Replace Greenwich Mean Time?

BPSCG · 22nd April 2008, 08:42 AM

Link

Quote:

Muslim scientists and clerics have called for the adoption of Mecca time to replace GMT, arguing that the Saudi city is the true centre of the Earth.

Mecca is the direction all Muslims face when they perform their daily prayers.

The call was issued at a conference held in the Gulf state of Qatar under the title: Mecca, the Centre of the Earth, Theory and Practice.

One geologist argued that unlike other longitudes, Mecca's was in perfect alignment to magnetic north.

How?

Mecca's Main Street lines up perfectly with magnetic north? Since magnetic north changes over time, are they constantly doing road work on Mecca Main Street to keep it in alignment?

Quote:

He said the English had imposed GMT on the rest of the world by force when Britain was a big colonial power, and it was about time that changed.

Yes, because the fact that the entire world uses GMT as the standard is so intolerable that everyone must go through a massive Y2K-type effort to reprogram all their clocks and watches to use MMT as the standard.

Quote:

A prominent cleric, Sheikh Youssef al-Qaradawy, said modern science had at last provided evidence that Mecca was the true centre of the Earth; proof, he said, of the greatness of the Muslim "qibla" - the Arabic word for the direction Muslims turn to when they pray.

I wonder what this prominent cleric thinks about what modern science has to say about evolution.

Quote:

The meeting also reviewed what has been described as a Mecca watch, the brainchild of a French Muslim.

The watch is said to rotate anti-clockwise and is supposed to help Muslims determine the direction of Mecca from any point on Earth.

It runs backwards. How appropriate.

Quote:

The meeting in Qatar is part of a popular trend in some Muslim societies of seeking to find Koranic precedents for modern science.

It is called "Ijaz al-Koran", which roughly translates as the "miraculous nature of the holy text".
The underlying belief is that scientific truths were also revealed in the Muslim holy book, and it is the work of scholars to unearth and publicise the textual evidence.

Form your conclusions, then find the evidence. Creationist "scientists" couldn't say it any better.

mrbaracuda · 22nd April 2008, 10:19 AM

Qaradawi taking part, huh? Who would have thought. Oh those Muslims.

dudalb · 22nd April 2008, 12:06 PM

I doubt this is gonna happen anytime soon.

jsiv · 22nd April 2008, 12:27 PM

Oh no they didn't!

You don't wanna mess with GMT.

It is the MEANEST time on earth.

Aitch · 22nd April 2008, 12:41 PM

A couple of points:

1. GMT was replaced by UTC some years ago.
2. IIRC magnetic north and south are about due to swap in the next few years. Which probably won't confuse too many clerics. I suppose they could always redefine north and south?

Madalch · 22nd April 2008, 01:35 PM

They're still discussing this?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=72734

ddt · 22nd April 2008, 02:25 PM

Apart from all the humbug in the article justifying why in any way Mecca time would be "better", a couple of nitpicks:

Originally Posted by article

He said the English had imposed GMT on the rest of the world by force when Britain was a big colonial power, and it was about time that changed.

Well, there he's right isn't he? The English imposed their Greenwich meridian system on the world when they were the world power, and consequently we began using GMT as the "standard time".

Not the whole world agrees, BTW. Michelin, the French tyre manufacturer and map maker, still uses the Paris meridian in its maps of France.

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Yes, because the fact that the entire world uses GMT as the standard is so intolerable that everyone must go through a massive Y2K-type effort to reprogram all their clocks and watches to use MMT as the standard.

What do you mean with this? You're not setting your watch to GMT, do you, but to EST or whatever timezone you're in? My major hassle with my watch is setting it to daylight savings time and back, two adjustments per year.

But as said before by other posters: we don't use GMT anymore, we use UTC; it's derived from UT1 - the real successor of GMT, solar time in Greenwich - by adding leap seconds, which are needed because the earth's rotational velocity slowly decreases, to keep it in line with atomic time TT, which is the true "absolute" time.

