Skill or tricks????

[treble_head]

Asking fellow magicians... What is your thing? Do you use double-lifts and false-shuffles, or do you use packets?

There is something to be said for packet magicians, as it is immediate and satisfying, but I'm having trouble with people asking to see the deck. I know there's a middle ground, but I'd like to define myself as a "normal deck" magician.

The "normal deck" idea has many good points as well. I like to have people look at the cards after the fact, since they can look at the cards after the trick is done, but some "trick" packets work out so well.

Mostly working out what works for you.

[AgeGap]

I have a few trick decks but for the most part they look poor quality. It is more impressive to do tricks with a borrowed deck IMO. It is though, hard to break the link in my mind at least, between a trick being extremely technical and visually impressive.

[Garrette]

It is a mistake to separate packet tricks from the need for skills. There are exactly zero packet tricks that require zero skills; they may require a different set of skills, but they still require them.

The question of whether or not packet tricks are 'better' than non-packet tricks is entirely dependent on both the situation and the performer. Attempts to provide a universal answer are bound to fall flat.

But, if you can have only one quality, then presentational skills are it. Linked with that is the ability to control your audience. Then technical skills.

[Vater_Araignee]

In my opinion, when using packet tricks it become imperative that you master "normal deck" maneuvers for the simple fact that they will help you eliminate evidence.
Learning deck switches dose not hurt either.
I do a persistent card routine that I perform for magicians only where my tells disappear in four of five moves, the lay person just wouldn't be any more stunned. I have to switch the deck so they don't understand how I went from using nearly perfected slights (a slight can never be perfect or we would call it "nothing of hand") to using zero.

[Senex]

I'm out of practice doing card tricks and need a plate falling off a table for misdirection to get away with a pass -- but when I was young I used to use a stripper deck. You could look like Dai Vernon doing a four ace trick with a stripper deck and it can withstand cursory audience examination. I bought seven identical decks of bicycle cards at a dollar store about three years ago with the intend to mock a few of them up someday. They are still sitting dusty and unopened on my shelf mocking my laziness. I might just borrow a carpenter's plain and strip one up while it's on my mind.

[NoZed Avenger]

I like sleights -- learning them is part of the fun -- but I am strictly on the practical side of the debate: "whatever works (well)."

[JPK]

The seemless application of both gimmicked and ungimmicked can be very magical.
JPK

[treble_head]

thanks for the input. I'm kinda down tonight, because I showed a little girl "that's impossible" tonight, and 20 minutes later, the mother came to me and told me that her daughter wants to learn how to do that. Awesome! She asked for my manager's name, so she could say nice things about me. Whatever!

An hour later, I got called into THE office to get bitched out for doing magic tricks, when I was supposed to be working. I showed a little girl wonder and amazement, and pleased a customer, and I'm to blame for a 1 minute magic trick? F that. Either I'm there to pressure people into getting a charge card, or I'm there to satisfy customers. I know what side I'm going to continue with.

F Them. Fire me. I'd rather please people than screw them with a smile on my face.

[fredcarr]

James Swain discusses this in his book "Don't Blink." You have to be willing to hand out the cards if they ask to see them. There are no exceptions to this rule.

About one out of five male audience members knows of the existence of stripper decks and will check the deck that I am using for this.

I don't care to use borrowed or old decks and almost always use a brand new deck. If the issue of trick decks come up I insist that the person who brought it up keep the deck that I was using. I hope that this shuts the door on that possible solution. (At a buck a deck it really doesn't cost much to do this.)

I weave various patter lines in different effects dispelling the idea of trick decks as well.

As Swain discusses in his next book "21st Century Card Magic" there is no substitute for skill. No one can buy that secret online.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by fredcarr

James Swain discusses this in his book "Don't Blink." You have to be willing to hand out the cards if they ask to see them. There are no exceptions to this rule.

There are always exceptions to any rule. When you perform you are in charge. Move to another card trick quickly.

Quote:

About one out of five male audience members knows of the existence of stripper decks and will check the deck that I am using for this.

Why do you state the male demographic knowledge and not the female?

