The "little child" proof of god

15th February 2003, 12:45 PM

As a way to reinforce my ideas I engage in healthy debate with cristians.

They gave a reason I couldn´t answer appropietly (sp?) and it was:

We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed. It is the same situation when we punish a small children for doing something hazardous to him. We know it's good for him, but from his perspective he doesnt understand why we are punishing him.

Stimpson J. Cat · 15th February 2003, 12:55 PM

gabriel,

Quote:

They gave a reason I couldn´t answer appropietly (sp?) and it was:

We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed. It is the same situation when we punish a small children for doing something hazardous to him. We know it's good for him, but from his perspective he doesnt understand why we are punishing him.

What's to answer? The above clearly isn't proof of the existence of god. It doesn't even address the issue. It assumes not only the existence of god, but also that god punishes us. It isn't "proof" of anything at all. It is nothing more than an unjustified assertion. What's more, it is an incoherent one, because it simultaneously claims that we are incapable of understanding god, and then goes on to make claims of knowledge about him.

Dr. Stupid

15th February 2003, 01:08 PM

Hi Stimpi, thanks fro answer me.

I understand your point.
This is no proof of god, but maybe what this so called "argument" actually tries to say is "there is no way we can understand god, so there is no point in discusing it". It is begining to sound to me like "the paths of god are misterious". "Shut up and believe, dont ask".
Am I right?

pgwenthold · 15th February 2003, 01:20 PM

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Originally posted by gabriel
As a way to reinforce my ideas I engage in healthy debate with cristians.

They gave a reason I couldn´t answer appropietly (sp?) and it was:

We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed. It is the same situation when we punish a small children for doing something hazardous to him. We know it's good for him, but from his perspective he doesnt understand why we are punishing him.

Of course, God, being omnipotent and omniscient, could come up with a way to teach us without resorting to such human methods.

Such a weenie god they have.

Tricky · 15th February 2003, 02:05 PM

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Originally posted by gabriel
We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed. It is the same situation when we punish a small children for doing something hazardous to him. We know it's good for him, but from his perspective he doesnt understand why we are punishing him.

Excellent responses by all, but I'd like to add one.

When a parent punishes a child, the parent usually tries to explain to the child why it is being punished (at least good[ parents do

). Admittedly, the child may not accept or understand the reasons, but usually, as the child grows and learns, he begins to understand the reasons, even if he rejects them. Also, good parents at least try to protect their child from hazards.

God, on the other, hand, gives us no clues. We have oodles of sources telling us what God thinks, but no direct word from the big guy himself. A person can study the ways of God all their life and still wind up "punished" for something he had no idea was wrong. And certainly He does nothing at all to make this a "child safe" world for his "children".

Thus the "God as a parent" scenario really portrays "God as a really bad parent".

Franko · 15th February 2003, 02:09 PM

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Of course, God, being omnipotent and omniscient, could come up with a way to teach us without resorting to such human methods.

Maybe that's the point of the little child analogy ... that regardless of how carefully god planned it, and regardless of how Omnibenevolent She actually is, we (at least some of us) were Destined to misperceive the situation, and see Her as vengeful and evil ... or perhaps as non-existent?

15th February 2003, 02:10 PM

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Originally posted by pgwenthold

Of course, God, being omnipotent and omniscient, could come up with a way to teach us without resorting to such human methods.

Such a weenie god they have.

Such a weenie god they believe they have.

Franko · 15th February 2003, 02:19 PM

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Excellent responses by all, but I'd like to add one.

When a parent punishes a child, the parent usually tries to explain to the child why it is being punished (at least good[ parents do ). Admittedly, the child may not accept or understand the reasons, but usually, as the child grows and learns, he begins to understand the reasons, even if he rejects them. Also, good parents at least try to protect their child from hazards.

All of this is True with god and people living in this universe as well.

You do realize that despite their parents best efforts, some children are just Destined to grow up and become criminals – murderers, rapists?

God does the best She can. She supplies consistent honest information. If you cannot perceive the pattern in it, that how is that Her fault?

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God, on the other, hand, gives us no clues.

Look around you.

What do you call TLOP? In my estimation TLOP qualifies as “a clue”, but maybe your perception just works differently?

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We have oodles of sources telling us what God thinks, but no direct word from the big guy himself.

What makes you assume god is a “him”?

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A person can study the ways of God all their life and still wind up "punished" for something he had no idea was wrong.

If your (15 year old) “child” urinates on the sofa while you have company over the house, and he tells you that he had no idea that urinating on the sofa was wrong, are you going to refrain from “punishing” him?

I wonder if god punishes people who claim things that they know cannot be true?

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And certainly He does nothing at all to make this a "child safe" world for his "children".

Compared to where you came from?

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Thus the "God as a parent" scenario really portrays "God as a really bad parent".

Only if you are a narrow minded, cynical, pessimistic little A-Theists with an a priori conclusion that things are always going to end up badly for you. With that kind of thinking you really shouldn’t be surprised if you actually get your wish one day.

15th February 2003, 02:51 PM

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Originally posted by Franko

God does the best She can.

Does this mean that the godess you worship is not all-powerfull?

15th February 2003, 03:05 PM

Poor example.

The better matching example for god as a daddy would be a daddy who has children and then abandons them all over some tiny imagined slight given by their older sibling.

What right has such a daddy to judge his children against his expectations for them when he was never there to make them clear?

He abandoned all stake when he abandoned them.

In the case of a "mommy", perhaps the better model might be abandoning a child in a dumpster and being disappointed in how it turned out.

Of course, the best model would be Barney the Dinosaur saying he doesn't wuv yoo, because we are just discussing the motivations of a fictional character, like Zeus and Thor and Baal and Osirus.

Franko · 15th February 2003, 06:12 PM

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gabriel:
Does this mean that the godess you worship is not all-powerfull?

I'm not sure what you mean by the term "All-Powerful" gabriel. The Logical Goddess is the Most-Powerful entity in existence, but She could not draw a 4-sided triangle (as an example).

... I think that power is reserved for the "Illogical Goddess".

Franko · 15th February 2003, 06:15 PM

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The better matching example for god as a daddy would be a daddy who has children and then abandons them all over some tiny imagined slight given by their older sibling.

What right has such a daddy to judge his children against his expectations for them when he was never there to make them clear?

He abandoned all stake when he abandoned them.

In the case of a "mommy", perhaps the better model might be abandoning a child in a dumpster and being disappointed in how it turned out.

Of course, the best model would be Barney the Dinosaur saying he doesn't wuv yoo, because we are just discussing the motivations of a fictional character, like Zeus and Thor and Baal and Osirus.

Here is an example of a "little kid" who has urinated all over the sofa, and is being punished for it, and honestly doesn't understand why he is being punished.

He may think that mommy is cruel and evil, but mommy is only going to put up with junior urinating on the sofa so many times.

