The Watseka Wonder

[Garrette]

This thread was supposed to be about alleged cases of reincarnation as put forth by Ian Stevenson. It became, partly due to me, a discussion about the Watseka Wonder. Rodney claims that my minimalized debunking (copied from my post on another forum) were both inaccurate and unsubstantiated. Ordinarily I would continue to insist (as I began to do in that other thread) that Rodney make some specific claims first as Rodney is in the habit of throwing out claim after claim without providing any real specifics, insisting that skeptics play whack-a-psychic. But as I had done nearly all the work required when I wrote my original post on the other forum, I decided to go ahead.

This is my response to Rodney:

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The spiritualist physician who saw Lurancy Vennum (after being recommended and introduced by Mr. Roff) was E. Winchester Stevens.

In 1878 he published a lengthy pamphlet detailing the Watseka case. All quotations below are from that pamphlet, the text of which I got from this website.

(The pdf versions won’t download for me, so I got the full text version which indicates page breaks but has none of the illustrations I gather are in the original.) This version has quite a few errors in spelling and possibly in transcription. What you see below is uncorrected from the download. Comments in [brackets] are mine. The dashes (-) in the middle of some words were apparently in the original pamphlet to demonstrate word breaks. They make sense in the download but make for very short lines. I therefore have made the lines longer but left the dashes in to show the original line breaks. Some paragraph breaks are mine to add clarity.

Quote:

The family [the Vennums] moved to Iowa, July, 12th, 1864, and return-ed to the vicinity eight miles from Watseka, in Oct., 1865. In August, 1866, they removed to Milford, twelve miles south of Watseka, and remained there till March 1st, 1870, then moved out two and one-half miles from Mil-ford until April 1st, 1871, when they moved into Watseka, locating about forty rods from the residence of A. B. Roff,

According to my research, a rod is anywhere from 15 feet to 20 feet. Assuming the longer distance, that means the Vennums lived 800 feet from the Roffs. So yes, Rodney, the Vennums and the Roffs were neighbors, at least according to the physician who was there.

Quote:

The only acquaintance ever had between the two families during the season, was simply one brief call of Mrs. Roff, for a few minutes, on Mrs. Vennum, which call was never returned ; and a form-al speaking acquaintance between the two gentlemen.

Let’s take this at face value. That means that the best case for those in favor of the reincarnation or possession explanation includes an admission that the two families did in fact know each other prior to the occurrence.

Quote:

Since 1871, the Vennum family have lived entirely away from the vicinity of Mr. Roff's, and never nearer than now, on extreme opposite limits of the city.

Ahah. So the Vennum’s weren’t neighbors the whole time but were very close for a while and at the time of the occurrence lived in the same city.

Quote:

From this time on until the 1st of Febru-ary, 1878, she would have these trances and sometimes a seemingly real obsession, from three to eight and sometimes as many as twelve times a day, lasting from one to eight hours, occasionally passing into that tate of ecstasy, when, as Lurancy, she claimed to be in heaven

This gets to Rodney’s claim that there were episodes of possession prior to Dr. Stevens and Mr. Roff seeing her. I chose my words carefully and correctly.

There were no episodes of possession prior to Dr. Stevens seeing her. There were episodes of trances, during none of which did Lurancy manifest any other personality. It was not until she was seen by two ardent spiritualists looking for signs of possession (or mediumship) that she showed any such signs.

Quote:

Mr. Roff, after much persuasion, obtained the consent of the girl's father, to visit her and bring with him Dr. E. W. Stevens, of Janesville Wis., to investigate the case.

Notice the “after much persuasion.” So Mr. Roff knew Mr. Vennum well enough to badger him about a recommended course of treatment for Vennum’s daughter. Hardly the indications of a stranger to the family.

Quote:

On the afternoon of January 31st, 1878, the two gentlemen repaired to Mr. Ven-num's residence, a little out of the city. Dr. Stevens, an entire stranger to the family, was introduced by Mr. Roff at four o'clock p. M. ; no other persons present but the fam-ily.

This gets to Rodney’s claim that the “account is silent” on whether or not Roff was present during the first session. The account is not silent at all. Stevens is quite clear. Only those who later want to dress the tale up as more impressive than it is manage to leave out this crucial point.

Rodney also asks “how does this debunk the story?”

For a general answer: It shows quite conclusively that the circumstances surrounding the case were more conducive to wishful thinking than to actual reincarnation.

For a specific answer, keep reading. The next section is long but follow directly on the previous quotation. It is the entirety of the first session with Lurancy Vennum as conducted by Dr. Stevens and facilitated by Mr. Roff.

