Eyewitness Accounts Sought for 'Hardfire'

[pomeroo]

To avoid offending people who observed Flight 175 crash into the South Tower with their own eyes, I intend to air brief comments from eyewitnesses during the upcoming shows with Ace Baker. If you want to contribute, please send me a PM. It is not necessary that you give your name. If you prefer, I will simply use audio. A few people here have commented on their experience or that of their friends. Let me hear from you.

[twinstead]

Ace is a no planer, right?

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by twinstead

Ace is a no planer, right?

Yes, Ace will attempt to prove to an expert in video-compositing that ALL of the videos showing Flight 175 crashing into the South Tower have been faked. He will never persuade any of the eyewitnesses.

[twinstead]

My my. I'm looking forward to that...

[Foolmewunz]

PM not necessary as it's no secret (I think it was on national TV that day contrary to Ace's ridiculous conjectures).

I was in our 20th floor offices at 10 Exchange Place (that building with the strobe light on the top right opposite the WFC(and formerly WTC towers). We had heard the first impact and turned around in time to see the flames shooting out of the south side, so were more-or-less all standing around in varying degrees of horror, wondering what had happened. (Explosion, small plane... etc... )

While we were watching, I recall looking at the police or news helicopters circling above and nearby at one juncture, and thinking "Gawd, one of those guys is really noisy. It was the sound of 175 coming in! As the sound got louder, the plane came in from over my right shoulder (more-or-less) and behind us. This would place it coming in over Liberty Park and/or the Statue of Liberty. (I generally say that it was coming from the statue, but that's because most people recognize that location better. Liberty Park is in Jersey, though and covers a wider swath of property, so that'd probably be more accurate.)

I am so certain of this that I've never looked at a closeup of the flight path. If I'm off by more than 700 metres in that, I'd be surprised.

The sound was distinct and loud and something I'd never heard before. Therefore I couldn't say for sure that it was the "distinct sound of a Boeing at high speed, at full throttle", as almost no one could. (Who's ever been close enough to a Boeing at 500/600 mph before that day?) However, the distinct impression at that moment and of the people around me when we discussed it was that "he" was gunning it as he dove/curved into the tower.

I had this corroborated just yesterday! A manager of a domestic US retail trucker is over here and we were talking about that day. He was on the CB with his nephew, a trucker, and at that moment, the nephew was at Exit 14B or C, in Jersey City, heading towards the Liberty Park area. "Yeah, I ought to be back in the yard in an hour or so, the traffic over here is still running...I'm just about to drop my load at..... OMG! A plane just flew over... Really Low! .... it's going toward the city.... I can't see it, but I just heard a huge boom.... something's really happening today...."


This rings very true. People who say they knew exactly what was happening, are full of it. We were all still trying to figure out what exactly had happened and hadn't really had the reports sifted through for us. The confusion and the "something's really happening" strike me as accurate as Hell. (Can't get you a direct quote from the guy... the manager's on his way back to the USA.)

[I Ratant]

Watching the skillfully edited "shopping" of the videos of that plane hitting that tower later on that very same day, it appeared to me it came close to missing altogether.
A last minute bank to the left let it just catch the edge of the tower.
A nice touch in the editing room that.
NOT!
The sumbitch flying the thing did come to nearly missing, just what happens in real life.

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

PM not necessary as it's no secret (I think it was on national TV that day contrary to Ace's ridiculous conjectures).

I was in our 20th floor offices at 10 Exchange Place (that building with the strobe light on the top right opposite the WFC(and formerly WTC towers). We had heard the first impact and turned around in time to see the flames shooting out of the south side, so were more-or-less all standing around in varying degrees of horror, wondering what had happened. (Explosion, small plane... etc... )

While we were watching, I recall looking at the police or news helicopters circling above and nearby at one juncture, and thinking "Gawd, one of those guys is really noisy. It was the sound of 175 coming in! As the sound got louder, the plane came in from over my right shoulder (more-or-less) and behind us. This would place it coming in over Liberty Park and/or the Statue of Liberty. (I generally say that it was coming from the statue, but that's because most people recognize that location better. Liberty Park is in Jersey, though and covers a wider swath of property, so that'd probably be more accurate.)

I am so certain of this that I've never looked at a closeup of the flight path. If I'm off by more than 700 metres in that, I'd be surprised.

The sound was distinct and loud and something I'd never heard before. Therefore I couldn't say for sure that it was the "distinct sound of a Boeing at high speed, at full throttle", as almost no one could. (Who's ever been close enough to a Boeing at 500/600 mph before that day?) However, the distinct impression at that moment and of the people around me when we discussed it was that "he" was gunning it as he dove/curved into the tower.

