2012?

Amulus · 14th June 2008, 09:19 AM

Hello all, I am new to this forum, but not new to James Randi. I am a skeptic through and through.

Now the other day at work, a coworker starts spouting something about the end of the world in 2012, citing things lie the mayan calendar, weakening magnetic field, sun activity, etc.

I was just wondering what everyone here thinks about it, all a google search brings up is site after site of 2012 doom with no citing sources, and few names. Although each site claims to have scientific evidence and numerous scientists who support it as well.

So what does everyone here think? Real or false? Some good points?

kosai · 14th June 2008, 09:29 AM

I believe the excitement is due to it marking a changeover in the Mayan calendar. I expect it to cause about as much trouble as the end of our calendar does every December 31st. But for those end of the world types they found their next Y2K.

Ladewig · 14th June 2008, 09:32 AM

Amulus, you may want to do a search on this site. There are several 2012 threads.

Gord_in_Toronto · 14th June 2008, 10:08 AM

The date is actually a forecast of the end of the Mayan Empire. It was wrong.

Showmeproof · 14th June 2008, 10:29 AM

Weren't there "other" dates that were suppose to bring about significant changes in this world? And as you can see, nothing ever happens.

Here is a list of "predictions" just in case you want to get ready for them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012

X · 14th June 2008, 10:35 AM

Just reply you'll see him on December 13^th.

(I think the 12^th is the day it's supposed to end...)

Sunstealer · 14th June 2008, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by kosai

I believe the excitement is due to it marking a changeover in the Mayan calendar. I expect it to cause about as much trouble as the end of our calendar does every December 31st. But for those end of the world types they found their next Y2K.

And this is the best way to explain it to the woos. I had an acquaintance talk about 2012, the Mayan calendar and the end of the world so I took them through to my kitchen and pointed out the calendar and asked them to turn to 31 Dec. They did so. I then told them that because the calendar didn't have Jan 1st 2009 on it then the world would end on 31st Dec 2008. The point was made.

The only disaster to befall the world in 2012 will be the London Olympics.

Amulus · 14th June 2008, 11:26 AM

lol, sunstealer, I like your methodology! Thank you everyone, I will search the forum for more 2012 topics!

Hokulele · 14th June 2008, 11:32 AM

This might help.

http://forums.randi.org/tags/index.php/2012/

RSLancastr · 14th June 2008, 02:55 PM

Amulus, ask your coworker to sign a legal document giving you all of his money, property and possessions as of January 1st, 2013.

Pantaz · 14th June 2008, 10:05 PM

I happened across Armageddon Online recently. I thought for sure it would be a, "We're all gonna DIE!" site, but it has a number of remarkably well written articles, such as the following one regarding 2012:

http://www.armageddononline.org/Disa...the-world.html

Kaizen · 14th June 2008, 10:10 PM

I would bet money that in 2013, there will be an end-of-the-world myth floating around for sometime in the 2020's.

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure the world is still very dead from Y2K.

mayday · 14th June 2008, 11:22 PM

I think that's plumb silly.

maatorc · 14th June 2008, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Amulus

......something about the end of the world in 2012,......

The interest about 2012 is that it is thought to be the year ending a precessional cycle incorporating an alignment of the Earth to the galaxy centre through a particular star group. There is an extensive literature on the subject. Expect to see much written and television discussion of it between now and the end of 2012.

Ladewig · 15th June 2008, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by maatorc

The interest about 2012 is that it is thought to be the year ending a precessional cycle incorporating an alignment of the Earth to the galaxy centre through a particular star group. There is an extensive literature on the subject. Expect to see much written and television discussion of it between now and the end of 2012.

Why would a star group falling on a line between the Earth and the center of the galaxy be relevant in any way?

Mongrel · 15th June 2008, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Why would a star group falling on a line between the Earth and the center of the galaxy be relevant in any way?