Quote:

The girl sat near the stove, in a com-mon chair, her elbows on her knees, her hands under her chin, feet curled up on the chair, eyes staring, looking every way like an "old hag." She sat for a time in silence, untij Dr. Stevens moved his chair, when she savagely warned him not to come ne r-er. She appeared sullen and crabbed, call-ing her father "Old Black Dick, and her mother "Old Granny." She refused to be touched, even to shake hands, and was reticent and sullen with all save the doctor, with whom she entered freely into conver-sation, giving her reasons for doing so ; she said he was a Spiritual doctor and would understand her.

When he asked her name she quickly re-plied:

"Katrina Hogan."

"How old?"

"Sixty-three years."

"Where from?"

"Germany."

"How long ago ? "

"Three days."

"How did you come? "

"Through the air."

"How long will you stay f "

"Three weeks."

After this system of conversation had proceeded for some time, she modified her manners very much, appearing to be a little penitent and confidential.and said she would be honest and tell the doctor her real name.

She was not a woman; and her real name was Willie. On being asked what was her father's name, replied, " Peter Canning, and her own name was Willie Canning, a young man; ran away from home, got into difficulty, changed his name several times and fin-ally lost his life and was now here because he wanted to be," etc. She wearied with answering questions and giving details.

Then she turned unpn the doctor with a perfect shower of questions, such as, "What is your name ? Were do you live ? Are you married? How many children? How many boys ? How many girls ? What is your oc-cupation ? What kind of a doctor ? What did you come to Watseka for ? Have you ever been at the South Pole ? North Pole ? Europe ? Australia? Egypt? Ceylon? Benares ? Sand-wich Islands ? " and by along series of ques-tions evinced a knowledge of geography.

She next inquired after the doctor's habits and morals by questions like the folio wing: "Do you lie ? get drunk ? steal ? swear ? use tobac-co? tea? coffee? Do you go to church? pray ? " etc., etc.

She then asked to have the same questions put Mr. Roff. She de-clined to ask them direct, herself, but through the doctor. They must also be re-peated through him to Mr. Vennum, making: the while, some very unpleasant retorts.

When, at about half-past five o'clock,?. M.,. the visitors arose to depart, she also arose, flung up her hands and fell upon the 1 floor, straight, stiff and rigid, as I have often seen sensitives fall with the " power" in Metho-dist revival meetings, and believing it to be of the same nature, the doctor took occasion to prove it, as he has done on those smitten-with the "power," by controlling body and mind and restoring them to a normal and
rational state, despite the " power."

The visitors being again seated, he took her hands as they were held straight up-wards, like iron bars, and by magnetic ac-tion soon had the body under perfect con-trol, and through the laws of Spiritual sci-ence, was soon in full and free communica-tion with the sane and happy mind of Lu-rancy Vennum herself, who conversed with, the grace and sweetness of an angel, declar-ing herself to be in heaven.

In this condition she answered the doctor's questions with reference to herself , her seem-ingly insane condition and the influences-that controlled her, with great rationality and understanding. She regretted to have such evil controls about her. She said she knew the evil spirit calling itself Katrina and Willie and others.

The doctor contin-ued to suggest to her mind, things to pre-pare the way for a change of influences, by enlightening and instructing her no w while her mind was clear and in this superior con-dition, and then asked her, if she must be controlled, if it would not be better, if it were possible, to have a higher, purer, hap-pier, and more intelligent or rational con-trol. She said she would rather, if it could be so.

Then on being advised, she looked about and inquired of those she saw, and described, and named, to find some one who would prevent the cruel and insane ones from returning to annoy her and the fami-ly. She soon said: "There are a great many spirits here who would be glad to come," and she again proceeded to give names and de-scriptions of persons long since deceased ; some that she had never known, but were known by older persons present. But, she said, there is one the angels desire should come, and she wants to come. On being asked if she knew who it was, she said: "Her name is Mary Roff.''

Mr. Kofi being present, said: "That is my daughter ; Mary Roff is my girl. Why, she has been in heaven twelve years. Yes, let her come, we'll be glad to have her come." Mr. Kofi assured Lurancy that Mary was good and intelligent and would help her all she could; stating further that Mary used to be subject to con-ditions like herself. Lurancy, after due de-liberation and counsel with spirits, said that Mary would take the place of the former wild and unreasonable influence. Mr. Roff said to her: "Have your mother bring you to my house and Mary will be likely to come along, and a mutual benefit may be derived from our former experience with Mary."