I had this corroborated just yesterday! A manager of a domestic US retail trucker is over here and we were talking about that day. He was on the CB with his nephew, a trucker, and at that moment, the nephew was at Exit 14B or C, in Jersey City, heading towards the Liberty Park area. "Yeah, I ought to be back in the yard in an hour or so, the traffic over here is still running...I'm just about to drop my load at..... OMG! A plane just flew over... Really Low! .... it's going toward the city.... I can't see it, but I just heard a huge boom.... something's really happening today...."


This rings very true. People who say they knew exactly what was happening, are full of it. We were all still trying to figure out what exactly had happened and hadn't really had the reports sifted through for us. The confusion and the "something's really happening" strike me as accurate as Hell. (Can't get you a direct quote from the guy... the manager's on his way back to the USA.)

Terrific stuff! I will try to read parts of it on the show. If you can put a few people in touch with me, I'll let them tell their stories. Remember, we're taping on Thursday, so there is some urgency.

[TC329]

Originally Posted by pomeroo

To avoid offending people who observed Flight 175 crash into the South Tower with their own eyes, I intend to air brief comments from eyewitnesses during the upcoming shows with Ace Baker. If you want to contribute, please send me a PM. It is not necessary that you give your name. If you prefer, I will simply use audio. A few people here have commented on their experience or that of their friends. Let me hear from you.

Does the "no planer" that you're debating know you're fishing for anonymous eyewitnesses on the internet to debunk him with?

LOL

[TC329]

Originally Posted by pomeroo

Terrific stuff! I will try to read parts of it on the show. If you can put a few people in touch with me, I'll let them tell their stories. Remember, we're taping on Thursday, so there is some urgency.

Keep it on topic, and civil

Posted By:chillzero

[TheRedWorm]

And speaking of fishing, TC is back! Tell me, how is this any different that what you do, aside from the cherry picking, of course.

[TC329]

I thought eyewitnesses were worthless for establishing a plane's flight path on 9/11???

[TheRedWorm]

They very well may be, but as far as weather or not the planes hit the building(s) I'd say that they can be fairly accurate in that regard.

[Drudgewire]

Originally Posted by TC329

Does the "no planer" that you're debating know you're fishing for anonymous eyewitnesses on the internet to debunk him with?

LOL

I'm sure he doesn't. No twoofers are aware of this forum.

Charlie Uniform November. What's that dance again?

[jhunter1163]

TC, talked to Wally Miller yet?

[TC329]

Originally Posted by TheRedWorm

And speaking of fishing, TC is back! Tell me, how is this any different that what you do, aside from the cherry picking, of course.

For starters because we're a little more legitimate we actually find real eyewitnesses instead of asking our friends to anonymously be one over the phone for us.

We actually consider eyewitness testimony to be extremely credible especially when corroborated multiple times over.

We definitely don't "cherry pick" if you know some witnesses who saw the plane on the South of Citgo please interview them. You know some witnesses who really saw a falcon 20 please interview them.

We're looking forward to your presentation.

[TheRedWorm]

Of all of your witnesses, how many saw the plane fly over the pentagon? Actually don't answer here. I'll bump an old thread.

[TC329]

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

TC, talked to Wally Miller yet?

ETA : Removed by me. Bit on bait.

[Par]

Originally Posted by TC329

For starters because we're a little more legitimate we actually find real eyewitnesses instead of asking our friends to anonymously be one over the phone for us... We definitely don't "cherry pick"...

Well, that’s what you say. But then again you were caught lying a week or so ago.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by TC329

Does the "no planer" that you're debating know you're fishing for anonymous eyewitnesses on the internet to debunk him with?

LOL

Actually, I think the debunking will occur when the expert in video-compositing Ron has on laughs in Ace's face.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by TC329

For starters because we're a little more legitimate we actually find real eyewitnesses instead of asking our friends to anonymously be one over the phone for us.

We actually consider eyewitness testimony to be extremely credible especially when corroborated multiple times over.

We definitely don't "cherry pick" if you know some witnesses who saw the plane on the South of Citgo please interview them. You know some witnesses who really saw a falcon 20 please interview them.

We're looking forward to your presentation.

I thought you were fixing the 11.2 G error in physics? Have you helped Rob yet.

Your own witnesses say south of CITGO, Paik and Morin, both. You should really take geometry too, Morin talks about parallel.

Are you an I off topic? He is talking about 175, and not your fantasy made up world of broken physics and non-paths from the hard evidence of witness statements who saw 77 hit the Pentagon. Like Boger. Gee, who else have you cherry picked in the orchard of hearsay fantasy world known as CIT?

