A question for the religious

MarkCorrigan · 4th April 2008, 03:49 AM

This has, at some point, probably been asked before, but I did a search and couldn't find it on the first couple of pages, so here goes. I will make a number of assumptions in order to frame the question. If any of my assumptions are incorrect, please say so, and describe why they are incorrect.

To those who are theists and believe in heaven.

Why are we alive?

Assuming that god exists and is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and that he created (if not directly then via a system) everyone, correct? Since he is omniscient he knew all the details of our lives before he created any of us. Therefore he would KNOW that I would be an atheist.

Now, assuming one can only get to heaven by belief, this means I am going to hell. Therefore god knew before time that I would be going to hell. If he is omnibenevolent he would want me to go to heaven, yes? Therefore why did he not just send me, and by extension all of us, directly to heaven?

Why bother wasting our time with life, which in a number of cases leads us away from him, and in all cases leads to suffering, much of which around the world is accute? Why doesn't he just create us in heaven? He can (omnipotent), he knows some will fail, and therefore not get into heaven (omniscient) and he loves us all and wants us to get to heaven (omnibenevolent) and yet we are born into this world. Unless one takes the view that this world IS heaven, why does god mess us around so much?

MG1962 · 4th April 2008, 04:16 AM

Free will

MarkCorrigan · 4th April 2008, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Free will

But that doesn't work, because an omniscient god violates free will.

If god is omniscient he knows exactly what choices you make, and yet he created you anyway. Therefore while you technically have the ability to choose your action, he already knows what you will choose. How is a predetermined event free will?

ceo_esq · 4th April 2008, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

But that doesn't work, because an omniscient god violates free will.

It's not clear that an omniscient god, as such, would violate free will. The Stanford and IEP encyclopedia articles on the topic are useful background:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/foreknow.htm
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fr...foreknowledge/

MG1962 · 7th April 2008, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

But that doesn't work, because an omniscient god violates free will.

If god is omniscient he knows exactly what choices you make, and yet he created you anyway. Therefore while you technically have the ability to choose your action, he already knows what you will choose. How is a predetermined event free will?

But does he tell you what path you are going to take

David Swidler · 7th April 2008, 02:28 AM

Here's a possible approach:

Heaven/hell is not the purpose, merely a consequence. The relationship between God and person/humanity itself is the goal, and that relationship is only manifest in a world where a person is free to recognize and develop it.

Robin · 8th April 2008, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

It's not clear that an omniscient god, as such, would violate free will. The Stanford and IEP encyclopedia articles on the topic are useful background:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/foreknow.htm
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fr...foreknowledge/

Of course it all depends on what you mean by free will.

Augustinian and Molinist (middle way) free will doctrines depend on free will being strictly deterministic.

For many people these days a free will that is deterministic is a contradiction.

Greediguts · 8th April 2008, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

But does he tell you what path you are going to take

But the question is doesn't he KNOW which path you are going to take?

How can you "give free will" ??

Did Adam and Eve have "free will" before eating from the tree of knowledge??

Is there "free will" in Heaven? Or Hell? Or is that removed once we "cross over"?

MarkCorrigan, don't know if you've read these books but Michael Shermer covers free will vs. determinism in Chapter 4 of "The Science of Good and Evil". Daniel Dennett also wrote the book "Elbow Room: The Varieties of Free Will Worth Wanting". Both worth reading.

Autolite · 8th April 2008, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

But that doesn't work, because an omniscient god violates free will.

Oh my! A religious contradiction. Someone stop the presses!!!

AvalonXQ · 4th December 2009, 06:38 AM

The answers already given here cover the basic response. There is value to the process by which human beings exercise their free will to decide to obey God. Because obeying God by choice is more valuable to God than simply obeying God by necessity, the window of free will choice offered to humans by our lives in the material world is of value to God.

MarkCorrigan · 4th December 2009, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

The answers already given here cover the basic response. There is value to the process by which human beings exercise their free will to decide to obey God. Because obeying God by choice is more valuable to God than simply obeying God by necessity, the window of free will choice offered to humans by our lives in the material world is of value to God.

What now?

That wasn't what was asked at all, and forgive me, is rather hard to comprehend. I THINK you're saying that God would rather you follow his rules by your own free will. Ok, fair enough, but if god knows everything, including the future, how can free will exist?

