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2nd April 2008, 11:27 AM | #1 |
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Reincarnation Is A FACT!!!!!!!!
Hi. I just did the dramatic thread title to get your attention... buuuutt there does appear to be pretty strong evidence of reincarnation. The evidence is predominantly events where young children appear to know many facts about other places that they could not have been to and people that they could not have met in their life. They claim that they know these facts because they were someone else in a previous life. Some of these claims are backed up by correlations between birth marks and wounds on the body of the 'previous personality'.
I am not expecting all of you to agree with me (mostly the opposite) but I would like to point you in the right direction to start your own research and make your own mind up. This started a few weeks ago when I went to a debate about the existence of god (which was highly entertaining! ) and evidence of reincarnation was brought up. I had to check it out and to me it seems that after the bit of reading I have done so far it seems to be the most likely explanation of the facts. A good start is the wikipedia article (note the scientific research section): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation This is the 'bible' of reincarnation research (which I have not read): http://www.amazon.co.uk/Twenty-Cases...7159670&sr=1-8 Here is a book I recently read and I recommend it: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Before-...7159847&sr=1-1 Objective and intelligent comments appreciated. Dogmatic 'sceptical' rudeness NOT appreciated. Thankyou. |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 11:44 AM | #2 |
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Sure. . .if by "fact" you mean wishful thinking based on nothing but anecdotes.
What is it that survives after death and enters the next body? How could it be that all the things we associate with consciousness seem to be so strongly connected to the physiology of the brain? (If you introduce alcohol, it affects the CNS and results in an altered state of consciousness. Does the "soul" or whatever get drunk at the same time?) In these children who (according to the anecdotes) are able to remember information about their previous lives, how are those memories carried? Is there a different mechanism for that kind of memory compared to normal memory (which we know is dependent on the function of several brain structures)? Maybe the memories are uploaded into a different--non corporeal form and then downloaded into the new body? Care to speculate on that mechanism? In assessing the "evidence" for reincarnation, I'd advise you to remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. (Or put another way, remember to take into account ALL pertinent evidence--including everything we know about the relationship of language, memory, personality to the function of brain structures.) The claim of reincarnation is pretty far out in that in pretty much requires a non-corporeal "thing" to do the same sort of things that the brain does. It also requires that the non-corporeal thing would somehow interact with physical structures in the body. Since reincarnation comes with all this overhead (that is, that it would raise a helluvalot more questions than what it purports to answer, and that the anecdotes or the phenomena that it purports to explain has more parsimonious explanations available). |
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2nd April 2008, 11:50 AM | #3 |
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We are of one mind.
You cannot dismiss the evidence as anecdotal until you have looked at it and as I put this thread up 3 minutes ago that is hardly enough time for you to make a fair evaluation. |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 12:07 PM | #4 |
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"That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons |
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2nd April 2008, 12:14 PM | #5 |
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2nd April 2008, 12:15 PM | #6 |
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Ok if you have read these over these types of studies and the methodology please could you tell me why I can dismiss them?
'anecdotal [ánnik dṓt'l] adjective 1. based on anecdotes or hearsay: consisting of or based on second-hand accounts rather than firsthand knowledge or experience or scientific investigation anecdotal evidence' The methodology of their investigations is scientific in nature. |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 12:17 PM | #7 |
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Could you possibly include links to actual research showing positive results, instead of books that we would have to buy? Not believing in reincarnation myself, I will not spend any money on the books, but I will read anything free that is online.
There may be links in the Wiki article, but skimming through, I only saw what was described before, anectodal evidence. |
2nd April 2008, 12:22 PM | #8 |
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I would like to point out that I don't 'believe' in reincarnation either, it appears to be the rational conclusion from their 40 years of research. I havn't looked online other than to buy a reliable text... but the guy who has headed this type of research is called Dr Ian Stevenson. You might be able to find some of his research papers online.