Well, those Mayan built planet buster guns were good on the planet busting but they didn't do as well on their aiming software, you try building a working GPS and star recognition system with flint tools

patchbunny · 15th June 2008, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Amulus

Now the other day at work, a coworker starts spouting something about the end of the world in 2012, citing things lie the mayan calendar, weakening magnetic field, sun activity, etc.

Ask if you can show up at their doorstep the day before the End and load up all their stuff, seeing as they won't be needing it anymore.

No source, but ISTR some religious group in recent times loading up tons of debt before the end of the world which they then had to pay off, because, well, things didn't end.

maatorc · 15th June 2008, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Why would a star group falling on a line between the Earth and the center of the galaxy be relevant in any way?

The best way to get a take on it is to read the 'precession' literature.
It seems a particular star group is a space-time marker for Earth based observation of the limit of the precessional swing of about 25920 years.
"Hamlet's Mill" - ISBN 0-87923-215-3 discusses it in some detail.
The ancients seemed to know about, on which you may find "Homer's Secret Iliad" ISBN 0-7195-5780-1 of interest.
Astronomical science is very familiar with it.
There are many 'views' on its relevance, significance, and value: Take your pick.

Amulus · 15th June 2008, 09:11 PM

Thank you everyone, and thank you for the link to the other page. I find it farely easy to see now that the 2012 is not backed up by much scientific fact.

Ron_Tomkins · 15th June 2008, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Amulus

2012?

No.

Dancing David · 16th June 2008, 07:09 AM

It probably means that we have to extinguish all fires and wait for the priests to sacrifice the roayal victim, kindle a fire in the chest cavity and then send the torches lit for that fire throughout the realm. That is what the Aztec/Nahuatls did when the solar and lunar cycles aligned every 52 years or something.

dudalb · 16th June 2008, 02:52 PM

And as 2012 gets closer, expect y2K level idiocy.
And just to make things better, Roland Emmerich, who gave us "Day After Tommorow" and "10000 BC" is making a film about catastrophe overtaking the world in 2012. that is all we need to get the hysteria going.

If you want to despair of the basic intelligence of the Human Race:
This is the IMDB page for the 2012 movie.

Quote:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1190080/board

I see the Internet is only serving as a new way for kooks to operate.

Pantaz · 16th June 2008, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And as 2012 gets closer, expect y2K level idiocy.

Y2k hysteria at least had SOME basis in reality (two digit year in computer code).

maatorc · 16th June 2008, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And as 2012 gets closer, expect y2K level idiocy

.

Originally Posted by Pantaz

Y2k hysteria at least had SOME basis in reality (two digit year in computer code).

The likely hysteria aside, for the moment, the ancient Maya calendar calculates an end date as follows:
"The day will be 4 Ahau 3 Kankin, and it will be ruled by the Sun God, the ninth Lord of the Night. The moon will be eight days old, and it will be the third lunation in a series of six..."
In the ancient Maya calendar the 'day' in question corresponded to 23 December 2012 AD, and apparently agrees with the end date of the current precessional motion.

gambling_cruiser · 17th June 2008, 01:46 AM

And the superwise Mayans failed miserable in recognizing the end of their civilization.

Jon_Stripe · 17th June 2008, 02:48 AM

The Mayan calender was divided into periods or Katoons as I belive its pronounced and spelled. 2012 is the end of their 13th Katoon. I do not believe it to be "the end of the world" but what about "The end of the world as we know it"?

Personaly, I believe a change of some sort will come upon humanity. A change of some sort. It could be somewhat "insignificant" or it could be "big".

But don't get all worried and panicky. Life is too short.

This is my stand on the subject.

Aepervius · 17th June 2008, 04:44 AM

2012 is a year like other. Something big might happen, maybe not. But it is entirely uncorrelated to the end of the Mayan calendar Katoon or whatever their spelling was (ETA : and entirely unforeseeable). Just like the switch from 999 to 1000 and from 1999 to 2000 (or 2000 to 2001) did not show any special event except the foolishness of men into looking at numbers.

sophia8 · 17th June 2008, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by Jon_Stripe

The Mayan calender was divided into periods or Katoons as I belive its pronounced and spelled. 2012 is the end of their 13th Katoon. I do not believe it to be "the end of the world" but what about "The end of the world as we know it"?

