Honda FCX Clarity--Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car

Olowkow · 10th June 2008, 04:13 PM

I definitely want one of these:
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

Apparently Honda is leasing these in the Santa Monica area, where they are providing refueling, for $600/month, 3 year lease. Very encouraging that someone is doing something at least on the alternative fuel front.

Giraffe107 · 10th June 2008, 05:46 PM

I'll be interested to see where this goes- I don't think hydrogen cars a necessarily a fix-all option, but this could provide a bit on a indication of how it could work in future.

Olowkow · 10th June 2008, 05:59 PM

I agree. I was kind of surprised to see it actually available. The hydrogen storage is high pressure at this point:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/11...series-produc/

Quote:

The 5,000 psi hydrogen tank is designed to withstand any impact it might see in the real world. While the first generation FCX used a two tank storage system, the new car has switched to a single-tank setup. Previously separate components like the pressure sensor, regulator and shut-off valve are now combined in one module mounted in the tank.

Range is 274 miles, top speed of 100 mph. Good looking car. Distribution of hydrogen is the problem at this time.

technoextreme · 10th June 2008, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Olowkow

Distribution of hydrogen is the problem at this time.

Nope. The fuel cell still has major problems with it as well but only engineers and scientists are really concerned about them because they are boring compared to the obvious problems. It' the first time I've picked up a textbook that basically admitted that scientists have no clue what to do about a problem. It's also the first time I've heard a professor say the same thing.

JJM · 10th June 2008, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Olowkow

{snip} Distribution of hydrogen is the problem at this time.

Production of hydrogen is a problem for all time. It is not a fuel (something that can be harvested from natural sources), it must be manufactured. That will always consume more energy than can be had from the hydrogen so-produced. There may be limited, local uses for hydrogen powered "whatever;" but it is not a solution to our energy problems.

technoextreme · 10th June 2008, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by JJM

Production of hydrogen is a problem for all time. It is not a fuel (something that can be harvested from natural sources), it must be manufactured. That will always consume more energy than can be had from the hydrogen so-produced. There may be limited, local uses for hydrogen powered "whatever;" but it is not a solution to our energy problems.

Yeah it is. We can create energy on a large scale pretty easily. We can transport it fairly easily once we fix our dam infrastructure. Storing that energy is the problem.

Olowkow · 12th June 2008, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by JJM

Production of hydrogen is a problem for all time. It is not a fuel (something that can be harvested from natural sources), it must be manufactured. That will always consume more energy than can be had from the hydrogen so-produced. There may be limited, local uses for hydrogen powered "whatever;" but it is not a solution to our energy problems.

Agreed, production is a major problem in terms of energy in vs energy out. I was just paraphrasing the article about "distribution" to get the discussion going. My opinion is that nuclear is going to be the bitter pill for the future. As for problems with the hydrogen fuel cell, I need to read more. I am not aware of these. I know more about the methanol and formic acid fuel cell problems.
ETA: Storage is a dicey problem as well. High pressure strikes me as a poor solution, liquid, out of the question, palladium, tricky. Not too many options.

technoextreme · 12th June 2008, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Olowkow

As for problems with the hydrogen fuel cell, I need to read more. I am not aware of these. I know more about the methanol and formic acid fuel cell problems.

Technically, they are all the same type of fuel cell. The proton exchange membrane fuel cell is the correct term for these fuel cells. Though using different fuels introduces new problems there are problems common to all three.

Quote:

I need to read more. I am not aware of these. I know more about the methanol and formic acid fuel cell problems.

Well one problem is the material. The PEM fuel cell needs a material that is conductive, resistant to corrosion, have strong mechanical properties, and be able to mass produced. There apparently is not a material that exists right now that can fulfill all those requirements. You can come close but an ideal material does not exist right now.

Olowkow · 12th June 2008, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by technoextreme

Technically, they are all the same type of fuel cell. The proton exchange membrane fuel cell is the correct term for these fuel cells. Though using different fuels introduces new problems there are problems common to all three.

Well one problem is the material. The PEM fuel cell needs a material that is conductive, resistant to corrosion, have strong mechanical properties, and be able to mass produced. There apparently is not a material that exists right now that can fulfill all those requirements. You can come close but an ideal material does not exist right now.

Thanks for that. I believe the methanol cell suffers from poisoning of the catalyst with CO at low temperatures. Works great at high temps, I understand. Researchers I work with have been battling this for years, trying mono layers of ruthenium or doping platinum and other catalysts. Most of what I see currently is based on formic acid, I am a told this is the fuel of choice, not sure exactly why, but it has been hinted that it is for military applications. They use a graphite block and various membranes.