If I flip a coin to make a decision, god already knows which side it will land on. There isn't any luck involved, there's no real choice because my path was laid down for me. It doesn't matter what choices I assigned to heads and tails, it cannot come up as anything other than heads.

AvalonXQ · 4th December 2009, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

What now?

That wasn't what was asked at all, and forgive me, is rather hard to comprehend. I THINK you're saying that God would rather you follow his rules by your own free will. Ok, fair enough, but if god knows everything, including the future, how can free will exist?

If I flip a coin to make a decision, god already knows which side it will land on. There isn't any luck involved, there's no real choice because my path was laid down for me. It doesn't matter what choices I assigned to heads and tails, it cannot come up as anything other than heads.

Have you read through the links from the SEP given earlier? Reconciling omniscience and free will is a well-explored topic. I don't mean to be dismissive, but at the moment you appear to simply be taking the position that omniscience and free will are incompatible. Is that all you're really wanting to talk about here?

sigmund · 4th December 2009, 06:22 PM

The way I've heard it explained it that it that life is like a courtship. Ultimately you decide if you want to enter the relationship or not, and it will not be pushed on you if you don't want it. Kind of the whole 'wipe the dust off your feet and move on with your own life' thing if no-one was interested in hearing what was being said - completely opposite then to what the religious right are pushing as religion now.

Darth Rotor · 5th December 2009, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Why are we alive?

religious answer:
1. To find God
2. To learn how to love.

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Why are we alive?

Cosmic debris answer:
1. Titties and beer.
2. There is nothing else worth living for

DR

Gawdzilla · 5th December 2009, 12:08 PM

Just to play the other side for a while:

Simply because "God" knows everything that has or will happen doesn't mean that "God" caused those things to happen? I know that tornadoes will strike this area every year, but I didn't cause the damage.

Okay, shoot that full of holes in case someone tries it on me.

ctamblyn · 5th December 2009, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Just to play the other side for a while:

Simply because "God" knows everything that has or will happen doesn't mean that "God" caused those things to happen? I know that tornadoes will strike this area every year, but I didn't cause the damage.

Okay, shoot that full of holes in case someone tries it on me.

I am a simpleton in the ways of philosophy, but to me it seems that it would have been possible for this omnipotent being to create a world without tornadoes. More generally, could it not have created a world in which there is no suffering, yet we still have free will? Or are there restrictions on God's powers? Or does it not care about human matters?
ETA: I don't think there is necessarily a contradiction between free will, whatever that means, and omniscience. To me it seems that there could be a contradiction if we say that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

Gawdzilla · 5th December 2009, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by ctamblyn

I am a simpleton in the ways of philosophy, but to me it seems that it would have been possible for this omnipotent being to create a world without tornadoes. More generally, could it not have created a world in which there is no suffering, yet we still have free will? Or are there restrictions on God's powers? Or does it not care about human matters?

"God has a plan for us all" would be the believer's answer to your issue. That's a convenient "out" for that one.

ctamblyn · 5th December 2009, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

"God has a plan for us all" would be the believer's answer to your issue. That's a convenient "out" for that one.

In which case I might resort to the skeptic's "out" - where's the evidence?

Eyeron · 5th December 2009, 02:37 PM

We are alive because God is like the Ori. He needs those souls.

aviolet4u · 5th December 2009, 02:46 PM

I've read about it this way. All of us have free will, but of course God can see from beginning to end because time doesn't exist in the spirit realms like it does here?

Think of it like watching a movie. It already has been filmed but I still watch it not expecting what is going to happen next with each scene. Just observing it all.

Gawdzilla · 5th December 2009, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by ctamblyn

In which case I might resort to the skeptic's "out" - where's the evidence?

That's the one I use, and I get back, "Divine revelation." Whatever the expletive I've deleted that means.

Gawdzilla · 5th December 2009, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by aviolet4u

I've read about it this way. All of us have free will, but of course God can see from beginning to end because time doesn't exist in the spirit realms like it does here?

Think of it like watching a movie. It already has been filmed but I still watch it not expecting what is going to happen next with each scene. Just observing it all.

So then, the future is fixed according to that thought? So nothing we can do will change it? Even prayer? I like the way this is going.

AvalonXQ · 5th December 2009, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

So then, the future is fixed according to that thought?