Tricky · 15th February 2003, 06:35 PM

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Originally posted by Franko

Here is an example of a "little kid" who has urinated all over the sofa, and is being punished for it, and honestly doesn't understand why he is being punished.

He may think that mommy is cruel and evil, but mommy is only going to put up with junior urinating on the sofa so many times.

But in this instance, the Mommy is consistant. The child will eventually learn that urinating on the couch is something for which he will be punished.

Not so with God, or the Goddess. You can drive your car to work every day for years, and yet one day, someone else runs a red light and you are paralyzed for life. If driving a car was wrong, then why didn't the God(ess) say so the first time, or the second, or the thousandth? Inconsistant punishment is the mark of a bad parent. And why are some people punished for this behavior and others not? Does the God/Goddess love some of her children more than others?

A God or parent who punishes without reason or consistancy is simply a bad God/parent.

Franko · 15th February 2003, 06:41 PM

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But in this instance, the Mommy is consistant. The child will eventually learn that urinating on the couch is something for which he will be punished.

Not so with God, or the Goddess. You can drive your car to work every day for years, and yet one day, someone else runs a red light and you are paralyzed for life. If driving a car was wrong, then why didn't the God(ess) say so the first time, or the second, or the thousandth?

Do you remember when you were a little kid and your sister/brother wacked you upside the head with that cast iron skillet? Was that your mother’s fault? Was that an example of “inconsistent punishment/parenting” on Her part, or was that just your sister being her crazy-ass self?

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A God or parent who punishes without reason or consistancy is simply a bad God/parent.

Start blaming god for all your troubles, and the next thing you know you’ll be an A-Theist.

Tricky · 15th February 2003, 06:55 PM

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Originally posted by Franko
Do you remember when you were a little kid and your sister/brother wacked you upside the head with that cast iron skillet?

That didn't actually happen to me. Perhaps you are thinking of your own childhood. It might explain some things.

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Was that your mother’s fault? Was that an example of “inconsistent punishment/parenting” on Her part, or was that just your sister being her crazy-ass self?

See, that's the thing. Not everybody believes that everything bad that happens is "punishment". If it was The Godess forcing your sister to hit you with the frying pan for no reason, then that is a very bad goddess.

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Start blaming god for all your troubles, and the next thing you know you’ll be an A-Theist.

Yet you say Fate is responsible for everything. Welcome to the ranks of A-Theist, Franko. So far, you are the only one to fit the description.

Your punishment/reward belief can never be reconciled with the theodicy problem.

I say that many things are nobody's fault, but simply the random nature of the universe.

Franko · 15th February 2003, 11:03 PM

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That didn't actually happen to me. Perhaps you are thinking of your own childhood. It might explain some things.

Were you an only child Tricky? Did you have any brothers or sisters?

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See, that's the thing. Not everybody believes that everything bad that happens is "punishment". If it was The Godess forcing your sister to hit you with the frying pan for no reason, then that is a very bad goddess.

Yeah, but it was Your Mother that consciously decided to have your sister in the first place, and it was Your Mother that was the adult responsible for raising your sister, so if you did have a sister who ever did anything nasty to you, then clearly Your Mother was the Truly guilty party.

Isn’t that how your logic works?

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Your punishment/reward belief can never be reconciled with the theodicy problem.

Really? You willing to bet your immortal Soul on that?

If you are going to wager your Soul, why not at least wager for something that is actually beneficial on the odd chance you Win? ... or is "ceasing to exist" and no consequences for your actions what you really find beneficial?

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I say that many things are nobody's fault, but simply the random nature of the universe.

Now you are starting to sound like a Fatalist!

Still if things really are “random”, then I am going to make certain that I end up with far better luck than all of the people who really are deluded enough to believe that things are really random.

15th February 2003, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gabriel
Hi Stimpi, thanks fro answer me.

I understand your point.
This is no proof of god, but maybe what this so called "argument" actually tries to say is "there is no way we can understand god, so there is no point in discusing it". It is begining to sound to me like "the paths of god are misterious". "Shut up and believe, dont ask".
Am I right?

The argument is based on the fallacy of appeal to ignorance. Put more simply; it is not an argument, it is an implicit confession that there is no argument. They could be right, of course, but the argument is worthless as support of any position in a debate because it could be used in other forms to argue for the contrary.

16th February 2003, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

Here is an example of a "little kid" who has urinated all over the sofa, and is being punished for it, and honestly doesn't understand why he is being punished.

He may think that mommy is cruel and evil, but mommy is only going to put up with junior urinating on the sofa so many times.

Well, here is an example of a mommy who never having delivered a correction before EVER, and in face leaving her children utterly unsupervised for all their lives, shows up one day and discovers that her kids inexplicably do not behave just as she'd like.

What a moron your goddess is.

Then we have the pan example. Mommy never was there to correct her children, so they were violent, too.

As a matter of fact, we have a good biblical example of this. Adam and Eve must have learned their parenting skills from God. God only loved the BLOOD sacrifices of Able, and showed clear preference for murdering animals. Cain finally performs a proper blood sacrifice, according to God's example, and gets in trouble. Probably for not putting his brother's body on the altar for God to feast on, as opposed to burying him in the ground as he did. Waste of a perfectly good sacrifice.

Franko · 16th February 2003, 09:00 AM

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Well, here is an example of a mommy who never having delivered a correction before EVER, and in face leaving her children utterly unsupervised for all their lives, shows up one day and discovers that her kids inexplicably do not behave just as she'd like.

What a moron your goddess is.

You think this post is coming directly from me? It’s being relayed to You by the LG herself. She’s like the server, You are like a node on the server. You aren’t in direct contact with any other nodes, you are only in contact with Her. If you aren’t perceiving the reality of the situation, then that doesn’t exactly make Her the “moron”.

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Then we have the pan example. Mommy never was there to correct her children, so they were violent, too.

Maybe it’s not that God has trouble understanding morons, maybe morons have trouble understanding God?

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As a matter of fact, we have a good biblical example of this. Adam and Eve must have learned their parenting skills from God. God only loved the BLOOD sacrifices of Able, and showed clear preference for murdering animals. Cain finally performs a proper blood sacrifice, according to God's example, and gets in trouble. Probably for not putting his brother's body on the altar for God to feast on, as opposed to burying him in the ground as he did. Waste of a perfectly good sacrifice.

Actually that whole Genesis story isn’t nearly as far from the mark as you might imagine. Once the Era of Individuality began it was only a matter of Time until one Graviton annihilated another. Unless there was something inherent in reality that prevented a Graviton from being annihilated, of course that might prevent you from having Individuality in the first place …

16th February 2003, 09:08 AM

From Goddess's server to Franko's mouth? I love it.

Yahzi · 16th February 2003, 12:19 PM

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We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed

Ever notice how they follow this up by telling you all about God?