Personaly, I believe a change of some sort will come upon humanity. A change of some sort. It could be somewhat "insignificant" or it could be "big".

But don't get all worried and panicky. Life is too short.

This is my stand on the subject.

Never heard it pronounced, but it's usually spelled Katun. It's just one of the many Mayan calendrical cycles, like the Western calender's centuries and millennia. They had much larger cycles, ones that took their calender up to millions of years, so they clearly didn't think that the 13th Katun marked The End.
And humanity changes every day, every minute, every second....
What you call "changes" is unlikely to be seen as significant - or even noticed - by more than a very small proportion of the world's population.

Jon_Stripe · 17th June 2008, 05:06 AM

Thanks for the correct spelling. People get on me about that.

True, but some changes are bigger than others. Remember, the Maya were not stupid. Look at their architecture, their knowledge of astrology and physics. They had reason for their actions. Maybe not ones Westerners would agree with but still.

Beerina · 18th June 2008, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by RSLancastr

Amulus, ask your coworker to sign a legal document giving you all of his money, property and possessions as of January 1st, 2013.

That should do it!

Reminds me of a wry observation I saw once, that nobody believes in holistic muffler repair; we know scams when we see one, so why do we fall for them in other, vital areas?

sts60 · 18th June 2008, 02:15 PM

The Mayans are still around, though they wear jeans, drive pickups, and haven't AFAIK indulged in any ritual sacrifice lately. I haven't seen anything indicating they're fretting over their calendar rolling over.

The rest is a mismash of astronomical misunderstandings and misrepresentations. There's nothing to the whole 2012 hysteria. And it certainly has been talked over before.

Safe-Keeper · 18th June 2008, 02:50 PM

I don't get why people think the Mayans are so significant either. They were an ancient, relatively advanced people with knowledge of astronomy and their calendar ended in 2012. Er... so?

I just don't get it. Honestly. I mean, even if they did think the world would end in 2012, this makes them no different than all the other nutcases who predicted apocalypse at a certain date. Boggles the mind.

Safe-Keeper · 18th June 2008, 02:51 PM

Doublepost.

Ladewig · 19th June 2008, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by maatorc

The best way to get a take on it is to read the 'precession' literature.
It seems a particular star group is a space-time marker for Earth based observation of the limit of the precessional swing of about 25920 years.
"Hamlet's Mill" - ISBN 0-87923-215-3 discusses it in some detail.
The ancients seemed to know about, on which you may find "Homer's Secret Iliad" ISBN 0-7195-5780-1 of interest.
Astronomical science is very familiar with it.

"Hamlet's Mill" proposes the theory that very ancient people knew about the Earth's precession. Even if I completely accept the theory that Mayans discovered rotational precession 26000 years ago and therefore the coming alignment in 2012 marks an anniversary of that discovery (i.e. the alignment with that particular star group has not occurred for 26000 years), I am still left with the question: so what? An alignment with that star group will not affect anything on Earth or in our solar system - it is just an alignment.

Quote:

There are many 'views' on its relevance, significance, and value: Take your pick.

You still haven't demonstrated any relevance, significance, or value beyond the obvious claim that this particular alignment has not occurred for 26000 years.

Ladewig · 19th June 2008, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by maatorc

.

The likely hysteria aside, for the moment, the ancient Maya calendar calculates an end date as follows:
"The day will be 4 Ahau 3 Kankin, and it will be ruled by the Sun God, the ninth Lord of the Night. The moon will be eight days old, and it will be the third lunation in a series of six..."
In the ancient Maya calendar the 'day' in question corresponded to 23 December 2012 AD, and apparently agrees with the end date of the current precessional motion.