What do you mean by "the future is fixed"? Do you mean, "nothing we can do will change the future"? If so, change it from what?
All that we know about the future is that it will occur, and that it will involve the choices we make. If God knows the future, all that tells us is that God knows what decisions we will make, and that the future, including our choices and decisions, has a definite outcome.
The fact that someone somewhere knows what choice I am going to make does not imply that I don't actually make those choices. "Somebody knows what the future will be" seems to me to be the practical equivalent of "the future depends on the choices we make, and those choices will eventually create one definite outcome".

Gawdzilla · 5th December 2009, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

What do you mean by "the future is fixed"? Do you mean, "nothing we can do will change the future"? If so, change it from what?
All that we know about the future is that it will occur, and that it will involve the choices we make. If God knows the future, all that tells us is that God knows what decisions we will make, and that the future, including our choices and decisions, has a definite outcome.
The fact that someone somewhere knows what choice I am going to make does not imply that I don't actually make those choices. "Somebody knows what the future will be" seems to me to be the practical equivalent of "the future depends on the choices we make, and those choices will eventually create one definite outcome".

The person I quoted (aviolet4u) said, "Think of it like watching a movie. It already has been filmed but I still watch it not expecting what is going to happen next with each scene. Just observing it all."

So the "movie" has already been "filmed". I understand that to mean "the future is set". Am I wrong, aviolet4u?

AvalonXQ · 5th December 2009, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

The person I quoted (aviolet4u) said, "Think of it like watching a movie. It already has been filmed but I still watch it not expecting what is going to happen next with each scene. Just observing it all."

So the "movie" has already been "filmed". I understand that to mean "the future is set".

Right, but what does that mean? You say "the future is set", and that means, what? How the reality that we experience different than if the future isn't set?

Gawdzilla · 5th December 2009, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Right, but what does that mean? You say "the future is set", and that means, what? How the reality that we experience different than if the future isn't set?

You familiar with "predestination"? The idea that everything is already "written" and not subject to change?

Eyeron · 5th December 2009, 04:42 PM

And predestination also defeats free will.

Gawdzilla · 5th December 2009, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Eyeron

And predestination also defeats free will.

Ed Zachery! So if everything you are ever going to do is already set, why even try? It's going to happen regardless and there's bleep all you can do about it. "God has a plan for us all." Cool! "I'm supposed to take your wallet now. Don't blame me, goddidit."

And people say atheists are immoral.

KingMerv00 · 5th December 2009, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Because obeying God by choice is more valuable to God than simply obeying God by necessity...

*Unfairly assumes you believe in hell*

You don't consider avoiding hell an "act of necessity"?

aviolet4u · 6th December 2009, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

The person I quoted (aviolet4u) said, "Think of it like watching a movie. It already has been filmed but I still watch it not expecting what is going to happen next with each scene. Just observing it all."

So the "movie" has already been "filmed". I understand that to mean "the future is set". Am I wrong, aviolet4u?

I'm just throwing a concept out there, I don't hold any particularly strong beliefs. Your future can go any which way but it can already be observed. It doesn't have to be set in stone for us in particular because our earthly experience is so different from that of the spiritual one. You can choose path A, B, or C...no great destined plans.

Gawdzilla · 6th December 2009, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by aviolet4u

I'm just throwing a concept out there, I don't hold any particularly strong beliefs. Your future can go any which way but it can already be observed. It doesn't have to be set in stone for us in particular because our earthly experience is so different from that of the spiritual one. You can choose path A, B, or C...no great destined plans.

"it can already be observed"

Gonna need some help with that.

aviolet4u · 6th December 2009, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

"it can already be observed"

Gonna need some help with that.

The religious or spiritualists believe that all the acts can be observed whether it is God who is the observer or every act is written in the Akashic records

"These records are described to contain all knowledge of human experience and the history of the cosmos. They are metaphorically described as a library and other analogues commonly found in discourse on the subject include a "universal computer" and the "Mind of God". Descriptions of the records assert that they are constantly updated and that they can be accessed through astral projection. The concept originated in the theosophical movements of the 19th century, and remains prevalent in New Age discourse"

Many religious/spiritual people want to believe that everything needs to be observed or to have a permanent place so we can look back on it later. Maybe its to put the ego at ease- for after this life is said and done it wasn't all in vain.

devnull · 7th December 2009, 12:41 AM

hang on - which god?

AvalonXQ · 7th December 2009, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by devnull

hang on - which god?