Your car navigation system uses GPS time, which does not have leap seconds, so it's 14 seconds out of sync with UTC. Do you still follow?

Oh, and some people want to abolish the leap second...

Time is a tricky business...

gtc · 22nd April 2008, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by ddt

Well, there he's right isn't he? The English imposed their Greenwich meridian system on the world when they were the world power, and consequently we began using GMT as the "standard time".

But did they impose it by force? I doubt it, but I would genuinely like to know.

Fnord · 22nd April 2008, 05:57 PM

The whole idea makes about as much sense as making Tupelo, Mississippi the center of the Earth simply because Elvis Presley was born there.

Madalch · 22nd April 2008, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

The whole idea makes about as much sense as making Tupelo, Mississippi the center of the Earth simply because Elvis Presley was born there.

I think DragonRock will find that a perfectly sensible idea.

fuelair · 22nd April 2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:
The meeting also reviewed what has been described as a Mecca watch, the brainchild of a French Muslim.

The watch is said to rotate anti-clockwise and is supposed to help Muslims determine the direction of Mecca from any point on Earth.

Are you sure that quote didn't say "brainfart" rather than "brainchild"?

mrbaracuda · 22nd April 2008, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Quote:
The meeting also reviewed what has been described as a Mecca watch, the brainchild of a French Muslim.

The watch is said to rotate anti-clockwise and is supposed to help Muslims determine the direction of Mecca from any point on Earth.

Are you sure that quote didn't say "brainfart" rather than "brainchild"?

Islamizing France might have been the wrong way to go. It doesn't seem to help in becoming "the pinnacle of science" again for some reason.

BenBurch · 22nd April 2008, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

...

The watch is said to rotate anti-clockwise and is supposed to help Muslims determine the direction of Mecca from any point on Earth.

...

Well, I'm sure that uses the trick you can do with any watch that has hands that usually is used to find an approximation of north.

See here; http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/compass.html

BenBurch · 22nd April 2008, 08:28 PM

on the OP: I thought we DID replace GMT quite some time ago!

There is this little thing called Coordinated Universal Time that has nothing to do with the Greenwich meridian other than being really close to GMT...

uk_dave · 22nd April 2008, 11:53 PM

I thought we all used 'Zulu' time nowadays.

TriangleMan · 23rd April 2008, 01:48 AM

Just when I think that this country is starting to get it together in terms of science and education something bizarre like this has to come along. Mecca is aligned with magnetic north?? Mecca is the center of the Earth?? *slams head against desk*

Beerina · 23rd April 2008, 07:01 AM

Earth really isn't based on GMT anymore. Scientists with atomic clocks tell the world when to add a leap second here and there. GMT as the 0-hour is just kind of a cute anachronism.

You wanna know the real time, you don't look up GMT. You turn on your GPS receiver or turn on a clock that listens to the atomic time broadcast out of Colorado.

sophia8 · 23rd April 2008, 07:26 AM

Quote:

The meeting in Qatar is part of a popular trend in some Muslim societies of seeking to find Koranic precedents for modern science.

It is called "Ijaz al-Koran", which roughly translates as the "miraculous nature of the holy text".
The underlying belief is that scientific truths were also revealed in the Muslim holy book, and it is the work of scholars to unearth and publicise the textual evidence.

Yawn. Yet another bunch of religious nuts claiming that their culture/religion invented everything before the West.

Just thinking · 23rd April 2008, 07:29 AM

Wasn't GMT chosen as the standard location for logical reasons as well as political? I mean, it placed the International Date Line in the middle of the Pacific Ocean --- rather convenient, no? That way you don't have little issues like going across town and changing days in the process. Where would it fall if Mecca was used?

Safe-Keeper · 23rd April 2008, 07:47 AM

Gasp! A culture that sees itself as the centre of Earth? How unheard of

!

BPSCG · 23rd April 2008, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Just thinking

Wasn't GMT chosen as the standard location for logical reasons as well as political? I mean, it placed the International Date Line in the middle of the Pacific Ocean --- rather convenient, no? That way you don't have little issues like going across town and changing days in the process. Where would it fall if Mecca was used?