[jhunter1163]

Originally Posted by TC329

ETA : Removed by me. Bit on bait.

I'll take that as a "no". But I do appreciate your restraint.

[twinstead]

TC do your comments mean that you don't believe planes hit the WTC1 and 2?

And yea, to second the sentiments Mr. 'we corroborate our witnesses', exactly how many of them saw a flyover of the Pentagon?

[I Ratant]

This "no second plane" aberration is a monstrous offense against the human intellect.
Any thing that could possibly support this foulness isn't worth noticing.

[RKOwens4]

Ron, did you ever think about calling some of the people who actually FILMED the impacts, whose video Ace Baker is alleging to have been faked? A phone call recording giving these people a chance to defend themselves would be interesting - though I imagine many aren't able to take the conspiracists seriously and may (understandably) not find the no-planers worth responding to. A video popularly attacked by the conspiracists was shot by Park Foreman. White pages has a "P Foreman" in the Bronx listing as

Edited by chillzero:

Edited to remove personal information

(no one else call and annoy him please).

Another commonly attacked person is John Del Giorno, who was the helicopter camera operator for that famous live shot of Flight 175 disappearing behind the North Tower somewhat and hitting the South Tower. There's a Jersey City, NJ listing for a John D Giorno. Not sure if this is the person, but his listing is

Edited by chillzero:

Edited to remove personal information

.

I don't know if you want to call them, but this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=L978nIT-AY4) has clips where a no-planer calls both Park Foreman and John Giorno. The caller doesn't even tell them that he's a no-planer. The two might like to be able to voice themselves on a New York show like your own. Just a suggestion.

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by TC329

Does the "no planer" that you're debating know you're fishing for anonymous eyewitnesses on the internet to debunk him with?

LOL

Can't you clowns write a sentence without attempting some sort of sleaziness? I prefer witnesses who will identify themselves, but if they choose not to, that's their business. The point I'm trying to make is that Ace can become the cleverest video trickster in the world and he still won't change the fact that a commercial airliner crashed into the South Tower. Steven Wright will debunk his amateurish efforts to pretend that all the videos of the event have been faked. I refuse to insult the intelligence of my audience by giving the impression that there's a raging controversy here. People who actually watched the plane hit the building won't be persuaded by Ace's best efforts.

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by RKOwens4

Ron, did you ever think about calling some of the people who actually FILMED the impacts, whose video Ace Baker is alleging to have been faked? A phone call recording giving these people a chance to defend themselves would be interesting - though I imagine many aren't able to take the conspiracists seriously and may (understandably) not find the no-planers worth responding to. A video popularly attacked by the conspiracists was shot by Park Foreman. White pages has a "P Foreman" in the Bronx listing as

Edited by chillzero:

Edited to remove personal information

(no one else call and annoy him please).

Another commonly attacked person is John Del Giorno, who was the helicopter camera operator for that famous live shot of Flight 175 disappearing behind the North Tower somewhat and hitting the South Tower. There's a Jersey City, NJ listing for a John D Giorno. Not sure if this is the person, but his listing is

Edited by chillzero:

Edited to remove personal information

.

I don't know if you want to call them, but this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=L978nIT-AY4) has clips where a no-planer calls both Park Foreman and John Giorno. The caller doesn't even tell them that he's a no-planer. The two might like to be able to voice themselves on a New York show like your own. Just a suggestion.

Many thanks. I'll attempt to contact them.

[pomeroo]

Edited by chillzero:

quoted post removed

.

[twinstead]

I suppose I'll just wait until somebody, anybody who was there at the Pentagon that day reports seeing a flyover.

Don't worry; It's a long story, but I have time.

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by TC329

For starters because we're a little more legitimate we actually find real eyewitnesses instead of asking our friends to anonymously be one over the phone for us.

We actually consider eyewitness testimony to be extremely credible especially when corroborated multiple times over.

We definitely don't "cherry pick" if you know some witnesses who saw the plane on the South of Citgo please interview them. You know some witnesses who really saw a falcon 20 please interview them.

We're looking forward to your presentation.

No, conspiracy liars are not "legitimate" in any respect. They are a gaggle of deranged, ineducable, America-hating jackasses promoting pernicious and baseless falsehoods. Of the hundred or so witnesses to the crash of AA Flight 77, a tiny handful describe an impossible flight path. That means--listen closely--they are wrong.

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by TC329

For starters because we're a little more legitimate we actually find real eyewitnesses instead of asking our friends to anonymously be one over the phone for us.

We actually consider eyewitness testimony to be extremely credible especially when corroborated multiple times over.

