Bishop who doesn't believe in god, the church or the bible.

a_unique_person · 13th October 2003, 07:30 PM

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...917344295.html

Quote:

America’s most controversial bishop advocates dumping the Ten Commandments. John Shelby Spong talks to Barney Zwartz.

John Shelby Spong advocates a 21st century Christianity that doesn’t require people to check in their brains at the church door. In practice, what this means is abandoning "outmoded" concepts such as a traditional God, a divine Christ, prayer, and the Ten Commandments as the basis of ethics.

The controversial American bishop acknowledges this means the end of traditional Christianity, but says it is dying anyway, and no modern rational person can accept its tenets. Spong is touring Australia promoting his new book, A New Christianity for a New World, to, he says, packed and appreciative audiences. These may not contain many church-goers, but such people are not the audience the retired Bishop of Newark in New Jersey, is trying to reach.

At 72, he is still criss-crossing the world, bringing his ideas to the "church alumni association".

"I think there are two movements going on in the Christian faith today," Spong says. "One is a retreat into yesterday, into certainty and fundamentalism. It reflects the fact there is a great struggle, and they’re not winning."

More and more people don’t want to be part of that church, he says, and those are the ones he addresses. "I’m not trying to convert conservative church people, but to deal with people that conservative church people have run out of church or bored out of church."

This book is his vision of what the Christian church reformed to be in dialogue with the 21st century will look like.

Fundamentalists, his bete noire, will not recognise it. Fundamentalists were so named in the early 20th century for defending a set of five doctrines they regarded as fundamental: the inspiration of Scripture as the revealed word of God; the virgin birth as guarantee of Christ’s divine nature; salvation through his death; his physical resurrection; and his eventual second coming. To Spong, these are not just naive but eminently rejectable.

He goes further. God is not a being, and does not interact with the world. And with this centre gone, the rest of the traditional Christian tapestry rapidly unravels.

He is not alone. There are many more clerics who seem to have come to view the 'church' as more of a humanistic institution.

MoeFaux · 13th October 2003, 07:35 PM

It's been suggested that the Pope is an atheist, as well as most succesful world leaders, and many a president. That "faith" is just a tool to control the weak.

Roadtoad · 13th October 2003, 08:16 PM

If you don't believe in God, why bother with being a bishop? If this man were honest with himself, why not simply drop out of the church, and write what he believes? See if that doesn't provoke more honest discourse?

Why? Because in all probability, he likes getting a regular paycheck.

My suspicion is that this guy has been pegged by MoeFaux.

MoeFaux · 13th October 2003, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roadtoad
If you don't believe in God, why bother with being a bishop? If this man were honest with himself, why not simply drop out of the church, and write what he believes? See if that doesn't provoke more honest discourse?

Why? Because in all probability, he likes getting a regular paycheck.

My suspicion is that this guy has been pegged by MoeFaux.

Yes, if you mean that in the general "got ya" sense and not the way Dan Savage defines it.

neutrino_cannon · 13th October 2003, 08:32 PM

Of course he likes cash. That aside, it's still a step in the right direction.

Reading "fundies say the darndest things" has shown me that there is, in fact, a fringe of christianity that is very divorced from reality, willingly so, and in light of abortion clinic bombings, as well as what some of them have said, frankly dangerous. Any step away from that particular of faith and it's tenants is a good step in my opinion.

Roadtoad · 13th October 2003, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoeFaux

Yes, if you mean that in the general "got ya" sense and not the way Dan Savage defines it.

Yup.

Knew there was a reason I liked you, MoeFaux.

Yahweh · 13th October 2003, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roadtoad
If you don't believe in God, why bother with being a bishop? If this man were honest with himself, why not simply drop out of the church, and write what he believes? See if that doesn't provoke more honest discourse?

Why? Because in all probability, he likes getting a regular paycheck.

Well, finally, a guy who has his marbles together (they'll kick him out in no time!).

Recently posted something about Christianity. I mentioned that is completely unnecessary to involved "god" or any of the supernatural part of the bible. Why? Well just look at the definition of Christianity: "A religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ". Love they neighbor, turn the other cheek, be charitable, I see no reason why "god" needs to be involved at all. I think this Bishop has the right idea, he wants to focus on the Moral Teachings of Jesus rather than worshipping God. Of course, this is going to upset a lot of fundamentalists... oh well, nothing you can do about it.

