Ok, I'll contribute - Someone tells me Kurt Cobain didn't commit suicide

ElMondoHummus · 20th June 2008, 01:45 PM

All right. While running errands today, someone I know and ran in to brought up a conspiracy hypothesis I've never dove into before: Kurt Cobain supposedly did not commit suicide. Said aquaintance built that thesis on the following:

"That woman" (he was referring to Courtney Love) supposedly stood to gain the rights to his music.
His suicide note didn't read like one. He says it read more like a tribute to (forgot the name of the rocker) than anything else.
In the death photo, Kurt supposedly had a "full length" shotgun up against his chin, which put the trigger down near his feet... but he had shoes on (which supposedly negates the possibility of working the trigger with his toe(s)).
"That woman" (Courtney Love again) was supposedly having an affair with another rock musician.

No, I haven't looked into any of this yet; I will shortly. And no, of course I don't buy into any of that at face value; everything from Von Däniken to medical quackery to 9/11 woo has taught me the value of holding off on opinions until I learn more. But, it just all sounded like any other conspiracy peddling I've seen (i.e. full of

) that I just wonder how much conspiratorialism is actually scripted by bots. We have the following that you'll find in just about any conspiracy fantasy: 'Qui bono?', little supposed facts "contradicting" the "official story", there's a cover up of the truth, yadda yadda... of course I wonder what's been left out of the descriptions in order to make the fantasy read well.

This is hardly earth-shattering conspiracy peddling here, I know. But, since we're inagurating this oversection as a non-9/11 area, I figured I'd help out by posting something applicable. Anyway, I'll dig into this a bit more and see what I can find, but if anyone knows the truth behind any of those claims, feel free to post.

Drudgewire · 20th June 2008, 01:57 PM

Good place to start.

http://www.justiceforkurt.com/updates

Tom Grant is the name you want to research. This became his obsession back in 1994 and he's never really let go. As a huge Nirvana fan, to me the note reads exactly like the kind of suicide note I'd have expected Kurt to write and don't really buy any of the questionable evidence that has been brought up. But much like the Paul is dead CT it's a lot of fun to lose yourself in for a few hours.

Best part? That Courtney had El Duce of the Mentors killled too. If anyone doesn't know who the Mentors are, google them along with "PRTC." Tipper turned them from basic nobodies into a historical footnote.

Axiom_Blade · 20th June 2008, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

Best part? That Courtney had El Duce of the Mentors killled too. If anyone doesn't know who the Mentors are, google them along with "PRTC." Tipper turned them from basic nobodies into a historical footnote.

Ah, yes. There was a guy in my college English class who wrote his final paper on this.
That's PMRC, by the way.

Drudgewire · 20th June 2008, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade

Ah, yes. There was a guy in my college English class who wrote his final paper on this.
That's PMRC, by the way.

Hahahaha, PRTC is one of our clients. I was wrapping up payroll when I typed that.

fullflavormenthol · 20th June 2008, 02:21 PM

I think there are a lot of these kind of theories about artists who died tragically. I rememember I had a friend in high school who would go on and on about this conspiracy that says that Tu Pac faked his death, and I classify the Cobain CT's in the same arena.

fuelair · 20th June 2008, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

All right. While running errands today, someone I know and ran in to brought up a conspiracy hypothesis I've never dove into before: Kurt Cobain supposedly did not commit suicide. Said aquaintance built that thesis on the following:

"That woman" (he was referring to Courtney Love) supposedly stood to gain the rights to his music.
His suicide note didn't read like one. He says it read more like a tribute to (forgot the name of the rocker) than anything else.
In the death photo, Kurt supposedly had a "full length" shotgun up against his chin, which put the trigger down near his feet... but he had shoes on (which supposedly negates the possibility of working the trigger with his toe(s)).
"That woman" (Courtney Love again) was supposedly having an affair with another rock musician.

No, I haven't looked into any of this yet; I will shortly. And no, of course I don't buy into any of that at face value; everything from Von Däniken to medical quackery to 9/11 woo has taught me the value of holding off on opinions until I learn more. But, it just all sounded like any other conspiracy peddling I've seen (i.e. full of

) that I just wonder how much conspiratorialism is actually scripted by bots. We have the following that you'll find in just about any conspiracy fantasy: 'Qui bono?', little supposed facts "contradicting" the "official story", there's a cover up of the truth, yadda yadda... of course I wonder what's been left out of the descriptions in order to make the fantasy read well.