If we can't understand God, then that is it: the only comment you can make about God is that you can't make comments about him.

If his apparent acts of evil can be explained away by unknown mechanisms, then so can his apparent acts of good. If god is unknowable, we cannot know that he is good any more than we can know he is evil.

The classic preacher line... "God's plan is incomprehensible, and I'm here to tell you your part in it."

Also, the idea that we have figured out - on our own - how stars shine and grass grows seems to indicated that, unlike children or dogs, we can in fact understand pretty much anything. As long as it is understandable. Asserting that God is above our understanding is in effect asserting that he is above any possible understanding... which leads you back to wondering why people keep talking about something they have already stated cannot be meaningfully talked about.

Franko · 16th February 2003, 02:00 PM

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From Goddess's server to Franko's mouth? I love it.

Ohh, you are right evildavey, you always are.

Even Yatzi will tell you his consciousness is just an illusion, and you just know that "I" am going to end up being a figment of your imagination. The Universe is all in your head.

Loki · 16th February 2003, 02:36 PM

Franko,

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Once the Era of Individuality began ...

Ohh... the EoI! We have a new term in the lexicon - guess you've been working on your cosmology over the weekend!

Franko · 16th February 2003, 02:44 PM

Ohh Loki, I've been blathering on repititiously about the same stuff for over a year now. Just ask around.

Individuality and Relativity are two aspects of the same thing. You don't get one without the other.

Loki · 16th February 2003, 03:08 PM

Franko,

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I've been blathering on repititiously about the same stuff for over a year now...

Truth in advertising - good for you!

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Individuality and Relativity are two aspects of the same thing.

Yes, and now that 'thing' has a name - the "Era of Individuality". I'm excited...

Tricky · 16th February 2003, 03:23 PM

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Originally posted by Loki
Yes, and now that 'thing' has a name - the "Era of Individuality". I'm excited...

Me too. To quote Bill Murray from Groudhog Day, "Anything different is good."

Franko · 16th February 2003, 04:00 PM

I'm glad you two are finally showing some signs of stirring from your slumbers. I guess if this trend continues in a few months you will be claiming that you had been Fatalist all along, and that you never claimed to have “free will”?

Loki, it is to bad that you had to be reduced to one of Tricky's pathetic little toadies in the process ...

Aardvark_DK · 16th February 2003, 04:17 PM

Been reading a bit about medieval times lately, and on that note I'd like to ask you, Franko (since you keep so much in touch with God), what humanity was supposed to learn from the Black Death. What was that lesson all about? I'm just curious.

Franko · 16th February 2003, 04:28 PM

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Been reading a bit about medieval times lately, and on that note I'd like to ask you, Franko (since you keep so much in touch with God), what humanity was supposed to learn from the Black Death. What was that lesson all about? I'm just curious.

The Black Death was an undetected anti-matter generating semi-autonomous subsystem of a graviton that was brought into this universe. Here it acquired individuality and ran amok. It was a bad meme. The Master was terminated. Only some of his lesser minions remain.

metaphorically speaking ...

Tricky · 16th February 2003, 04:40 PM

Okay, getting back on topic here. (And I don't have any toadies, Franko. Okay, one, but you have never identified it correctly.)

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Originally posted by Franko
Were you an only child Tricky? Did you have any brothers or sisters?

Two brothers and two sisters. We argued a lot, but never hit each other with skillets.

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Yeah, but it was Your Mother that consciously decided to have your sister in the first place, and it was Your Mother that was the adult responsible for raising your sister, so if you did have a sister who ever did anything nasty to you, then clearly Your Mother was the Truly guilty party.

Our upbringing was influenced by a number of people, including my mother, father and others. I don't hold Mom responsible for any of the things me or my siblings did. Blame laying is a very childish thing to do. I accept responsibility for my actions. My sibllings do likewise.

Although I was occasionally punished by my parents, they never did so randomly and I was always told (at great length) why I was being punished. In fact, I dreaded a lecture more than a spanking.

"God the Parent" is not like this. He/She never explains anything. Sometimes a human will make a weak attempt to do so, but lots of times they are reduced to saying "Its God's will" in lieu of an explanation. Their God sounds like an abusive parent.

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Really? You willing to bet your immortal Soul on that?

Sure. As soon as you show me evidence that I have an immortal soul.

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If you are going to wager your Soul, why not at least wager for something that is actually beneficial on the odd chance you Win? ... or is "ceasing to exist" and no consequences for your actions what you really find beneficial?

I believe I am making the correct wager. I do not waste the only life I am sure of chasing a chimera. You, on the other hand, are betting on one conception of God. If you are wrong and the real God hates Logical Deists, well then your soul is just as much in peril as mine. Plus, you have wasted your life.

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Still if things really are “random”, then I am going to make certain that I end up with far better luck than all of the people who really are deluded enough to believe that things are really random.

Perhaps. But still a person can be lucky all their life and one bad bit of luck, like a plane crash, wipes it all out. Of course, under your worldview, all of the victims of 9/11 were being "punished".

Aardvark_DK · 16th February 2003, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
The Black Death was an undetected anti-matter generating semi-autonomous subsystem of a graviton that was brought into this universe. Here it acquired individuality and ran amok. It was a bad meme. The Master was terminated. Only some of his lesser minions remain.

Wow! Thanks! Not sure I'll ever use that in a conversation though.

Franko · 16th February 2003, 04:55 PM

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Although I was occasionally punished by my parents, they never did so randomly and I was always told (at great length) why I was being punished. In fact, I dreaded a lecture more than a spanking. "God the Parent" is not like this. He/She never explains anything. Sometimes a human will make a weak attempt to do so, but lots of times they are reduced to saying "Its God's will" in lieu of an explanation. Their God sounds like an abusive parent.

You have five senses and the Goddess is pumping information through them 16 hours out of every 24. How you can call that “never explaining anything” is beyond me?!? She has single handedly explained more to you then any entity explained in all of the eternities that you existed in prior to your arrival here. I find your utter ingratitude towards Her beyond appalling.

Your ability to resist potty training for 30 years is nothing to be proud about.

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Sure. As soon as you show me evidence that I have an immortal soul.

Actually you’re right … I doubt yours is immortal.

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I believe I am making the correct wager. I do not waste the only life I am sure of chasing a chimera. You, on the other hand, are betting on one conception of God. If you are wrong and the real God hates Logical Deists, well then your soul is just as much in peril as mine. Plus, you have wasted your life.

Since I am just following my Destiny regardless, I don’t really see as how I have that much of an option?

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Perhaps. But still a person can be lucky all their life and one bad bit of luck, like a plane crash, wipes it all out. Of course, under your worldview, all of the victims of 9/11 were being "punished".

You are too convinced that this world is the be all and end all of existence. I’m sure people arrive in the Metaverse and regret that they didn’t die years earlier.

