Tisk, tisk, for shame!

[jandarian]

Hi People,

I tend to do a lot of reading, not too big on jumping in. That said, I have noticed a trend on these CT boards that is disturbing: a total lack of understanding of the CT mind, and in general the cult mind.

So many of you veteran posters, who I know have been through this stuff too much to want to help the new generations of the gullible, are really in need of being checked here.

These people that come on here are looking for answers. Were you expecting them to come with evidence? Of what? We know they have been woo'ed; but they don't. They've been instilled with the sense that they are hero's, taking on the Big Baddies and saving the world. When you think like that you never have to develop critical thought, and so being confronted on that basis, can only have the effect of chasing them away, back into the waiting arms of nut jobs like Alex Jones and his ilk.

I do not mean to lecture, you guys do a fine job for the most part, but your frustrations are getting the better of you. Take these kids in, when they come looking for answers, or even to spread the 'twoof. They are suffering from the momentum of deception. They need confronting, and acceptance.

Is it the job of the Student to relate to the Teacher now? If these were the members of FLDS cult just coming in, would you bash them for their words so quickly? I expect more understanding, and guidance. With that, please don't make me come out of my shell for a while, I'll thank you.

[defaultdotxbe]

the trouble is that thus far everyone that has come here "looking for answers" is quickly revealed to have already decided on the answers they want to hear, and rejects any others

essentially they come saying "i just heard about this group, they seem nice, but are they a cult" and then its later revealed they are 4th order members of said cult looking for new recruits

[PhantomWolf]

The trouble is that after 6 years of having their questions answered, they still refuse to accept the answers. Thus the angles have changed from answering questions to try and get them to question their own beliefs and view what evidence they have for them, unfortunately that doesn't seem to work either. The issue is that they aren't coming here to find a way to escape their mind set, they are perfectly happy believing what they do, which basically means for the most part they are just here to troll.

[Slayhamlet]

Is it our job to convert CT cultists, or to expose CT rubbish and lies for what they are?

[X]

I give new members the benefit of the doubt.

At the moment, however, the CTists present are not actually interested in answers, but in the confirmation of pre-concieved notions. They reject categorically the possiblity of being wrong. The ones who get derision have earned it by refusing repeatedly to listen to the answer to their questions, and thereby insulting those who answered said questions.

If someone comes by legitmately and honestly seeking answers, they shall find them for the asking.
Although they might find themselves re-directed to a thread or website which contains a discussion of the subject matter. Hopefully they won't feel they are being brushed off. It's just that nobody wants to answer the same claim over and over again. Especially ones that can be easily researched.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by Slayhamlet

Is it our job to convert CT cultists, or to expose CT rubbish and lies for what they are?

Only if that's what the NWO is paying you for.

[Southwind17]

Originally Posted by jandarian

So many of you veteran posters, who I know have been through this stuff too much to want to help the new generations of the gullible, are really in need of being checked here.

These people that come on here are looking for answers.

Take these kids in, when they come looking for answers, or even to spread the 'twoof. They are suffering from the momentum of deception. They need confronting, and acceptance.

Is it the job of the Student to relate to the Teacher now?

I realize you're new here yourself, but can you give some examples of CT posters here who satisfy the characteristics you describe (highlighted above)? It seems important, as always, to validate your assertion before attempting to understand and explain it.

[Newtons Bit]

The truthers that post on this forum are by and large not kids. Most of them are middle-aged. We take them to task because kids do look at this forum and they look at loose change forums and above top secret, etc. Showing the leaders and the old-men of the woo to be frauds, liars and above all, incompetent, is the most important step in preventing real kids from falling for this garbage.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

The truthers that post on this forum are by and large not kids. Most of them are middle-aged.

Could have fooled me, they certain act like a bunch of 5-year olds.

[jandarian]

I concede the point that some come here simply to lure the gullible. But, by and large, out of the thousands of posts I have read, many are genuinely seeking either to share this 'great' truth, or to find some kind of validation. Again, how can we ask them to think critically, when it's so obvious that that faculty has been nearly taken from them?