This is hardly earth-shattering conspiracy peddling here, I know. But, since we're inagurating this oversection as a non-9/11 area, I figured I'd help out by posting something applicable. Anyway, I'll dig into this a bit more and see what I can find, but if anyone knows the truth behind any of those claims, feel free to post.

Elvis and Marilyn Monroe did it - just on a whim!!

applecorped · 20th June 2008, 02:57 PM

Here is the text of the suicide note in question:

To Boddah

Speaking from the tongue of an experienced simpleton who obviously would rather be an emasculated, infantile complain-ee. This note should be pretty easy to understand.

All the warnings from the punk rock 101 courses over the years, since my first introduction to the, shall we say, ethics involved with independence and the embracement of your community has proven to be very true. I haven't felt the excitement of listening to as well as creating music along with reading and writing for too many years now. I feel guity beyond words about these things.

For example when we're back stage and the lights go out and the manic roar of the crowds begins., it doesn't affect me the way in which it did for Freddie Mercury, who seemed to love, relish in the the love and adoration from the crowd which is something I totally admire and envy. The fact is, I can't fool you, any one of you. It simply isn't fair to you or me. The worst crime I can think of would be to rip people off by faking it and pretending as if I'm having 100% fun. Sometimes I feel as if I should have a punch-in time clock before I walk out on stage. I've tried everything within my power to appreciate it (and I do,God, believe me I do, but it's not enough). I appreciate the fact that I and we have affected and entertained a lot of people. It must be one of those narcissists who only appreciate things when they're gone. I'm too sensitive. I need to be slightly numb in order to regain the enthusiasms I once had as a child.

On our last 3 tours, I've had a much better appreciation for all the people I've known personally, and as fans of our music, but I still can't get over the frustration, the guilt and empathy I have for everyone. There's good in all of us and I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too *********** sad. The sad little, sensitive, unappreciative, Pisces, Jesus man. Why don't you just enjoy it? I don't know!

I have a goddess of a wife who sweats ambition and empathy and a daughter who reminds me too much of what i used to be, full of love and joy, kissing every person she meets because everyone is good and will do her no harm. And that terrifies me to the point to where I can barely function. I can't stand the thought of Frances becoming the miserable, self-destructive, death rocker that I've become.

I have it good, very good, and I'm grateful, but since the age of seven, I've become hateful towards all humans in general. Only because it seems so easy for people to get along that have empathy. Only because I love and feel sorry for people too much I guess.

Thank you all from the pit of my burning, nauseous stomach for your letters and concern during the past years. I'm too much of an erratic, moody baby! I don't have the passion anymore, and so remember, it's better to burn out than to fade away.

Peace, love, empathy.
Kurt Cobain

Frances and Courtney, I'll be at your alter.
Please keep going Courtney, for Frances.
For her life, which will be so much happier without me.

I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU!

There has been speculation that the note was a message to his fans telling them he was quitting the music business and that the last part of the note was added afterword by someone else to make it appear to be a suicide note.

Aerich · 20th June 2008, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

In the death photo, Kurt supposedly had a "full length" shotgun up against his chin, which put the trigger down near his feet... but he had shoes on (which supposedly negates the possibility of working the trigger with his toe(s)).

A shotgun so long the trigger would be at his feet when the muzzle was in contact with some part of his face wouldn't be "full length", it would be "extraordinarily long".

Do a bit of googling and you'll find that the weapon was a Remington M-11 20 gauge. Remington's website gives the barrel length for a basic 20ga Model 11 as 26 or 28 inches. By eyeball estimate, I'd put the trigger about 6 inches behind the barrel. That doesn't seem so long that he couldn't hold the barrel in one hand and reach for the trigger with the other, especially by lowering one shoulder.

I Ratant · 20th June 2008, 05:28 PM

An Ex-LAPD Remington 870. 20 inch barrel
With the barrel under my chin, my thumb easily fits into the trigger guard.

ElMondoHummus · 20th June 2008, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Aerich

A shotgun so long the trigger would be at his feet when the muzzle was in contact with some part of his face wouldn't be "full length", it would be "extraordinarily long".