Loki · 16th February 2003, 05:05 PM

gabriel,

One other slight reworking of the "parent/child" analogy - it's actually a "child/child/invisible parent" analogy.

When the child does "something hazardous" and needs to be taught a less, the invisible parent inflicts pain and suffering, then sends a separate child in to explain why. This gets worse, as in actual fact several children (each claiming to be in contact with a different invisible parent), surround the original child offering conflicting explanations of the hazard, the punishment, and the solution. And each child denies that any other invisible parent exists, except their own.

So, presuming one single parent actually exists, their idea of "teaching a lesson" is to :
(a) observe a child in a "hazardous situation";
(b) inflict some amount of suffering on the child;
(c) send 5 or 10 other children into the room with conflicting stories of what happened, and why.
(d) At all times, remain out of sight.

A interesting concept in education!

Tricky · 16th February 2003, 05:08 PM

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Originally posted by Franko
You have five senses and the Goddess is pumping information through them 16 hours out of every 24. How you can call that “never explaining anything” is beyond me?!? She has single handedly explained more to you then any entity explained in all of the eternities that you existed in prior to your arrival here. I find your utter ingratitude towards Her beyond appalling.

Funny, all this time "The Goddess" has been pumping this information through my senses, and She never once stopped to mention her name. How do I know it is Her pumping and not Allah or Zeus? How do I in fact know that any deity has its hand on the pump? How do you? Zoroaster may find your ingratitude towards him appalling, and send you to the abyss for it. Gods are funny that way.

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Your ability to resist potty training for 30 years is nothing to be proud about.

Practicing for the Flame War section? Bring it on, Logic man. You'll wind up less conscious than a piece of toast. But in this forum you should stick to religion and philosophy.

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Since I am just following my Destiny regardless, I don’t really see as how I have that much of an option?

And maybe you are destined for the abyss. You can't really know, since you cannot know the mind of God(ess). Your purpose for being here may be only to serve as a bad example.

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You are too convinced that this world is the be all and end all of existence. I’m sure people arrive in the Metaverse and regret that they didn’t die years earlier.

You're sure of that? My, you certainly do have a lot of "knowledge" for someone who can't master logic or science.
Okay, then lets talk about the families they left behind. What are they being punished for? You may have a hard time convincing them that they are being rewarded.

Franko · 16th February 2003, 05:18 PM

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Funny, all this time "The Goddess" has been pumping this information through my senses, and She never once stopped to mention her name. How do I know it is Her pumping and not Allah or Zeus? How do I in fact know that any deity has its hand on the pump? How do you? Zoroaster my find your ingratitude towards him appalling, and send you to the abyss for it. Gods are funny that way.

She doesn’t control how You perceive Her or Reality, Trixy. I thought you just told me that You take responsibility for how you perceive the Universe. Now it sounds like you are being a little baby and blaming the Goddess for your own shortcomings?

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And maybe you are destined for the abyss. You can't really know, since you cannot know the mind of God(ess). Your purpose for being here may be only to serve as a bad example.

heheh … you really are retarded old man.

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You're sure of that? My, you certainly do have a lot of "knowledge" for someone who can't master logic or science.

At least I’m not stupid enough to claim that I have magical “free willy” powers that I couldn’t prove if my immortal soul depended on it. At least I know not to claim that TOAST is more complex than a HUMAN BEING. At least I know what Determinism is, and that the present is based on the past, and that the past is not in flux, and at least I don’t lie at every opportunity because I have foolishly deluded myself into believing that there won’t be consequences for my actions.

You can give me lessons on “logic” when you can explain why you believe you have the ability to “choose” between available “options”.

I thought the atoms in your head obeyed the same rules that any other chemicals obey?

Loki · 16th February 2003, 05:34 PM

Franko,

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At least I know not to claim that TOAST is more complex than a HUMAN BEING.

Well, not yet - that won't happen until the Era of Toast, which follows the Era of Individuality, but doesn't start for another 9 years yet (you know, 2012, Mayan calender, all that stuff...)

Tricky · 16th February 2003, 05:39 PM

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Originally posted by Franko

She doesn’t control how You perceive Her or Reality, Trixy. I thought you just told me that You take responsibility for how you perceive the Universe.

She doesn't? She controlls all my choices but not my perceptions? Does that mean I can perceive when she is making a choice against my will, but I can't do anything about it? Sound's very much like Being John Malkovich to me.

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Now it sounds like you are being a little baby and blaming the Goddess for your own shortcomings?

How could I blame something I don't believe in? Besides, I already said I take responsibility for my own actions, since they are decided by my free will. If I could not make a choice, then I might blame the one who was making the choices, but I don't believe that to be the case.

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heheh … you really are retarded old man.

I am withered by your searing argument of logic.

Tricky · 16th February 2003, 05:45 PM

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Originally posted by Franko

She doesn’t control how You perceive Her or Reality, Trixy. I thought you just told me that You take responsibility for how you perceive the Universe.

She doesn't? She controlls all my choices but not my perceptions? Does that mean I can perceive when she is making a choice against my will, but I can't do anything about it? Sound's very much like Being John Malkovich to me.

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Now it sounds like you are being a little baby and blaming the Goddess for your own shortcomings?

How could I blame something I don't believe in? Besides, I already said I take responsibility for my own actions, since they are decided by my free will. If I could not make a choice, then I might blame the one who was making the choices, but I don't believe that to be the case.

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heheh … you really are retarded old man.

I am withered by your searing argument of logic.

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At least I’m not stupid enough to claim that I have magical “free willy” powers that I couldn’t prove if my immortal soul depended on it.

I'd have to agree that we have not established a limiting boundary for your stupidity.

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You can give me lessons on “logic” when you can explain why you believe you have the ability to “choose” between available “options”.

Because I do it every waking moment of every day. Ask me to pick a number. I can. I have free will. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, Franko.

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I thought the atoms in your head obeyed the same rules that any other chemicals obey?

Yep, including their susceptibility to be acted upon by random forces.

Franko · 16th February 2003, 06:43 PM

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She doesn't? She controlls all my choices but not my perceptions? Does that mean I can perceive when she is making a choice against my will, but I can't do anything about it? Sound's very much like Being John Malkovich to me.

Don’t think about it too hard Trixy. I wouldn’t want your carefully crafted delusions about reality to be seriously challenged. After dedicating all of those long years telling your friends and family how stupid they were for believing that “God” existed there is just no way you can afford to be wrong about this.

Quote:

Tricky:
If I could not make a choice, then I might blame the one who was making the choices, but I don't believe that to be the case.

Yeah, but it was Your Mother that consciously decided to have your sister in the first place, and it was Your Mother that was the adult responsible for raising your sister, so if you did have a sister who ever did anything nasty to you, then clearly Your Mother was the Truly guilty party.

Isn’t that how your logic works?