You keep saying "end date" but it is not an end date. The amount of precession in 2011, 2012, and 2013 will be the same. The precession will continue well beyond 2012. From an astrometrical point of view, nothing is ending.

richardm · 19th June 2008, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by Sunstealer

I then told them that because the calendar didn't have Jan 1st 2009 on it then the world would end on 31st Dec 2008. The point was made.

This is a cunning tactic, but before trying it it would be worth checking that your calendar doesn't continue through to January 2009 - quite a lot of them do

Originally Posted by Amulus

I find it farely easy to see now that the 2012 is not backed up by much scientific fact.

Don't you think that there might have been a bit more hoo-ha in the newspapers if we only had four years to go? And I don't just mean a couple of paragraphs buried on page 13 next to the articles about a new type of cat litter, I mean front page

Originally Posted by NY Times

We're Doomed

kind of thing.

sophia8 · 19th June 2008, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by Jon_Stripe

Thanks for the correct spelling. People get on me about that.

True, but some changes are bigger than others. Remember, the Maya were not stupid. Look at their architecture, their knowledge of astrology and physics. They had reason for their actions. Maybe not ones Westerners would agree with but still.

Like sts60, says, the Mayans are still around. They undoubtedly think it's a hoot that all these crazy Westerners think they're such a wise and spiritual people - especially when those Westerners are rushing to spend their money on anything "Mayan".
There are lots of other ancient and spiritually knowledgeable races still around as well - Chinese and Native Americans (very popular as founts of ancient wisdom amongst New Agers and spiritualists on the 60s & 70s), Australian aboriginals (still regarded as highly spiritual amongst a certain type of US NuAger who has never been to Australia), all those Druid/Celt dudes (we're supposed to have worshipped pumpkins in pre-Roman times, if you believe some US NuAge writers).
Once 2012 has passed and the world has clearly not not changed, the Armageddonists and NuAgers will latch onto some other "ancient" race to exploit.

AgeGap · 19th June 2008, 03:43 AM

Is it just me or does anyone else immediately think of the Rush album 2112 when they see the number 2012. A moment of joy then bitter disappointment.

MRC_Hans · 19th June 2008, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by maatorc

The interest about 2012 is that it is thought to be the year ending a precessional cycle incorporating an alignment of the Earth to the galaxy centre through a particular star group. There is an extensive literature on the subject. Expect to see much written and television discussion of it between now and the end of 2012.

Every year ends in a precessional cycle incorporating an alignment of the earth to the galactical centre through a particular star group. All you need is to pick the right particular star group.

Hans

Irish Murdoch · 19th June 2008, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by AgeGap

Is it just me or does anyone else immediately think of the Rush album 2112 when they see the number 2012. A moment of joy then bitter disappointment.

Two helpings of bitter disappointment for me, I'm afraid!

14th June 2008, 09:19 AM	#1
Amulus New Blood Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3	2012? Hello all, I am new to this forum, but not new to James Randi. I am a skeptic through and through. Now the other day at work, a coworker starts spouting something about the end of the world in 2012, citing things lie the mayan calendar, weakening magnetic field, sun activity, etc. I was just wondering what everyone here thinks about it, all a google search brings up is site after site of 2012 doom with no citing sources, and few names. Although each site claims to have scientific evidence and numerous scientists who support it as well. So what does everyone here think? Real or false? Some good points?
Amulus New Blood Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3

14th June 2008, 09:32 AM	#3
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,961	Amulus, you may want to do a search on this site. There are several 2012 threads.
	__________________ When I see all the kooky things posted on the JREF forums, I can't help but think of Max Bialystock's lament: "They come here, they all come here, how do they find us?"

14th June 2008, 10:08 AM	#4
Gord_in_Toronto Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,172	The date is actually a forecast of the end of the Mayan Empire. It was wrong.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick Now completely free.