Do a bit of googling and you'll find that the weapon was a Remington M-11 20 gauge. Remington's website gives the barrel length for a basic 20ga Model 11 as 26 or 28 inches. By eyeball estimate, I'd put the trigger about 6 inches behind the barrel. That doesn't seem so long that he couldn't hold the barrel in one hand and reach for the trigger with the other, especially by lowering one shoulder.

Originally Posted by I Ratant

An Ex-LAPD Remington 870. 20 inch barrel
With the barrel under my chin, my thumb easily fits into the trigger guard.

Aha! See, this is what I mean by "little supposed facts". That's just like the steel melting 9/11/WTC canard. In that case, who says that the building's steel had to melt (we all know this of course); in this case, who says the shotgun was that long?

I'd go find that aquaintance and tell him this, but I'm afraid I'd ruin his nice, little entertaining fantasy. What would he do for fun after that?

Anyway, like I said earlier, this myth seems to totally follow the standard model of a conspiracy fantasy.

And on that note, as an aside: It's sorta funny that so far I've not seen many people try to defend Courtney Love against the "Qui Bono" argument.

Yeah, it's mean, but it cracks me up.

Thunder · 20th June 2008, 06:29 PM

dont tell me.....cobain was about to reveal the true assassins of JFK and the CIA/Mossad had him knocked off?

applecorped · 20th June 2008, 06:35 PM

applecorped · 20th June 2008, 06:36 PM

oops, sorry

applecorped · 20th June 2008, 06:38 PM

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/D...mparisons.html

Handwriting analysis. Comments?

l0k0 · 20th June 2008, 08:12 PM

The handwriting argument seems contradictory to me. They argue he couldn't have survived the dose, written the note, and discharge the shotgun, yet they expect his handwriting to be consistent? I would appreciate it if the comparison included handwriting from Cobain from a previous occasion.

Tbone · 20th June 2008, 09:15 PM

Considering the amount of heroin in his system at the time I highly doubt he was able to aim straight up, or what actually was straight up, as opposed to what he thought was up. Then take into its high efectiveness as a painkiller.

Besides, if Nirvana still existed, they'd have probably ended up like Metallica by now

LordoftheLeftHand · 20th June 2008, 11:03 PM

I just tried to "pull" the trigger of a shotgun (mossberg 500) with my feet while wearing shoes. It's a little awkward but it can be done. You don't have to move the trigger very far at all. Took about 10 seconds (how long that is in "heroin time" I don't know).

LLH

I Ratant · 20th June 2008, 11:39 PM

There's photos from the Aleutians in WWII showing Japanese soldiers who suicided using their rifles rather than surrender. And their big toes.

alex04 · 21st June 2008, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

Good place to start.

http://www.justiceforkurt.com/updates

am relieved the site isn't call truthforkurt.com

Axiom_Blade · 21st June 2008, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by alex04

am relieved the site isn't call truthforkurt.com

The Cobain Truth Movement?

ronpaulisright · 21st June 2008, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol

I think there are a lot of these kind of theories about artists who died tragically. I rememember I had a friend in high school who would go on and on about this conspiracy that says that Tu Pac faked his death, and I classify the Cobain CT's in the same arena.

You also have Andy Kaufman faking his death.

Don't leave out the fact that el duce passed a polygraph where they asked if courtney love hired him to kill cobain.

ronpaulisright · 21st June 2008, 09:29 PM

Cobain was gonna blow the lid off of the jews plan to hijack airplanes and fly them into the world trade center and the pentagon.

alex04 · 21st June 2008, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by ronpaulisright

Cobain was gonna blow the lid off of the jews plan to hijack airplanes and fly them into the world trade center and the pentagon.

So someone blew the lid off Cobain instead? Maybe it's not the first time Silverstein has told someone to 'pull it', eh?

Ah the world of conspiracies..

fullflavormenthol · 22nd June 2008, 04:19 AM

Well Ronpaulisright just contributed my hypothesis about the this forum. 1.) Threads in the non-9-11 section will not likely make it to page 5 without being connected in some way, shape, or form to 9-11. 2.)This likelihood of a connection to 9-11 increases exponencially if the topic deals with the death of a famous or well-known person. 3.) The amount of logical steps leaped by the person connecting the event to 9-11 is proportionate to the amount of time it will take them to blame the conspiracy on the Jews.