Thus reaching the sane mind of the girl and through her, the sane minds of a better class of spirits, a contract or agreement was made, to be kept sacred by the angels in Heaven and Heaven's agents in the flesh, by which a mortal body was to be restored to health ; a spirit, unfortunate in earth life, with twelve years' experience in spirit life, to have an amended earthly experience, a child to be spiritualized and moulded into a fine medium, an unbelieving and scof-fing city to be confounded, and the greatest truth the world has ever sought, establish-ed beyond doubt or cavil. How far the con-tract has been kept by the spirits and their faithful co-laborers here, the sequel will show.

The object of the visit now being attain-ed. Dr. Stevens asked :

" How long do you want to stay in this heaven ? "

She answered.

"Always sir."

"But you will come DacK for the sake of your friends ? "

"Yes, sir."

"When will you come back ? "

"At twelve o'clock."

"But the family will want rest. Can't you come sooner ? "

"Yes, sir, I can."

"How soon can you come? "

"At nine o'clock, sir."

"Will you come at nine V "

"I will."

And so she did.

After nearly three hours of careful in-vestigation, conversation, and the applica-tion of the laws of Spiritual science and har-mony, Mr. Roff and the doctor retired, leav-ing the family satisfied that a new fountain of light and source of help had been reached. A new beam of truth reached and touched the hearts of the sorrowing family, and to use the language of Mary Roff, "Dr. Stev-ens opened the gate for her," and for the inflowing of light where before was dark-ness.

And that is why having Mr. Roff there debunks the case. (And also why having Dr. Stevens conduct this “investigation” proved nothing). It was Stevens who said not to use those other personalities. It was Roff who decided Lurancy should stick with the spirit of his daughter. And both Stevens and Roff answered questions from Vennum before asking any substantive ones of their own.

Quote:

On the following morning,Friday, Feb. 1st, Mr. Vennum called at the office of Mr. Roff and informed him that the girl claimed to be Mary Roff and wanted to go home. To use Mr. Vennum's words : "She seems like a child real home-sick, wanting to see her pa and ma and her brothers."

So now the stage is set for Lurancy Vennum to move in with the Roffs.

Quote:

On the llth day of February, 1878, they sent the girl to Mr. Roff's, where she met her "pa and ma," and each member of the family, with the most gratifying express-ions of love and affection, by words and em-braces. On being asked how long she would stay, she said, "The angels will let me stay till some time in May ;" and she made it her
home there till May 21st, three months and ten days, a happy, contented daughter and sister in a borrowed body.

So there it is. Before any of the hits happened, Vennum moved in with the Roffs.

Come to think of it, I may have misspoken earlier. I said Vennum made several visits to the Roffs. What I should have said was Vennum actually lived with the Roffs during all the time of her amazing hits.

I think I’m done now.

[ExMinister]

Interesting story. I can see how the supposed hits are well explained, but psychologically speaking, has anyone speculated on why the girl then went on to live a normal life? According to the link, once she returned home, she was "fine," so I'm curious if anyone has figured out the psychology behind what might have happened. If you subtract out the woo, what type of psychological condition does this describe? Was she hallucinating? Pretending? Perhaps it happened so long ago, it's impossible to know.

[Garrette]

Originally Posted by ExMinister

Interesting story. I can see how the supposed hits are well explained, but psychologically speaking, has anyone speculated on why the girl then went on to live a normal life? According to the link, once she returned home, she was "fine," so I'm curious if anyone has figured out the psychology behind what might have happened. If you subtract out the woo, what type of psychological condition does this describe? Was she hallucinating? Pretending? Perhaps it happened so long ago, it's impossible to know.

I've no real idea, though I will say that the first time I read the claims about this case my immediate thoughts were along the lines of "Hmmm....another attention-seeking adolescent who found a willing audience." Can't say those thoughts have changed.

[Rodney]

Originally Posted by Garrette

The spiritualist physician who saw Lurancy Vennum (after being recommended and introduced by Mr. Roff) was E. Winchester Stevens.

In 1878 he published a lengthy pamphlet detailing the Watseka case. All quotations below are from that pamphlet, the text of which I got from this website.

That is very helpful, Garrette.

Originally Posted by Garrette

According to my research, a rod is anywhere from 15 feet to 20 feet. Assuming the longer distance, that means the Vennums lived 800 feet from the Roffs. So yes, Rodney, the Vennums and the Roffs were neighbors, at least according to the physician who was there.

You stated on the other thread that the "Roffs were long-time neighbors of the Vennums." Dr. Stevens states that they lived close to one another only during the spring and summer of 1871 and "the only acquaintance ever had between the two families during the season, was simply one brief call of Mrs. Roff, for a few minutes, on Mrs. Vennum, which call was never returned; and a formal speaking acquaintance between the two gentlemen."