14th June 2008, 10:29 AM	#5
Showmeproof Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Hell, but others refer to it as NYC. Posts: 468	Weren't there "other" dates that were suppose to bring about significant changes in this world? And as you can see, nothing ever happens. Here is a list of "predictions" just in case you want to get ready for them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012
	__________________ "Chance favors the prepared mind" Louis Pasteur The skeptic does not mean him who doubts, but him who investigates or researches, as opposed to him who asserts and thinks that he has found” -Miguel de Unamuno “Great intellects are skeptical” Friedrich Nietzsche Last edited by Showmeproof; 14th June 2008 at 10:29 AM.

14th June 2008, 10:35 AM	#6
X Slide Rulez 4 Life Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Follow the scratchy sounds of a violin novice... Posts: 2,188	Just reply you'll see him on December 13^th. (I think the 12^th is the day it's supposed to end...)
	__________________ It is sad that this is necessary: Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly." Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly." Learn the difference, people!

14th June 2008, 09:29 AM	#2
kosai Recently Audited Thetan Cluster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 558	I believe the excitement is due to it marking a changeover in the Mayan calendar. I expect it to cause about as much trouble as the end of our calendar does every December 31st. But for those end of the world types they found their next Y2K.

14th June 2008, 10:41 AM	#7
Sunstealer Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 997	Originally Posted by kosai I believe the excitement is due to it marking a changeover in the Mayan calendar. I expect it to cause about as much trouble as the end of our calendar does every December 31st. But for those end of the world types they found their next Y2K. And this is the best way to explain it to the woos. I had an acquaintance talk about 2012, the Mayan calendar and the end of the world so I took them through to my kitchen and pointed out the calendar and asked them to turn to 31 Dec. They did so. I then told them that because the calendar didn't have Jan 1st 2009 on it then the world would end on 31st Dec 2008. The point was made. The only disaster to befall the world in 2012 will be the London Olympics.
Sunstealer Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 997

14th June 2008, 11:26 AM	#8
Amulus New Blood Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3	lol, sunstealer, I like your methodology! Thank you everyone, I will search the forum for more 2012 topics!
Amulus New Blood Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3

14th June 2008, 11:32 AM	#9
Hokulele Official Nemesis TLA Dictatrix Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: To be determined. Posts: 21,351	This might help. http://forums.randi.org/tags/index.php/2012/
	__________________ You, madam, do not appear to be bound by the physical laws that govern the rest of us. - JoeyDonuts You should listen to the evil one - Don't try to understand it, just experience it. - AJM8125

14th June 2008, 02:55 PM	#10
RSLancastr Philosopher www.StopSylvia.com Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Los Angeles Area Posts: 8,572	Amulus, ask your coworker to sign a legal document giving you all of his money, property and possessions as of January 1st, 2013.
	__________________ Who is "Kaz?" Read about her at www.StopKaz.com. Curious about Sylvia Browne? Read about her at www.StopSylvia.com. Ever wonder "What's the Harm?" with psychics, alternative medicine, etc?

14th June 2008, 10:05 PM	#11
Pantaz Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Van Nuys, CA Posts: 469	I happened across Armageddon Online recently. I thought for sure it would be a, "We're all gonna DIE!" site, but it has a number of remarkably well written articles, such as the following one regarding 2012: http://www.armageddononline.org/Disa...the-world.html

14th June 2008, 10:10 PM	#12
Kaizen Student Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: San Francisco Bay Area-East Bay Posts: 39	I would bet money that in 2013, there will be an end-of-the-world myth floating around for sometime in the 2020's. Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure the world is still very dead from Y2K.
	Last edited by Kaizen; 14th June 2008 at 10:11 PM.

14th June 2008, 11:22 PM	#13
mayday Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,143	I think that's plumb silly.
mayday Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,143

14th June 2008, 11:27 PM	#14
maatorc Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,434	Originally Posted by Amulus ......something about the end of the world in 2012,...... The interest about 2012 is that it is thought to be the year ending a precessional cycle incorporating an alignment of the Earth to the galaxy centre through a particular star group. There is an extensive literature on the subject. Expect to see much written and television discussion of it between now and the end of 2012.
maatorc Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,434	Last edited by maatorc; 14th June 2008 at 11:51 PM.