I dub my hypothesis; Menthol's Law (though not a law in any scientific sense.)

Axiom_Blade · 22nd June 2008, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by ronpaulisright

Don't leave out the fact that el duce passed a polygraph where they asked if courtney love hired him to kill cobain.

Polygraphs are not lie detectors.

ronpaulisright · 22nd June 2008, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade

Polygraphs are not lie detectors.

I mean he passed a lie detector test.

Kurt Cobain was wasted beyond belief of the chance that he was able to pull off blowing himself off with a shotgun. The other argument is that it's a matter of tolerance if he can handle offing himself while being under the influence of a certain amount of Heroin.

fullflavormenthol · 22nd June 2008, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by ronpaulisright

I mean he passed a lie detector test.

Yeah that is the colloquial name for a polygraph, but it isn't really a lie detector in the scientific sense. What we mean is that it isn't evidence in court, because it can't detect truth or falsehood.

ronpaulisright · 22nd June 2008, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol

Yeah that is the colloquial name for a polygraph, but it isn't really a lie detector in the scientific sense. What we mean is that it isn't evidence in court, because it can't detect truth or falsehood.

I know that but there have been documented cases of men incarcerated given the chance of being freed if they can pass a lie detector test.

Don't ask to show the link because I watched it on A&E.

El duce was later killed by a train.

Drudgewire · 23rd June 2008, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by ronpaulisright

I know that but there have been documented cases of men incarcerated given the chance of being freed if they can pass a lie detector test.

Don't ask to show the link because I watched it on A&E.

El duce was later killed by a train.

I promise there was more to any release than a polygraph test. For much fun reading: http://antipolygraph.org/

It's been a long time since I read about the Cobain conspiracy, but wasn't El Duce's train death supposedly part of the controversy? Like the body was supposedly placed on the track?

Geez, three days later and I'm still embarrassed about the PMRC brainfart.

Matthew Best · 23rd June 2008, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by ronpaulisright

Kurt Cobain was wasted beyond belief of the chance that he was able to pull off blowing himself off with a shotgun. The other argument is that it's a matter of tolerance if he can handle offing himself while being under the influence of a certain amount of Heroin.

Would you mind writing that again? I'm not sure I understood what you were trying to say.

ronpaulisright · 23rd June 2008, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

I promise there was more to any release than a polygraph test. For much fun reading: http://antipolygraph.org/

It's been a long time since I read about the Cobain conspiracy, but wasn't El Duce's train death supposedly part of the controversy? Like the body was supposedly placed on the track?

Geez, three days later and I'm still embarrassed about the PMRC brainfart.

They were going to release this dude from prison, IF, he could pass lie detector test.

According to the A&E documentary of course.

ronpaulisright · 23rd June 2008, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Would you mind writing that again? I'm not sure I understood what you were trying to say.

One of the arguments stated is that Cobain was too wasted to execute his suicide. The drugs would hinder his ability to operate a shotgun.

The opposing argument states that it is an issue of tolerance. If he had tolerated an average fix, he could have handled the deed.

Whiplash · 23rd June 2008, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by ronpaulisright

They were going to release this dude from prison, IF, he could pass lie detector test.

According to the A&E documentary of course.

Which A&E documentary, specifically?

Or is this another insane, ridiculous claim with nothing to back it up?

ronpaulisright · 23rd June 2008, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by Whiplash

Which A&E documentary, specifically?

Or is this another insane, ridiculous claim with nothing to back it up?

Edited by chillzero:

Edited for civility

I don't remember. It stuck in my mind because I was surprised that they were going to let him go if he passed a lie detector test. He failed.

Edited by chillzero:

Edited for civility

Whiplash · 23rd June 2008, 10:32 PM

In other words, an insane claim you cannot back up.

See, if we could see this video, we could see if your interpetation of what happened is accurate. You suggest that we simply accept your word that this happened and that your interpetation of what was happening is correct.

Forgive me if I require something more substantive. But feel free to insult me personally a bit more if it helps bolster your opinion.

ronpaulisright · 23rd June 2008, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Whiplash

In other words, an insane claim you cannot back up.

See, if we could see this video, we could see if your interpretation of what happened is accurate. You suggest that we simply accept your word that this happened and that your interpretation of what was happening is correct.