10th June 2008, 04:13 PM	#1
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,811	Honda FCX Clarity--Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car I definitely want one of these: http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/ Apparently Honda is leasing these in the Santa Monica area, where they are providing refueling, for $600/month, 3 year lease. Very encouraging that someone is doing something at least on the alternative fuel front.
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,811	__________________ Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare

10th June 2008, 05:46 PM	#2
Giraffe107 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,336	I'll be interested to see where this goes- I don't think hydrogen cars a necessarily a fix-all option, but this could provide a bit on a indication of how it could work in future.
	__________________ Love is a snowmobile racing across the icy tundra that suddenly flips over, trapping you beneath. At night the ice weasels come. - Matt Groening

10th June 2008, 05:59 PM	#3
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,811	I agree. I was kind of surprised to see it actually available. The hydrogen storage is high pressure at this point: http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/11...series-produc/ Quote: The 5,000 psi hydrogen tank is designed to withstand any impact it might see in the real world. While the first generation FCX used a two tank storage system, the new car has switched to a single-tank setup. Previously separate components like the pressure sensor, regulator and shut-off valve are now combined in one module mounted in the tank. Range is 274 miles, top speed of 100 mph. Good looking car. Distribution of hydrogen is the problem at this time.
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,811	__________________ Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare

10th June 2008, 06:18 PM	#4
technoextreme Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,786	Originally Posted by Olowkow Distribution of hydrogen is the problem at this time. Nope. The fuel cell still has major problems with it as well but only engineers and scientists are really concerned about them because they are boring compared to the obvious problems. It' the first time I've picked up a textbook that basically admitted that scientists have no clue what to do about a problem. It's also the first time I've heard a professor say the same thing.
	Last edited by technoextreme; 10th June 2008 at 06:27 PM.

10th June 2008, 06:53 PM	#5
JJM Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,855	Originally Posted by Olowkow {snip} Distribution of hydrogen is the problem at this time. Production of hydrogen is a problem for all time. It is not a fuel (something that can be harvested from natural sources), it must be manufactured. That will always consume more energy than can be had from the hydrogen so-produced. There may be limited, local uses for hydrogen powered "whatever;" but it is not a solution to our energy problems.
JJM Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,855

10th June 2008, 07:10 PM	#6
technoextreme Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,786	Originally Posted by JJM Production of hydrogen is a problem for all time. It is not a fuel (something that can be harvested from natural sources), it must be manufactured. That will always consume more energy than can be had from the hydrogen so-produced. There may be limited, local uses for hydrogen powered "whatever;" but it is not a solution to our energy problems. Yeah it is. We can create energy on a large scale pretty easily. We can transport it fairly easily once we fix our dam infrastructure. Storing that energy is the problem.
	Last edited by technoextreme; 10th June 2008 at 07:19 PM.

12th June 2008, 03:22 PM	#7
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,811	Originally Posted by JJM Production of hydrogen is a problem for all time. It is not a fuel (something that can be harvested from natural sources), it must be manufactured. That will always consume more energy than can be had from the hydrogen so-produced. There may be limited, local uses for hydrogen powered "whatever;" but it is not a solution to our energy problems. Agreed, production is a major problem in terms of energy in vs energy out. I was just paraphrasing the article about "distribution" to get the discussion going. My opinion is that nuclear is going to be the bitter pill for the future. As for problems with the hydrogen fuel cell, I need to read more. I am not aware of these. I know more about the methanol and formic acid fuel cell problems. ETA: Storage is a dicey problem as well. High pressure strikes me as a poor solution, liquid, out of the question, palladium, tricky. Not too many options.
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,811	__________________ Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare Last edited by Olowkow; 12th June 2008 at 03:25 PM.

12th June 2008, 05:22 PM	#8
technoextreme Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,786	Originally Posted by Olowkow As for problems with the hydrogen fuel cell, I need to read more. I am not aware of these. I know more about the methanol and formic acid fuel cell problems. Technically, they are all the same type of fuel cell. The proton exchange membrane fuel cell is the correct term for these fuel cells. Though using different fuels introduces new problems there are problems common to all three. Quote: I need to read more. I am not aware of these. I know more about the methanol and formic acid fuel cell problems. Well one problem is the material. The PEM fuel cell needs a material that is conductive, resistant to corrosion, have strong mechanical properties, and be able to mass produced. There apparently is not a material that exists right now that can fulfill all those requirements. You can come close but an ideal material does not exist right now.
	Last edited by technoextreme; 12th June 2008 at 05:36 PM.

12th June 2008, 08:32 PM	#9
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,811	Originally Posted by technoextreme Technically, they are all the same type of fuel cell. The proton exchange membrane fuel cell is the correct term for these fuel cells. Though using different fuels introduces new problems there are problems common to all three. Well one problem is the material. The PEM fuel cell needs a material that is conductive, resistant to corrosion, have strong mechanical properties, and be able to mass produced. There apparently is not a material that exists right now that can fulfill all those requirements. You can come close but an ideal material does not exist right now. Thanks for that. I believe the methanol cell suffers from poisoning of the catalyst with CO at low temperatures. Works great at high temps, I understand. Researchers I work with have been battling this for years, trying mono layers of ruthenium or doping platinum and other catalysts. Most of what I see currently is based on formic acid, I am a told this is the fuel of choice, not sure exactly why, but it has been hinted that it is for military applications. They use a graphite block and various membranes.
Olowkow Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,811	__________________ Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie, which we ascribe to heaven. --Shakespeare