Would still be pretty much in the middle of the Pacific, only about 39 degrees farther east of where it is now, i.e., closer to Hawaii. I couldn't find any significant population centers that would be affected.

FWIW, Moscow, Russia, is about same longitude as Mecca. Don't let Putin find out.

Spindrift · 23rd April 2008, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Just thinking

Wasn't GMT chosen as the standard location for logical reasons as well as political? I mean, it placed the International Date Line in the middle of the Pacific Ocean --- rather convenient, no? That way you don't have little issues like going across town and changing days in the process. Where would it fall if Mecca was used?

Huh? It really doesn't matter where the line is, 2 PM Eastern Standard would still be 2 PM Eastern Standard. Just that instead of being defined as UTC -5, it would be MTZ -8 (Mecca Time Zone). Not that I think it's a good idea. Sorry, ain't broke, don't fix it.

Darth Rotor · 23rd April 2008, 11:27 AM

If those Muslim meatheads would read the excellent book Longitude, they'd understand why this convention was in use for so long, and how it led to UCT.

Glad to see they are so wrapped up in what is critical to peace on earth and the blessings of Allah (may His camel fart silently.)

I was living on Zulu time decades before some of these prats had their brain fart.

The War on Stupid is a forever war.

DR

Hokulele · 23rd April 2008, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by BPSCG

Would still be pretty much in the middle of the Pacific, only about 39 degrees farther east of where it is now, i.e., closer to Hawaii. I couldn't find any significant population centers that would be affected.

FWIW, Moscow, Russia, is about same longitude as Mecca. Don't let Putin find out.

The Date Line is a pretty trivial consideration anyway, as any country can choose where it runs relative to their territory. It has some extremely odd squiggles through much of Polynesia right around the equator. Much of this is due to the whole Y2K thing where a number of the smaller countries were vying to be the first to enter the new millenium.

Darth Rotor · 23rd April 2008, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

The Date Line is a pretty trivial consideration anyway, as any country can choose where it runs relative to their territory. It has some extremely odd squiggles through much of Polynesia right around the equator. Much of this is due to the whole Y2K thing where a number of the smaller countries were vying to be the first to enter the new millenium.

Afghanistan is on GMT + 3 1/2 hours.

Don't ask how I know that.

Speaking of watch experts and Afghanistan, any heard from Antique Hunter lately?

I miss his input.

DR

Just thinking · 23rd April 2008, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

Huh? It really doesn't matter where the line is, 2 PM Eastern Standard would still be 2 PM Eastern Standard.

Do you mean the IDL? If so, I wouldn't agree so much with that, as I think it running through a major country would not be a good thing. Remember, the IDL runs opposite whatever is the longitudinal Universal Time Line. I just wasn't sure where it (IDL) would end up if it (UTL) were moved to Mecca.

Quote:

Just that instead of being defined as UTC -5, it would be MTZ -8 (Mecca Time Zone). Not that I think it's a good idea. Sorry, ain't broke, don't fix it.

I hope I never implied that the above would not be the case. Local time is always that, local time.

Aitch · 25th April 2008, 04:38 AM

Quote:

The meeting in Qatar is part of a popular trend in some Muslim societies of seeking to find Koranic precedents for modern science.

It is called "Ijaz al-Koran", which roughly translates as the "miraculous nature of the holy text".
The underlying belief is that scientific truths were also revealed in the Muslim holy book, and it is the work of scholars to unearth and publicise the textual evidence.

About ten years ago,I worked with a fundamentalist Muslim who swore blind that ALL modern science was in the Koran, including the General Theory of Relativity. It was just that he couldn't remember quite where it was in the copy that someone had brought in for him to show us. Plus, of course, it was an English translated version, so was probably inaccurate.

To avoid me being called Islamophobic, there was also a fundy Christian in the office who, whenever evolution was discussed, would put his hands over his ears and repeat "There is no evidence" in an increasingly loud voice until we discussed something else.