No, Southwind17, I see no need to validate something that seems so self-evident to me. If you really need more, just read any of the top 20 threads in this forum, and if that doesn't convince you of the validity of my OP, then perhaps you are either being purposefully obtuse, or in need of more reading, and less posting. And though, length of stay means less than experience or interest, I am not new here, I have been here longer than you.

As I said before, there is no lecture here, just a moment of pause, to both commend the veterans, and remind them of why they bother in the first place.

[Pardalis]

Newcomers have the stickies, this directory and Gravy's site, which links to other sites filled with information.

[jandarian]

Yes, of course, Pardalis, but is that not a bit like handing a cult member a pamphlet entitled "Why Cults are Frauds", and then walking away, hoping that that will be enough?

I love aggle-rithm's quote in your sig. Spot on.

[defaultdotxbe]

Originally Posted by jandarian

Yes, of course, Pardalis, but is that not a bit like handing a cult member a pamphlet entitled "Why Cults are Frauds", and then walking away, hoping that that will be enough?

no, its more like handing him a pamphlet that says "why the specific cult you are in is a fraud and what you can do about it" then watching them wad it up and throw it back at you without reading it

[R.Mackey]

Some of us also provide answers even to the dyed-in-wool conspiracy believers, so long as the question is reasonable and/or educational. I offer this recent thread of mine as an example.

Thus far, the effect on the conspiracy believers themselves has been slight, but many others have benefited, including those who truly are on the fence. This late in the game, however, such folks appear to be quite unusual.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by jandarian

...why they bother in the first place.

Expose 9/11 truth as hearsay false information fools.

[gumboot]

The OP is not even logical...

"Take these kids in, when they come looking for answers, or even to spread the 'twoof. They are suffering from the momentum of deception. They need confronting, and acceptance."

The above sentences are meaningless dribble... they need confronting and acceptance? Right...

Anyone got a psychobabble translator handy?

[jandarian]

I appreciate where you are coming from Gumboot, but unless you've ever been charged with helping teens recover from the trauma of cultism, you likely cannot relate.

The folks who have been bamboozled by the woo crafters are in serious need of both those things. Confrontation, and yes, acceptance. Have you ever had your mind done in by these people? Do you know what its like to look at the whole world, and not be able to trust a single individual, while at the same time, carrying the wait of whatever your cult belief may be?

Again, I appreciate your point of view, there are times in life when the more hard edged approach is indeed needed; such as when the recruiters come here to do what they do. But when those who have been mentally damaged by these things land in here, do you imagine your approach helps, or hinders their ability to recover?

Perhaps for some of you, merely telling people what to think is enough, maybe there are some who know, that as caring humans, we could be helping them to remember how to think.

Oh, and Southwind17, if you need some validation on my OP, I believe Gumboot has just provided it.

[jandarian]

R.Mackey, I apologize for forgetting to give attention to your response.

Yes, indeed, you seem to be aware that there is a need in these 'truthers' to be accepted. When we accept them as people, and not just Tools, it can make the dialog mean more than just a debate.

As you build trust, you break down walls. Maybe in time a few will pass beyond the walls that have so enslaved their thinking, and return to a healthy frame of mind.

And selfishly maybe, would you not feel good, knowing you had helped a person, instead of just giving them the same scorn and belittlement passed around on these boards all too often?

(yes, Gumboot, I feel you twitching from over here, more psychobabble. Ha!)

[Architect]

It's an interesting point. You all know my views on our tendency to leap down the throat of CTers the moment they appear in contrast to (say) the more measured tones we get at Bautforum.

It's a difficult balance, though. What do we do when confronted with the likes of Magz or Heiwa, who are just here for a barney? Nothing will change their minds, ever. How does one gently put an arm around LastChild and explain he's wrong, when he refuses to listed to opposing arguments?

I think, FWIW, that we need to give new posters the benefit of doubt and explain in a much more friendly manner that we reserve for the aforementioned gentlemen. We can, and sometimes do, take such steps. Perhaps we should just widen our arms a bit more and make sure fewer slip betwixt.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by jandarian

R.Mackey, I apologize for forgetting to give attention to your response.

Yes, indeed, you seem to be aware that there is a need in these 'truthers' to be accepted. When we accept them as people, and not just Tools, it can make the dialog mean more than just a debate.