We definitely don't "cherry pick" if you know some witnesses who saw the plane on the South of Citgo please interview them. You know some witnesses who really saw a falcon 20 please interview them.

We're looking forward to your presentation.

We're looking forward to hearing one of you frauds ask your "witnesses" to resolve their mutually-exclusive memories. Are you tired of hearing this? Get used to it.

[Drudgewire]

Originally Posted by TC329

For starters because we're a little more legitimate...

*head asplodes*

[Jonnyclueless]

I think TC has a little bit of merit in the issue of anonymous witnesses. I think they will be useless in such an argument because they will just be dismissed too easily. I mean remember we're talking about people who dismiss there being real planes, so it's not very hard to imagine them dismissing anonymous witness accounts.

[Minadin]

Ron - You might try sending a PM or email to Alt+F4 - I am not sure how often she posts here anymore, but IIRC she is a New York City resident who witnessed the 2nd plane's impact firsthand.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...38#post3443738

[Jonnyclueless]

I could try to contact my sister who was hired by NYC to collect witness accounts for people as well as items from that day for a museum. I doubt I would be able to hear back from her in reasonable time to be of help though.

[nadsat]

How long after the taping before the show hit the internet Ron? Looking forward to it.

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by nadsat

How long after the taping before the show hit the internet Ron? Looking forward to it.

We usually manage to air the shows on Google within a few days. I did send a PM to Alt+F4 a while back. I haven't heard from her, but I'd sure like to.

[pomeroo]

Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless

I think TC has a little bit of merit in the issue of anonymous witnesses. I think they will be useless in such an argument because they will just be dismissed too easily. I mean remember we're talking about people who dismiss there being real planes, so it's not very hard to imagine them dismissing anonymous witness accounts.

Well, my purpose isn't to persuade Ace. Nothing imaginable could dent his delusion. I want a few witnesses to be heard, so they understand that we haven't lost our minds and we aren't trivializing a tragedy that cost thousands of lives. As I said, if Ace became the greatest video trickster in history, it wouldn't alter the fact that Flight 175 hit the South Tower.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by TC329

I thought eyewitnesses were worthless for establishing a plane's flight path on 9/11???

When they're "establishing" a flight path that is physically impossible for any real plane to follow, they are.


Feel free to try to debunk the flight paths suggested by Foolmewunz. Perhaps you might actually learn something in the process.



Not that I'm holding my breath, mind you.

[Foolmewunz]

TC,

I actually said nothing about remaining anonymous, although Ron offered it. I'm anonymous on these boards for professional reasons - CT is not my only calling in life and I post on business/cultural issues where I have insider knowledge through my position, and it would not be right to have my name associated with (and thus my company's name associated with) some of my personal opinions and ideas that I've garnered from working in the area. I'm associated in my industry with certain very large clients, and it would not be a good thing to have my political opinions on, say China Trade, associated with my professional status as their key account manager for the region.

But, I'll tell you what..... You bring your crackerjack interview crew over here and I'll show you my credentials, my place of employment on 911, and my history of working in the region around the WTC for roughly 20 years. I'll give you the names of the people who were there, and you can investi-google all you want. They're just average working-class stiffs, and I'm not asking them for permission, so any attempts you make to contact them - you're on your own. I'd imagine one or tow of them might be happy to tell you what they saw and maybe 'splain you few things, Lucy. (The former Master Sergeant might get a little peevish with you, but hey, you're a dedicated bunch, right?)

But what does it matter? We didn't see the plane, profesionally. I could have a Phd in Astrophysics and my first-hand experience is just that of some guy on the Internet. I concur with you on that. The difference, though, between this guy on the internet and the selected assortment of clipped interviews of the CIT, is that Ron's not editing my comments. They're here for anyone to see. And I've posted the story earlier, in different words.
(And the difference between my post(s) and the theories of Ace Baker is that he has no first-hand knowledge of the situation and has interviewed NO ONE who witnessed the events, and no one who was involved from the news media covering the events, and no one who made any of the many films/videos that he says all have to be fraudulent.)

I'm not arguing the physics. I'm not discussing the mechanics of the aircraft. I'm just saying what I saw.

More interesting than what I saw is what you're saying by even showing up in this thread..... You support Ace's beliefs? Please do say so, directly.

Ron,
I'm wandering between Tai Po, Shenzhen/Yantian and Hong Kong right now. I may have some free time that could sync up with your waking hours around Tuesday night your time (Wednesday morning ours). PM me a number and if I get rid of my visitors, I'll phone in a statement of the above (my part - the trucking guy who told his boss is totally anecdotal).

[chillzero]

Please let's not get sidetracked into bickering and so on. There is a specific request and topic in the OP.