Forgive me if I require something more substantive. But feel free to insult me personally a bit more if it helps bolster your opinion.

No. City confidential or American justice. One of those series'. Just some white guy incarcerated for murder. They offered a deal to him. Pass a polygraph, and you are released.

CptColumbo · 24th June 2008, 01:16 PM

If it was a parole, I would buy it since polygraph examiners are permitted to testify in front of judges in various types of hearings (Motion to Revoke Probation), and it is the condition of parole for many sex offenders. However, AFAIK few states even allow polygraph results to be disclosed in court (and then with stipulations) and would only be looked upon as expert testimony.

Here's the episode guides, if something looks familiar let us know:
http://www.aetv.com/city_confidentia...episode=137954
http://www.aetv.com/american_justice...episode=304862

ronpaulisright · 24th June 2008, 03:07 PM

It might have been murder. It might not.

It MIGHT have been a death row case.

What stuck out was the fact that they were going to let this guy go home, if he passed a lie detector test.

Drudgewire · 24th June 2008, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by ronpaulisright

It might have been murder. It might not.

It MIGHT have been a death row case.

What stuck out was the fact that they were going to let this guy go home, if he passed a lie detector test.

There is no way that was a convicted criminal. If it's simply a suspect being held for questioning (which I guess could count as incarcerated), that makes some sense to try and get him to take one. Even those of us who don't believe in the reliablility of the polygraph agree it's a great tool for making someone confess after taking one.

If they don't have enough evidence to indict someone yet, why not take a shot with the polygraph? It's not like if he'd "passed," they'd have stopped searching for evidence against him.

I just associate "incarcerated" with "convicted." Or at least "indicted and held without bail." Trust me, in those instances there are too many legal roadblocks in place for it all to be undone by any one action. Hell, convicted rapists who are found innocent later due to DNA evidence don't just get to walk out the door the second the results are confirmed. Legal system doesn't work like that.

deep · 24th June 2008, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

All right. While running errands today, someone I know and ran in to brought up a conspiracy hypothesis I've never dove into before: Kurt Cobain supposedly did not commit suicide.

I thought I remember reading somewhere that the door to the room/garage (whatever) where he killed himself was locked from the inside. Not like that really proves anything, but it would add to the hypothetical complexity of the murder.

I really believe this is a situation where Kurt Cobain fans didn't want to believe that this person they idolized would commit suicide. The first natural question to ask is "who benefits", and that pretty much always points to the spouse (emotional distress notwithstanding).

There was one thing that seemed awfully weird to me, and that was the fact that Kurt Cobain, a heroin addict, chose to shoot himself in the head with a shotgun. In my opinion, that's akin to a professional base jumper committing suicide by tying bricks to his legs and jumping in a lake. Perhaps his tolerance to the drug was too high to overdose in the traditional "quick and painless" way - who knows - I just always thought that was odd.

20th June 2008, 01:45 PM	#1
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 11,945	Ok, I'll contribute - Someone tells me Kurt Cobain didn't commit suicide All right. While running errands today, someone I know and ran in to brought up a conspiracy hypothesis I've never dove into before: Kurt Cobain supposedly did not commit suicide. Said aquaintance built that thesis on the following: "That woman" (he was referring to Courtney Love) supposedly stood to gain the rights to his music. His suicide note didn't read like one. He says it read more like a tribute to (forgot the name of the rocker) than anything else. In the death photo, Kurt supposedly had a "full length" shotgun up against his chin, which put the trigger down near his feet... but he had shoes on (which supposedly negates the possibility of working the trigger with his toe(s)). "That woman" (Courtney Love again) was supposedly having an affair with another rock musician. No, I haven't looked into any of this yet; I will shortly. And no, of course I don't buy into any of that at face value; everything from Von Däniken to medical quackery to 9/11 woo has taught me the value of holding off on opinions until I learn more. But, it just all sounded like any other conspiracy peddling I've seen (i.e. full of ) that I just wonder how much conspiratorialism is actually scripted by bots. We have the following that you'll find in just about any conspiracy fantasy: 'Qui bono?', little supposed facts "contradicting" the "official story", there's a cover up of the truth, yadda yadda... of course I wonder what's been left out of the descriptions in order to make the fantasy read well. This is hardly earth-shattering conspiracy peddling here, I know. But, since we're inagurating this oversection as a non-9/11 area, I figured I'd help out by posting something applicable. Anyway, I'll dig into this a bit more and see what I can find, but if anyone knows the truth behind any of those claims, feel free to post.
	__________________ must take this very carefully....booze is wise men's drink..... -pillory "... I'm quite willing to have everyone use my rejection of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a basis for assessing my intelligence, judgment, and trustworthiness" -Prof. Ann Althouse