Darat · 25th April 2008, 04:43 AM

I've been to Greenwich many times and I've never felt I could describe my visit as a mean time. Always seems rather unfair to the place.

ddt · 25th April 2008, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by gtc

But did they impose it by force? I doubt it, but I would genuinely like to know.

Sorry I overlooked that word. I don't think so.

GMT was adopted at the International Meridian Conference as the universal time. Turkey, which then stretched over the whole Middle East, also attended the conference and voted in favor.

An interesting tidbit is that the conference decided a new day should start at midnight, but the astronomers still used noon as the start of a new day until 1925.

ddt · 25th April 2008, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Earth really isn't based on GMT anymore. Scientists with atomic clocks tell the world when to add a leap second here and there. GMT as the 0-hour is just kind of a cute anachronism.

Actually, some USians have proposed to abolish those leap seconds! Just when the POSIX standard has been updated to reflect them...

Originally Posted by Beerina

You wanna know the real time, you don't look up GMT. You turn on your GPS receiver or turn on a clock that listens to the atomic time broadcast out of Colorado.

Or you configure your computer to use NTP and to ask the time from a computer which is attached to an atomic clock

richardm · 25th April 2008, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I've been to Greenwich many times and I've never felt I could describe my visit as a mean time. Always seems rather unfair to the place.

I did refuse to go 50:50 on lunch because my then girlfriend had ice-cream and I didn't. I told her I was entering into the spirit of Greenwich but she didn't seem impressed.

BenBurch · 26th April 2008, 08:58 PM

My home town, Elgin, IL, was the source of time signals for most of the railroads in the country for many years. This was a service of the Elgin National Watch Company, which had an observatory with a transit instrument and a pair of very accurate pendulum clocks which were regulated by the observed transit of stars.

The observatory still stands and is owned by the school district. For a time there was a very robust astronomy program here in the public schools, but current administration was forced to nearly end it due to the "no child left behind" act which made it impossible to devote classroom time to astronomy.

-Ben

Denver · 27th April 2008, 08:07 AM

In a time of such massive information distribution, I think we should extend the standard times to include PTS (Personal Time System). We can each have our own personal time. Whenever someone says "Meet me at noon", it means noon my time. Moreover, whenever someone says "Wake me at lunch", it means whenever I eat lunch. A Bank would say it pays interest at "Midnight BANK time" - which could be very profitable for the bank if it moves this around, so we'd need special Time-System legislation and lobbyists.

I haven't read too much by Neal Stephenson, but I'm starting to feel he'd be right at home with this.

RandFan · 27th April 2008, 09:05 AM

"Does anybody really know what time it is?" --Robert Lamm

linusrichard · 27th April 2008, 07:43 PM

I'm no laissez-faire type, but I think this is a perfect issue to be solved by the invisible hand of the marketplace.

If people want to switch, let them switch. If people want to stick with status quo, let them stick. Whichever system prevails will only do so by being the better system, so either way we end up with the better of the two. Win-win.

Wildy · 30th April 2008, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by linusrichard

I'm no laissez-faire type, but I think this is a perfect issue to be solved by the invisible hand of the marketplace.

If people want to switch, let them switch. If people want to stick with status quo, let them stick. Whichever system prevails will only do so by being the better system, so either way we end up with the better of the two. Win-win.

Let the market determine time???

New from Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash: Time.