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 12:28 PM | #9 |
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2nd April 2008, 12:28 PM | #10 |
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I would like to point out an objection I have to dismissing all anecdotal accounts of events based on first hand testimony:
Much of recorded history is based on first and second hand accounts which have been recorded in journals, texts, art etc. Undoubtedly much of it is not reliable, hence history is an art and not a science. However, if all first and second hand accounts are to be dismissed for being 'anecdotal' then there goes all recorded history out of the window. Many of the events of history that are not backed up by physical evidence did not happen. What a shame that would be. |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 12:30 PM | #11 |
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I have been doing a little research on Ian Stevenson, and it seems to me that he never speaks about the methods that he uses to ensure that his tests are carried out properly.
He seems to think that even birthmarks and deformities are due to reincarnation, suggesting that a man that died of a catastrophic shotgun wound to the side of the head was reincarnated as a Turkish boy with a severe facial deformity in this same area. The boy could tell the doctor that he remembers being shot in the head in a past life and the doctor could go looking and picking through cases until he finds a match... Until I see his methods for connecting the *reincarnated* individual with their past self, I cannot believe any of this, and neither should you. |
2nd April 2008, 12:32 PM | #12 |
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I mean that although the evidence does appear to be strong, I have no memory of being reincarnated and I have never met anyone who says they have been reincarnated. Although highly unlikely the entire thing could be a hoax... but the fact that they guy is internationally acknowleged and he has a PhD in biomedical sciences makes him all the more credible.
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 12:33 PM | #13 |
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Reincarnation Is A FACTOID!!!!!!!! *
*fixed yer title fer ya!! |
2nd April 2008, 12:34 PM | #14 |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 12:38 PM | #15 |
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Here I found a bit he writes about his methods
Quote:
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2nd April 2008, 12:43 PM | #16 |
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Actually I don't think I can do that without it being blocked by the censors because of the copywrite issues.
The children often give names of the people that they say they were and then the investigators find their records. If the birthmarks match that is one thing, but when the child is able to name complete strangers under controlled conditions that makes the possibility of coincidence or subconscious suggestion less and less likely. |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 12:46 PM | #17 |
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2nd April 2008, 12:46 PM | #18 |
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How did scientific studies of reincarnation come about? Did the scientists see an abundance of phenomena which, upon investigation left them with no other reasonable conclusion that reincarnation was true? Or did they take a centuries-old belief and attempt to find evidence for it?
While the answer to this question does not settle the matter, I think it is important to know. Children have very active imaginations. I wonder if these same children were spoken to by other scientists, or if follow-up interviews were conducted when they were adults. Among other things, coaching of children, dishonesty on the part of the children or scientists involved, or even general credophilia need to be ruled out. |
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Knowledge is Power! "If we want to teach the Moon is green cheese then we'll do it!" -- Eric Hovind defending his father's pro-creationist stance. (http://www.kent-hovind.com/) "Believe those who seek the truth. Doubt those who find it." |
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2nd April 2008, 12:49 PM | #19 |
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Gate 2501- I think i understand your objection. You think that he sees a boy with a birthmark who says its a wound from a past life then goes to find evidence to support it?
Their general approach is to try to not lead the investigation towards any definate conclusion i.e. they have come across fakers. They will only investigate a 'claim' i.e. i was so and so. So they will only look at autopsy reports of the person the child claims to have been. |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 12:50 PM | #20 |
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Historical claims in the absence of physical evidence are accepted provisionally when the claims are relatively ordinary. Historical claims that include supernatural elements are considered by most historians to be false to the degree the supernatural elements are necessary. In other words, reincarnation is an extraordinary claim and isn't properly accepted based on evidence adequate to reasonably establish that, say, Jesse Bullard was born in Salem IL in 1839 and became the town's biggest millner.
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2nd April 2008, 12:52 PM | #21 |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 12:54 PM | #22 |
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Man... I am reading more about this, and all of my BS detectors are flashing. I don't mean to be rude, so do not take my comments as such.
In one case with a village boy (5 years old), one of the *verified facts* that Stevenson uses in this case is this: -The 5 year old boy said that in his past life " I lived in a home with a full well, and an empty well". -Stevenson *verifies* this when he goes to the house of the dead man that is supposedly the past life of the boy, and finds two vats used for storing grape juice. In the rainy season the deeper vat would gather water, and the shallow would not due to evaporation. This is pure rubbish. Again I do not mean to be rude, but this is not science. |
2nd April 2008, 12:55 PM | #23 |
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2nd April 2008, 12:58 PM | #24 |
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No.