20th June 2008, 01:57 PM	#2
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Good place to start. http://www.justiceforkurt.com/updates Tom Grant is the name you want to research. This became his obsession back in 1994 and he's never really let go. As a huge Nirvana fan, to me the note reads exactly like the kind of suicide note I'd have expected Kurt to write and don't really buy any of the questionable evidence that has been brought up. But much like the Paul is dead CT it's a lot of fun to lose yourself in for a few hours. Best part? That Courtney had El Duce of the Mentors killled too. If anyone doesn't know who the Mentors are, google them along with "PRTC." Tipper turned them from basic nobodies into a historical footnote.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

20th June 2008, 02:20 PM	#4
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade Ah, yes. There was a guy in my college English class who wrote his final paper on this. That's PMRC, by the way. Hahahaha, PRTC is one of our clients. I was wrapping up payroll when I typed that.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

20th June 2008, 02:21 PM	#5
fullflavormenthol Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,417	I think there are a lot of these kind of theories about artists who died tragically. I rememember I had a friend in high school who would go on and on about this conspiracy that says that Tu Pac faked his death, and I classify the Cobain CT's in the same arena.
	__________________ "Burning people! He says what we're all thinking!" -GLaDOS

20th June 2008, 02:21 PM	#6
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus All right. While running errands today, someone I know and ran in to brought up a conspiracy hypothesis I've never dove into before: Kurt Cobain supposedly did not commit suicide. Said aquaintance built that thesis on the following: "That woman" (he was referring to Courtney Love) supposedly stood to gain the rights to his music. His suicide note didn't read like one. He says it read more like a tribute to (forgot the name of the rocker) than anything else. In the death photo, Kurt supposedly had a "full length" shotgun up against his chin, which put the trigger down near his feet... but he had shoes on (which supposedly negates the possibility of working the trigger with his toe(s)). "That woman" (Courtney Love again) was supposedly having an affair with another rock musician. No, I haven't looked into any of this yet; I will shortly. And no, of course I don't buy into any of that at face value; everything from Von Däniken to medical quackery to 9/11 woo has taught me the value of holding off on opinions until I learn more. But, it just all sounded like any other conspiracy peddling I've seen (i.e. full of ) that I just wonder how much conspiratorialism is actually scripted by bots. We have the following that you'll find in just about any conspiracy fantasy: 'Qui bono?', little supposed facts "contradicting" the "official story", there's a cover up of the truth, yadda yadda... of course I wonder what's been left out of the descriptions in order to make the fantasy read well. This is hardly earth-shattering conspiracy peddling here, I know. But, since we're inagurating this oversection as a non-9/11 area, I figured I'd help out by posting something applicable. Anyway, I'll dig into this a bit more and see what I can find, but if anyone knows the truth behind any of those claims, feel free to post. Elvis and Marilyn Monroe did it - just on a whim!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961

20th June 2008, 02:17 PM	#3
Axiom_Blade Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,748	Originally Posted by Drudgewire Best part? That Courtney had El Duce of the Mentors killled too. If anyone doesn't know who the Mentors are, google them along with "PRTC." Tipper turned them from basic nobodies into a historical footnote. Ah, yes. There was a guy in my college English class who wrote his final paper on this. That's PMRC, by the way.

