Election Fraud intimidation and murder.

peteweaver · 7th May 2008, 11:51 AM

In Zimbabwe a real conspiracy to steal an election is taking place, people are being killed by 'war veterans' and soldiers loyal to the Zanu PF party.
Villages have been threatened with destruction should they vote MDC.

This is major international news, if you look up what is going on, you can find numerous credible sources about this.

What can be done to help the people of Zimbabwe ?

Good Lt · 7th May 2008, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by peteweaver

In Zimbabwe a real conspiracy to steal an election is taking place, people are being killed by 'war veterans' and soldiers loyal to the Zanu PF party.
Villages have been threatened with destruction should they vote MDC.

This is major international news, if you look up what is going on, you can find numerous credible sources about this.

What can be done to help the people of Zimbabwe ?

Well, since it's obviously Bush's fault, simply vote for Obama.

Problem solved. No further questions needed.

/political cynic off

BenBurch · 7th May 2008, 12:09 PM

Well, I think this is what the UN was created for.

Whether or not it has the political will to do so is another matter.

defaultdotxbe · 7th May 2008, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by peteweaver

What can be done to help the people of Zimbabwe ?

Operation Zimbabwean Freedom!

Confuseling · 7th May 2008, 12:33 PM

I have a feeling this may require an African solution. Mugabe just invokes fear of colonialism every time Eurasians - but particularly us Brits, get involved. As long as South Africa are protecting him, nothing going on - unless there's a palace coup, which looked likely during the depths of the election crisis, but less so now.

I think the only thing Westerners can do is apply pressure to their politicians to apply pressure to South Africa. I know that sounds terribly impotent, but let's be honest - we're not going to invade, and any direct 'interference' plays directly into his rhetoric.

dudalb · 7th May 2008, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Well, I think this is what the UN was created for.

Whether or not it has the political will to do so is another matter.

The problem is this is pretty much an internal Zimbabwe problem,and does not pose a real threat to any other country. The UN has always been reluctant to intervene in a country's purely internal matters unless requested to by the government involved,and I don't see Mugabe making that request.
If the UN could not work up the will to intervene in the Sudan, where what was going on was a lot worse then what is going on in Zimbabwe ,it won't work up the will to intervene in Zimbabwe.
And ,to be frank, I don't think any of the member nations want to give the UN a carte blanche to intervene in a country's internal affairs.

dudalb · 7th May 2008, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by peteweaver

In Zimbabwe a real conspiracy to steal an election is taking place, people are being killed by 'war veterans' and soldiers loyal to the Zanu PF party.
Villages have been threatened with destruction should they vote MDC.

This is major international news, if you look up what is going on, you can find numerous credible sources about this.

What can be done to help the people of Zimbabwe ?

Not much, short of a full scale invasion to overthrow Mugabe,and that did not work all the well in Iraq.....

peteweaver · 7th May 2008, 03:55 PM

A full scale invasion of Zimbabwe to overthrow Mugabe would be illegal.
International law does not permit such action no matter how evil the tyrant.

If Mugabe were stocking up on WMD's and had invaded a neighbour, that would be possible grounds for an invasion, but the Iraq fiasco makes such action very very unlikely.

I think South Africa is the one country which could make the difference.

theprestige · 7th May 2008, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by peteweaver

A full scale invasion of Zimbabwe to overthrow Mugabe would be illegal.
International law does not permit such action no matter how evil the tyrant.

As an aspiring sceptic, I would very much like to see evidence to support this claim. The text of the specific "international laws" you're thinking of, as well as the duly-constituted legislative and enforcement bodies which have the necessary authority to set down and uphold these laws, for example.

Confuseling · 7th May 2008, 05:05 PM

I thought there was a mutual defence clause. If we invade without security council authorisation, Zimbabwe can request international assistance to repel us.