15th June 2008, 08:05 AM	#15
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,961	Originally Posted by maatorc The interest about 2012 is that it is thought to be the year ending a precessional cycle incorporating an alignment of the Earth to the galaxy centre through a particular star group. There is an extensive literature on the subject. Expect to see much written and television discussion of it between now and the end of 2012. Why would a star group falling on a line between the Earth and the center of the galaxy be relevant in any way?
	__________________ When I see all the kooky things posted on the JREF forums, I can't help but think of Max Bialystock's lament: "They come here, they all come here, how do they find us?"

15th June 2008, 02:40 PM	#16
Mongrel Begging for Scraps Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: 20 minutes in the future Posts: 1,371	Originally Posted by Ladewig Why would a star group falling on a line between the Earth and the center of the galaxy be relevant in any way? Well, those Mayan built planet buster guns were good on the planet busting but they didn't do as well on their aiming software, you try building a working GPS and star recognition system with flint tools
	__________________ "Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad." — George Bernard Shaw ...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer

15th June 2008, 03:29 PM	#17
patchbunny Muse Join Date: May 2004 Location: Right about... here. Posts: 661	Originally Posted by Amulus Now the other day at work, a coworker starts spouting something about the end of the world in 2012, citing things lie the mayan calendar, weakening magnetic field, sun activity, etc. Ask if you can show up at their doorstep the day before the End and load up all their stuff, seeing as they won't be needing it anymore. No source, but ISTR some religious group in recent times loading up tons of debt before the end of the world which they then had to pay off, because, well, things didn't end.
	__________________ "So, they laugh at my boner, will they? I'll show them! I'll show them how many boners the Joker can make!" -- The Joker, Batman #66

15th June 2008, 06:43 PM	#18
maatorc Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,434	Originally Posted by Ladewig Why would a star group falling on a line between the Earth and the center of the galaxy be relevant in any way? The best way to get a take on it is to read the 'precession' literature. It seems a particular star group is a space-time marker for Earth based observation of the limit of the precessional swing of about 25920 years. "Hamlet's Mill" - ISBN 0-87923-215-3 discusses it in some detail. The ancients seemed to know about, on which you may find "Homer's Secret Iliad" ISBN 0-7195-5780-1 of interest. Astronomical science is very familiar with it. There are many 'views' on its relevance, significance, and value: Take your pick.
maatorc Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,434	Last edited by maatorc; 15th June 2008 at 06:46 PM.

15th June 2008, 09:11 PM	#19
Amulus New Blood Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3	Thank you everyone, and thank you for the link to the other page. I find it farely easy to see now that the 2012 is not backed up by much scientific fact.
Amulus New Blood Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3

15th June 2008, 09:34 PM	#20
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 15,120	Originally Posted by Amulus 2012? No.

16th June 2008, 07:09 AM	#21
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 18,357	It probably means that we have to extinguish all fires and wait for the priests to sacrifice the roayal victim, kindle a fire in the chest cavity and then send the torches lit for that fire throughout the realm. That is what the Aztec/Nahuatls did when the solar and lunar cycles aligned every 52 years or something.
	__________________ Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.- Walt Kelly wow Mr.Philospher, you need some custard poured over your head mayhaps? -kittynh "Exhibit 1338A as to why the Politics forum is "where rational thought goes to die."-Carlitos

16th June 2008, 02:52 PM	#22
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 14,451	And as 2012 gets closer, expect y2K level idiocy. And just to make things better, Roland Emmerich, who gave us "Day After Tommorow" and "10000 BC" is making a film about catastrophe overtaking the world in 2012. that is all we need to get the hysteria going. If you want to despair of the basic intelligence of the Human Race: This is the IMDB page for the 2012 movie. Quote: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1190080/board I see the Internet is only serving as a new way for kooks to operate.