As you build trust, you break down walls. Maybe in time a few will pass beyond the walls that have so enslaved their thinking, and return to a healthy frame of mind.

And selfishly maybe, would you not feel good, knowing you had helped a person, instead of just giving them the same scorn and belittlement passed around on these boards all too often?

(yes, Gumboot, I feel you twitching from over here, more psychobabble. Ha!)

And may the bluebird of happiness fly free and all god's children will see.

Trust doesn't break down walls, sledgehammers do.

[dommyboysinjapan]

[X],

Quote:

At the moment, however, the CTists present are not actually interested in answers, but in the confirmation of pre-concieved notions.

I am proud to call myself a member of the Truth Movement (Associate member of 911 Truth and Justice). I am also proud to say that I am a conspiracy theorist. I know for a fact that sometimes two or more people conspire together to commit illegal acts. Having said this I must say that I am VERY interested in answers. If all or any of my questions can be answered with some kind of verifiable evidence: i.e. video, documentary, photo evidence etc, then of course I am willing to adjust my understanding accordingly.

Quote:

They reject categorically the possiblity of being wrong.

Nobody can be 100% sure of absolutely everything that happened on and prior to 9/11. I will tell you and all members reading this right now that it is certainly possible that my understanding of the events of 9/11 (or lack thereof) can be wrong. Its a complicated issue with a lot of contraversy. I think the U.S. is one of the fairest and best countries in the world. It is easy to see that only when one starts to compare it to many other countries. With all the corruption that does go on in the U.S. the grass is certainly not greener on the other side. In many countries people who vocally oppose the government are taken out and shot. Plain and simple. Who on these boards would at least acknowledge just the possibility that certain members of the 9/11 Commission or any other investigation upon which it was based were more interested in protecting the government from liability than doggedly getting at all the facts of the case. Who here would even admit for a second that the events of 9/11 helped to advance a pre existing war agenda particularly in Iraq?

Quote:

If someone comes by legitmately and honestly seeking answers, they shall find them for the asking.
Although they might find themselves re-directed to a thread or website which contains a discussion of the subject matter. Hopefully they won't feel they are being brushed off. It's just that nobody wants to answer the same claim over and over again. Especially ones that can be easily researched.

I believe this is fair. Anyone expecting others to make the effort to address their questions could not ask for anything more.

[dommyboysinjapan]

jandarian,

You seem like a reasonable person and I would be interested in hearing any opinions that you would feel comfortable with sharing regarding the events of 9/11.

[X]

Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan

[X],


I am proud to call myself a member of the Truth Movement (Associate member of 911 Truth and Justice). I am also proud to say that I am a conspiracy theorist. I know for a fact that sometimes two or more people conspire together to commit illegal acts. Having said this I must say that I am VERY interested in answers. If all or any of my questions can be answered with some kind of verifiable evidence: i.e. video, documentary, photo evidence etc, then of course I am willing to adjust my understanding accordingly.

Nobody can be 100% sure of absolutely everything that happened on and prior to 9/11. I will tell you and all members reading this right now that it is certainly possible that my understanding of the events of 9/11 (or lack thereof) can be wrong. Its a complicated issue with a lot of controversy. I think the U.S. is one of the fairest and best countries in the world. It is easy to see that only when one starts to compare it to many other countries. With all the corruption that does go on in the U.S. the grass is certainly not greener on the other side. In many countries people who vocally oppose the government are taken out and shot. Plain and simple. Who on these boards would at least acknowledge just the possibility that certain members of the 9/11 Commission or any other investigation upon which it was based were more interested in protecting the government from liability than doggedly getting at all the facts of the case. Who here would even admit for a second that the events of 9/11 helped to advance a pre existing war agenda particularly in Iraq?

I believe this is fair. Anyone expecting others to make the effort to address their questions could not ask for anything more.

I stand corrected then. We do seem to have an honest CTist here. I apologize for broad-brushing you.

ETA: If you want information that will likely answer several of your concerns, start here. There is a wealth of information on that site and others it links to.
Search through the site for your questions, as there's a good chance you'd be directed there anyways. If you have questions that aren't discussed, or require clarification, fell free to ask the members here.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by jandarian

I appreciate where you are coming from Gumboot, but unless you've ever been charged with helping teens recover from the trauma of cultism, you likely cannot relate.