Quote:

My suspicion is that this guy has been pegged by MoeFaux.

Obviously

.

a_unique_person · 13th October 2003, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoeFaux
It's been suggested that the Pope is an atheist, as well as most succesful world leaders, and many a president. That "faith" is just a tool to control the weak.

The Pope an atheist? That's a laugh. He and is supporters are most definitely believers in god, and not just any god, but the one true god of the catholic faith, which their church alone represents. Any attempts to move the church in the direction that Spong is taking has been firmly rebuffed.

Prospero · 13th October 2003, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person

The Pope an atheist? That's a laugh. He and is supporters are most definitely believers in god, and not just any god, but the one true god of the catholic faith, which their church alone represents. Any attempts to move the church in the direction that Spong is taking has been firmly rebuffed.

You're implying that maintaining an institution involves having faith in what that institution stands for. Anyone can see that Cardinals and Archbishops have to be incredibly savvy political players in orger to get into their positions. However, like politicians, they use appearances as a tool to achieve whatever goals they have for themselves.

I'm sure you have a fairly strong argument that el papa isn't an atheist, but MoeFaux makes an extremely valid point in the context of Marx's correct identification of religion as the opiate of the masses. Just like the Soviets who outlawed religion to instead employ a national philosophy as their opiate. You obviously didn't see the Soviet officials living in the squalor they were subjecting the Soviet people to. Preaching and practice have no true relationship.

a_unique_person · 13th October 2003, 11:27 PM

The ability to be a hypocrite has no correlation to ones ability to believe in god.

Some Friggin Guy · 13th October 2003, 11:31 PM

This entire thread reminds me of an episode of the British TV show Father Ted. I believe the episode is called "Hell" .

During the episode, one of the main characters, Father Dougal, convices a bishop that religion is all srap and the Bishop leave to move in with a hippie commune.

If you haven't ever seen this show, it's great for picking apart Catholicism.

And it's hysterical.

c4ts · 13th October 2003, 11:44 PM

A man tries to introduce independant thought to Christianity and gets rejected by all the Fundies. I wonder if he didn't see that coming a mile away.

-=Vagrant=- · 14th October 2003, 01:11 AM

If I remember correctly, Finland has a retired archbishop who is openly "agnostic". I.e. says he believes with doubt. I don't remember that there were any uproars of anger from christians in any news media. That archbishop is still popular due to his soccer hobby. I just don't remember his name.

I'm getting old...

Jet Grind · 14th October 2003, 11:18 AM

I'm with the many who simply do not understand Spong's agenda. I mean, sure, he's just like the rest of us and seeks to make a living, so the money is good. But what about the religious aspects of what he's doing? Seriously, what's the point of adhering to Christianity if you don't even believe in God, prayer, salvation, etcetera? You could say that the teachings of Christ exemplify upstanding moral character, but in reality, they're not really exclusively his. They are alos the teachings of Buddha in the Dhammapadda, Lao Tzu in the Tao te Ching and a whole slew of others (many of whom predated him by centuries). Should I be a Buddhist if I'm not interested in attaining nirvana, or a Gnostic if I have no intention of attaining gnosis? I really don't get it.

I'll probably buy his book, just because I'm curious.

Brown · 14th October 2003, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh
Well, finally, a guy who has his marbles together (they'll kick him out in no time!).

Do a search of the forum for "Spong" and you'll see his name has come up before.

Those critical of Bishop Spong often fail to acknowledge that he makes some valid points. Others have raised the same points before, some publicly and some privately, and many in the various churches have responded by ignoring those points entirely.

Bishop Spong says he wants Christianity to change. What's interesting is that some people who like Spong wonder whether Christianity can survive at all if his views become widely accepted.

hgc · 15th October 2003, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brown
Do a search of the forum for "Spong" and you'll see his name has come up before.

Those critical of Bishop Spong often fail to acknowledge that he makes some valid points. Others have raised the same points before, some publicly and some privately, and many in the various churches have responded by ignoring those points entirely.

Bishop Spong says he wants Christianity to change. What's interesting is that some people who like Spong wonder whether Christianity can survive at all if his views become widely accepted.