16th June 2008, 03:47 PM	#23
Pantaz Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Van Nuys, CA Posts: 469	Originally Posted by dudalb And as 2012 gets closer, expect y2K level idiocy. Y2k hysteria at least had SOME basis in reality (two digit year in computer code).

16th June 2008, 11:39 PM	#24
maatorc Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,434	Quote: Originally Posted by dudalb View Post And as 2012 gets closer, expect y2K level idiocy . Originally Posted by Pantaz Y2k hysteria at least had SOME basis in reality (two digit year in computer code). The likely hysteria aside, for the moment, the ancient Maya calendar calculates an end date as follows: "The day* will be 4 Ahau 3 Kankin, and it will be ruled by the Sun God, the ninth Lord of the Night. The moon will be eight days old, and it will be the third lunation in a series of six..." In the ancient Maya calendar the 'day*' in question corresponded to 23 December 2012 AD, and apparently agrees with the end date of the current precessional motion.
maatorc Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,434

17th June 2008, 01:46 AM	#25
gambling_cruiser Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 356	And the superwise Mayans failed miserable in recognizing the end of their civilization.
	Last edited by gambling_cruiser; 17th June 2008 at 01:47 AM. Reason: typo

17th June 2008, 02:48 AM	#26
Jon_Stripe Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Salem, Oregon. U.S. Posts: 131	The Mayan calender was divided into periods or Katoons as I belive its pronounced and spelled. 2012 is the end of their 13th Katoon. I do not believe it to be "the end of the world" but what about "The end of the world as we know it"? Personaly, I believe a change of some sort will come upon humanity. A change of some sort. It could be somewhat "insignificant" or it could be "big". But don't get all worried and panicky. Life is too short. This is my stand on the subject.

17th June 2008, 04:44 AM	#27
Aepervius Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,391	2012 is a year like other. Something big might happen, maybe not. But it is entirely uncorrelated to the end of the Mayan calendar Katoon or whatever their spelling was (ETA : and entirely unforeseeable). Just like the switch from 999 to 1000 and from 1999 to 2000 (or 2000 to 2001) did not show any special event except the foolishness of men into looking at numbers.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat One doesn't necessarily need evidence to back up arguments. Interresting Ian own's words. Plus that is an old skeptic game, to ask for evidence. Historian's take on skepticism

17th June 2008, 04:57 AM	#28
sophia8 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Scottishland Posts: 1,697	Originally Posted by Jon_Stripe The Mayan calender was divided into periods or Katoons as I belive its pronounced and spelled. 2012 is the end of their 13th Katoon. I do not believe it to be "the end of the world" but what about "The end of the world as we know it"? Personaly, I believe a change of some sort will come upon humanity. A change of some sort. It could be somewhat "insignificant" or it could be "big". But don't get all worried and panicky. Life is too short. This is my stand on the subject. Never heard it pronounced, but it's usually spelled Katun. It's just one of the many Mayan calendrical cycles, like the Western calender's centuries and millennia. They had much larger cycles, ones that took their calender up to millions of years, so they clearly didn't think that the 13th Katun marked The End. And humanity changes every day, every minute, every second.... What you call "changes" is unlikely to be seen as significant - or even noticed - by more than a very small proportion of the world's population.
	__________________ "The fact that time will continue after we die does not negate the time that we were alive. We are alive now, and nothing can erase that." - Greta Christina "You will find me if you want me in the garden. Unless it's pouring down with rain" - Einsturzende Neubauten

17th June 2008, 05:06 AM	#29
Jon_Stripe Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Salem, Oregon. U.S. Posts: 131	Thanks for the correct spelling. People get on me about that. True, but some changes are bigger than others. Remember, the Maya were not stupid. Look at their architecture, their knowledge of astrology and physics. They had reason for their actions. Maybe not ones Westerners would agree with but still.
	Last edited by Jon_Stripe; 17th June 2008 at 05:07 AM.