No, not the Witch God.

Matt the Poet · 7th December 2009, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

The answers already given here cover the basic response. There is value to the process by which human beings exercise their free will to decide to obey God. Because obeying God by choice is more valuable to God than simply obeying God by necessity, the window of free will choice offered to humans by our lives in the material world is of value to God.

What is it, exactly, that God values about this obedience?

AvalonXQ · 7th December 2009, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Matt the Poet

What is it, exactly, that God values about this obedience?

I'm not sure that that's made clear in Scripture.
But it certainly makes intuitive sense that He would. After all, we do. We greatly prefer people deciding to act of their own choice rather than having to force them.

Beerina · 7th December 2009, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by ceo_esq

It's not clear that an omniscient god, as such, would violate free will. The Stanford and IEP encyclopedia articles on the topic are useful background:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/foreknow.htm
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fr...foreknowledge/

Hemming and hawing. If you can predict with certainty, as opposed to just statistically, then it's definitely deterministic.

Also, God "choosing" to refuse to predict is irrelevant to whether it's deterministic or not.

Glockjaw · 7th December 2009, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I'm not sure that that's made clear in Scripture.
But it certainly makes intuitive sense that He would. After all, we do. We greatly prefer people deciding to act of their own choice rather than having to force them.

It makes sense to you that a divine being would pick and choose some of his creations over others to love because they willingly acknowledge that he is better than them?

Sounds more like a human to me. And even though I don't believe in absolute moral sense, it is clear that an all-loving being would not pick and choose who is better than others by which ones surrender their individuality.

Gawdzilla · 7th December 2009, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by aviolet4u

The religious or spiritualists believe that all the acts can be observed whether it is God who is the observer or every act is written in the Akashic records

"These records are described to contain all knowledge of human experience and the history of the cosmos. They are metaphorically described as a library and other analogues commonly found in discourse on the subject include a "universal computer" and the "Mind of God". Descriptions of the records assert that they are constantly updated and that they can be accessed through astral projection. The concept originated in the theosophical movements of the 19th century, and remains prevalent in New Age discourse"

Many religious/spiritual people want to believe that everything needs to be observed or to have a permanent place so we can look back on it later. Maybe its to put the ego at ease- for after this life is said and done it wasn't all in vain.

So are you saying YOU can observe the future?

Matt the Poet · 7th December 2009, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I'm not sure that that's made clear in Scripture.
But it certainly makes intuitive sense that He would. After all, we do. We greatly prefer people deciding to act of their own choice rather than having to force them.

Our need for validation stems from our limitations – we worry that we’re not loved or understood, that our efforts go unnoticed, that others think badly of us etc…

What does God lack that can only be fulfilled by our obedience?

4th April 2008, 03:49 AM	#1
MarkCorrigan Winter is Coming Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middle of nowhere, UK. Posts: 7,118	A question for the religious This has, at some point, probably been asked before, but I did a search and couldn't find it on the first couple of pages, so here goes. I will make a number of assumptions in order to frame the question. If any of my assumptions are incorrect, please say so, and describe why they are incorrect. To those who are theists and believe in heaven. Why are we alive? Assuming that god exists and is omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and that he created (if not directly then via a system) everyone, correct? Since he is omniscient he knew all the details of our lives before he created any of us. Therefore he would KNOW that I would be an atheist. Now, assuming one can only get to heaven by belief, this means I am going to hell. Therefore god knew before time that I would be going to hell. If he is omnibenevolent he would want me to go to heaven, yes? Therefore why did he not just send me, and by extension all of us, directly to heaven? Why bother wasting our time with life, which in a number of cases leads us away from him, and in all cases leads to suffering, much of which around the world is accute? Why doesn't he just create us in heaven? He can (omnipotent), he knows some will fail, and therefore not get into heaven (omniscient) and he loves us all and wants us to get to heaven (omnibenevolent) and yet we are born into this world. Unless one takes the view that this world IS heaven, why does god mess us around so much?
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz Now I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet. If I should die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake.

4th April 2008, 04:22 AM	#3
MarkCorrigan Winter is Coming Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middle of nowhere, UK. Posts: 7,118	Originally Posted by MG1962 Free will But that doesn't work, because an omniscient god violates free will. If god is omniscient he knows exactly what choices you make, and yet he created you anyway. Therefore while you technically have the ability to choose your action, he already knows what you will choose. How is a predetermined event free will?
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz Now I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet. If I should die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake.