In some ways, he's to Christianity as Gobechev is to Soviet communism -- an insider who will brings about the downfall. Except that Bishop Spong will not eventually have that effect. Even in his own church (Anglican), the fundementalists and other conservatives are about to effect a scism over an openly gay bishop. They can just lop off the apostate pieces, and continue on their merry way to Christ.

Finella · 15th October 2003, 03:12 PM

::should be doing research... must... not... post... ::

::agh::

Agreed with Brown here. Spong sees a new form of Christianity, and therefore it's not about abandoning its principles, its about reform. I'm curious, too, about his new book... once I finish this dang degree I'll go and get it.

Besides, the man's retired. The Episcopal Church is not concerned about him at this point, since he does not actively hold a leadership position. And, since the Anglican communion is all about a huge variety of belief systems they're not going to "kick him out" because then they'd have to lose 98% of their communicants (not because they have similar belief systems, but because there really is no orthodoxy in Anglicanism).

And y'all really do need to see Father Ted. Although I wouldn't equate Dougal's de-conversion of the Bishop to Spong and his book. Father Ted rocks. See the episode "Speed 3", too.

---,---'--{@

a_unique_person · 15th October 2003, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Finella
Agreed with Brown here. Spong sees a new form of Christianity, and therefore it's not about abandoning its principles, its about reform. I'm curious, too, about his new book... once I finish this dang degree I'll go and get it.

Makes sense. The Bible charts the course of god from being a tyrant prone to smiting canaanites with hideous cruelties, to one who wants to be a SNAG. His current view would just be a continuation of that historical process.

Star Of The Sea · 15th October 2003, 05:38 PM

Spong is very similar to Richard Holloway, the former Bishop of Edinburgh here in Scotland. While he was still Bishop, he made more and more pronouncements and writings that could only have been atheist. Finally, he made a TV series called Holloway's Road which basically clinched it. It wasn't long before he had to stand down as Bishop, surprisingly. I highly recommend some of his books such as Godless Morality and Dancing on the Edge.
Non-belief in the clergy has a long history, but only really became a big issue when Bishop John Robinson wrote Honest To God in the sixties.
And many lay people in the churches also ahve this attitude. check out the Sea Of faith network: sea of faith

be well
Luke

mort · 15th October 2003, 06:52 PM

I've been a fan of Bishop Spong for quite a while. He is by no means a skeptic and uses Freud to support his arguments. However, I generally agree with him in that religion isn't inherently backwards, or bad, it is the idea that religion can't change in order to be compatible with the modern world that is the problem. Thus the beliefs of Bishop Spong are somewhat like those of Unitarians, but with a Christian bent, which in turn gets the fundies p.o.ed.

If you are interested in what he has to say, I probably would not recommend "A New Christianity for a New World" since it contains quite a bit of psychological mumbo jumbo (unless you are into that kind of stuff). Instead you might want to try "Why Christianity Must Change or Die."

Finella · 17th October 2003, 07:47 AM

Quote:

I've been a fan of Bishop Spong for quite a while. He is by no means a skeptic and uses Freud to support his arguments. However, I generally agree with him in that religion isn't inherently backwards, or bad, it is the idea that religion can't change in order to be compatible with the modern world that is the problem.

OMG, he uses Freud?!?

---,---'--{@

13th October 2003, 07:30 PM	#1
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,341	Bishop who doesn't believe in god, the church or the bible. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...917344295.html Quote: America’s most controversial bishop advocates dumping the Ten Commandments. John Shelby Spong talks to Barney Zwartz. John Shelby Spong advocates a 21st century Christianity that doesn’t require people to check in their brains at the church door. In practice, what this means is abandoning "outmoded" concepts such as a traditional God, a divine Christ, prayer, and the Ten Commandments as the basis of ethics. The controversial American bishop acknowledges this means the end of traditional Christianity, but says it is dying anyway, and no modern rational person can accept its tenets. Spong is touring Australia promoting his new book, A New Christianity for a New World, to, he says, packed and appreciative audiences. These may not contain many church-goers, but such people are not the audience the retired Bishop of Newark in New Jersey, is trying to reach. At 72, he is still criss-crossing the world, bringing his ideas to the "church alumni association". "I think there are two movements going on in the Christian faith today," Spong says. "One is a retreat into yesterday, into certainty and fundamentalism. It reflects the fact there is a great struggle, and they’re not winning." More and more people don’t want to be part of that church, he says, and those are the ones he addresses. "I’m not trying to convert conservative church people, but to deal with people that conservative church people have run out of church or bored out of church." This book is his vision of what the Christian church reformed to be in dialogue with the 21st century will look like. Fundamentalists, his bete noire, will not recognise it. Fundamentalists were so named in the early 20th century for defending a set of five doctrines they regarded as fundamental: the inspiration of Scripture as the revealed word of God; the virgin birth as guarantee of Christ’s divine nature; salvation through his death; his physical resurrection; and his eventual second coming. To Spong, these are not just naive but eminently rejectable. He goes further. God is not a being, and does not interact with the world. And with this centre gone, the rest of the traditional Christian tapestry rapidly unravels. He is not alone. There are many more clerics who seem to have come to view the 'church' as more of a humanistic institution.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

