Cheney's arrival time to PEOC

[tj15]

Can someone explain the discrepency between the time Norman Mineta said Dick Cheney was in the PEOC (9:20 or so) vs. the time the 9/11 Commission said (9:58)? Thanks.

[Matthew Best]

Somebody made a mistake?

[WildCat]

It's very simple - Mineta was wrong.

[tj15]

Originally Posted by WildCat

It's very simple - Mineta was wrong.

Do you have evidence that Mineta was wrong? What was he hearing when the "young man" said the airplane was just miles away before it hit the Pentagon? Wouldn't this put Cheney in the PEOC before flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon?

[CurtC]

The "young man" account is well-supported by others in the room, all who indicate that the conversation happened about 10:15 am, except Mineta, who is a confused old man.

[twinstead]

This has been done to death. IIRC, Mineta's account differs from every other single account, and then only by the times. Any rational person would assume that Mineta was simply mistaken. Beyond any rational person, I would imagine that any skilled investigator would also know this about witness accounts.

[SDC]

How come this silly, trivial error keeps popping back to life? Is the "search" function busted?

[Rob Lister]

Originally Posted by tj15

Do you have evidence that Mineta was wrong?

What evidence would you accept?

[DGM]

Originally Posted by SDC

How come this silly, trivial error keeps popping back to life? Is the "search" function busted?

Well actually, yes it is. (I don't think that's why this keeps coming up though)

http://forums.randi.org/announcement.php?f=64

[tj15]

Originally Posted by CurtC

The "young man" account is well-supported by others in the room, all who indicate that the conversation happened about 10:15 am, except Mineta, who is a confused old man.

What airplane was Mineta talking about? Flight 93? Is he mixing stories possibly? Because he said it was flight 77.

[tj15]

Originally Posted by twinstead

This has been done to death. IIRC, Mineta's account differs from every other single account, and then only by the times. Any rational person would assume that Mineta was simply mistaken. Beyond any rational person, I would imagine that any skilled investigator would also know this about witness accounts.

Who all supports the 9:58 time?

[tj15]

Originally Posted by Rob Lister

What evidence would you accept?

I would accept other people's accounts who were with Cheney. I am not a Truther. I am just trying to gain the correct information on that situation so that I can use it when I debate Truthers. They always bring up Norman Mineta's testimony.

[CurtC]

Originally Posted by tj15

What airplane was Mineta talking about? Flight 93? Is he mixing stories possibly? Because he said it was flight 77.

Since we know from hard documentation that Cheney wasn't in the PEOC until about 10:00, and others in the room recall the conversation happening around 10:15, and we know that the FAA was notifying the Secret Service about the projected position of UAL93 even after it crashed, and this conversation happened just before the FAA notified the SS that UAL93 had in fact crashed, and it was impossible for this conversation to have been about AA77 because that had crashed more than 30 minutes before, then yes, Mineta was mixing his stories.

Have you seen the video of him speaking about it? He's clueless - he has no idea that his story, if his timing were true, would implicate the Vice President in the biggest conspiracy of all time.

[DGM]

tj15:

Some real good ammo for countering "truthers" can be had by reading the 9/11 commission report. Have you done this yet?

[tj15]

Originally Posted by CurtC

Since we know from hard documentation that Cheney wasn't in the PEOC until about 10:00, and others in the room recall the conversation happening around 10:15, and we know that the FAA was notifying the Secret Service about the projected position of UAL93 even after it crashed, and this conversation happened just before the FAA notified the SS that UAL93 had in fact crashed, and it was impossible for this conversation to have been about AA77 because that had crashed more than 30 minutes before, then yes, Mineta was mixing his stories.

Have you seen the video of him speaking about it? He's clueless - he has no idea that his story, if his timing were true, would implicate the Vice President in the biggest conspiracy of all time.

Interesting. So when the "young man" said the airplane (flight 93 it looks like) was 10 miles out, it was just a projection?

[tj15]

Originally Posted by DGM

tj15:

Some real good ammo for countering "truthers" can be had by reading the 9/11 commission report. Have you done this yet?

I haven't read the whole thing, but I know what is in it. Truthers also seem to not accept the 9/11 Commission evidence (or at least some of it). I am looking for the names of people who were in the PEOC when Cheney arrived there. Are these eyewitness accounts of when Cheney arrived at the PEOC in the 9/11 Commission?

[DGM]

Originally Posted by tj15

I haven't read the whole thing, but I know what is in it. Truthers also seem to not accept the 9/11 Commission evidence (or at least some of it). I am looking for the names of people who were in the PEOC when Cheney arrived there. Are these eyewitness accounts of when Cheney arrived at the PEOC in the 9/11 Commission?