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2nd April 2008, 01:02 PM | #25 |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 01:05 PM | #26 |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 01:05 PM | #27 |
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Knowledge is Power! "If we want to teach the Moon is green cheese then we'll do it!" -- Eric Hovind defending his father's pro-creationist stance. (http://www.kent-hovind.com/) "Believe those who seek the truth. Doubt those who find it." |
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2nd April 2008, 01:06 PM | #28 |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 01:09 PM | #29 |
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Knowledge is Power! "If we want to teach the Moon is green cheese then we'll do it!" -- Eric Hovind defending his father's pro-creationist stance. (http://www.kent-hovind.com/) "Believe those who seek the truth. Doubt those who find it." |
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2nd April 2008, 01:11 PM | #30 |
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Just because Reincarnation is one of the most pervasive delusions of humanity, doesn't mean that it is true, just look at the hysteria surrounding the theory of Anthropogenic-Global-Warming!
As per the definition offered, all research in this area is anecdotal because the investigator must rely on hearsay of the individuals reporting the claim. There really is no way to scientifically test the claim of reincarnation. A researcher might try to approach the subject with a scientific bent to the methodology, but at the outset the data is flawed/tainted, so the results are already suspect... The problem with the whole methodology is that by the time an "scientific" investigator comes on scene, the "scene's" memory has been tainted by the assumptions of those pushing the child forward as an exemplar... Further, human memory is so notoriously unreliable in this lifetime, never mind a prior life... Cheers. |
2nd April 2008, 01:11 PM | #31 |
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Right im off to do some revision. I won't be back for a while. My recommendation is: if you are up for really going through their claims then buy that Life Before Life book. Lots of the objections you guys are coming out with are addressed in there. I really cannot be bothered to counter all your arguments by quoting from the book.
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 01:12 PM | #32 |
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2nd April 2008, 01:12 PM | #33 |
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Others have dissected Ian Stevenson's "proof" before. I have done it for a few cases put forth as best evidence by Montague Keen. They do not stand up. I did this in another forum. If I can find my postings there, I'll copy the relevant bits to here.
Meantime, Space Ed, so that we don't make this a wild chasing of gooses round random mulberry bushes, perhaps you could pick the one case (or at most two cases) from Ian's Twenty Cases that you thing is strongest. It serves everyone very little to come in and say "Debunk everything!" |
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2nd April 2008, 01:12 PM | #34 |
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There is a very good write-up of Ian Stevenson and studies by similar researchers in Mary Roach's book Spook. Her summary of his work is as follows:
Originally Posted by Spook
http://www.amazon.com/Spook-Science-...7166817&sr=8-1 This is a great book, and it also offers a plausible explanation for all the reincarnation experiences studied by the likes of Stevenson. In India, when a child is found to be the reincarnation of someone, they are often the recipient of gifts and attention from the family of the person who died. The parents of that child are often the direct beneficiary of these gifts. If you are a poor couple living in India, why not convince the world that your child is the reincarnation of someone richer in order to receive the benefits of such an arrangement? |
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2nd April 2008, 01:13 PM | #35 | ||
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Reincarnation is fact!
http://image.motortrend.com/f/editor...ris-farley.jpg http://www.funnyleague.com/data/chri...incarnated.jpg
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2nd April 2008, 01:14 PM | #36 |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 01:15 PM | #37 |
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How does any epidemic begin if not locally? They are borne in the Psychon nebula and ride in the slipstream of Occam's razor as it cuts a swathe through the Panpsychistic belt, dropping the Trousertron field shielding Uranus |
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2nd April 2008, 01:16 PM | #38 |
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You are, of course, correct. Much of what we take for history is pretty dodgy. There's lots of degrees of certainty, motivation to embellish is certainly something to take into account when examining claims. Not a few sources have been altered, as well. I suppose the most trustworthy historical fact would be a very boring one corroborated by multiple sources.
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2nd April 2008, 01:18 PM | #39 |
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2nd April 2008, 01:19 PM | #40 |
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I really wish that Chris Farely were back .
Unfortunately my brother thought he was a pterodactyl when we were little, does that mean he was re-incarnated? Magic 8 ball says 'Yes' |
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