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Because I do it every waking moment of every day. Ask me to pick a number. I can. I have free will. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, Franko

Right … right, in the same way that The Earth is really flat and motionless because it appears flat and motionless. By the exact same logic, we have “free will” because it appears that we have “free will”. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that just because you mention “rocket scientist” at the end of your posts doesn’t make your point any less absurd.

You are a brainwashed religious fanatic who has dedicated the better part of his life in this universe to the world’s most pessimistic cult. You have already cut off your nose to spite your face, the question is how many other body parts do are you willing to lop off before you realize you are simply throwing good money after bad? Do you talk to your Wife about these conversations we have? I wonder who’s side She would be more inclined to take? I think that if you do manage to ultimately persist, it will be your woman you have to thank for it.

neutrino_cannon · 16th February 2003, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

\You are a brainwashed religious fanatic who has dedicated the better part of his life in this universe to the world’s most pessimistic cult. You have already cut off your nose to spite your face, the question is how many other body parts do are you willing to lop off before you realize you are simply throwing good money after bad? Do you talk to your Wife about these conversations we have? I wonder who’s side She would be more inclined to take? I think that if you do manage to ultimately persist, it will be your woman you have to thank for it.

Wouldn't comments like this grace the halls of the flame war section more properly? I would respond in a simmiliar manner, but discression and self-righteousness caught me.

"You are a... whao has dedicated the better part of his life ..." Are you implying that I could dedicate somebody elses life to a cause?

I don't find atheism to be depressing, and I beleive myself to be a functional member of society despite my incredulous attitude toward god.

While I don't find atheism depressing, I do find people who attack it very tiring. I also know female atheists with much the same attitude.

15th February 2003, 12:45 PM	#1
Guest Posts: n/a	The "little child" proof of god As a way to reinforce my ideas I engage in healthy debate with cristians. They gave a reason I couldn´t answer appropietly (sp?) and it was: We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed. It is the same situation when we punish a small children for doing something hazardous to him. We know it's good for him, but from his perspective he doesnt understand why we are punishing him.
Guest Posts: n/a

15th February 2003, 12:55 PM	#2
Stimpson J. Cat Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,833	gabriel, Quote: They gave a reason I couldn´t answer appropietly (sp?) and it was: We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed. It is the same situation when we punish a small children for doing something hazardous to him. We know it's good for him, but from his perspective he doesnt understand why we are punishing him. What's to answer? The above clearly isn't proof of the existence of god. It doesn't even address the issue. It assumes not only the existence of god, but also that god punishes us. It isn't "proof" of anything at all. It is nothing more than an unjustified assertion. What's more, it is an incoherent one, because it simultaneously claims that we are incapable of understanding god, and then goes on to make claims of knowledge about him. Dr. Stupid
	__________________ A poke in the eye makes Baby Jesus cry.

15th February 2003, 01:08 PM	#3
Guest Posts: n/a	Hi Stimpi, thanks fro answer me. I understand your point. This is no proof of god, but maybe what this so called "argument" actually tries to say is "there is no way we can understand god, so there is no point in discusing it". It is begining to sound to me like "the paths of god are misterious". "Shut up and believe, dont ask". Am I right?
Guest Posts: n/a

15th February 2003, 01:20 PM	#4
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,066	Re: The "little child" proof of god Quote: Originally posted by gabriel As a way to reinforce my ideas I engage in healthy debate with cristians. They gave a reason I couldn´t answer appropietly (sp?) and it was: We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed. It is the same situation when we punish a small children for doing something hazardous to him. We know it's good for him, but from his perspective he doesnt understand why we are punishing him. Of course, God, being omnipotent and omniscient, could come up with a way to teach us without resorting to such human methods. Such a weenie god they have.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

15th February 2003, 02:05 PM	#5
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Re: The "little child" proof of god Quote: Originally posted by gabriel We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed. It is the same situation when we punish a small children for doing something hazardous to him. We know it's good for him, but from his perspective he doesnt understand why we are punishing him. Excellent responses by all, but I'd like to add one. When a parent punishes a child, the parent usually tries to explain to the child why it is being punished (at least good[ parents do ). Admittedly, the child may not accept or understand the reasons, but usually, as the child grows and learns, he begins to understand the reasons, even if he rejects them. Also, good parents at least try to protect their child from hazards. God, on the other, hand, gives us no clues. We have oodles of sources telling us what God thinks, but no direct word from the big guy himself. A person can study the ways of God all their life and still wind up "punished" for something he had no idea was wrong. And certainly He does nothing at all to make this a "child safe" world for his "children". Thus the "God as a parent" scenario really portrays "God as a really bad parent".

15th February 2003, 02:09 PM	#6
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: Of course, God, being omnipotent and omniscient, could come up with a way to teach us without resorting to such human methods. Maybe that's the point of the little child analogy ... that regardless of how carefully god planned it, and regardless of how Omnibenevolent She actually is, we (at least some of us) were Destined to misperceive the situation, and see Her as vengeful and evil ... or perhaps as non-existent?
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

15th February 2003, 02:10 PM	#7
evildave Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Re: The "little child" proof of god Quote: Originally posted by pgwenthold Of course, God, being omnipotent and omniscient, could come up with a way to teach us without resorting to such human methods. Such a weenie god they have. Such a weenie god they believe they have.
evildave Guest Posts: n/a

15th February 2003, 02:19 PM	#8
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: Excellent responses by all, but I'd like to add one. When a parent punishes a child, the parent usually tries to explain to the child why it is being punished (at least good[ parents do ). Admittedly, the child may not accept or understand the reasons, but usually, as the child grows and learns, he begins to understand the reasons, even if he rejects them. Also, good parents at least try to protect their child from hazards. All of this is True with god and people living in this universe as well. You do realize that despite their parents best efforts, some children are just Destined to grow up and become criminals – murderers, rapists? God does the best She can. She supplies consistent honest information. If you cannot perceive the pattern in it, that how is that Her fault? Quote: God, on the other, hand, gives us no clues. Look around you. What do you call TLOP? In my estimation TLOP qualifies as “a clue”, but maybe your perception just works differently? Quote: We have oodles of sources telling us what God thinks, but no direct word from the big guy himself. What makes you assume god is a “him”? Quote: A person can study the ways of God all their life and still wind up "punished" for something he had no idea was wrong. If your (15 year old) “child” urinates on the sofa while you have company over the house, and he tells you that he had no idea that urinating on the sofa was wrong, are you going to refrain from “punishing” him? I wonder if god punishes people who claim things that they know cannot be true? Quote: And certainly He does nothing at all to make this a "child safe" world for his "children". Compared to where you came from? Quote: Thus the "God as a parent" scenario really portrays "God as a really bad parent". Only if you are a narrow minded, cynical, pessimistic little A-Theists with an a priori conclusion that things are always going to end up badly for you. With that kind of thinking you really shouldn’t be surprised if you actually get your wish one day.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

