derren brown's new show

andyandy · 16th May 2008, 05:18 PM

I'm surprised there has not been a thread on Britain's favourite mentalist and his new show on Channel 4. I'd be interested in the analysis of the psychology behind the episode last week where he convinces a student to electrocute a kitten through the power of negative suggestion. Now, this being Derren Brown one can never be entirely sure what trickery was in play, but it seemed to be a straightforward psychological trick.

(Hopefully discussion of psychology does not fall foul of forum rules on discussing magic tricks

)

Here through the wonders of the tube......

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I AGREE

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I AGREE

Big Les · 17th May 2008, 08:29 AM

There has been, albeit focussed on allegations of camera tricks.

If the kitten thing was a genuine psychological thing, I'm horrified by the girl's actions. She had absolutely no incentive that we were made aware of to press that button.

My vote is on a "dual reality" trick.

Michael C · 17th May 2008, 09:38 AM

Yes, it could possibly be a "dual reality" trick. Maybe Derren had suggested to the girl that something awful would happen if she didn't press the button before the clock stopped? I can only make some sense of her actions if she was in a terrible dilemma.

I think it's more likely that the whole thing was simply staged. A few reasons:

1. How much would it take to convince a kitten-loving person to actually take part in such an experience? If I was shown the set-up, I'd refuse.

2. Pressing the button at the last second is just too neat, too dramatic. It's good for narrative reasons (like the bomb that the hero always manages to defuse just a couple of seconds before the time runs out), but it doesn't make sense here.

3. The girl very quickly gets over the fact that she had just shown herself that she was capable of killing a kitten, that she obviously adores, for no apparent reason. Wouldn't it be a major shock to go through that? She just sheds a few tears before smiling, laughing and happily accepting the £500.

Big Les · 17th May 2008, 05:57 PM

Her actions make most sense if you assume Brown told her at some stage that the kitten was going to die anyway, in some horrible way. That her button press would be a mercy killing.

At first she was fine, but towards the end she started getting agitated and looked genuinely upset. The fact that she waited til last minute just means that she didn't want to be the person to kill it, but recognised that it would die with less suffering if she did.

Just one explanation. No way did this play out the way he showed.

andyandy · 18th May 2008, 04:13 PM

I was thinking the other possibility could involve the fact that deep down any intelligent person is going to know that there is no way that a cute little kitten is going to be killed by Channel 4 for the purposes of a TV show. So with that in mind, knowing that the kitten won't really die, one might be tempted to push the button just to see what would happen. So it still plays on the curiosity of the participant, but the downside, ie killing a kitten has been removed. The battle therefore is between curiosity and £500, and whilst that is a considerable amount of money, it is not so much that you wouldn't be tempted.

And if you add to that the desire that people have to " play along" and not spoil any demonstration of a man who they are already self-professed fans of, then perhaps it is not such a surprising reaction after all. That is to say anyone involved in that experiment would know that the trick that Derren Brown was trying to affect was the pushing of the button, and by the force of his personality, they may not have wanted to let him down.

Or it could just be that trickery was involved

AgeGap · 19th May 2008, 04:18 AM

I think this series is better than the last.
Tell her at the last minute that the situation has been reversed. If the counter hits zero the kitten gets it. This will cause a lot of confusion. Which of the cat killing statements is she going to believe.
Or tell her that there are ten cats in the next room that will fry if she does not kill that one. This is a bit like the thought experiment where a runaway train heading towards 10 people on a railway line. You are given the choice of flipping the points but this will kill a lone person on another line.
Orr she was hypnotised into thinking that the cat was on a plane with a gun. There can only be one outcome.

NeilC · 22nd May 2008, 11:05 AM

I liked the episode where he got that Glen guy to do well at a pub quiz "champion of champions" event. I don't buy his supposed speed-reading explanation for one second but not sure I can explain it.

The other trick that night was finding a marked coffee bean on a tray of coffee beans was impressive too.

Senex · 22nd May 2008, 11:59 AM

I agree with Big Les and dual reality but I don't aprove of this demonstration at all. Boys are the biggest demographic attracted to this type of entertainment and using the death of a pet as a method of keeping the demonstration interesting is something some stupid boy may copy. It is unethical. If the test was as it seems it is unethical to humiliate the student as being a potential kitten killer on national TV.

I had no trouble with his Russian roulette demonstration because it didn't involve puppies or kittens.

JonWhite · 22nd May 2008, 03:27 PM

Fun episode. The girl may have been convinced, but I never believed for one second that the kitten was ever in any real danger. However it was really played, I don't think we saw it either.