Quote:

I don't care to use borrowed or old decks and almost always use a brand new deck. If the issue of trick decks come up I insist that the person who brought it up keep the deck that I was using. I hope that this shuts the door on that possible solution. (At a buck a deck it really doesn't cost much to do this.)

I weave various patter lines in different effects dispelling the idea of trick decks as well.

As Swain discusses in his next book "21st Century Card Magic" there is no substitute for skill. No one can buy that secret online.

I don't believe that is true. I am a clumsy magician yet I can perform miracles. Let's take my reason for buying duplicate decks. It's possible you can challenge someone to put their finger in a riffled deck and note the card they selected and toss the deck at a window and the selected card is stuck to the back of the window. The trick didn't take any physical skill at all, a child could do it, yet it might be more remembered than someone who can make backhanded flourishes at a moments notice. It's how you define skill.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by treble_head

thanks for the input. I'm kinda down tonight, because I showed a little girl "that's impossible" tonight, and 20 minutes later, the mother came to me and told me that her daughter wants to learn how to do that. Awesome! She asked for my manager's name, so she could say nice things about me. Whatever!

An hour later, I got called into THE office to get bitched out for doing magic tricks, when I was supposed to be working. I showed a little girl wonder and amazement, and pleased a customer, and I'm to blame for a 1 minute magic trick? F that. Either I'm there to pressure people into getting a charge card, or I'm there to satisfy customers. I know what side I'm going to continue with.

F Them. Fire me. I'd rather please people than screw them with a smile on my face.

Conventional wisdom states the ability to perform closeup magic is nothing but an asset in sales. Teaching a little girl to do a magic trick might be a step below putting a pen through your business card and removing the card unharmed but it can't hurt. For a couple months in my high school life I was the most recent hire at a mall movie theatre and I ripped tickets at the far end of the theatre. Many people needed to witness my sponge ball tricks or color changing knives if they wanted entrance to their movie. I was relentless and no one ever complained. I am currently trying to sell ellusionist.com my torn and restored movie ticket trick I perfected at the theatre.

I also became a school teacher at one point in my life and did one ahead psychic tests. I've become fearless with my methods.

If the company you work for has such precise sales methods that doing a quick magic trick is out of the question means you work for a company that sells woo. Real sales involves selling yourself a bit -- that may include a magic trick at this point in your in your life, it did in mine at one point. The economy will never be so bad you have to sell woo. Sell something you can be proud of.

[tkingdoll]

I have a pretty cool stripper deck that's also marked. If the victim is getting suspicious, you can just switch methods. I get a lot of tricks out of the same deck and it keeps 'em guessing. But I have some backup tricks with a regular deck, too.

Then again, I'm the worst kind of hobbyist. I go with whatever makes me look good without actually practicing much.

[treble_head]

Originally Posted by fredcarr

As Swain discusses in his next book "21st Century Card Magic" there is no substitute for skill. No one can buy that secret online.

Dunno. I think there is a middle ground. I have a number of self-working, "no-skill" tricks that do involve packets where you can hand the cards to the "trick-ee" with no repercussions.

One of my favorites right now is Rob Stiff's Traffic Light cards. (I completely eschew the instructions, as the patter is very obvious, in my opinion). It's one you can only do once, and is best for kids, (and women, for some reason that I can't understand), but is great for getting people into what you're doing. A good opener, and invovles only the memory of what card is face up and which is face down.

That was the card trick that got me in trouble at work, but a couple of other managers liked it tonight, so that might blow over.

"Mirror Image" is another great trick that I use for the simple fact that it practically begs the mark to see the other cards, and you can show them with no problem, and in fact, becomes part of the illusion.

[Vater_Araignee]

Originally Posted by Senex

There are always exceptions to any rule. When you perform you are in charge. Move to another card trick quickly.

Also very true.

Originally Posted by Senex

Why do you state the male demographic knowledge and not the female?