The report does cover who was there and the watch logs. (that's where this came from, they disregarded Minetta's testimony as off on his times).

Whether "truthers" except it or not it's good reference that can be verified from many other sources.

[CptColumbo]

Must we go over this again? Is the search function not working?

[CurtC]

Originally Posted by tj15

Interesting. So when the "young man" said the airplane (flight 93 it looks like) was 10 miles out, it was just a projection?

This is off the top of my head, but I don't think that it was ever said to be "10 miles out." They were using the projected position to inform Cheney that it was 80 and 60 miles out (or similar numbers), then they found out that UAL93 had crashed. Later, sometime around 10:30, there was a helicopter around the Pentagon which was briefly identified as a potential bad-guy, and Cheney was notified that there was something five miles away.

I'd suggest reading the 9/11 Commission Report - it's available online, has a pretty interesting narrative style, and all this is covered in the very first chapter.

[SDC]

Originally Posted by CptColumbo

Must we go over this again? Is the search function not working?

See above, #9. Yep, DGM got me too.

Still and all, wouldn't it be possible to review thread titles? The Minetta thing is so, well, 2006.

[tj15]

Originally Posted by DGM

The report does cover who was there and the watch logs. (that's where this came from, they disregarded Minetta's testimony as off on his times).

Whether "truthers" except it or not it's good reference that can be verified from many other sources.

OK, I will look at it.

[tj15]

Originally Posted by CurtC

This is off the top of my head, but I don't think that it was ever said to be "10 miles out." They were using the projected position to inform Cheney that it was 80 and 60 miles out (or similar numbers), then they found out that UAL93 had crashed. Later, sometime around 10:30, there was a helicopter around the Pentagon which was briefly identified as a potential bad-guy, and Cheney was notified that there was something five miles away.

I'd suggest reading the 9/11 Commission Report - it's available online, has a pretty interesting narrative style, and all this is covered in the very first chapter.

OK, thanks for your help.

[CurtC]

Here's the relevant section from the report, http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/r...Report_Ch1.htm :

Quote:

At some time between 10:10 and 10:15, a military aide told the Vice President and others that the aircraft was 80 miles out. Vice President Cheney was asked for authority to engage the aircraft.218 His reaction was described by Scooter Libby as quick and decisive, "in about the time it takes a batter to decide to swing." The Vice President authorized fighter aircraft to engage the inbound plane. He told us he based this authorization on his earlier conversation with the President. The military aide returned a few minutes later, probably between 10:12 and 10:18, and said the aircraft was 60 miles out. He again asked for authorization to engage. The Vice President again said yes.219

At the conference room table was White House Deputy Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten. Bolten watched the exchanges and, after what he called "a quiet moment," suggested that the Vice President get in touch with the President and confirm the engage order. Bolten told us he wanted to make sure the President was told that the Vice President had executed the order. He said he had not heard any prior discussion on the subject with the President.220

The Vice President was logged calling the President at 10:18 for a two-minute conversation that obtained the confirmation. On Air Force One, the President's press secretary was taking notes; Ari Fleischer recorded that at 10:20, the President told him that he had authorized a shootdown of aircraft if necessary.221

Minutes went by and word arrived of an aircraft down in Pennsylvania. Those in the shelter wondered if the aircraft had been shot down pursuant to this authorization.222

At approximately 10:30, the shelter started receiving reports of another hijacked plane, this time only 5 to 10 miles out. Believing they had only a minute or two, the Vice President again communicated the authorization to "engage or "take out" the aircraft. At 10:33, Hadley told the air threat conference call: "I need to get word to Dick Myers that our reports are there's an inbound aircraft flying low 5 miles out. The Vice President's guidance was we need to take them out."223

Once again, there was no immediate information about the fate of the inbound aircraft. In the apt description of one witness, "It drops below the radar screen and it's just continually hovering in your imagination; you don't know where it is or what happens to it." Eventually, the shelter received word that the alleged hijacker 5 miles away had been a medevac helicopter.224

[lapman]

Mineta also states that Bush was already headed for Louisiana. The decision to do that wasn't even made until after AF 1 was already in the air at just before 10am.

[theauthor]

Mineta could NOT have been talking about United 93. The military didnt even know that was a hijack until after it crashed. He must have been talking about Flight 77, in fact he and the BBC commentator both state as fact that he was talking about Flight 77 in the BBC documentary "Clear the Skies".

[SDC]

So the BBC commentator was another witness? Why hasn't he/ she come forward and spilled the beans?