4th April 2008, 02:41 PM	#4
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan But that doesn't work, because an omniscient god violates free will. It's not clear that an omniscient god, as such, would violate free will. The Stanford and IEP encyclopedia articles on the topic are useful background: http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/foreknow.htm http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fr...foreknowledge/
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Last edited by ceo_esq; 4th April 2008 at 02:41 PM.

8th April 2008, 12:14 AM	#7
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Originally Posted by ceo_esq It's not clear that an omniscient god, as such, would violate free will. The Stanford and IEP encyclopedia articles on the topic are useful background: http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/foreknow.htm http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fr...foreknowledge/ Of course it all depends on what you mean by free will. Augustinian and Molinist (middle way) free will doctrines depend on free will being strictly deterministic. For many people these days a free will that is deterministic is a contradiction.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

8th April 2008, 12:59 PM	#9
Autolite Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,489	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan But that doesn't work, because an omniscient god violates free will. Oh my! A religious contradiction. Someone stop the presses!!!
	__________________ "When they come around sweet talkin', don't listen" - Willie Stark

4th April 2008, 04:16 AM	#2
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Free will

7th April 2008, 01:38 AM	#5
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan But that doesn't work, because an omniscient god violates free will. If god is omniscient he knows exactly what choices you make, and yet he created you anyway. Therefore while you technically have the ability to choose your action, he already knows what you will choose. How is a predetermined event free will? But does he tell you what path you are going to take

7th April 2008, 02:28 AM	#6
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	Here's a possible approach: Heaven/hell is not the purpose, merely a consequence. The relationship between God and person/humanity itself is the goal, and that relationship is only manifest in a world where a person is free to recognize and develop it.

8th April 2008, 01:29 AM	#8
Greediguts Atheist for Jesus Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 633	Originally Posted by MG1962 But does he tell you what path you are going to take But the question is doesn't he KNOW which path you are going to take? How can you "give free will" ?? Did Adam and Eve have "free will" before eating from the tree of knowledge?? Is there "free will" in Heaven? Or Hell? Or is that removed once we "cross over"? MarkCorrigan, don't know if you've read these books but Michael Shermer covers free will vs. determinism in Chapter 4 of "The Science of Good and Evil". Daniel Dennett also wrote the book "Elbow Room: The Varieties of Free Will Worth Wanting". Both worth reading.

4th December 2009, 06:38 AM	#10
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	The answers already given here cover the basic response. There is value to the process by which human beings exercise their free will to decide to obey God. Because obeying God by choice is more valuable to God than simply obeying God by necessity, the window of free will choice offered to humans by our lives in the material world is of value to God.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

4th December 2009, 06:44 AM	#11
MarkCorrigan Winter is Coming Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middle of nowhere, UK. Posts: 7,118	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ The answers already given here cover the basic response. There is value to the process by which human beings exercise their free will to decide to obey God. Because obeying God by choice is more valuable to God than simply obeying God by necessity, the window of free will choice offered to humans by our lives in the material world is of value to God. What now? That wasn't what was asked at all, and forgive me, is rather hard to comprehend. I THINK you're saying that God would rather you follow his rules by your own free will. Ok, fair enough, but if god knows everything, including the future, how can free will exist? If I flip a coin to make a decision, god already knows which side it will land on. There isn't any luck involved, there's no real choice because my path was laid down for me. It doesn't matter what choices I assigned to heads and tails, it cannot come up as anything other than heads.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz Now I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet. If I should die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake.

4th December 2009, 06:47 AM	#12
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan What now? That wasn't what was asked at all, and forgive me, is rather hard to comprehend. I THINK you're saying that God would rather you follow his rules by your own free will. Ok, fair enough, but if god knows everything, including the future, how can free will exist? If I flip a coin to make a decision, god already knows which side it will land on. There isn't any luck involved, there's no real choice because my path was laid down for me. It doesn't matter what choices I assigned to heads and tails, it cannot come up as anything other than heads. Have you read through the links from the SEP given earlier? Reconciling omniscience and free will is a well-explored topic. I don't mean to be dismissive, but at the moment you appear to simply be taking the position that omniscience and free will are incompatible. Is that all you're really wanting to talk about here?
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

4th December 2009, 06:22 PM	#13
sigmund Scholar Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 51	The way I've heard it explained it that it that life is like a courtship. Ultimately you decide if you want to enter the relationship or not, and it will not be pushed on you if you don't want it. Kind of the whole 'wipe the dust off your feet and move on with your own life' thing if no-one was interested in hearing what was being said - completely opposite then to what the religious right are pushing as religion now.