15th February 2003, 02:51 PM	#9
Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Franko God does the best She can. Does this mean that the godess you worship is not all-powerfull?
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15th February 2003, 03:05 PM	#10
evildave Guest Posts: n/a	Poor example. The better matching example for god as a daddy would be a daddy who has children and then abandons them all over some tiny imagined slight given by their older sibling. What right has such a daddy to judge his children against his expectations for them when he was never there to make them clear? He abandoned all stake when he abandoned them. In the case of a "mommy", perhaps the better model might be abandoning a child in a dumpster and being disappointed in how it turned out. Of course, the best model would be Barney the Dinosaur saying he doesn't wuv yoo, because we are just discussing the motivations of a fictional character, like Zeus and Thor and Baal and Osirus.
evildave Guest Posts: n/a

15th February 2003, 06:12 PM	#11
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: gabriel: Does this mean that the godess you worship is not all-powerfull? I'm not sure what you mean by the term "All-Powerful" gabriel. The Logical Goddess is the Most-Powerful entity in existence, but She could not draw a 4-sided triangle (as an example). ... I think that power is reserved for the "Illogical Goddess".
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

15th February 2003, 06:15 PM	#12
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: The better matching example for god as a daddy would be a daddy who has children and then abandons them all over some tiny imagined slight given by their older sibling. What right has such a daddy to judge his children against his expectations for them when he was never there to make them clear? He abandoned all stake when he abandoned them. In the case of a "mommy", perhaps the better model might be abandoning a child in a dumpster and being disappointed in how it turned out. Of course, the best model would be Barney the Dinosaur saying he doesn't wuv yoo, because we are just discussing the motivations of a fictional character, like Zeus and Thor and Baal and Osirus. Here is an example of a "little kid" who has urinated all over the sofa, and is being punished for it, and honestly doesn't understand why he is being punished. He may think that mommy is cruel and evil, but mommy is only going to put up with junior urinating on the sofa so many times.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

15th February 2003, 06:35 PM	#13
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Quote: Originally posted by Franko Here is an example of a "little kid" who has urinated all over the sofa, and is being punished for it, and honestly doesn't understand why he is being punished. He may think that mommy is cruel and evil, but mommy is only going to put up with junior urinating on the sofa so many times. But in this instance, the Mommy is consistant. The child will eventually learn that urinating on the couch is something for which he will be punished. Not so with God, or the Goddess. You can drive your car to work every day for years, and yet one day, someone else runs a red light and you are paralyzed for life. If driving a car was wrong, then why didn't the God(ess) say so the first time, or the second, or the thousandth? Inconsistant punishment is the mark of a bad parent. And why are some people punished for this behavior and others not? Does the God/Goddess love some of her children more than others? A God or parent who punishes without reason or consistancy is simply a bad God/parent.

15th February 2003, 06:41 PM	#14
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: But in this instance, the Mommy is consistant. The child will eventually learn that urinating on the couch is something for which he will be punished. Not so with God, or the Goddess. You can drive your car to work every day for years, and yet one day, someone else runs a red light and you are paralyzed for life. If driving a car was wrong, then why didn't the God(ess) say so the first time, or the second, or the thousandth? Do you remember when you were a little kid and your sister/brother wacked you upside the head with that cast iron skillet? Was that your mother’s fault? Was that an example of “inconsistent punishment/parenting” on Her part, or was that just your sister being her crazy-ass self? Quote: A God or parent who punishes without reason or consistancy is simply a bad God/parent. Start blaming god for all your troubles, and the next thing you know you’ll be an A-Theist.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

15th February 2003, 06:55 PM	#15
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Quote: Originally posted by Franko Do you remember when you were a little kid and your sister/brother wacked you upside the head with that cast iron skillet? That didn't actually happen to me. Perhaps you are thinking of your own childhood. It might explain some things. Quote: Was that your mother’s fault? Was that an example of “inconsistent punishment/parenting” on Her part, or was that just your sister being her crazy-ass self? See, that's the thing. Not everybody believes that everything bad that happens is "punishment". If it was The Godess forcing your sister to hit you with the frying pan for no reason, then that is a very bad goddess. Quote: Start blaming god for all your troubles, and the next thing you know you’ll be an A-Theist. Yet you say Fate is responsible for everything. Welcome to the ranks of A-Theist, Franko. So far, you are the only one to fit the description. Your punishment/reward belief can never be reconciled with the theodicy problem. I say that many things are nobody's fault, but simply the random nature of the universe.

15th February 2003, 11:03 PM	#16
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: That didn't actually happen to me. Perhaps you are thinking of your own childhood. It might explain some things. Were you an only child Tricky? Did you have any brothers or sisters? Quote: See, that's the thing. Not everybody believes that everything bad that happens is "punishment". If it was The Godess forcing your sister to hit you with the frying pan for no reason, then that is a very bad goddess. Yeah, but it was Your Mother that consciously decided to have your sister in the first place, and it was Your Mother that was the adult responsible for raising your sister, so if you did have a sister who ever did anything nasty to you, then clearly Your Mother was the Truly guilty party. Isn’t that how your logic works? Quote: Your punishment/reward belief can never be reconciled with the theodicy problem. Really? You willing to bet your immortal Soul on that? If you are going to wager your Soul, why not at least wager for something that is actually beneficial on the odd chance you Win? ... or is "ceasing to exist" and no consequences for your actions what you really find beneficial? Quote: I say that many things are nobody's fault, but simply the random nature of the universe. Now you are starting to sound like a Fatalist! Still if things really are “random”, then I am going to make certain that I end up with far better luck than all of the people who really are deluded enough to believe that things are really random.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

15th February 2003, 11:41 PM	#17
Bozotheda Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by gabriel Hi Stimpi, thanks fro answer me. I understand your point. This is no proof of god, but maybe what this so called "argument" actually tries to say is "there is no way we can understand god, so there is no point in discusing it". It is begining to sound to me like "the paths of god are misterious". "Shut up and believe, dont ask". Am I right? The argument is based on the fallacy of appeal to ignorance. Put more simply; it is not an argument, it is an implicit confession that there is no argument. They could be right, of course, but the argument is worthless as support of any position in a debate because it could be used in other forms to argue for the contrary.
Bozotheda Guest Posts: n/a

16th February 2003, 08:32 AM	#18
evildave Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Franko Here is an example of a "little kid" who has urinated all over the sofa, and is being punished for it, and honestly doesn't understand why he is being punished. He may think that mommy is cruel and evil, but mommy is only going to put up with junior urinating on the sofa so many times. Well, here is an example of a mommy who never having delivered a correction before EVER, and in face leaving her children utterly unsupervised for all their lives, shows up one day and discovers that her kids inexplicably do not behave just as she'd like. What a moron your goddess is. Then we have the pan example. Mommy never was there to correct her children, so they were violent, too. As a matter of fact, we have a good biblical example of this. Adam and Eve must have learned their parenting skills from God. God only loved the BLOOD sacrifices of Able, and showed clear preference for murdering animals. Cain finally performs a proper blood sacrifice, according to God's example, and gets in trouble. Probably for not putting his brother's body on the altar for God to feast on, as opposed to burying him in the ground as he did. Waste of a perfectly good sacrifice.
evildave Guest Posts: n/a