Because studies do not typically involve women. Do you know the ratio of Male VS. Female magicians? Assistants don't count in the studies.
Professional to armature, 105 males to 1 female according to NPR with a 2.1% margin of error. I'm also positive that if you contact I.S.O.M. and ask them about their membership ratios it will be even more drastic.
The theory is that men typically gain attention by saying "Look what I can do." and women typically gain attention by saying "Look at me."
The numbers are changing as society keeps developing a more shall we say "androgynous mentality" but the fact is that statistics usually are not taken on numbers so small as to be considered inconsequential.
I'm my personal experience most women think a stripper deck is offensive and most men want to take them to the bathroom.

[magicflute]

There is no substitute for skill. Period! I have used trick decks, but every once in a while someone asks you to do the trick that can only be done with the trick deck, then you're up the creek! Since most of the magic I do is with objects found around and my own or borrowed cards, I have given up trick cards. If I like a trick card routine, then I try to find a way that can be done with regular cards. If you have a good arsenal of card skills you can often come close.

[Cain]

A basic observation from Allan Ackerman in the introduction of Las Vegas Kardma: "When you have an ungaffed method for an effect, you wind up performing it a lot more." I keep searching this book for the exact wording of his "inversely proportional" maxim but cannot find it.

Personally, I only use a regular pack of cards, no duplicates or strangers. I do use a memorized stack, so I am understandably reluctant to hand the cards out for shuffling. I give the cards plenty of false shuffles (overhand and riffle). I think Swain's advice (as reported) is misguided. If somebody insists on handling the cards, examining them, mixing them, then I try to defuse the situation with an "in a minute/take it easy/this guy" type comment, which highlights the fact this one person is confrontational and I am not. This sort of thing is rare though. I'm not sure if it's because my audience has subtly changed in the last few years, or if I project more confidence or what, but it's not the sort of issue I once thought it was five years ago.

I think it's important to be compliant, but not too-willing to give into spectator demands. Al Franken recalls an old sketch on Saturday Night Live where Jimmy Carter mutates into a huge beast. A reporter asks the White House spokesperson if it's true the President is now over 100 feet tall and devastating the city. The spokesperson indignantly answers "That's ridiculous! The president is not over 100 feet tall!" Then the reporter revises the question, "Well, is it true he's over 90 feet tall?" The spokesperson says, "No further questions." This goes to basic spectator management.

After a couple years in magic I realized that I loved cards far more than anything else. A regular deck allows for so many possibilities. I grew up without an allowance, and my "serious" years of study, as an undergrad and graduate student, were marked by sharp poverty. My absurd cheapness is probably what attracted me to card magic in the first place: the sleight-to-trick ratio is unbeatable. If somebody openly speculates the cards are "sensitive to heat" or whatever, then I will threaten to give them away by the end of the performance. I have only given them away once, and mostly because I was going to retire the pack anyway.

Anyway, initially I looked at impromptu stuff only, particularly effects that did not require the use of a table. Once you get a basic anytime, anywhere, any deck repertoire, then you're free to pursue setups/elaborate stacks because there's material to fall back on. Your cool indifference to the futility of spectator demands is genuine, not forced. It's true that there is no substitute for sleight-of-hand, and the neat thing about establishing undeniable skill is that people are naturally inclined to extrapolate, attributing abilities neither you nor anyone else actually possesses.

[tkingdoll]

I bought a couple of forcing decks for a photo recently, and discovered how interesting they can be. Because I only do tricks for a small group of people (immediate family), they are used to me using a mixed deck, and probably don't even know forcing decks exist, so for a whole day I got away with some very silly magic. And later that day a cousin was visiting and my family said "oh, you should get Tracy to show you a card trick". For some reason, that prompted him to ask my what my favourite card is, and without a pause I said "probably the King of Hearts because my name is King and I love to love", then took what looked like a brand new deck from the shelf, shuffled it, offered him his free choice of the spread, and sat back smugly when he chose the KH

Hee hee!

[rebecca]

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

Then again, I'm the worst kind of hobbyist. I go with whatever makes me look good without actually practicing much.

I have to correct you on this point. The worst kind of hobbyist is the one who thinks he's a working magician as opposed to a hobbyist, and takes himself far, far too seriously as a result. That used to annoy me so badly that it still warms my cockles when someone openly admits they just enjoy playing around with magic tricks.