13th October 2003, 07:35 PM	#2
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919	It's been suggested that the Pope is an atheist, as well as most succesful world leaders, and many a president. That "faith" is just a tool to control the weak.
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919	__________________ This post brought to you by the artist fauxmerly known as Moe.

13th October 2003, 08:24 PM	#4
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919	Quote: Originally posted by Roadtoad If you don't believe in God, why bother with being a bishop? If this man were honest with himself, why not simply drop out of the church, and write what he believes? See if that doesn't provoke more honest discourse? Why? Because in all probability, he likes getting a regular paycheck. My suspicion is that this guy has been pegged by MoeFaux. Yes, if you mean that in the general "got ya" sense and not the way Dan Savage defines it.
MoeFaux Suspicious Mind Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,919	__________________ This post brought to you by the artist fauxmerly known as Moe.

13th October 2003, 08:32 PM	#5
neutrino_cannon Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seventh circle of limbo Posts: 2,575	Of course he likes cash. That aside, it's still a step in the right direction. Reading "fundies say the darndest things" has shown me that there is, in fact, a fringe of christianity that is very divorced from reality, willingly so, and in light of abortion clinic bombings, as well as what some of them have said, frankly dangerous. Any step away from that particular of faith and it's tenants is a good step in my opinion.
	__________________ "Man would have been too happy, if, limiting himself to the visible objects which interested him, he had employed, to perfect his real sciences, his laws, his morals, his education, one half-the efforts he has put into his researches on the Divinity" -Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Necessity of Atheism

13th October 2003, 08:40 PM	#7
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029	Quote: Originally posted by Roadtoad If you don't believe in God, why bother with being a bishop? If this man were honest with himself, why not simply drop out of the church, and write what he believes? See if that doesn't provoke more honest discourse? Why? Because in all probability, he likes getting a regular paycheck. Well, finally, a guy who has his marbles together (they'll kick him out in no time!). Recently posted something about Christianity. I mentioned that is completely unnecessary to involved "god" or any of the supernatural part of the bible. Why? Well just look at the definition of Christianity: "A religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ". Love they neighbor, turn the other cheek, be charitable, I see no reason why "god" needs to be involved at all. I think this Bishop has the right idea, he wants to focus on the Moral Teachings of Jesus rather than worshipping God. Of course, this is going to upset a lot of fundamentalists... oh well, nothing you can do about it. Quote: My suspicion is that this guy has been pegged by MoeFaux. Obviously .
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029

13th October 2003, 08:16 PM	#3
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	If you don't believe in God, why bother with being a bishop? If this man were honest with himself, why not simply drop out of the church, and write what he believes? See if that doesn't provoke more honest discourse? Why? Because in all probability, he likes getting a regular paycheck. My suspicion is that this guy has been pegged by MoeFaux.

13th October 2003, 08:36 PM	#6
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Quote: Originally posted by MoeFaux Yes, if you mean that in the general "got ya" sense and not the way Dan Savage defines it. Yup. Knew there was a reason I liked you, MoeFaux.