Still, I finally caught his "Mind Reader" show at the Garrick last Monday (which was excellent) so I'm currently feeling forgiving even of his letting the kitten off the hook.

AgeGap · 24th May 2008, 03:58 PM

I was puzzled by the child medium manacles in the latest show. So much so that I made a mock up of the trick (using three pieces of card and two pieces of string). I found it impossible to imagine the solution without the mock up. Quick and easy with.

Anyone else think this show was a bit too wooish?

andyandy · 24th May 2008, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by AgeGap

I was puzzled by the child medium manacles in the latest show. So much so that I made a mock up of the trick (using three pieces of card and two pieces of string). I found it impossible to imagine the solution without the mock up. Quick and easy with.

Anyone else think this show was a bit too wooish?

The show wasn't his best, lots of filler and a pretty anticlimactic ending. Must try harder!

AgeGap · 25th May 2008, 04:05 AM

Agree with the anti-climax. The water that DB was looking down on was VERY still. I was surprised that there were no bubbles coming to the surface from air caught within the sack.
Just off the top of my head, a better ending would be Derren waiting, then a shrug and he walks off. Roll credits then the girls head breaks the water.

Big Les · 26th May 2008, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Senex

I agree with Big Les and dual reality but I don't aprove of this demonstration at all. Boys are the biggest demographic attracted to this type of entertainment and using the death of a pet as a method of keeping the demonstration interesting is something some stupid boy may copy. It is unethical. If the test was as it seems it is unethical to humiliate the student as being a potential kitten killer on national TV.

I had no trouble with his Russian roulette demonstration because it didn't involve puppies or kittens.

Dual reality, gotcha

cj419666 · 28th May 2008, 06:30 PM

cool beans

andyandy · 6th June 2008, 05:55 PM

An excellent last episode to finish the series. I spotted the link to Skinner's pigeons as the task started - especially because he mentions the experiment in his book....... I wonder if want to be participants are screened so that they haven't read a copy?

A couple of good tricks as well, both with the dart at a pack of cards, and the lottery number....

Big Les · 6th June 2008, 06:25 PM

Really enjoyed it as well - very educational re superstitious thinking, but lots of trickery too. Poor David Tennant knew something was up by the end, bless 'im.

AgeGap · 7th June 2008, 04:22 AM

Re the lottery number. Very similar to the horse racing pundits trick in The System. Cracking though.

Anyone watch Peep Show afterwards? Pure gold!

volatile · 7th June 2008, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by AgeGap

Anyone else think this show was a bit too wooish?

It certainly feels that way. Now, I know we don't expect other magicians to telegraph their work with "it's just a trick" disclaimers, but when you have things like the speed-reading in Episode 1, the debunking of which Derren devotes a section of his book to, it leaves me feeling a little uncomfortable that he leaves it unremarked.

I am a massive Derren fan, don't get me wrong, but I think the tone of this series is a little wrong when compared to his other work.

Nucular · 14th June 2008, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by volatile

It certainly feels that way. Now, I know we don't expect other magicians to telegraph their work with "it's just a trick" disclaimers, but when you have things like the speed-reading in Episode 1, the debunking of which Derren devotes a section of his book to, it leaves me feeling a little uncomfortable that he leaves it unremarked.

I am a massive Derren fan, don't get me wrong, but I think the tone of this series is a little wrong when compared to his other work.

I have thought about that on and off through the series, but ultimately... I think actually it boils down to Derren not patronising us. I mean, how much do you have to do? Write it in a book chapter, preface every show with the 'magic, showmanship' etc. disclaimer, argue against supernatural and superhuman claims in almost every given interview, those two weeks at "I'm a magician not a demon" camp he paid for us all to go on... people left with a sense that this is all totally on the level after all of that are, frankly, either intellectually unable to grasp the issues anyway, or are intentionally believing what they want to believe, which they will do no matter how many times you clout them with Tricks of the Mind.

Nucular · 14th June 2008, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by AgeGap

Anyone watch Peep Show afterwards? Pure gold!

Oh God yes.

"Sperm is a bit like lending someone less than a fiver - you really can't ask for it back"

AgeGap · 14th June 2008, 11:55 AM

I would be happier if the disclaimer was still there. I think. Although there are disclaimers on loads of TV adverts now. Nucular did make a fair point but I will disregard it because of his disturbing avatar.
Bit of a long shot-Just imagine someone watched his show was pushed to believing in the paranormal and joined a Heavans Gate type cult. You goona tell their parents Nucular. No. Thats OK I will tell them.
Bring back the disclaimer.