[CurtC]

Originally Posted by theauthor

Mineta could NOT have been talking about United 93. The military didnt even know that was a hijack until after it crashed.

Yes, but the military didn't know it had crashed until several minutes after that. This conversation between Cheney and the young man happened between the times that the Secret Service had been notified that 93 had been hijacked, and when the SS was notified that 93 had crashed.

[theauthor]

Originally Posted by DGM

tj15:

Some real good ammo for countering "truthers" can be had by reading the 9/11 commission report. Have you done this yet?

Isn't it fortunate that the "nutter" Jersey Girls pressed for a 911 commission so that you would have the report to hide behind.

[CptColumbo]

Originally Posted by SDC

See above, #9. Yep, DGM got me too.

Still and all, wouldn't it be possible to review thread titles? The Minetta thing is so, well, 2006.

In that case I beg your pardon.

[T.A.M.]

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...9&postcount=23
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...17&postcount=9
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...7&postcount=30

TAM

[Unchained Spirit]

Originally Posted by DGM

tj15:

Some real good ammo for countering "truthers" can be had by reading the 9/11 commission report. Have you done this yet?

Wow! Are you talking about the same report that the co-chairs said they were "set up to fail" in? They wrote a book about it. It's titled "Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission".

"In the book, Kean and Hamilton write that the commission was so frustrated with repeated misstatements by officials from The Pentagon and the Federal Aviation Administration during the investigation that it considered a separate investigation into possible obstruction of justice by Pentagon and FAA officials."

Bush appointed the members, some of whom were Fred F. Fielding - Republican, attorney and former White House Counsel & Phillip Zelikow, who reported to Karl Rove so he could authorize what was put in the report

Yeah, I'd recommend *that* report (9-11CR) to everyone seeking the truth. /sarcasm

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by theauthor

Mineta could NOT have been talking about United 93. The military didnt even know that was a hijack until after it crashed. He must have been talking about Flight 77, in fact he and the BBC commentator both state as fact that he was talking about Flight 77 in the BBC documentary "Clear the Skies".

Mineta was wrong with his timings and now you have joined him in the wrong club

77 had already crashed when they had the conversation about 10 mile out

Mineta says Mrs Cheney was in the PEOC when he arrived and that the conversation took place a few minutes after that. Problem is Mrs Cheney did not get told to go to the PEOC until after flight 77 had crashed, she was downtown at the time. mineta arrived as the White House was evacuating which was around 10:45.

Instead of wasting time on this dead duck I suggest you go and look at how lifts work so you do not embarrass yourself like you did in the Bombs in the basement thread again

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by Unchained Spirit

Wow! Are you talking about the same report that the co-chairs said they were "set up to fail" in? They wrote a book about it. It's titled "Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission".

"In the book, Kean and Hamilton write that the commission was so frustrated with repeated misstatements by officials from The Pentagon and the Federal Aviation Administration during the investigation that it considered a separate investigation into possible obstruction of justice by Pentagon and FAA officials."

Bush appointed the members, some of whom were Fred F. Fielding - Republican, attorney and former White House Counsel & Phillip Zelikow, who reported to Karl Rove so he could authorize what was put in the report

Yeah, I'd recommend *that* report (9-11CR) to everyone seeking the truth. /sarcasm

Yes the very same one that they claimed was a success.

Now stop the derail, start another thread if you have anything that you can prove is wrong in the report that would indicate an inside job.

[tj15]

Wow, interesting information on this Mineta theory. Completely debunked. Thank you everyone for the information.

[Unchained Spirit]

Originally Posted by funk de fino

Yes the very same one that they claimed was a success.

Now stop the derail, start another thread if you have anything that you can prove is wrong in the report that would indicate an inside job.

Quoting what the 2 chairmen of the commission said about it afterwards is "derailing"? Maybe you should familiarize yourself with how a conversation flows. There's no derailing, someone else brought up the 9-11CR. I merely followed up on it. Please try to follow along and keep up...

As for proving an inside job, one merely needs to look at the ignored warnings in the months prior to 9-11. You know, like the Aug 6, 2001 PDB entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack". If that isn't enough, how about the chimp telling an agent, who traveled all the way to Crawford to warn him, "ok, you've covered you ass now" .... ?

Edited by Lisa Simpson:

Edited to remove incivility.

Please keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks to argue your point.

Posted By:Lisa Simpson

[DGM]

Originally Posted by Unchained Spirit

Wow! Are you talking about the same report that the co-chairs said they were "set up to fail" in? They wrote a book about it. It's titled "Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission".