Um... say what?

I'm sorry, but you don't seem overly familiar with Conspiracy Theorists. The vast majority are just angsty teenagers and will grow out of it all in due time. Frankly I think playing "battle the NWO" online is a far healthier way to rebel against "the man" than unprotected sex, drug taking, dangerous driving, binge drinking, or any one of a dozen other stables of teenage rebellion.

There's a LOT of people here arguing the official account of 9/11 who started on the other side. Most of the CTers are kids who will follow in their own time.

There's another bunch who are professional CTers. They've usually got an axe to grind, and always got a buck to make. Dr Griffin, Dr Jones, Alex Jones, and so forth. I'm about 95% certain these people know what they're saying is garbage.

Finally there's the last group which are the people who appear to actually be mentally ill, and for whatever god forsaken reason just happen to have latched onto the 9/11 CT. The level of mental illness seems to vary from those who are just sociopathic and paranoid (I'm thinking people like "Killtown") to the out and out nutjobs who should frankly be pitied.

There is no 9/11 cult. None. Nada. These people do not display any of the most basic characteristics of cultism. Most notably, they will turn on each other at the drop of a hat.

Originally Posted by jandarian

The folks who have been bamboozled by the woo crafters are in serious need of both those things.

The only ones in the above groups who have been bamboozled are the ones rebelling, and the only thing they're in serious need of is time. They will mature in their own time, I'm guessing probably within a week or two of finding a girlfriend or a real job.

It seems your entire approach is based on the premise that 9/11 CTs are some sort of cult, that those believing said CTs have been brainwashed by the leaders of this cult, and are victims who need help.

I couldn't disagree more. I think you're entire analysis suffers from the old problem:

"If you're only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

Obviously you have experience with cults. Great. There's no 9/11 cult. Your experience does not apply to this group of people.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by jandarian

Yes, indeed, you seem to be aware that there is a need in these 'truthers' to be accepted. When we accept them as people, and not just Tools, it can make the dialog mean more than just a debate.

The last thing they want is to be accepted. Nothing infuriates an angsty teenager more than their parents encouraging and accepting whatever ghastly activity they've taken up in order to rebel.

For what it's worth, if you've been following the threads on these forums as you claim you'll notice that I always give every new poster the benefit of the doubt, and when they display a refusal to learn (such as A-Train, Swing Dangler, to name a couple) I simply stop exchanging posts with them.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by dommyboysinjapan

Who on these boards would at least acknowledge just the possibility that certain members of the 9/11 Commission or any other investigation upon which it was based were more interested in protecting the government from liability than doggedly getting at all the facts of the case. Who here would even admit for a second that the events of 9/11 helped to advance a pre existing war agenda particularly in Iraq?

I think you'll find that many people on this subforum have expressed precisely these two above points on numerous occasions.

It's quite obvious that the Bush administration had ambitions in Iraq. It's also quite obvious that 9/11 assisted in those ambitions. The problem is when people make the leap of concluding therefore that the Bush administration had something to do with 9/11 happening in the first place. This does not follow logically, and there is no a shred of evidence to support it.

[boloboffin]

Originally Posted by gumboot

The last thing they want is to be accepted. Nothing infuriates an angsty teenager more than their parents encouraging and accepting whatever ghastly activity they've taken up in order to rebel.

OMG! That's it! We should all become members of the Truth Movement immediately and start bonding procedures! "So when's the next march at Ground Zero? What are we wearing? Can we get those T-Shirts wholesale?"

As soon as parental figures take up a cause, it truly is dead. Ladies and Gentlemen, start your YouTubery.

[JimBenArm]

Originally Posted by gumboot

The last thing they want is to be accepted. Nothing infuriates an angsty teenager more than their parents encouraging and accepting whatever ghastly activity they've taken up in order to rebel.

For what it's worth, if you've been following the threads on these forums as you claim you'll notice that I always give every new poster the benefit of the doubt, and when they display a refusal to learn (such as A-Train, Swing Dangler, to name a couple) I simply stop exchanging posts with them.