Originally Posted by Garrette

Let’s take this at face value. That means that the best case for those in favor of the reincarnation or possession explanation includes an admission that the two families did in fact know each other prior to the occurrence.

Ahah. So the Vennum’s weren’t neighbors the whole time but were very close for a while and at the time of the occurrence lived in the same city.

Why do you conclude that the two families were close? And why do you suppose that Lurancy Vennum did not begin to have her trances in 1871, when the families lived close to one another, but rather began to have them in 1877, when the families lived "on extreme opposite limits of the city"?

Originally Posted by Garrette

This gets to Rodney’s claim that there were episodes of possession prior to Dr. Stevens and Mr. Roff seeing her. I chose my words carefully and correctly.

There were no episodes of possession prior to Dr. Stevens seeing her. There were episodes of trances, during none of which did Lurancy manifest any other personality. It was not until she was seen by two ardent spiritualists looking for signs of possession (or mediumship) that she showed any such signs.

So I guess the following episodes described by Dr. Stevens don't count for anything:

A few days before the following incidents took place, she said to her family: "There were persons in my room last night, and they called 'Rancy I Rancy I ' and I felt their breath on my face." The very next night she arose from her bed, saying that she could not sleep, that every time she tried to sleep, persons came and called "Rancy I Rancy I " to her. Her mother went to bed with her, after which she rested and slept the rest of the night.

On the 11th day of July, 1877, Lurancy had been sewing carpet a part of the afternoon, when, at about six o'clock she laid by her work, as her mother said: "Lurancy, you had better commence getting supper." The girl replied: "Ma, I feel bad; I feel so queer,' and placing her hand to her left breast, she immediately went into what seemed like a fit, falling heavily on the floor, lying apparently dead, every muscle becoming suddenly rigid. Thus she lay five hours. On returning to consciousness she said she felt "very strange and queer." The remainder of the night she rested well. The next day the rigid state returned, and passing beyond the rigidity, her mind took cognizance of two states of being at the same time. Lying as if dead, she spoke freely, telling the family what persons and spirits she could see, describing them and calling some of them by name. Among those mentioned were her sister and brother, for she exclaimed, "Oh, mother! can't you see little Laura and Bertie? They are so beautiful!" etc., etc. Bertie died when Lurancy was but three years old.

She had many of these trances, describing Heaven and the spirits, or the angels as she called them. Sometime in September she became free from them and seemed to the family to be quite well again.

On the 27th day of November, 1877, she was attacked with a most violent pain in her stomach, some five or six times a day; for two weeks she had the most excruciating pains. In these painful paroxysms, she would double herself back until her head and feet actually touched. At the end of two weeks, or about the 11th of December, in these distressed attacks, she became unconscious and passed into a quiet trance, and, as at former times, would describe Heaven and spirits, often calling them angels.

From this time on until the 1st of February, 1878, she would have these trances and sometimes a seemingly real obsession, from three to eight and sometimes as many as twelve times a day, lasting from one to eight hours, occasionally passing into that state of ecstasy, when, as Lurancy, she claimed to be in heaven.

Originally Posted by Garrette

Notice the “after much persuasion.” So Mr. Roff knew Mr. Vennum well enough to badger him about a recommended course of treatment for Vennum’s daughter. Hardly the indications of a stranger to the family.

Dr. Stevens' account puts a completely different slant on the situation:

There were in the city of Watseka at this time, persons who had more humanity than bigotry; persons who believe, in the language of Bishop A. Beals, that "disease has a dynamic or spiritual origin;" persons claiming to understand something of the occult forces and phenomena of mind, and the diseases incident to a false conception of, and opposition to, its potencies; persons who believe, God being " no respecter of persons " and "without variableness or shadow of turning," that power exists today, as in the days of the Nazarene, to cast out devils. Among this class were Asa B. Roff and his wife, who, with others, became thoroughly aroused to the importance of arresting the movement, to take a lovely child from the bosom of an affectionate family, to imprison her among maniacs, to be ruled and cared for by ignorant and bigoted strangers, who know less of catalepsy than a blind materialist does of immortality. These good people ventured in the most gentle and Christian spirit, to counsel with the parents and advise other treatment, different from any that had been administered.

These earnest, self-sacrificing souls, imbued with the conviction that uncultivated spirits had something to do with the case, plead with the many friends of the child, to withhold her from the asylum until it could be better shown whether the girl was really insane, or her unfortunate condition might be attributable to foreign minds.