5th December 2009, 09:56 AM	#14
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,257	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan Why are we alive? religious answer: 1. To find God 2. To learn how to love. Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan Why are we alive? Cosmic debris answer: 1. Titties and beer. 2. There is nothing else worth living for DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

5th December 2009, 12:08 PM	#15
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,477	Just to play the other side for a while: Simply because "God" knows everything that has or will happen doesn't mean that "God" caused those things to happen? I know that tornadoes will strike this area every year, but I didn't cause the damage. Okay, shoot that full of holes in case someone tries it on me.

5th December 2009, 02:24 PM	#16
ctamblyn Deuteranomalous Individual Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 989	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Just to play the other side for a while: Simply because "God" knows everything that has or will happen doesn't mean that "God" caused those things to happen? I know that tornadoes will strike this area every year, but I didn't cause the damage. Okay, shoot that full of holes in case someone tries it on me. I am a simpleton in the ways of philosophy, but to me it seems that it would have been possible for this omnipotent being to create a world without tornadoes. More generally, could it not have created a world in which there is no suffering, yet we still have free will? Or are there restrictions on God's powers? Or does it not care about human matters? ETA: I don't think there is necessarily a contradiction between free will, whatever that means, and omniscience. To me it seems that there could be a contradiction if we say that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
	Last edited by ctamblyn; 5th December 2009 at 02:32 PM.

5th December 2009, 02:32 PM	#17
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,477	Originally Posted by ctamblyn I am a simpleton in the ways of philosophy, but to me it seems that it would have been possible for this omnipotent being to create a world without tornadoes. More generally, could it not have created a world in which there is no suffering, yet we still have free will? Or are there restrictions on God's powers? Or does it not care about human matters? "God has a plan for us all" would be the believer's answer to your issue. That's a convenient "out" for that one.

5th December 2009, 02:36 PM	#18
ctamblyn Deuteranomalous Individual Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 989	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla "God has a plan for us all" would be the believer's answer to your issue. That's a convenient "out" for that one. In which case I might resort to the skeptic's "out" - where's the evidence?

5th December 2009, 02:37 PM	#19
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774	We are alive because God is like the Ori. He needs those souls.
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774

5th December 2009, 02:46 PM	#20
aviolet4u Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 372	I've read about it this way. All of us have free will, but of course God can see from beginning to end because time doesn't exist in the spirit realms like it does here? Think of it like watching a movie. It already has been filmed but I still watch it not expecting what is going to happen next with each scene. Just observing it all.

5th December 2009, 03:06 PM	#21
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,477	Originally Posted by ctamblyn In which case I might resort to the skeptic's "out" - where's the evidence? That's the one I use, and I get back, "Divine revelation." Whatever the expletive I've deleted that means.

5th December 2009, 03:08 PM	#22
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,477	Originally Posted by aviolet4u I've read about it this way. All of us have free will, but of course God can see from beginning to end because time doesn't exist in the spirit realms like it does here? Think of it like watching a movie. It already has been filmed but I still watch it not expecting what is going to happen next with each scene. Just observing it all. So then, the future is fixed according to that thought? So nothing we can do will change it? Even prayer? I like the way this is going.

5th December 2009, 03:33 PM	#23
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla So then, the future is fixed according to that thought? What do you mean by "the future is fixed"? Do you mean, "nothing we can do will change the future"? If so, change it from what? All that we know about the future is that it will occur, and that it will involve the choices we make. If God knows the future, all that tells us is that God knows what decisions we will make, and that the future, including our choices and decisions, has a definite outcome. The fact that someone somewhere knows what choice I am going to make does not imply that I don't actually make those choices. "Somebody knows what the future will be" seems to me to be the practical equivalent of "the future depends on the choices we make, and those choices will eventually create one definite outcome".
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

5th December 2009, 04:26 PM	#24
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,477	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ What do you mean by "the future is fixed"? Do you mean, "nothing we can do will change the future"? If so, change it from what? All that we know about the future is that it will occur, and that it will involve the choices we make. If God knows the future, all that tells us is that God knows what decisions we will make, and that the future, including our choices and decisions, has a definite outcome. The fact that someone somewhere knows what choice I am going to make does not imply that I don't actually make those choices. "Somebody knows what the future will be" seems to me to be the practical equivalent of "the future depends on the choices we make, and those choices will eventually create one definite outcome". The person I quoted (aviolet4u) said, "Think of it like watching a movie. It already has been filmed but I still watch it not expecting what is going to happen next with each scene. Just observing it all." So the "movie" has already been "filmed". I understand that to mean "the future is set". Am I wrong, aviolet4u?