Is that why we never talk anymore? >sob<

[X]

Originally Posted by JimBenArm

Is that why we never talk anymore? >sob<

It's nothing that complicated.
He just doesn't like you.

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by [X]

It's nothing that complicated.
He just doesn't like you.

I'm just jealous of his Avatar and Custom Title.

[A W Smith]

jandarian;

Apparently you have been reading for over a year but you have been slow on the uptake. You don't seem to be aware of who the truther players are here. Mark Roberts left this sub forum because there was no evidence of any truthers wanting to actually learn anything. Mostly just ineducable trolling. If you look at the current threads you yourself are directing us to you will find very few if any looking for answers. At this point 7 years later they are mostly trolls debating semantics. I don't know what side of the fence you are on but you seem to take the position of a hands off child psychologist who lets their children run loose like bulls in a china shop oblivious to the effects of their behavior on others. And yes with a bit of height ashbury flower power psychobabble thrown in for effect.

[Spindrift]

I think that the tolerance level for those CTers that pop in here is too low. It's my impression that when a new one of them shows up and tries to explain why we are so wrong, the snide comments start flying. While I think that the snide comments usually are validated in time, I'm not sure we should be so quick with them.

Example: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=112400

By the 5th post in the thread a "Fail" image (which is a great image) appears and it goes downhill from there. Now in that case, I don't doubt that it would have gone downhill, I'm just questioning the speed in which we get there.

I'm also aware that from long experience that anyone who comes here declaring they are going to convince us of the truth is pretty much hopeless. However, I'd like to hold onto the hope that maybe, just maybe a few of those people could be de-truthified if we didn't almost immediate start piling on.

If we could delay the piling on and snide comments until the person has 15 posts or so, there might a chance to reach some of these people. As long as we continue to get derisive so quickly they will put up defenses, stick fingers in their ears and start saying "La, La, La" to drown us out and there is no chances of getting through to them.

[Drudgewire]

Originally Posted by Spindrift

While I think that the snide comments usually are validated in time, I'm not sure we should be so quick with them.

Example: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=112400

By the 5th post in the thread a "Fail" image (which is a great image) appears and it goes downhill from there.

Yeah, I posted the image (it is an awesome one. Hehehe). While I see what you are saying...

Originally Posted by ronpaulisright

Try to tell me how stupid they are and provide you proof of claim. I bet you can't.

He started it.

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by gumboot

Most notably, they will turn on each other at the drop of a hat...

Originally Posted by JimBenArm

Is that why we never talk anymore? >sob<

I'm gonna turn on you at the drop of a hat.




Here, mousy, mousy, mousy! Delicious cheese for you!

[JimBenArm]

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

I'm gonna turn on you at the drop of a hat.




Here, mousy, mousy, mousy! Delicious cheese for you!

I like cheese! >snap<

[ElMondoHummus]

One down, several hundred more members of the JREF "Cult" to go! Bwa-hahahaha!

Who's next?

[Drudgewire]

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

One down, several hundred more members of the JREF "Cult" to go! Bwa-hahahaha!

Who's next?

I hate to tell you, but if you're getting rid of the mice the next step up the food chain for those of us with cat avatars are the bunnies.

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

I hate to tell you, but if you're getting rid of the mice the next step up the food chain for those of us with cat avatars are the bunnies.

Here, kitty kitty kitty...

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by gumboot

I think you'll find that many people on this subforum have expressed precisely these two above points on numerous occasions.

It's quite obvious that the Bush administration had ambitions in Iraq. It's also quite obvious that 9/11 assisted in those ambitions. The problem is when people make the leap of concluding therefore that the Bush administration had something to do with 9/11 happening in the first place. This does not follow logically, and there is no a shred of evidence to support it.

That is the exact sentiment I was about to express. Since you already have let me just say 'here, here'.

I for one am also really tired of seeing "free fall speed" since it immediatly shows that the poster does not understand basic physics (the relationship between speed, distance, time and accelleration) let alone the vague "near free fall" or the ridiculous "faster than free fall".

[Drudgewire]

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

Here, kitty kitty kitty...

Puh-LEEZE. We know a threat when we see one. What do you think we are? Mice?