"In the book, Kean and Hamilton write that the commission was so frustrated with repeated misstatements by officials from The Pentagon and the Federal Aviation Administration during the investigation that it considered a separate investigation into possible obstruction of justice by Pentagon and FAA officials."

Bush appointed the members, some of whom were Fred F. Fielding - Republican, attorney and former White House Counsel & Phillip Zelikow, who reported to Karl Rove so he could authorize what was put in the report

Yeah, I'd recommend *that* report (9-11CR) to everyone seeking the truth. /sarcasm

Why don't you start a new thread and impress us with YOUR facts that disprove it? Until a "truther" can do that (none have) I'll stay less than impressed with your comments. OK?

[MikeW]

Originally Posted by tj15

I haven't read the whole thing, but I know what is in it. Truthers also seem to not accept the 9/11 Commission evidence (or at least some of it).

You don't need the Commission Report to tell you that Mineta's timings are out. You can figure that out something is wrong from his testimony alone:

#1, Mineta said the White House was being evacuated when he arrived, that "everyone" was running from the White House and Executive Building and moving over to Lafayette Park. No-one places this as happening prior to the Pentagon impact. The truthers point to a single CNN report saying evacuation began earlier but it wasn't early enough, it also says the scenes Mineta described only began after the Pentagon impact, and CNN appeared to abandon the idea of an early evacuation the very next day.

#2, Mineta assumed that Cheney and Bush had spoken about the shootdown order before he heard his "do the orders still stand" conversation, saying: "the president was in Florida, and I believe he was on his way to Louisiana at that point when the conversation that went on between the vice president and the president and the staff that the president had with him". But if Mineta arrived at the PEOC by 9:20 then Bush was still at the Florida school: his timeline makes no sense.

#3, We Are Change filmed Mineta a while ago and he repeated his story, seemingly adding the detail that Lynn Cheney was also in the PEOC when he arrived. But she has consistently said she arrived after the Pentagon impact, which again places Mineta later.

Add Richard Clarke's account and the activities of Jane Garvey and the case gets stronger still. Way too much more here.

[theauthor]

Originally Posted by funk de fino

Mineta was wrong with his timings and now you have joined him in the wrong club

77 had already crashed when they had the conversation about 10 mile out

Mineta says Mrs Cheney was in the PEOC when he arrived and that the conversation took place a few minutes after that. Problem is Mrs Cheney did not get told to go to the PEOC until after flight 77 had crashed, she was downtown at the time. mineta arrived as the White House was evacuating which was around 10:45.

Instead of wasting time on this dead duck I suggest you go and look at how lifts work so you do not embarrass yourself like you did in the Bombs in the basement thread again

Are you claiming that all lifts have interior and exterior doors? Think carefully before you answer....you will be embarassed if you are wrong.

[twinstead]

The fact that Mineta is even brought up is a testament that some people lack the most rudimentary investigative skills and shouldn't be allowed to investigate where they left their wallet last night much less the mass murder of 3000 people.

I predict we'll have another 100 page thread on 'pull it' again soon.

[Jonnyclueless]

Originally Posted by Unchained Spirit

Quoting what the 2 chairmen of the commission said about it afterwards is "derailing"? Maybe you should familiarize yourself with how a conversation flows. There's no derailing, someone else brought up the 9-11CR. I merely followed up on it. Please try to follow along and keep up...

As for proving an inside job, one merely needs to look at the ignored warnings in the months prior to 9-11. You know, like the Aug 6, 2001 PDB entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack". If that isn't enough, how about the chimp telling an agent, who traveled all the way to Crawford to warn him, "ok, you've covered you ass now" .... ?

Just because *you* can't read and comprehend something doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it's not true.

It most certainly IS derailing. You are using pure conjecture and speculation to try and dismiss the evidence which clearly proves Minetta was flat out wrong about his recollection of time which then destroys your little conspiracy theory.

Can you prove that everyone else BUT minetta was lying, which is the implication being made? Please show us these "facts" you so like to stick to. Show us this fact that shows the quote you were referring to includes specifically all the testimony of everyone there that day and all the phone records and the security logs.

Or perhaps you would like some quotes from people in the truth movement about the truth movement so as to dismiss all claims by anyone in the truth movement? I mean you started this childish game, do you really want to see the same tactic used against you?

And one can prove an inside job because of some vague warnings? Why don't you take the Bush administration to court on that one if you are so sure about it. Tell that to a court of law and see how far you get with that "fact".


By reading comprehension you mean using rhetoric, conjecture,, and speculation to dismiss anything that doesn't fit your pre-determined conclusion which isn't based on any facts to begin with.