22nd April 2008, 08:42 AM	#1
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Replace Greenwich Mean Time? Link Quote: Muslim scientists and clerics have called for the adoption of Mecca time to replace GMT, arguing that the Saudi city is the true centre of the Earth. Mecca is the direction all Muslims face when they perform their daily prayers. The call was issued at a conference held in the Gulf state of Qatar under the title: Mecca, the Centre of the Earth, Theory and Practice. One geologist argued that unlike other longitudes, Mecca's was in perfect alignment to magnetic north. How? Mecca's Main Street lines up perfectly with magnetic north? Since magnetic north changes over time, are they constantly doing road work on Mecca Main Street to keep it in alignment? Quote: He said the English had imposed GMT on the rest of the world by force when Britain was a big colonial power, and it was about time that changed. Yes, because the fact that the entire world uses GMT as the standard is so intolerable that everyone must go through a massive Y2K-type effort to reprogram all their clocks and watches to use MMT as the standard. Quote: A prominent cleric, Sheikh Youssef al-Qaradawy, said modern science had at last provided evidence that Mecca was the true centre of the Earth; proof, he said, of the greatness of the Muslim "qibla" - the Arabic word for the direction Muslims turn to when they pray. I wonder what this prominent *cleric* thinks about what modern science has to say about evolution. Quote: The meeting also reviewed what has been described as a Mecca watch, the brainchild of a French Muslim. The watch is said to rotate anti-clockwise and is supposed to help Muslims determine the direction of Mecca from any point on Earth. It runs backwards. How appropriate. Quote: The meeting in Qatar is part of a popular trend in some Muslim societies of seeking to find Koranic precedents for modern science. It is called "Ijaz al-Koran", which roughly translates as the "miraculous nature of the holy text". The underlying belief is that scientific truths were also revealed in the Muslim holy book, and it is the work of scholars to unearth and publicise the textual evidence. Form your conclusions, then find the evidence. Creationist "scientists" couldn't say it any better.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

22nd April 2008, 12:27 PM	#4
jsiv King of Svalbard Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Bortenfor alle blåner Posts: 4,492	Oh no they didn't! You don't wanna mess with GMT. It is the MEANEST time on earth.
	__________________ Panama er landet eg drøymer om!

22nd April 2008, 01:35 PM	#6
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,707	They're still discussing this? http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=72734
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

22nd April 2008, 05:50 PM	#8
gtc Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: the downunderverse Posts: 7,114	Originally Posted by ddt Well, there he's right isn't he? The English imposed their Greenwich meridian system on the world when they were the world power, and consequently we began using GMT as the "standard time". But did they impose it by force? I doubt it, but I would genuinely like to know.
	__________________

22nd April 2008, 05:57 PM	#9
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	The whole idea makes about as much sense as making Tupelo, Mississippi the center of the Earth simply because Elvis Presley was born there.
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

22nd April 2008, 10:19 AM	#2
mrbaracuda Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 3,799	Qaradawi taking part, huh? Who would have thought. Oh those Muslims.

22nd April 2008, 12:06 PM	#3
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,848	I doubt this is gonna happen anytime soon.

22nd April 2008, 12:41 PM	#5
Aitch Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: StAines Posts: 2,731	A couple of points: 1. GMT was replaced by UTC some years ago. 2. IIRC magnetic north and south are about due to swap in the next few years. Which probably won't confuse too many clerics. I suppose they could always redefine north and south?

22nd April 2008, 02:25 PM	#7
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,331	Apart from all the humbug in the article justifying why in any way Mecca time would be "better", a couple of nitpicks: Originally Posted by article He said the English had imposed GMT on the rest of the world by force when Britain was a big colonial power, and it was about time that changed. Well, there he's right isn't he? The English imposed their Greenwich meridian system on the world when they were the world power, and consequently we began using GMT as the "standard time". Not the whole world agrees, BTW. Michelin, the French tyre manufacturer and map maker, still uses the Paris meridian in its maps of France. Originally Posted by BPSCG Yes, because the fact that the entire world uses GMT as the standard is so intolerable that everyone must go through a massive Y2K-type effort to reprogram all their clocks and watches to use MMT as the standard. What do you mean with this? You're not setting your watch to GMT, do you, but to EST or whatever timezone you're in? My major hassle with my watch is setting it to daylight savings time and back, two adjustments per year. But as said before by other posters: we don't use GMT anymore, we use UTC; it's derived from UT1 - the real successor of GMT, solar time in Greenwich - by adding leap seconds, which are needed because the earth's rotational velocity slowly decreases, to keep it in line with atomic time TT, which is the true "absolute" time. Your car navigation system uses GPS time, which does not have leap seconds, so it's 14 seconds out of sync with UTC. Do you still follow? Oh, and some people want to abolish the leap second... Time is a tricky business...