13th October 2003, 09:09 PM	#8
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,341	Quote: Originally posted by MoeFaux It's been suggested that the Pope is an atheist, as well as most succesful world leaders, and many a president. That "faith" is just a tool to control the weak. The Pope an atheist? That's a laugh. He and is supporters are most definitely believers in god, and not just any god, but the one true god of the catholic faith, which their church alone represents. Any attempts to move the church in the direction that Spong is taking has been firmly rebuffed.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

13th October 2003, 10:53 PM	#9
Prospero Thinker Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 176	Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person The Pope an atheist? That's a laugh. He and is supporters are most definitely believers in god, and not just any god, but the one true god of the catholic faith, which their church alone represents. Any attempts to move the church in the direction that Spong is taking has been firmly rebuffed. You're implying that maintaining an institution involves having faith in what that institution stands for. Anyone can see that Cardinals and Archbishops have to be incredibly savvy political players in orger to get into their positions. However, like politicians, they use appearances as a tool to achieve whatever goals they have for themselves. I'm sure you have a fairly strong argument that el papa isn't an atheist, but MoeFaux makes an extremely valid point in the context of Marx's correct identification of religion as the opiate of the masses. Just like the Soviets who outlawed religion to instead employ a national philosophy as their opiate. You obviously didn't see the Soviet officials living in the squalor they were subjecting the Soviet people to. Preaching and practice have no true relationship.
Prospero Thinker Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 176	__________________ Life is a comedy to those who think and a tragedy to those who feel.

13th October 2003, 11:27 PM	#10
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,341	The ability to be a hypocrite has no correlation to ones ability to believe in god.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

13th October 2003, 11:31 PM	#11
Some Friggin Guy Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 860	This entire thread reminds me of an episode of the British TV show Father Ted. I believe the episode is called "Hell" . During the episode, one of the main characters, Father Dougal, convices a bishop that religion is all srap and the Bishop leave to move in with a hippie commune. If you haven't ever seen this show, it's great for picking apart Catholicism. And it's hysterical.
Some Friggin Guy Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 860	__________________ You think, therefore I am. "There is no hope for humanity. Reason is dead and we dance on the corpse. Tra la la la la! " - c4ts "What is the meaning of life? Monkey!" - c4ts

13th October 2003, 11:44 PM	#12
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	A man tries to introduce independant thought to Christianity and gets rejected by all the Fundies. I wonder if he didn't see that coming a mile away.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

14th October 2003, 01:11 AM	#13
-=Vagrant=- Thinker Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 212	If I remember correctly, Finland has a retired archbishop who is openly "agnostic". I.e. says he believes with doubt. I don't remember that there were any uproars of anger from christians in any news media. That archbishop is still popular due to his soccer hobby. I just don't remember his name. I'm getting old...
	__________________ I hugged James Randi!

14th October 2003, 11:18 AM	#14
Jet Grind Thinker Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 140	I'm with the many who simply do not understand Spong's agenda. I mean, sure, he's just like the rest of us and seeks to make a living, so the money is good. But what about the religious aspects of what he's doing? Seriously, what's the point of adhering to Christianity if you don't even believe in God, prayer, salvation, etcetera? You could say that the teachings of Christ exemplify upstanding moral character, but in reality, they're not really exclusively his. They are alos the teachings of Buddha in the Dhammapadda, Lao Tzu in the Tao te Ching and a whole slew of others (many of whom predated him by centuries). Should I be a Buddhist if I'm not interested in attaining nirvana, or a Gnostic if I have no intention of attaining gnosis? I really don't get it. I'll probably buy his book, just because I'm curious.
Jet Grind Thinker Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 140	__________________ "Metaphysics is almost always an attempt to prove the incredible by an appeal to the unintelligible." --H. L. Mencken

14th October 2003, 11:31 AM	#15
Brown Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Twin Cities, Canada Posts: 12,184	Quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Well, finally, a guy who has his marbles together (they'll kick him out in no time!). Do a search of the forum for "Spong" and you'll see his name has come up before. Those critical of Bishop Spong often fail to acknowledge that he makes some valid points. Others have raised the same points before, some publicly and some privately, and many in the various churches have responded by ignoring those points entirely. Bishop Spong says he wants Christianity to change. What's interesting is that some people who like Spong wonder whether Christianity can survive at all if his views become widely accepted.
	__________________ Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it. Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I am very sorry. I wish it were otherwise. -- The Day The Earth Stood Still, screenplay by Edmund H. North "Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." -- Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, lyrics by Tim Rice

15th October 2003, 06:56 AM	#16
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,028	Quote: Originally posted by Brown Do a search of the forum for "Spong" and you'll see his name has come up before. Those critical of Bishop Spong often fail to acknowledge that he makes some valid points. Others have raised the same points before, some publicly and some privately, and many in the various churches have responded by ignoring those points entirely. Bishop Spong says he wants Christianity to change. What's interesting is that some people who like Spong wonder whether Christianity can survive at all if his views become widely accepted. In some ways, he's to Christianity as Gobechev is to Soviet communism -- an insider who will brings about the downfall. Except that Bishop Spong will not eventually have that effect. Even in his own church (Anglican), the fundementalists and other conservatives are about to effect a scism over an openly gay bishop. They can just lop off the apostate pieces, and continue on their merry way to Christ.