18th June 2008, 01:46 PM	#30
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 14,373	Originally Posted by RSLancastr Amulus, ask your coworker to sign a legal document giving you all of his money, property and possessions as of January 1st, 2013. That should do it! Reminds me of a wry observation I saw once, that nobody believes in holistic muffler repair; we know scams when we see one, so why do we fall for them in other, vital areas?
	__________________ Reid Fleming, World's Toughest Milkman, in *A Day Like Any Other* The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

18th June 2008, 02:15 PM	#31
sts60 Muse Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 568	The Mayans are still around, though they wear jeans, drive pickups, and haven't AFAIK indulged in any ritual sacrifice lately. I haven't seen anything indicating they're fretting over their calendar rolling over. The rest is a mismash of astronomical misunderstandings and misrepresentations. There's nothing to the whole 2012 hysteria. And it certainly has been talked over before.
sts60 Muse Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 568

18th June 2008, 02:50 PM	#32
Safe-Keeper Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 4,374	I don't get why people think the Mayans are so significant either. They were an ancient, relatively advanced people with knowledge of astronomy and their calendar ended in 2012. Er... so? I just don't get it. Honestly. I mean, even if they did think the world would end in 2012, this makes them no different than all the other nutcases who predicted apocalypse at a certain date. Boggles the mind.
	__________________ "Then my war dogs joined the fray. I have to say I'm a bit afraid of them. One of the bitches actually gave birth while she was attacking, and her puppies joined in on the carnage." --the awesomeness that is Boatmurdered Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 18th June 2008 at 02:51 PM.

18th June 2008, 02:51 PM	#33
Safe-Keeper Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 4,374	Doublepost.
	__________________ "Then my war dogs joined the fray. I have to say I'm a bit afraid of them. One of the bitches actually gave birth while she was attacking, and her puppies joined in on the carnage." --the awesomeness that is Boatmurdered Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 18th June 2008 at 02:59 PM.

19th June 2008, 02:38 AM	#34
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,961	Originally Posted by maatorc The best way to get a take on it is to read the 'precession' literature. It seems a particular star group is a space-time marker for Earth based observation of the limit of the precessional swing of about 25920 years. "Hamlet's Mill" - ISBN 0-87923-215-3 discusses it in some detail. The ancients seemed to know about, on which you may find "Homer's Secret Iliad" ISBN 0-7195-5780-1 of interest. Astronomical science is very familiar with it. "Hamlet's Mill" proposes the theory that very ancient people knew about the Earth's precession. Even if I completely accept the theory that Mayans discovered rotational precession 26000 years ago and therefore the coming alignment in 2012 marks an anniversary of that discovery (i.e. the alignment with that particular star group has not occurred for 26000 years), I am still left with the question: so what? An alignment with that star group will not affect anything on Earth or in our solar system - it is just an alignment. Quote: There are many 'views' on its relevance, significance, and value: Take your pick. You still haven't demonstrated any relevance, significance, or value beyond the obvious claim that this particular alignment has not occurred for 26000 years.
	__________________ When I see all the kooky things posted on the JREF forums, I can't help but think of Max Bialystock's lament: "They come here, they all come here, how do they find us?" Last edited by Ladewig; 19th June 2008 at 02:45 AM.

19th June 2008, 02:45 AM	#35
Ladewig Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 8,961	Originally Posted by maatorc . The likely hysteria aside, for the moment, the ancient Maya calendar calculates an end date as follows: "The day* will be 4 Ahau 3 Kankin, and it will be ruled by the Sun God, the ninth Lord of the Night. The moon will be eight days old, and it will be the third lunation in a series of six..." In the ancient Maya calendar the 'day*' in question corresponded to 23 December 2012 AD, and apparently agrees with the end date of the current precessional motion. You keep saying "end date" but it is not an end date. The amount of precession in 2011, 2012, and 2013 will be the same. The precession will continue well beyond 2012. From an astrometrical point of view, nothing is ending.
	__________________ When I see all the kooky things posted on the JREF forums, I can't help but think of Max Bialystock's lament: "They come here, they all come here, how do they find us?"