22nd April 2008, 05:59 PM	#10
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,707	Originally Posted by Fnord The whole idea makes about as much sense as making Tupelo, Mississippi the center of the Earth simply because Elvis Presley was born there. I think DragonRock will find that a perfectly sensible idea.
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

22nd April 2008, 06:12 PM	#11
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Quote: The meeting also reviewed what has been described as a Mecca watch, the brainchild of a French Muslim. The watch is said to rotate anti-clockwise and is supposed to help Muslims determine the direction of Mecca from any point on Earth. Are you sure that quote didn't say "brainfart" rather than "brainchild"?
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961

22nd April 2008, 06:50 PM	#12
mrbaracuda Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 3,799	Originally Posted by fuelair Quote: The meeting also reviewed what has been described as a Mecca watch, the brainchild of a French Muslim. The watch is said to rotate anti-clockwise and is supposed to help Muslims determine the direction of Mecca from any point on Earth. Are you sure that quote didn't say "brainfart" rather than "brainchild"? Islamizing France might have been the wrong way to go. It doesn't seem to help in becoming "the pinnacle of science" again for some reason.

22nd April 2008, 08:26 PM	#13
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,222	Originally Posted by fuelair ... The watch is said to rotate anti-clockwise and is supposed to help Muslims determine the direction of Mecca from any point on Earth. ... Well, I'm sure that uses the trick you can do with any watch that has hands that usually is used to find an approximation of north. See here; http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/compass.html
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22nd April 2008, 08:28 PM	#14
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,222	on the OP: I thought we DID replace GMT quite some time ago! There is this little thing called Coordinated Universal Time that has nothing to do with the Greenwich meridian other than being really close to GMT...
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22nd April 2008, 11:53 PM	#15
uk_dave Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 7,866	I thought we all used 'Zulu' time nowadays.
uk_dave Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 7,866

23rd April 2008, 01:48 AM	#16
TriangleMan Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Qatar (ya rly!) Posts: 1,208	Just when I think that this country is starting to get it together in terms of science and education something bizarre like this has to come along. Mecca is aligned with magnetic north?? Mecca is the center of the Earth?? slams head against desk

23rd April 2008, 07:01 AM	#17
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Earth really isn't based on GMT anymore. Scientists with atomic clocks tell the world when to add a leap second here and there. GMT as the 0-hour is just kind of a cute anachronism. You wanna know the real time, you don't look up GMT. You turn on your GPS receiver or turn on a clock that listens to the atomic time broadcast out of Colorado.
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23rd April 2008, 07:26 AM	#18
sophia8 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: In the dark, dark forest.... Posts: 2,266	Quote: The meeting in Qatar is part of a popular trend in some Muslim societies of seeking to find Koranic precedents for modern science. It is called "Ijaz al-Koran", which roughly translates as the "miraculous nature of the holy text". The underlying belief is that scientific truths were also revealed in the Muslim holy book, and it is the work of scholars to unearth and publicise the textual evidence. Yawn. Yet another bunch of religious nuts claiming that their culture/religion invented everything before the West.
	__________________ "Nature is floods and famines and earthquakes and viruses and little blue-footed booby babies getting their brains pecked out by their stronger siblings! ....Nature doesn't care about me, or about anybody in particular - nature can be terrifying! Why do they even put words like 'natural' on products like shampoo, like it's automatically a good thing? I mean, sulfuric acid is natural!" -Julia Sweeney

23rd April 2008, 07:29 AM	#19
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	Wasn't GMT chosen as the standard location for logical reasons as well as political? I mean, it placed the International Date Line in the middle of the Pacific Ocean --- rather convenient, no? That way you don't have little issues like going across town and changing days in the process. Where would it fall if Mecca was used?
	__________________ Our greatest challenge is not just to ask the important questions, but to recognize the meaningless ones.