Originally Posted by Garrette

This gets to Rodney’s claim that the “account is silent” on whether or not Roff was present during the first session. The account is not silent at all. Stevens is quite clear. Only those who later want to dress the tale up as more impressive than it is manage to leave out this crucial point.

The account that I referenced was silent on this issue, but, okay, Mr. Roff was there, according to Dr. Stevens' account. I still don't see any support for your contention that "Stevens had treated Mary Roff."

Originally Posted by Garrette

Rodney also asks “how does this debunk the story?”

For a general answer: It shows quite conclusively that the circumstances surrounding the case were more conducive to wishful thinking than to actual reincarnation.

For a specific answer, keep reading. The next section is long but follow directly on the previous quotation. It is the entirety of the first session with Lurancy Vennum as conducted by Dr. Stevens and facilitated by Mr. Roff.

And that is why having Mr. Roff there debunks the case. (And also why having Dr. Stevens conduct this “investigation” proved nothing). It was Stevens who said not to use those other personalities. It was Roff who decided Lurancy should stick with the spirit of his daughter. And both Stevens and Roff answered questions from Vennum before asking any substantive ones of their own.

So now the stage is set for Lurancy Vennum to move in with the Roffs.

So there it is. Before any of the hits happened, Vennum moved in with the Roffs.

Come to think of it, I may have misspoken earlier. I said Vennum made several visits to the Roffs. What I should have said was Vennum actually lived with the Roffs during all the time of her amazing hits.

You're glossing over all the hits Dr. Stevens describes, including some that did not involve the Roffs. For example:

Some days after Mary [Lurancy] was settled in her new home, Mrs. Parker, who lived neighbor to the Roff's in Middleport in 1852, and next door to them in Watseka in 1860, came in with her daughter-in-law, Nellie Parker. Mary immediately recognized both of the ladies, calling Mrs. Parker "Auntie Parker," and the other "Nellie," as in the acquaintance of eighteen years ago. In conversation with Mrs. Parker, Mary asked, "Do you remember how Nervie and I used to come to your house and sing?" Mrs. Parker says that was the first allusion made to that matter, nothing having been said by any one on that subject, and says that Mary and Minerva used to come to their house and sit and sing, "Mary had a little lamb," etc. Mrs. Dr. Alter (Minerva) says she remembers it well. This was when Mr. Roff kept the postoffice, and could not have been later than 1852, and twelve years before Lurancy was born.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________
Further, do you assume that the Roffs simply lied about the hits they say they experienced? For example:

One evening in the latter part of March, Mr. Roff was sitting in the room waiting for tea, and reading the paper, Mary being out in the yard. He asked Mrs. Roff if she could find a certain velvet head-dress that Mary used to wear the last year before she died. If so, to lay it on the stand and say nothing about it, to see if Mary would recognize it. Mrs. Roff readily found and laid it on the stand. The girl soon came in, and immediately exclaimed as she approached the stand: "O, there is my head-dress I wore when my hair was short !" She then asked, "Ma, where is my box of letters ? Have you got them yet?" Mrs. Roff replied, "Yes, Mary, I have some of them." She at once got the box with many letters in it. As Mary began to examine them she said, O, "Ma, here is a collar I tatted! Ma, why, did you not show to me my letters and things before?" The collar had been preserved among the relics of the lamented child as one of the beautiful things her fingers had wrought before Lurancy was born; and so Mary continually recognized every little thing and remembered every little incident of her girlhood.

It will be remembered that the family moved to Texas in 1857. Mr. Roff asked Mary if she remembered moving to Texas or anything about it. "Yes, pa, and I remember crossing Red river and of seeing a great many Indians, and I remember Mrs. Reeder's girls, who were in our company,' and other incidents and facts. And thus she from time to time made first mention of things that transpired thirteen to twenty-five years ago.

On the 19th of February Mr. Roff addressed the writer as follows :

"You know how we took the poor, dear girl Lurancy (Mary). Some appreciate our motives, but the many, without investigation and without a knowledge of the facts, cry out against us and against that angel girl. Some say she pretends; others that she is crazy; and we hear that some say it is the devil. * * * Mary is perfectly happy; she recognizes everybody and everything that she knew when in her body twelve or more years ago. She knows nobody nor anything whatever that is known by Lurancy. * * * Mr. Vennum has been to see her, and also her brother Henry, at different times, but she don't know anything about them. Mrs. Vennum is still unable to come and see her daughter. She has been nothing but Mary since she has been here, and knows nothing but what Mary knew.

Originally Posted by Garrette

I think I’m done now.

Before you leave this subject, consider that Lurancy Vennum lived to the ripe old age of 88. To my knowledge, she never confessed to having participated in a hoax. Why not, do you suppose?