20th June 2008, 02:57 PM	#7
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,677	Here is the text of the suicide note in question: To Boddah Speaking from the tongue of an experienced simpleton who obviously would rather be an emasculated, infantile complain-ee. This note should be pretty easy to understand. All the warnings from the punk rock 101 courses over the years, since my first introduction to the, shall we say, ethics involved with independence and the embracement of your community has proven to be very true. I haven't felt the excitement of listening to as well as creating music along with reading and writing for too many years now. I feel guity beyond words about these things. For example when we're back stage and the lights go out and the manic roar of the crowds begins., it doesn't affect me the way in which it did for Freddie Mercury, who seemed to love, relish in the the love and adoration from the crowd which is something I totally admire and envy. The fact is, I can't fool you, any one of you. It simply isn't fair to you or me. The worst crime I can think of would be to rip people off by faking it and pretending as if I'm having 100% fun. Sometimes I feel as if I should have a punch-in time clock before I walk out on stage. I've tried everything within my power to appreciate it (and I do,God, believe me I do, but it's not enough). I appreciate the fact that I and we have affected and entertained a lot of people. It must be one of those narcissists who only appreciate things when they're gone. I'm too sensitive. I need to be slightly numb in order to regain the enthusiasms I once had as a child. On our last 3 tours, I've had a much better appreciation for all the people I've known personally, and as fans of our music, but I still can't get over the frustration, the guilt and empathy I have for everyone. There's good in all of us and I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too *********** sad. The sad little, sensitive, unappreciative, Pisces, Jesus man. Why don't you just enjoy it? I don't know! I have a goddess of a wife who sweats ambition and empathy and a daughter who reminds me too much of what i used to be, full of love and joy, kissing every person she meets because everyone is good and will do her no harm. And that terrifies me to the point to where I can barely function. I can't stand the thought of Frances becoming the miserable, self-destructive, death rocker that I've become. I have it good, very good, and I'm grateful, but since the age of seven, I've become hateful towards all humans in general. Only because it seems so easy for people to get along that have empathy. Only because I love and feel sorry for people too much I guess. Thank you all from the pit of my burning, nauseous stomach for your letters and concern during the past years. I'm too much of an erratic, moody baby! I don't have the passion anymore, and so remember, it's better to burn out than to fade away. Peace, love, empathy. Kurt Cobain Frances and Courtney, I'll be at your alter. Please keep going Courtney, for Frances. For her life, which will be so much happier without me. I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU! There has been speculation that the note was a message to his fans telling them he was quitting the music business and that the last part of the note was added afterword by someone else to make it appear to be a suicide note.

20th June 2008, 03:06 PM	#8
Aerich Student Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 38	Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus In the death photo, Kurt supposedly had a "full length" shotgun up against his chin, which put the trigger down near his feet... but he had shoes on (which supposedly negates the possibility of working the trigger with his toe(s)). A shotgun so long the trigger would be at his feet when the muzzle was in contact with some part of his face wouldn't be "full length", it would be "extraordinarily long". Do a bit of googling and you'll find that the weapon was a Remington M-11 20 gauge. Remington's website gives the barrel length for a basic 20ga Model 11 as 26 or 28 inches. By eyeball estimate, I'd put the trigger about 6 inches behind the barrel. That doesn't seem so long that he couldn't hold the barrel in one hand and reach for the trigger with the other, especially by lowering one shoulder.
Aerich Student Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 38	__________________ In the first place God made idiots. This was for practice. Then he made School Boards. -Mark Twain

20th June 2008, 05:56 PM	#10
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 11,945	Originally Posted by Aerich A shotgun so long the trigger would be at his feet when the muzzle was in contact with some part of his face wouldn't be "full length", it would be "extraordinarily long". Do a bit of googling and you'll find that the weapon was a Remington M-11 20 gauge. Remington's website gives the barrel length for a basic 20ga Model 11 as 26 or 28 inches. By eyeball estimate, I'd put the trigger about 6 inches behind the barrel. That doesn't seem so long that he couldn't hold the barrel in one hand and reach for the trigger with the other, especially by lowering one shoulder. Originally Posted by I Ratant An Ex-LAPD Remington 870. 20 inch barrel With the barrel under my chin, my thumb easily fits into the trigger guard. Aha! See, this is what I mean by "little supposed facts". That's just like the steel melting 9/11/WTC canard. In that case, who says that the building's steel had to melt (we all know this of course); in this case, who says the shotgun was that long? I'd go find that aquaintance and tell him this, but I'm afraid I'd ruin his nice, little entertaining fantasy. What would he do for fun after that? Anyway, like I said earlier, this myth seems to totally follow the standard model of a conspiracy fantasy. And on that note, as an aside: It's sorta funny that so far I've not seen many people try to defend Courtney Love against the "Qui Bono" argument. Yeah, it's mean, but it cracks me up.
	__________________ must take this very carefully....booze is wise men's drink..... -pillory "... I'm quite willing to have everyone use my rejection of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a basis for assessing my intelligence, judgment, and trustworthiness" -Prof. Ann Althouse

20th June 2008, 06:29 PM	#11
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	dont tell me.....cobain was about to reveal the true assassins of JFK and the CIA/Mossad had him knocked off?