[tkingdoll]

Originally Posted by rebecca

I have to correct you on this point. The worst kind of hobbyist is the one who thinks he's a working magician as opposed to a hobbyist, and takes himself far, far too seriously as a result. That used to annoy me so badly that it still warms my cockles when someone openly admits they just enjoy playing around with magic tricks.

It'd freeze your cockles if you actually saw me do a trick. I have a charming inept bumbling style that is the result of me being charmingly inept and bumbling. But my mom is always impressed, and isn't that what really matters?

Don't ever watch me juggle though.

[rebecca]

Oh, in answer to the OP, I mostly stuck with regular decks unless the situation calls for extra fakery.

[rebecca]

Originally Posted by tkingdoll

It'd freeze your cockles if you actually saw me do a trick. I have a charming inept bumbling style that is the result of me being charmingly inept and bumbling. But my mom is always impressed, and isn't that what really matters?

Don't ever watch me juggle though.

Cockles are like vodka. Very difficult to freeze.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally Posted by rebecca

Cockles are like vodka. Very difficult to freeze.

You never met a girl I knew in college.

[Unalienable]

Originally Posted by treble_head

Asking fellow magicians... What is your thing? Do you use double-lifts and false-shuffles, or do you use packets?

Double-lifts? Of course. False-shuffles? Of course. Packet tricks? Love 'em!

Quote:

There is something to be said for packet magicians, as it is immediate and satisfying, but I'm having trouble with people asking to see the deck.

Do what every other magician does: Start off with some ungimmicked tricks, wait for somebody to examine the cards, then later swap in the ringer. I prefer to do an entire routine with normal cards then get the gaffs into play at the very end for a finale.

Also, try sifting through your normal deck to pull out the cards needed for your gimmicked packet trick. A simple way to do this is to leave the gimmicks in the box and then do some trick which requires the deck (or most of it) to go back into the box. While you are introducing the gimmicks, you are "between tricks", everybody is talking about the previous trick, and there is virtually no heat on you.

[treble_head]

Originally Posted by Unalienable

Double-lifts? Of course. False-shuffles? Of course. Packet tricks? Love 'em!



Do what every other magician does: Start off with some ungimmicked tricks, wait for somebody to examine the cards, then later swap in the ringer. I prefer to do an entire routine with normal cards then get the gaffs into play at the very end for a finale.

Also, try sifting through your normal deck to pull out the cards needed for your gimmicked packet trick. A simple way to do this is to leave the gimmicks in the box and then do some trick which requires the deck (or most of it) to go back into the box. While you are introducing the gimmicks, you are "between tricks", everybody is talking about the previous trick, and there is virtually no heat on you.

I like your way of thinking. I am already building up one or 2 decks of packets. (the magic shop I like goes with blue Bicycle decks, almost exclusively).

My plan, thusfar, is having a completely un-gaffed deck, a cyclical stacked deck and a deck of memorized stacked packets. that might work. I could either keep one deck in my jacket pocket and 2 in the same hand side in my pants, or even be careful about it.

This is giving me ideas. Thanks, all.

[fredcarr]

Quote:

Why do you state the male demographic knowledge and not the female?

Never had a female spectator bring up the subject of tapered decks.

[firecoins]

Originally Posted by treble_head

Asking fellow magicians... What is your thing? Do you use double-lifts and false-shuffles, or do you use packets?

My "thing" is to perform magic for people. The method is unimportant. If I need to sleights, I do sleights. If I need prepared materials, I ue prepared materials. Whatever give me the effect of the show I want to perform.

Quote:

There is something to be said for packet magicians, as it is immediate and satisfying, but I'm having trouble with people asking to see the deck. I know there's a middle ground, but I'd like to define myself as a "normal deck" magician.

Your defining magicians by methods? Methods mean nothing. Effect is everything. A magician by definition must fool his audience. Anything less would be uncivilized.
]

[Peter S.]