Dan Hemmens · 7th August 2008, 06:27 AM

Not sure if it'll be of that much interest to folks around here, but after getting into an enormous argument over whether the Cat thing was real or not I put together a fairly hefty article about the whole thing which addresses some of the points people have raised here (do a google search for "ferretbrain" and it should be on the front page if you're interested).

Just out of interest, what's a "dual reality" trick? I'm assuming it's a situation where the subject is working off different assumptions to the audience?

volatile · 7th August 2008, 07:19 AM

http://ferretbrain.com/articles/article-303.html

Full link.

volatile · 7th August 2008, 07:34 AM

Oh, and as for what "dual reality" means, you hit on it in your article:

"The only explanation I can give for this is that Derren Brown explained the demonstration to her before she came into the room, and that the explanation he gave to her was something completely different to what he gave the audience. Whatever he told her, it must have been something to do with the cat, because that's what all her focus is on."

The participant and the audience (or indeed multiple participants in the same trick) are perceiving the trick in different ways.

Dan Hemmens · 7th August 2008, 08:06 AM

Thanks, I pretty much figured it'd be something like that, I was just wondering if it was something more technical (when it comes to magic I'm an interested outsider).

joshin · 30th September 2008, 10:27 AM

Derren has two books from the nineties (absolute magic & pure effect) where many of the techniques for the effects being discussed here are revealed. Very very interesting reads, recommend them both highly if you really have an interest in his art.

17th May 2008, 08:29 AM	#2
Big Les Not so much a medium as a large Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,661	There has been, albeit focussed on allegations of camera tricks. If the kitten thing was a genuine psychological thing, I'm horrified by the girl's actions. She had absolutely no incentive that we were made aware of to press that button. My vote is on a "dual reality" trick.
	__________________ "One of the fundamental freedoms is to write what you like, including nonsense: another, which I am exercising, is to denounce it." -Robert Raikes bshistorian.wordpress.com

17th May 2008, 05:57 PM	#4
Big Les Not so much a medium as a large Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,661	Her actions make most sense if you assume Brown told her at some stage that the kitten was going to die anyway, in some horrible way. That her button press would be a mercy killing. At first she was fine, but towards the end she started getting agitated and looked genuinely upset. The fact that she waited til last minute just means that she didn't want to be the person to kill it, but recognised that it would die with less suffering if she did. Just one explanation. No way did this play out the way he showed.
	__________________ "One of the fundamental freedoms is to write what you like, including nonsense: another, which I am exercising, is to denounce it." -Robert Raikes bshistorian.wordpress.com

19th May 2008, 04:18 AM	#6
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804	I think this series is better than the last. Tell her at the last minute that the situation has been reversed. If the counter hits zero the kitten gets it. This will cause a lot of confusion. Which of the cat killing statements is she going to believe. Or tell her that there are ten cats in the next room that will fry if she does not kill that one. This is a bit like the thought experiment where a runaway train heading towards 10 people on a railway line. You are given the choice of flipping the points but this will kill a lone person on another line. Orr she was hypnotised into thinking that the cat was on a plane with a gun. There can only be one outcome.
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804

22nd May 2008, 11:59 AM	#8
Senex Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: An autobody repair shop in Connecticut Posts: 1,835	I agree with Big Les and dual reality but I don't aprove of this demonstration at all. Boys are the biggest demographic attracted to this type of entertainment and using the death of a pet as a method of keeping the demonstration interesting is something some stupid boy may copy. It is unethical. If the test was as it seems it is unethical to humiliate the student as being a potential kitten killer on national TV. I had no trouble with his Russian roulette demonstration because it didn't involve puppies or kittens.
	__________________ I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people. Mark Twain

22nd May 2008, 03:27 PM	#9
JonWhite Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: London Posts: 603	Fun episode. The girl may have been convinced, but I never believed for one second that the kitten was ever in any real danger. However it was really played, I don't think we saw it either. Still, I finally caught his "Mind Reader" show at the Garrick last Monday (which was excellent) so I'm currently feeling forgiving even of his letting the kitten off the hook.
	__________________ "In cases where prior knowledge is available, the alternative to 'an open mind' is not 'a closed mind'. It is 'an informed mind'. In such contexts, any appeal to 'keep an open mind' is an appeal to prefer ignorance over knowledge" Ian Rowland