16th February 2003, 09:00 AM	#19
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: Well, here is an example of a mommy who never having delivered a correction before EVER, and in face leaving her children utterly unsupervised for all their lives, shows up one day and discovers that her kids inexplicably do not behave just as she'd like. What a moron your goddess is. You think this post is coming directly from me? It’s being relayed to You by the LG herself. She’s like the server, You are like a node on the server. You aren’t in direct contact with any other nodes, you are only in contact with Her. If you aren’t perceiving the reality of the situation, then that doesn’t exactly make Her the “moron”. Quote: Then we have the pan example. Mommy never was there to correct her children, so they were violent, too. Maybe it’s not that God has trouble understanding morons, maybe morons have trouble understanding God? Quote: As a matter of fact, we have a good biblical example of this. Adam and Eve must have learned their parenting skills from God. God only loved the BLOOD sacrifices of Able, and showed clear preference for murdering animals. Cain finally performs a proper blood sacrifice, according to God's example, and gets in trouble. Probably for not putting his brother's body on the altar for God to feast on, as opposed to burying him in the ground as he did. Waste of a perfectly good sacrifice. Actually that whole Genesis story isn’t nearly as far from the mark as you might imagine. Once the Era of Individuality began it was only a matter of Time until one Graviton annihilated another. Unless there was something inherent in reality that prevented a Graviton from being annihilated, of course that might prevent you from having Individuality in the first place …
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

16th February 2003, 09:08 AM	#20
evildave Guest Posts: n/a	From Goddess's server to Franko's mouth? I love it.
evildave Guest Posts: n/a

16th February 2003, 12:19 PM	#21
Yahzi Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 2,672	Quote: We can't even try to understand god because we dont have what it is needed Ever notice how they follow this up by telling you all about God? If we can't understand God, then that is it: the only comment you can make about God is that you can't make comments about him. If his apparent acts of evil can be explained away by unknown mechanisms, then so can his apparent acts of good. If god is unknowable, we cannot know that he is good any more than we can know he is evil. The classic preacher line... "God's plan is incomprehensible, and I'm here to tell you your part in it." Also, the idea that we have figured out - on our own - how stars shine and grass grows seems to indicated that, unlike children or dogs, we can in fact understand pretty much anything. As long as it is understandable. Asserting that God is above our understanding is in effect asserting that he is above any possible understanding... which leads you back to wondering why people keep talking about something they have already stated cannot be meaningfully talked about.

16th February 2003, 02:00 PM	#22
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: From Goddess's server to Franko's mouth? I love it. Ohh, you are right evildavey, you always are. Even Yatzi will tell you his consciousness is just an illusion, and you just know that "I" am going to end up being a figment of your imagination. The Universe is all in your head.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

16th February 2003, 02:36 PM	#23
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	Franko, Quote: Once the Era of Individuality began ... Ohh... the EoI! We have a new term in the lexicon - guess you've been working on your cosmology over the weekend!
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	__________________ (Red Dwarf Newsreader): Good evening. Here is the news on Friday the 27th of Geldof. Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read 'To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental'. .

16th February 2003, 02:44 PM	#24
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Ohh Loki, I've been blathering on repititiously about the same stuff for over a year now. Just ask around. Individuality and Relativity are two aspects of the same thing. You don't get one without the other.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

16th February 2003, 03:08 PM	#25
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	Franko, Quote: I've been blathering on repititiously about the same stuff for over a year now... Truth in advertising - good for you! Quote: Individuality and Relativity are two aspects of the same thing. Yes, and now that 'thing' has a name - the "Era of Individuality". I'm excited...
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	__________________ (Red Dwarf Newsreader): Good evening. Here is the news on Friday the 27th of Geldof. Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read 'To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental'. .

16th February 2003, 03:23 PM	#26
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Quote: Originally posted by Loki Yes, and now that 'thing' has a name - the "Era of Individuality". I'm excited... Me too. To quote Bill Murray from Groudhog Day, "Anything different is good."

16th February 2003, 04:00 PM	#27
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	I'm glad you two are finally showing some signs of stirring from your slumbers. I guess if this trend continues in a few months you will be claiming that you had been Fatalist all along, and that you never claimed to have “free will”? Loki, it is to bad that you had to be reduced to one of Tricky's pathetic little toadies in the process ...
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

16th February 2003, 04:17 PM	#28
Aardvark_DK Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 448	Been reading a bit about medieval times lately, and on that note I'd like to ask you, Franko (since you keep so much in touch with God), what humanity was supposed to learn from the Black Death. What was that lesson all about? I'm just curious.
	__________________ Too many DVDs \|\| "Introducing some stunning occurrence or the total impact of something completely strange and unheard of in the hope of evoking meaningless exclamations of wonder is a vulgarity which is incompatible with art created for the people" - Kim Jong-il

16th February 2003, 04:28 PM	#29
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: Been reading a bit about medieval times lately, and on that note I'd like to ask you, Franko (since you keep so much in touch with God), what humanity was supposed to learn from the Black Death. What was that lesson all about? I'm just curious. The Black Death was an undetected anti-matter generating semi-autonomous subsystem of a graviton that was brought into this universe. Here it acquired individuality and ran amok. It was a bad meme. The Master was terminated. Only some of his lesser minions remain. metaphorically speaking ...
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

16th February 2003, 04:40 PM	#30
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Okay, getting back on topic here. (And I don't have any toadies, Franko. Okay, one, but you have never identified it correctly.) Quote: Originally posted by Franko Were you an only child Tricky? Did you have any brothers or sisters? Two brothers and two sisters. We argued a lot, but never hit each other with skillets. Quote: Yeah, but it was Your Mother that consciously decided to have your sister in the first place, and it was Your Mother that was the adult responsible for raising your sister, so if you did have a sister who ever did anything nasty to you, then clearly Your Mother was the Truly guilty party. Our upbringing was influenced by a number of people, including my mother, father and others. I don't hold Mom responsible for any of the things me or my siblings did. Blame laying is a very childish thing to do. I accept responsibility for my actions. My sibllings do likewise. Although I was occasionally punished by my parents, they never did so randomly and I was always told (at great length) why I was being punished. In fact, I dreaded a lecture more than a spanking. "God the Parent" is not like this. He/She never explains anything. Sometimes a human will make a weak attempt to do so, but lots of times they are reduced to saying "Its God's will" in lieu of an explanation. Their God sounds like an abusive parent. Quote: *Really? You willing to bet your immortal Soul* on that?** Sure. As soon as you show me evidence that I have an immortal soul. Quote: If you are going to wager your Soul, why not at least wager for something that is actually beneficial on the odd chance you Win? ... or is "ceasing to exist" and no consequences for your actions what you really find beneficial? I believe I am making the correct wager. I do not waste the only life I am sure of chasing a chimera. You, on the other hand, are betting on one conception of God. If you are wrong and the real God hates Logical Deists, well then your soul is just as much in peril as mine. Plus, you have wasted your life. Quote: Still if things really are “random”, then I am going to make certain that I end up with far better luck than all of the people who really are deluded enough to believe that things are really random. Perhaps. But still a person can be lucky all their life and one bad bit of luck, like a plane crash, wipes it all out. Of course, under your worldview, all of the victims of 9/11 were being "punished".