Quote:

Chapter I of the United Nations Charter lays out the purposes and principles of the United Nations organization. These principles include the equality and self-determination of nations and the obligation of member countries to obey the Charter, to cooperate with the UN Security Council and to use peaceful means to resolve conflicts.

Article 2, clauses 3-4 essentially prohibit war (except in self-defense) by stating, "All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations." (The right to self-defense is reaffirmed in Article 51, which states, "Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations . . ."

Article 2, clause 7 of this chapter reemphasizes the fact that only the UN Security Council has the power to force any country to do anything by stating that "Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter VII." (Only the Security Council can institute Chapter VII enforcement measures.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter...ations_Charter

moon1969 · 7th May 2008, 06:32 PM

Mugabe is nothing compared to Vladimir Putin. What can be done to stop the Chechnyan genocide? Why wont the western media or politicians talk about Chechnya and the war in Chechnya? Allso what about Nashi Putin youth attacked Estonia’s ambassador, Marina Kaljurand? What about Estonia cyber attack? Oh yeah and then there is Vladimir Putins best friend and Europes final dictator Alexander Lukashenko President of Belarus.

moon1969 · 7th May 2008, 06:38 PM

Did Vladimir Putin kill these people:

1. Anna Politkovskaya

2. Alexander Litvinenko

3. Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev

4. Yuri Shchekochikhin

5. Nikolai Khokhlov

6. Roman Tsepov

Mikhail Khodorkovsky is still in jail and the FSB did the Russian apartment bombings.

7th May 2008, 11:51 AM	#1
peteweaver Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: UK Posts: 1,005	Election Fraud intimidation and murder. In Zimbabwe a real conspiracy to steal an election is taking place, people are being killed by 'war veterans' and soldiers loyal to the Zanu PF party. Villages have been threatened with destruction should they vote MDC. This is major international news, if you look up what is going on, you can find numerous credible sources about this. What can be done to help the people of Zimbabwe ?

7th May 2008, 12:03 PM	#2
Good Lt Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Satellite of Love Posts: 1,487	Originally Posted by peteweaver In Zimbabwe a real conspiracy to steal an election is taking place, people are being killed by 'war veterans' and soldiers loyal to the Zanu PF party. Villages have been threatened with destruction should they vote MDC. This is major international news, if you look up what is going on, you can find numerous credible sources about this. What can be done to help the people of Zimbabwe ? Well, since it's obviously Bush's fault, simply vote for Obama. Problem solved. No further questions needed. /political cynic off
	__________________ Sorrowful and great is the artist's destiny. - Liszt Certainly, in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful. - Ian Faith

7th May 2008, 12:09 PM	#3
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,084	Well, I think this is what the UN was created for. Whether or not it has the political will to do so is another matter.
	__________________ Are you IN? Join the IN crowd now!

7th May 2008, 12:21 PM	#4
defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Dark Side of the Sun Posts: 7,482	Originally Posted by peteweaver What can be done to help the people of Zimbabwe ? Operation Zimbabwean Freedom!
	__________________ I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein

7th May 2008, 12:33 PM	#5
Confuseling Irreligious fanatic Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,243	I have a feeling this may require an African solution. Mugabe just invokes fear of colonialism every time Eurasians - but particularly us Brits, get involved. As long as South Africa are protecting him, nothing going on - unless there's a palace coup, which looked likely during the depths of the election crisis, but less so now. I think the only thing Westerners can do is apply pressure to their politicians to apply pressure to South Africa. I know that sounds terribly impotent, but let's be honest - we're not going to invade, and any direct 'interference' plays directly into his rhetoric.
	__________________ Drs_Res: "P.S. You have a right to free speech, but you don't have a right to be listened to." link Join my petition. Fight the vile slurp spider scourge. Harass Darat. Can you afford not to?