23rd April 2008, 07:47 AM	#20
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,124	Gasp! A culture that sees itself as the centre of Earth? How unheard of!

23rd April 2008, 08:04 AM	#21
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Originally Posted by Just thinking Wasn't GMT chosen as the standard location for logical reasons as well as political? I mean, it placed the International Date Line in the middle of the Pacific Ocean --- rather convenient, no? That way you don't have little issues like going across town and changing days in the process. Where would it fall if Mecca was used? Would still be pretty much in the middle of the Pacific, only about 39 degrees farther east of where it is now, i.e., closer to Hawaii. I couldn't find any significant population centers that would be affected. FWIW, Moscow, Russia, is about same longitude as Mecca. Don't let Putin find out.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

23rd April 2008, 11:02 AM	#22
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,461	Originally Posted by Just thinking Wasn't GMT chosen as the standard location for logical reasons as well as political? I mean, it placed the International Date Line in the middle of the Pacific Ocean --- rather convenient, no? That way you don't have little issues like going across town and changing days in the process. Where would it fall if Mecca was used? Huh? It really doesn't matter where the line is, 2 PM Eastern Standard would still be 2 PM Eastern Standard. Just that instead of being defined as UTC -5, it would be MTZ -8 (Mecca Time Zone). Not that I think it's a good idea. Sorry, ain't broke, don't fix it.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

23rd April 2008, 11:27 AM	#23
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,289	If those Muslim meatheads would read the excellent book Longitude, they'd understand why this convention was in use for so long, and how it led to UCT. Glad to see they are so wrapped up in what is critical to peace on earth and the blessings of Allah (may His camel fart silently.) I was living on Zulu time decades before some of these prats had their brain fart. The War on Stupid is a forever war. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 23rd April 2008 at 11:27 AM.

23rd April 2008, 12:01 PM	#24
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,275	Originally Posted by BPSCG Would still be pretty much in the middle of the Pacific, only about 39 degrees farther east of where it is now, i.e., closer to Hawaii. I couldn't find any significant population centers that would be affected. FWIW, Moscow, Russia, is about same longitude as Mecca. Don't let Putin find out. The Date Line is a pretty trivial consideration anyway, as any country can choose where it runs relative to their territory. It has some extremely odd squiggles through much of Polynesia right around the equator. Much of this is due to the whole Y2K thing where a number of the smaller countries were vying to be the first to enter the new millenium.
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

23rd April 2008, 12:04 PM	#25
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,289	Originally Posted by Hokulele The Date Line is a pretty trivial consideration anyway, as any country can choose where it runs relative to their territory. It has some extremely odd squiggles through much of Polynesia right around the equator. Much of this is due to the whole Y2K thing where a number of the smaller countries were vying to be the first to enter the new millenium. Afghanistan is on GMT + 3 1/2 hours. Don't ask how I know that. Speaking of watch experts and Afghanistan, any heard from Antique Hunter lately? I miss his input. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

23rd April 2008, 12:20 PM	#26
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	Originally Posted by Spindrift Huh? It really doesn't matter where the line is, 2 PM Eastern Standard would still be 2 PM Eastern Standard. Do you mean the IDL? If so, I wouldn't agree so much with that, as I think it running through a major country would not be a good thing. Remember, the IDL runs opposite whatever is the longitudinal Universal Time Line. I just wasn't sure where it (IDL) would end up if it (UTL) were moved to Mecca. Quote: Just that instead of being defined as UTC -5, it would be MTZ -8 (Mecca Time Zone). Not that I think it's a good idea. Sorry, ain't broke, don't fix it. I hope I never implied that the above would not be the case. Local time is always that, local time.
	__________________ Our greatest challenge is not just to ask the important questions, but to recognize the meaningless ones. Last edited by Just thinking; 23rd April 2008 at 12:22 PM.