16th February 2003, 04:55 PM	#31
Aardvark_DK Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 448	Quote: Originally posted by Franko The Black Death was an undetected anti-matter generating semi-autonomous subsystem of a graviton that was brought into this universe. Here it acquired individuality and ran amok. It was a bad meme. The Master was terminated. Only some of his lesser minions remain. Wow! Thanks! Not sure I'll ever use that in a conversation though.
	__________________ Too many DVDs \|\| "Introducing some stunning occurrence or the total impact of something completely strange and unheard of in the hope of evoking meaningless exclamations of wonder is a vulgarity which is incompatible with art created for the people" - Kim Jong-il

16th February 2003, 04:55 PM	#32
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: Although I was occasionally punished by my parents, they never did so randomly and I was always told (at great length) why I was being punished. In fact, I dreaded a lecture more than a spanking. "God the Parent" is not like this. He/She never explains anything. Sometimes a human will make a weak attempt to do so, but lots of times they are reduced to saying "Its God's will" in lieu of an explanation. Their God sounds like an abusive parent. You have five senses and the Goddess is pumping information through them 16 hours out of every 24. How you can call that “never explaining anything” is beyond me?!? She has single handedly explained more to you then any entity explained in all of the eternities that you existed in prior to your arrival here. I find your utter ingratitude towards Her beyond appalling. Your ability to resist potty training for 30 years is nothing to be proud about. Quote: Sure. As soon as you show me evidence that I have an immortal soul. Actually you’re right … I doubt yours is immortal. Quote: I believe I am making the correct wager. I do not waste the only life I am sure of chasing a chimera. You, on the other hand, are betting on one conception of God. If you are wrong and the real God hates Logical Deists, well then your soul is just as much in peril as mine. Plus, you have wasted your life. Since I am just following my Destiny regardless, I don’t really see as how I have that much of an option? Quote: Perhaps. But still a person can be lucky all their life and one bad bit of luck, like a plane crash, wipes it all out. Of course, under your worldview, all of the victims of 9/11 were being "punished". You are too convinced that this world is the be all and end all of existence. I’m sure people arrive in the Metaverse and regret that they didn’t die years earlier.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

16th February 2003, 05:05 PM	#33
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	gabriel, One other slight reworking of the "parent/child" analogy - it's actually a "child/child/invisible parent" analogy. When the child does "something hazardous" and needs to be taught a less, the invisible parent inflicts pain and suffering, then sends a separate child in to explain why. This gets worse, as in actual fact several children (each claiming to be in contact with a different invisible parent), surround the original child offering conflicting explanations of the hazard, the punishment, and the solution. And each child denies that any other invisible parent exists, except their own. So, presuming one single parent actually exists, their idea of "teaching a lesson" is to : (a) observe a child in a "hazardous situation"; (b) inflict some amount of suffering on the child; (c) send 5 or 10 other children into the room with conflicting stories of what happened, and why. (d) At all times, remain out of sight. A interesting concept in education!
Loki Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,406	__________________ (Red Dwarf Newsreader): Good evening. Here is the news on Friday the 27th of Geldof. Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read 'To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental'. .

16th February 2003, 05:08 PM	#34
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	Quote: Originally posted by Franko You have five senses and the Goddess is pumping information through them 16 hours out of every 24. How you can call that “never explaining anything” is beyond me?!? She has single handedly explained more to you then any entity explained in all of the eternities that you existed in prior to your arrival here. I find your utter ingratitude towards Her beyond appalling. Funny, all this time "The Goddess" has been pumping this information through my senses, and She never once stopped to mention her name. How do I know it is Her pumping and not Allah or Zeus? How do I in fact know that any deity has its hand on the pump? How do you? Zoroaster may find your ingratitude towards him appalling, and send you to the abyss for it. Gods are funny that way. Quote: Your ability to resist potty training for 30 years is nothing to be proud about. Practicing for the Flame War section? Bring it on, Logic man. You'll wind up less conscious than a piece of toast. But in this forum you should stick to religion and philosophy. Quote: Since I am just following my Destiny regardless, I don’t really see as how I have that much of an option? And maybe you are destined for the abyss. You can't really know, since you cannot know the mind of God(ess). Your purpose for being here may be only to serve as a bad example. Quote: You are too convinced that this world is the be all and end all of existence. I’m sure people arrive in the Metaverse and regret that they didn’t die years earlier. You're sure of that? My, you certainly do have a lot of "knowledge" for someone who can't master logic or science. Okay, then lets talk about the families they left behind. What are they being punished for? You may have a hard time convincing them that they are being rewarded.

16th February 2003, 05:18 PM	#35
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: Funny, all this time "The Goddess" has been pumping this information through my senses, and She never once stopped to mention her name. How do I know it is Her pumping and not Allah or Zeus? How do I in fact know that any deity has its hand on the pump? How do you? Zoroaster my find your ingratitude towards him appalling, and send you to the abyss for it. Gods are funny that way. She doesn’t control how You perceive Her or Reality, Trixy. I thought you just told me that You take responsibility for how you perceive the Universe. Now it sounds like you are being a little baby and blaming the Goddess for your own shortcomings? Quote: And maybe you are destined for the abyss. You can't really know, since you cannot know the mind of God(ess). Your purpose for being here may be only to serve as a bad example. heheh … you really are retarded old man. Quote: You're sure of that? My, you certainly do have a lot of "knowledge" for someone who can't master logic or science. At least I’m not stupid enough to claim that I have magical “free willy” powers that I couldn’t prove if my immortal soul depended on it. At least I know not to claim that TOAST is more complex than a HUMAN BEING. At least I know what Determinism is, and that the present is based on the past, and that the past is not in flux, and at least I don’t lie at every opportunity because I have foolishly deluded myself into believing that there won’t be consequences for my actions. You can give me lessons on “logic” when you can explain why you believe you have the ability to “choose” between available “options”. I thought the atoms in your head obeyed the same rules that any other chemicals obey?
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338