy Griffith reruns came on. Half shepherd, half collie, half the neighborhood (yeah, that's 150% but then he was almost 150 lb); good looking beast, heavy gray undercoat with long guard hairs & flagged legs, black saddle, black mask. Loved his toys, and at his size most of the world qualified as "toy" -- golfballs, bottle rockets, snowballs, rocks, bricks, cinderblocks, firewood. Dad had the neighbor convinced we'd trained him to steal their firewood. Feared nothing but an ironing board (knocked one over as a pup) and a flyswatter (nobody knows why; never used against him, couldn't hurt him anyway).

Well, thunder could send him under a bed (yes, that involved lifting the bed himself to make room), but a hailstorm was great fun; he'd insist on going out. His dense coat was effective padding against golfball-sized hail. He'd stand barking on the patio, catch a stone on the bounce to crack once between his teeth, rinse and repeat.

Our best game was to try to hold Barney from reaching Mom when she called. Though my brothers and I were all healthy teens in the 6'3" 200# class, the record was only about thirty seconds.

I miss Barney <sniffle>.

22nd March 2008, 10:39 AM	#1
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,987	Why do dogs like to fetch? Obviously they get some kind of practice out of it, but what kind of practice? Is it to practice catching small prey that moves very quickly? In that case, is bringing the object back simply an "add-on" instinct that allows them to practice the hunting over and over? How did they play this game in the wild? Or is it an instinct that involved only in the few millenia that dogs started living with humans? The wikipedia article on "fetch" sheds no light on this.
EGarrett Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 2,987	__________________ EG Last edited by EGarrett; 22nd March 2008 at 10:39 AM.

22nd March 2008, 11:18 AM	#2
Gagglegnash Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,447	Hi Originally Posted by EGarrett Obviously they get some kind of practice out of it, but what kind of practice? Is it to practice catching small prey that moves very quickly? In that case, is bringing the object back simply an "add-on" instinct that allows them to practice the hunting over and over? How did they play this game in the wild? Or is it an instinct that involved only in the few millenia that dogs started living with humans? The wikipedia article on "fetch" sheds no light on this. It's not necessarily practice for anything practical. It's play, and dogs like to play. It may be an outgrowth of some hunting instinct, but I'm not one of those guys that figures that every action is practice for some survival skill. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes, a game is just a game. Dogs are pack animals, and group play strengthens group membership cohesion. Socialization plays an important part in a dog's being well adjusted, as well, and play is an important part of socialization. One reason wolves don't make very good pets for most people is because wolves need pretty much constant socialization. Without it they become surly and ill tempered. Dogs have been bred to limit the surliness and ill temper, but they still long for socialization. (Ever wonder why they act like that whether you've been gone for 6 hours or 10 minutes?) Wolves need constantly to be in the pack. Dogs just want it more than about anything. In the wild, sticks, bones or patches of fur will become a toy for a pack of wolves or dogs, with one grabbing it and flinging it and all the other tussling to get it. We, as human beings, have replaced the pack in the dog's thinking. Fetch is particularly fun for a lot of dog because they get to do... well... dog stuff like run at top speed and grab and tussle and bite and and be rambunctious over and over again, which things are normally forbidden to them... AND sometimes they get to do it with their PACK LEADER! YAAAAY!! The thrown object comes back to the thrower because the dog learns early on that if it doesn't, the game tends to end early. When the dog's done playing, the thrown object stays wherever it lands. I used to know a dog whose favorite toy was a hunk of firewood two feet long and four inches in diameter. I'd throw it as far as I could and that dog would fun out there and CATCH it. To protect his teeth, I had to do that, "throw the wrong way," trick to get the log to hit the ground and not his teeth. He'd still, sometimes, go all the way in the wrong direction and still get to the log thrown in the other in time to catch it. Fast dog! When he was done playing, he'd carry it back to the woodpile, drop it and sit down on it. Sometimes, a log is more than just a log.
	__________________ But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -----Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782 Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -----Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

22nd March 2008, 11:50 AM	#3
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,138	It's a trait that was bred for in retrievers. You shoot a duck, it lands in the water, and your trusty retriever swims out and brings the duck back to you. In my experience, though, many dogs, even Labradors, will go after a thrown ball or stick instinctively but need to be trained to bring it back; they'd rather play keep-away.
	Last edited by godless dave; 22nd March 2008 at 11:50 AM.

22nd March 2008, 07:56 PM	#5
XBoxWarrior Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Down in the Treme... Posts: 1,232	Originally Posted by EGarrett The wikipedia article on "fetch" sheds no light on this. Well, here's your problem.....try "Retriever", not "Fetch". Now I understand that most dogs will bring toys back to you, but stop when they feel like it. A retriever will never stop, to a fault... I own a Chesapeake Bay Retriever, who will jump through ice on a frozen pond to bring me his "toy". I have never hunted with 'Moses', but both his parents were farm raised bird dogs. It's in his 'blood' to retrieve, whether it's one of his numerous toys, or the unfortunate squirrel that finds it's way onto my deck...He never kills things, just brings them to me. It's what makes the Moses happiest... ETA: Moses said this post was no good without his pic... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retriever http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_Retriever
	Last edited by XBoxWarrior; 22nd March 2008 at 08:29 PM.