25th April 2008, 04:38 AM	#27
Aitch Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: StAines Posts: 2,731	Quote: The meeting in Qatar is part of a popular trend in some Muslim societies of seeking to find Koranic precedents for modern science. It is called "Ijaz al-Koran", which roughly translates as the "miraculous nature of the holy text". The underlying belief is that scientific truths were also revealed in the Muslim holy book, and it is the work of scholars to unearth and publicise the textual evidence. About ten years ago,I worked with a fundamentalist Muslim who swore blind that ALL modern science was in the Koran, including the General Theory of Relativity. It was just that he couldn't remember quite where it was in the copy that someone had brought in for him to show us. Plus, of course, it was an English translated version, so was probably inaccurate. To avoid me being called Islamophobic, there was also a fundy Christian in the office who, whenever evolution was discussed, would put his hands over his ears and repeat "There is no evidence" in an increasingly loud voice until we discussed something else.

25th April 2008, 04:43 AM	#28
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	I've been to Greenwich many times and I've never felt I could describe my visit as a mean time. Always seems rather unfair to the place.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

25th April 2008, 05:12 AM	#29
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,331	Originally Posted by gtc But did they impose it by force? I doubt it, but I would genuinely like to know. Sorry I overlooked that word. I don't think so. GMT was adopted at the International Meridian Conference as the universal time. Turkey, which then stretched over the whole Middle East, also attended the conference and voted in favor. An interesting tidbit is that the conference decided a new day should start at midnight, but the astronomers still used noon as the start of a new day until 1925.

25th April 2008, 05:18 AM	#30
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,331	Originally Posted by Beerina Earth really isn't based on GMT anymore. Scientists with atomic clocks tell the world when to add a leap second here and there. GMT as the 0-hour is just kind of a cute anachronism. Actually, some USians have proposed to abolish those leap seconds! Just when the POSIX standard has been updated to reflect them... Originally Posted by Beerina You wanna know the real time, you don't look up GMT. You turn on your GPS receiver or turn on a clock that listens to the atomic time broadcast out of Colorado. Or you configure your computer to use NTP and to ask the time from a computer which is attached to an atomic clock

25th April 2008, 07:12 AM	#31
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Originally Posted by Darat I've been to Greenwich many times and I've never felt I could describe my visit as a mean time. Always seems rather unfair to the place. I did refuse to go 50:50 on lunch because my then girlfriend had ice-cream and I didn't. I told her I was entering into the spirit of Greenwich but she didn't seem impressed.
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

26th April 2008, 08:58 PM	#32
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,222	My home town, Elgin, IL, was the source of time signals for most of the railroads in the country for many years. This was a service of the Elgin National Watch Company, which had an observatory with a transit instrument and a pair of very accurate pendulum clocks which were regulated by the observed transit of stars. The observatory still stands and is owned by the school district. For a time there was a very robust astronomy program here in the public schools, but current administration was forced to nearly end it due to the "no child left behind" act which made it impossible to devote classroom time to astronomy. -Ben
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27th April 2008, 08:07 AM	#33
Denver Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 6,606	In a time of such massive information distribution, I think we should extend the standard times to include PTS (Personal Time System). We can each have our own personal time. Whenever someone says "Meet me at noon", it means noon my time. Moreover, whenever someone says "Wake me at lunch", it means whenever I eat lunch. A Bank would say it pays interest at "Midnight BANK time" - which could be very profitable for the bank if it moves this around, so we'd need special Time-System legislation and lobbyists. I haven't read too much by Neal Stephenson, but I'm starting to feel he'd be right at home with this.

27th April 2008, 09:05 AM	#34
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,433	"Does anybody really know what time it is?" --Robert Lamm
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

27th April 2008, 07:43 PM	#35
linusrichard Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Lansing, Mich. Posts: 2,666	I'm no laissez-faire type, but I think this is a perfect issue to be solved by the invisible hand of the marketplace. If people want to switch, let them switch. If people want to stick with status quo, let them stick. Whichever system prevails will only do so by being the better system, so either way we end up with the better of the two. Win-win.