17th May 2008, 09:38 AM	#3
Michael C Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: N 49° 29.5 E 008° 28.2 Posts: 1,561	Yes, it could possibly be a "dual reality" trick. Maybe Derren had suggested to the girl that something awful would happen if she didn't press the button before the clock stopped? I can only make some sense of her actions if she was in a terrible dilemma. I think it's more likely that the whole thing was simply staged. A few reasons: 1. How much would it take to convince a kitten-loving person to actually take part in such an experience? If I was shown the set-up, I'd refuse. 2. Pressing the button at the last second is just too neat, too dramatic. It's good for narrative reasons (like the bomb that the hero always manages to defuse just a couple of seconds before the time runs out), but it doesn't make sense here. 3. The girl very quickly gets over the fact that she had just shown herself that she was capable of killing a kitten, that she obviously adores, for no apparent reason. Wouldn't it be a major shock to go through that? She just sheds a few tears before smiling, laughing and happily accepting the £500.

18th May 2008, 04:13 PM	#5
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 5,952	I was thinking the other possibility could involve the fact that deep down any intelligent person is going to know that there is no way that a cute little kitten is going to be killed by Channel 4 for the purposes of a TV show. So with that in mind, knowing that the kitten won't really die, one might be tempted to push the button just to see what would happen. So it still plays on the curiosity of the participant, but the downside, ie killing a kitten has been removed. The battle therefore is between curiosity and £500, and whilst that is a considerable amount of money, it is not so much that you wouldn't be tempted. And if you add to that the desire that people have to " play along" and not spoil any demonstration of a man who they are already self-professed fans of, then perhaps it is not such a surprising reaction after all. That is to say anyone involved in that experiment would know that the trick that Derren Brown was trying to affect was the pushing of the button, and by the force of his personality, they may not have wanted to let him down. Or it could just be that trickery was involved

22nd May 2008, 11:05 AM	#7
NeilC Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,085	I liked the episode where he got that Glen guy to do well at a pub quiz "champion of champions" event. I don't buy his supposed speed-reading explanation for one second but not sure I can explain it. The other trick that night was finding a marked coffee bean on a tray of coffee beans was impressive too.

24th May 2008, 03:58 PM	#10
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804	I was puzzled by the child medium manacles in the latest show. So much so that I made a mock up of the trick (using three pieces of card and two pieces of string). I found it impossible to imagine the solution without the mock up. Quick and easy with. Anyone else think this show was a bit too wooish?
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804	Last edited by AgeGap; 24th May 2008 at 04:27 PM.

24th May 2008, 04:37 PM	#11
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 5,952	Originally Posted by AgeGap I was puzzled by the child medium manacles in the latest show. So much so that I made a mock up of the trick (using three pieces of card and two pieces of string). I found it impossible to imagine the solution without the mock up. Quick and easy with. Anyone else think this show was a bit too wooish? The show wasn't his best, lots of filler and a pretty anticlimactic ending. Must try harder!

25th May 2008, 04:05 AM	#12
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804	Agree with the anti-climax. The water that DB was looking down on was VERY still. I was surprised that there were no bubbles coming to the surface from air caught within the sack. Just off the top of my head, a better ending would be Derren waiting, then a shrug and he walks off. Roll credits then the girls head breaks the water.
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804

26th May 2008, 05:29 AM	#13
Big Les Not so much a medium as a large Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,661	Originally Posted by Senex I agree with Big Les and dual reality but I don't aprove of this demonstration at all. Boys are the biggest demographic attracted to this type of entertainment and using the death of a pet as a method of keeping the demonstration interesting is something some stupid boy may copy. It is unethical. If the test was as it seems it is unethical to humiliate the student as being a potential kitten killer on national TV. I had no trouble with his Russian roulette demonstration because it didn't involve puppies or kittens. Dual reality, gotcha
	__________________ "One of the fundamental freedoms is to write what you like, including nonsense: another, which I am exercising, is to denounce it." -Robert Raikes bshistorian.wordpress.com

28th May 2008, 06:30 PM	#14
cj419666 Suspended Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 13	cool beans
cj419666 Suspended Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 13

6th June 2008, 05:55 PM	#15
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 5,952	An excellent last episode to finish the series. I spotted the link to Skinner's pigeons as the task started - especially because he mentions the experiment in his book....... I wonder if want to be participants are screened so that they haven't read a copy? A couple of good tricks as well, both with the dart at a pack of cards, and the lottery number....