7th May 2008, 12:42 PM	#6
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,782	Originally Posted by BenBurch Well, I think this is what the UN was created for. Whether or not it has the political will to do so is another matter. The problem is this is pretty much an internal Zimbabwe problem,and does not pose a real threat to any other country. The UN has always been reluctant to intervene in a country's purely internal matters unless requested to by the government involved,and I don't see Mugabe making that request. If the UN could not work up the will to intervene in the Sudan, where what was going on was a lot worse then what is going on in Zimbabwe ,it won't work up the will to intervene in Zimbabwe. And ,to be frank, I don't think any of the member nations want to give the UN a carte blanche to intervene in a country's internal affairs.
	Last edited by dudalb; 7th May 2008 at 12:44 PM.

7th May 2008, 12:43 PM	#7
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,782	Originally Posted by peteweaver In Zimbabwe a real conspiracy to steal an election is taking place, people are being killed by 'war veterans' and soldiers loyal to the Zanu PF party. Villages have been threatened with destruction should they vote MDC. This is major international news, if you look up what is going on, you can find numerous credible sources about this. What can be done to help the people of Zimbabwe ? Not much, short of a full scale invasion to overthrow Mugabe,and that did not work all the well in Iraq.....

7th May 2008, 03:55 PM	#8
peteweaver Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: UK Posts: 1,005	A full scale invasion of Zimbabwe to overthrow Mugabe would be illegal. International law does not permit such action no matter how evil the tyrant. If Mugabe were stocking up on WMD's and had invaded a neighbour, that would be possible grounds for an invasion, but the Iraq fiasco makes such action very very unlikely. I think South Africa is the one country which could make the difference.

7th May 2008, 04:56 PM	#9
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,568	Originally Posted by peteweaver A full scale invasion of Zimbabwe to overthrow Mugabe would be illegal. International law does not permit such action no matter how evil the tyrant. As an aspiring sceptic, I would very much like to see evidence to support this claim. The text of the specific "international laws" you're thinking of, as well as the duly-constituted legislative and enforcement bodies which have the necessary authority to set down and uphold these laws, for example.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,568

7th May 2008, 05:05 PM	#10
Confuseling Irreligious fanatic Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,243	I thought there was a mutual defence clause. If we invade without security council authorisation, Zimbabwe can request international assistance to repel us. Quote: Chapter I of the United Nations Charter lays out the purposes and principles of the United Nations organization. These principles include the equality and self-determination of nations and the obligation of member countries to obey the Charter, to cooperate with the UN Security Council and to use peaceful means to resolve conflicts. Article 2, clauses 3-4 essentially prohibit war (except in self-defense) by stating, "All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations." (The right to self-defense is reaffirmed in Article 51, which states, "Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations . . ." Article 2, clause 7 of this chapter reemphasizes the fact that only the UN Security Council has the power to force any country to do anything by stating that "Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter VII." (Only the Security Council can institute Chapter VII enforcement measures.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter...ations_Charter
	__________________ Drs_Res: "P.S. You have a right to free speech, but you don't have a right to be listened to." link Join my petition. Fight the vile slurp spider scourge. Harass Darat. Can you afford not to? Last edited by Confuseling; 7th May 2008 at 05:06 PM.

7th May 2008, 06:32 PM	#11
moon1969 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,288	Mugabe is nothing compared to Vladimir Putin. What can be done to stop the Chechnyan genocide? Why wont the western media or politicians talk about Chechnya and the war in Chechnya? Allso what about Nashi Putin youth attacked Estonia’s ambassador, Marina Kaljurand? What about Estonia cyber attack? Oh yeah and then there is Vladimir Putins best friend and Europes final dictator Alexander Lukashenko President of Belarus.

7th May 2008, 06:38 PM	#12
moon1969 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,288	Did Vladimir Putin kill these people: 1. Anna Politkovskaya 2. Alexander Litvinenko 3. Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev 4. Yuri Shchekochikhin 5. Nikolai Khokhlov 6. Roman Tsepov Mikhail Khodorkovsky is still in jail and the FSB did the Russian apartment bombings.