15th October 2003, 03:12 PM	#17
Finella Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Outside Philly Posts: 265	::should be doing research... must... not... post... :: ::agh:: Agreed with Brown here. Spong sees a new form of Christianity, and therefore it's not about abandoning its principles, its about reform. I'm curious, too, about his new book... once I finish this dang degree I'll go and get it. Besides, the man's retired. The Episcopal Church is not concerned about him at this point, since he does not actively hold a leadership position. And, since the Anglican communion is all about a huge variety of belief systems they're not going to "kick him out" because then they'd have to lose 98% of their communicants (not because they have similar belief systems, but because there really is no orthodoxy in Anglicanism). And y'all really do need to see Father Ted. Although I wouldn't equate Dougal's de-conversion of the Bishop to Spong and his book. Father Ted rocks. See the episode "Speed 3", too. ---,---'--{@
	__________________ "By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return." Genesis 3:19 "We are a way for the universe to know itself. Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return. And we can, because the Cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff." - Carl Sagan

15th October 2003, 05:16 PM	#18
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,341	Quote: Originally posted by Finella Agreed with Brown here. Spong sees a new form of Christianity, and therefore it's not about abandoning its principles, its about reform. I'm curious, too, about his new book... once I finish this dang degree I'll go and get it. Makes sense. The Bible charts the course of god from being a tyrant prone to smiting canaanites with hideous cruelties, to one who wants to be a SNAG. His current view would just be a continuation of that historical process.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

15th October 2003, 05:38 PM	#19
Star Of The Sea Scholar Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glasgow Posts: 61	Spong is very similar to Richard Holloway, the former Bishop of Edinburgh here in Scotland. While he was still Bishop, he made more and more pronouncements and writings that could only have been atheist. Finally, he made a TV series called Holloway's Road which basically clinched it. It wasn't long before he had to stand down as Bishop, surprisingly. I highly recommend some of his books such as Godless Morality and Dancing on the Edge. Non-belief in the clergy has a long history, but only really became a big issue when Bishop John Robinson wrote Honest To God in the sixties. And many lay people in the churches also ahve this attitude. check out the Sea Of faith network: sea of faith be well Luke
	__________________ Ignoring Ad Hominems. www.snowblood.com "Your head's like mine, like all of our heads; big enough to contain every god and devil there ever was, big enough to hold the weight of oceans and the turning stars. Whole universes fit in there! But what do we choose to keep in this miraculous cabinet? Little broken things, sad trinkets that we play with over and over..." -Grant Morrison

15th October 2003, 06:52 PM	#20
mort New Blood Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 7	I've been a fan of Bishop Spong for quite a while. He is by no means a skeptic and uses Freud to support his arguments. However, I generally agree with him in that religion isn't inherently backwards, or bad, it is the idea that religion can't change in order to be compatible with the modern world that is the problem. Thus the beliefs of Bishop Spong are somewhat like those of Unitarians, but with a Christian bent, which in turn gets the fundies p.o.ed. If you are interested in what he has to say, I probably would not recommend "A New Christianity for a New World" since it contains quite a bit of psychological mumbo jumbo (unless you are into that kind of stuff). Instead you might want to try "Why Christianity Must Change or Die."
mort New Blood Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 7

17th October 2003, 07:47 AM	#21
Finella Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Outside Philly Posts: 265	Quote: I've been a fan of Bishop Spong for quite a while. He is by no means a skeptic and uses Freud to support his arguments. However, I generally agree with him in that religion isn't inherently backwards, or bad, it is the idea that religion can't change in order to be compatible with the modern world that is the problem. OMG, he uses Freud?!? ---,---'--{@
	__________________ "By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return." Genesis 3:19 "We are a way for the universe to know itself. Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return. And we can, because the Cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff." - Carl Sagan