5th December 2009, 04:32 PM	#25
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla The person I quoted (aviolet4u) said, "Think of it like watching a movie. It already has been filmed but I still watch it not expecting what is going to happen next with each scene. Just observing it all." So the "movie" has already been "filmed". I understand that to mean "the future is set". Right, but what does that mean? You say "the future is set", and that means, what? How the reality that we experience different than if the future isn't set?
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

5th December 2009, 04:33 PM	#26
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,477	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Right, but what does that mean? You say "the future is set", and that means, what? How the reality that we experience different than if the future isn't set? You familiar with "predestination"? The idea that everything is already "written" and not subject to change?

5th December 2009, 04:42 PM	#27
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774	And predestination also defeats free will.
Eyeron Guest Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,774

5th December 2009, 04:54 PM	#28
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,477	Originally Posted by Eyeron And predestination also defeats free will. Ed Zachery! So if everything you are ever going to do is already set, why even try? It's going to happen regardless and there's bleep all you can do about it. "God has a plan for us all." Cool! "I'm supposed to take your wallet now. Don't blame me, goddidit." And people say atheists are immoral.

5th December 2009, 10:07 PM	#29
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Because obeying God by choice is more valuable to God than simply obeying God by necessity... Unfairly assumes you believe in hell You don't consider avoiding hell an "act of necessity"?
	__________________ If man came from dust, why is there still dust?

6th December 2009, 12:00 AM	#30
aviolet4u Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 372	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla The person I quoted (aviolet4u) said, "Think of it like watching a movie. It already has been filmed but I still watch it not expecting what is going to happen next with each scene. Just observing it all." So the "movie" has already been "filmed". I understand that to mean "the future is set". Am I wrong, aviolet4u? I'm just throwing a concept out there, I don't hold any particularly strong beliefs. Your future can go any which way but it can already be observed. It doesn't have to be set in stone for us in particular because our earthly experience is so different from that of the spiritual one. You can choose path A, B, or C...no great destined plans.

6th December 2009, 04:55 AM	#31
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,477	Originally Posted by aviolet4u I'm just throwing a concept out there, I don't hold any particularly strong beliefs. Your future can go any which way but it can already be observed. It doesn't have to be set in stone for us in particular because our earthly experience is so different from that of the spiritual one. You can choose path A, B, or C...no great destined plans. "it can already be observed" Gonna need some help with that.

6th December 2009, 08:31 PM	#32
aviolet4u Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 372	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla "it can already be observed" Gonna need some help with that. The religious or spiritualists believe that all the acts can be observed whether it is God who is the observer or every act is written in the Akashic records "These records are described to contain all knowledge of human experience and the history of the cosmos. They are metaphorically described as a library and other analogues commonly found in discourse on the subject include a "universal computer" and the "Mind of God". Descriptions of the records assert that they are constantly updated and that they can be accessed through astral projection. The concept originated in the theosophical movements of the 19th century, and remains prevalent in New Age discourse" Many religious/spiritual people want to believe that everything needs to be observed or to have a permanent place so we can look back on it later. Maybe its to put the ego at ease- for after this life is said and done it wasn't all in vain.

7th December 2009, 12:41 AM	#33
devnull Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 4,532	hang on - which god?
	__________________ no, i don't think i need to read naturalistic literature more accurately, to be convinced its true. - Gibhor

7th December 2009, 07:41 AM	#34
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by devnull hang on - which god? No, not the Witch God.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

7th December 2009, 07:48 AM	#35
Matt the Poet Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 436	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ The answers already given here cover the basic response. There is value to the process by which human beings exercise their free will to decide to obey God. Because obeying God by choice is more valuable to God than simply obeying God by necessity, the window of free will choice offered to humans by our lives in the material world is of value to God. What is it, exactly, that God values about this obedience?