As far as I'm concerned, anything that fools and entertains my audience is fine with me. If someone were to hand me a deck of cards I could do an hour show for them, but I regularly use all sorts of gaffs and trick decks. On top of that, when I'm doing a show I'll have 4 or 5 regular decks preset for a number of routines.
As for packet tricks, there are many that are wonderful. I was just a kid when "Wild Card" first came out. The version I got, which I prefer to the normal version, has 8 blank cards "printing" themselves to match the wild card. Of course, you had to be ready to scoop up the cards fast if it looked like someone was going to make a dive for the them...That is until I got the idea to stack the cards as I was doing the trick so I could end with a flustration count. After that no one ever wanted to examine the cards; I had just showed them the front and back of every card.
For the past few years i have been using Meir Yedid's "Cardinal Cards". It's similar to "Wild Card" in some ways, but has a much more interesting plot angle. The trick also begins and ends with the fronts and backs of all of the cards apparently being shown. I have never has anyone ask to examine them.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

With cards, I normally carry a regular deck. I often open with Red Hot Mama or Color Changing Deck. These tricks do require a little extra *help* which is taken out of play at the end of the trick. Then I'll follow with tricks that require sleights and also throw in a couple "self working" tricks like Daryl's Untouched or Geoff Williams' Devastation.

Most of the coin magic I do requires gaffs. David Roth's Coins Across, Presto Chango / Standup Copper Silver / Short Hop. Roth's Hanging Coins is about the only coin trick I do regularly without gaffs.

Throw in a couple rubber bands for Crazy Man's Handcuffs or Linking Rubber Bands and that's about it.

It also depends on the situation in which I'm performing. For parties, or events where I plan routines in advance, I'll often throw in a couple packet tricks and do some card effects that are a little more elaborate and may require extra props. Card to Wallet, Card Under Drink, Paul Green's Coming Together and Lee Asher's Deuce Bag come to mind.

The more informal or impromptu the setting, the more likely I am to have a standard deck of cards and nothing else.

ETA: If I don't have a deck of cards with me, I have Tony Miller's Pocket Space in my wallet. It's a card trick that's done without having to use a deck of cards. Completely impromptu and a killer.

[RobertlewisIR]

I'm certainly no professional (moderately serious hobbyist), but I like to use a combination. I have a number of tricks that use a completely normal deck, some that are a normal, but "specially prepared" deck, and some trick decks, though I don't use the last group as much for practical reasons.

What I like to do is do a couple tricks with completely "fair" deck, then bring in whatever other cards I need. For instance, I may need to have, say, two specific cards on top. I'll pause and do something with sponges or an Alka-Seltzer or a salt shaker. Meanwhile, I put the deck in the box where the cards I need have been conveniently left behind. Sometimes, depending on the audience and the trick, I may even be so bold as to gather the cards up in plain view, from the deck (but that takes more guts than I usually have).

I keep an Invisible Deck in my pocket (in case of emergency--such as losing control of a card), but I don't usually bring it out unless I need it.

And then I've gotten pretty good at switching decks, so if there's no heat, I can bring in my prepared deck for Jay Sankey's In A Flash (because I'm obsessed with flash paper), or a forcing deck.

But my absolute, all-time, #1 favorite is the Penn & Teller Perfectly Ordinary Deck of Cards. The great thing about that is, even with P&T on the back of each card, people STILL can't figure the tricks out (unless, of course, they want to examine the cards, but I only use that deck for close friends and family who won't ask).

[firecoins]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale Piranha

Most of the coin magic I do requires gaffs. David Roth's Coins Across, Presto Chango / Standup Copper Silver / Short Hop. Roth's Hanging Coins is about the only coin trick I do regularly without gaffs.

If you can do David's Roth coins across w/ shell, than you can do one without.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Originally Posted by firecoins

If you can do David's Roth coins across w/ shell, than you can do one without.

I realize that and have used Ammar's Incredible Coins Across, and Bill Duncan's coins across from his Tubthumping notes, among others. It's just that I prefer to do Roth's Shell Coins Across. It's a convincing, well constructed routine that gets great reactions from spectators.