6th June 2008, 06:25 PM	#16
Big Les Not so much a medium as a large Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,661	Really enjoyed it as well - very educational re superstitious thinking, but lots of trickery too. Poor David Tennant knew something was up by the end, bless 'im.
	__________________ "One of the fundamental freedoms is to write what you like, including nonsense: another, which I am exercising, is to denounce it." -Robert Raikes bshistorian.wordpress.com

7th June 2008, 04:22 AM	#17
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804	Re the lottery number. Very similar to the horse racing pundits trick in The System. Cracking though. Anyone watch Peep Show afterwards? Pure gold!
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804

7th June 2008, 06:08 AM	#18
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,322	Originally Posted by AgeGap Anyone else think this show was a bit too wooish? It certainly feels that way. Now, I know we don't expect other magicians to telegraph their work with "it's just a trick" disclaimers, but when you have things like the speed-reading in Episode 1, the debunking of which Derren devotes a section of his book to, it leaves me feeling a little uncomfortable that he leaves it unremarked. I am a massive Derren fan, don't get me wrong, but I think the tone of this series is a little wrong when compared to his other work.
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'. Last edited by volatile; 7th June 2008 at 06:10 AM.

14th June 2008, 06:07 AM	#19
Nucular Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream Posts: 3,038	Originally Posted by volatile It certainly feels that way. Now, I know we don't expect other magicians to telegraph their work with "it's just a trick" disclaimers, but when you have things like the speed-reading in Episode 1, the debunking of which Derren devotes a section of his book to, it leaves me feeling a little uncomfortable that he leaves it unremarked. I am a massive Derren fan, don't get me wrong, but I think the tone of this series is a little wrong when compared to his other work. I have thought about that on and off through the series, but ultimately... I think actually it boils down to Derren not patronising us. I mean, how much do you have to do? Write it in a book chapter, preface every show with the 'magic, showmanship' etc. disclaimer, argue against supernatural and superhuman claims in almost every given interview, those two weeks at "I'm a magician not a demon" camp he paid for us all to go on... people left with a sense that this is all totally on the level after all of that are, frankly, either intellectually unable to grasp the issues anyway, or are intentionally believing what they want to believe, which they will do no matter how many times you clout them with Tricks of the Mind.
	__________________ From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis)

14th June 2008, 06:11 AM	#20
Nucular Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream Posts: 3,038	Originally Posted by AgeGap Anyone watch Peep Show afterwards? Pure gold! Oh God yes. "Sperm is a bit like lending someone less than a fiver - you really can't ask for it back"
	__________________ From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis)

14th June 2008, 11:55 AM	#21
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804	I would be happier if the disclaimer was still there. I think. Although there are disclaimers on loads of TV adverts now. Nucular did make a fair point but I will disregard it because of his disturbing avatar. Bit of a long shot-Just imagine someone watched his show was pushed to believing in the paranormal and joined a Heavans Gate type cult. You goona tell their parents Nucular. No. Thats OK I will tell them. Bring back the disclaimer.
AgeGap Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,804

7th August 2008, 06:27 AM	#22
Dan Hemmens New Blood Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2	Not sure if it'll be of that much interest to folks around here, but after getting into an enormous argument over whether the Cat thing was real or not I put together a fairly hefty article about the whole thing which addresses some of the points people have raised here (do a google search for "ferretbrain" and it should be on the front page if you're interested). Just out of interest, what's a "dual reality" trick? I'm assuming it's a situation where the subject is working off different assumptions to the audience?
Dan Hemmens New Blood Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2

7th August 2008, 07:19 AM	#23
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,322	http://ferretbrain.com/articles/article-303.html Full link.
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'.

7th August 2008, 07:34 AM	#24
volatile Scholar and a Gentleman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Uncanny Valley Posts: 6,322	Oh, and as for what "dual reality" means, you hit on it in your article: "The only explanation I can give for this is that Derren Brown explained the demonstration to her before she came into the room, and that the explanation he gave to her was something completely different to what he gave the audience. Whatever he told her, it must have been something to do with the cat, because that's what all her focus is on." The participant and the audience (or indeed multiple participants in the same trick) are perceiving the trick in different ways.
	__________________ - ""My tribe has a saying: 'If you're bleeding, look for a man with scars'" - Leela, Doctor Who 'Robots of Death'.

7th August 2008, 08:06 AM	#25
Dan Hemmens New Blood Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2	Thanks, I pretty much figured it'd be something like that, I was just wondering if it was something more technical (when it comes to magic I'm an interested outsider).
Dan Hemmens New Blood Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2

30th September 2008, 10:27 AM	#26
joshin New Blood Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2	Derren has two books from the nineties (absolute magic & pure effect) where many of the techniques for the effects being discussed here are revealed. Very very interesting reads, recommend them both highly if you really have an interest in his art.
joshin New Blood Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2