22nd March 2008, 08:19 PM	#6
LukeB Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 214	Bah, tell that to my Labrador. It maintains a "you threw it, you go get it" attitude. It took over a year to work out how to swim though so maybe it's just a really slow learner.
LukeB Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 214	Last edited by LukeB; 22nd March 2008 at 08:31 PM.

22nd March 2008, 04:55 PM	#4
FreeRomanian Thinker Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bucuresti, ROMANIA Posts: 200	hm...

22nd March 2008, 08:56 PM	#7
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,887	I've always assumed it was based on the instinct to bring dinner back to the pups or the alpha leader. That said, my 10 week old blue heeler/standard poodle cross must be plain greedy. She heels, but don't retrieve nothin. Or maybe she is just too smart to give anything up. Yet.
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,887	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts. Last edited by casebro; 22nd March 2008 at 08:58 PM.

22nd March 2008, 09:15 PM	#8
MetalSeagull Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NC Posts: 369	You can also look at the Wikipedia article for "prey drive". Aspects of this trait have been selectively bred for in different breeds, for different purposes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prey_drive My Newfoundland will play fetch for a while, but tires of it long before a retriever would. My Australian Shepherd couldn't be less interested in chasing a toy or bringing it back. She's never fetched anything in her life. But she will try to herd the Newfoundland while the Newf plays fetch.

23rd March 2008, 08:04 AM	#9
Ichneumonwasp Guest Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,221	Originally Posted by Gagglegnash I used to know a dog whose favorite toy was a hunk of firewood two feet long and four inches in diameter. I'd throw it as far as I could and that dog would fun out there and CATCH it. I know it's a typo, but I just have to say that I love that second sentence above.
Ichneumonwasp Guest Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,221

23rd March 2008, 08:14 AM	#10
Deathshead Student Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 42	Fetch and 'keep away' Watch dogs play with other dogs. They don't bring the object back to the pack leader. They play keep away until they find something else to sniff or run around with. Whatever one dog has the others want it as well. Kind of like kids.
Deathshead Student Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 42

23rd March 2008, 08:22 AM	#11
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	I'm trying to breed a dog that will fetch firewood from the woods, and stack it neatly. so far, no luck.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

23rd March 2008, 08:58 AM	#12
Lilith Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Eastern US Posts: 289	My dog was not a ball chaser. At the dog parks, she would chase the dogs that were running after balls, but she was clueless about the whole "fetch" game. I got her when she was several years old, and I assumed no one had taught her this game. She didn't play at all the first year I had her (her previous owners kept her outside 24/7, and I suspect she didn't get enough interaction). She did learn to play, and we had a grand time. But fetch - she never got it (pun intended).
	__________________ "The seat of the soul and the control of voluntary movement - in fact, of nervous functions in general, - are to be sought in the heart. The brain is an organ of minor importance." - Aristotle Last edited by Lilith; 23rd March 2008 at 08:58 AM.

24th March 2008, 10:05 AM	#13
DavidS Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 521	Originally Posted by Gagglegnash I used to know a dog whose favorite toy was a hunk of firewood two feet long and four inches in diameter. I'd throw it as far as I could and that dog would fun out there and CATCH it. To protect his teeth, I had to do that, "throw the wrong way," trick to get the log to hit the ground and not his teeth. He'd still, sometimes, go all the way in the wrong direction and still get to the log thrown in the other in time to catch it. Fast dog! You knew Barney? That was my dog... full name Bernard P. Fife 'cuz as a pup he'd run to the TV when Andy Griffith reruns came on. Half shepherd, half collie, half the neighborhood (yeah, that's 150% but then he was almost 150 lb); good looking beast, heavy gray undercoat with long guard hairs & flagged legs, black saddle, black mask. Loved his toys, and at his size most of the world qualified as "toy" -- golfballs, bottle rockets, snowballs, rocks, bricks, cinderblocks, firewood. Dad had the neighbor convinced we'd trained him to steal their firewood. Feared nothing but an ironing board (knocked one over as a pup) and a flyswatter (nobody knows why; never used against him, couldn't hurt him anyway). Well, thunder could send him under a bed (yes, that involved lifting the bed himself to make room), but a hailstorm was great fun; he'd insist on going out. His dense coat was effective padding against golfball-sized hail. He'd stand barking on the patio, catch a stone on the bounce to crack once between his teeth, rinse and repeat. Our best game was to try to hold Barney from reaching Mom when she called. Though my brothers and I were all healthy teens in the 6'3" 200# class, the record was only about thirty seconds. I miss Barney <sniffle>.
DavidS Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 521