20th June 2008, 06:35 PM	#12
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,677

20th June 2008, 06:36 PM	#13
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,677	oops, sorry

20th June 2008, 06:38 PM	#14
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,677	http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/D...mparisons.html Handwriting analysis. Comments?

20th June 2008, 08:12 PM	#15
l0k0 Scholar Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 85	The handwriting argument seems contradictory to me. They argue he couldn't have survived the dose, written the note, and discharge the shotgun, yet they expect his handwriting to be consistent? I would appreciate it if the comparison included handwriting from Cobain from a previous occasion.
l0k0 Scholar Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 85

20th June 2008, 09:15 PM	#16
Tbone Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,448	Considering the amount of heroin in his system at the time I highly doubt he was able to aim straight up, or what actually was straight up, as opposed to what he thought was up. Then take into its high efectiveness as a painkiller. Besides, if Nirvana still existed, they'd have probably ended up like Metallica by now

20th June 2008, 11:03 PM	#17
LordoftheLeftHand Dominus Sinistrae Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,186	I just tried to "pull" the trigger of a shotgun (mossberg 500) with my feet while wearing shoes. It's a little awkward but it can be done. You don't have to move the trigger very far at all. Took about 10 seconds (how long that is in "heroin time" I don't know). LLH
	__________________ What though the field be lost? All is not lost—the unconquerable will, And study of revenge, immortal hate, And courage never to submit or yield - Milton, Paradise Lost

20th June 2008, 11:39 PM	#18
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	There's photos from the Aleutians in WWII showing Japanese soldiers who suicided using their rifles rather than surrender. And their big toes.

21st June 2008, 01:23 AM	#19
alex04 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 290	Originally Posted by Drudgewire Good place to start. http://www.justiceforkurt.com/updates am relieved the site isn't call truthforkurt.com

21st June 2008, 06:11 AM	#20
Axiom_Blade Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,748	Originally Posted by alex04 am relieved the site isn't call truthforkurt.com The Cobain Truth Movement?

21st June 2008, 09:25 PM	#21
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol I think there are a lot of these kind of theories about artists who died tragically. I rememember I had a friend in high school who would go on and on about this conspiracy that says that Tu Pac faked his death, and I classify the Cobain CT's in the same arena. You also have Andy Kaufman faking his death. Don't leave out the fact that el duce passed a polygraph where they asked if courtney love hired him to kill cobain.
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228

21st June 2008, 09:29 PM	#22
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228	Cobain was gonna blow the lid off of the jews plan to hijack airplanes and fly them into the world trade center and the pentagon.
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228

21st June 2008, 09:53 PM	#23
alex04 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 290	Originally Posted by ronpaulisright Cobain was gonna blow the lid off of the jews plan to hijack airplanes and fly them into the world trade center and the pentagon. So someone blew the lid off Cobain instead? Maybe it's not the first time Silverstein has told someone to 'pull it', eh? Ah the world of conspiracies..

22nd June 2008, 04:19 AM	#24
fullflavormenthol Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,417	Well Ronpaulisright just contributed my hypothesis about the this forum. 1.) Threads in the non-9-11 section will not likely make it to page 5 without being connected in some way, shape, or form to 9-11. 2.)This likelihood of a connection to 9-11 increases exponencially if the topic deals with the death of a famous or well-known person. 3.) The amount of logical steps leaped by the person connecting the event to 9-11 is proportionate to the amount of time it will take them to blame the conspiracy on the Jews. I dub my hypothesis; Menthol's Law (though not a law in any scientific sense.)
	__________________ "Burning people! He says what we're all thinking!" -GLaDOS

22nd June 2008, 11:09 AM	#25
Axiom_Blade Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,748	Originally Posted by ronpaulisright Don't leave out the fact that el duce passed a polygraph where they asked if courtney love hired him to kill cobain. Polygraphs are not lie detectors.

22nd June 2008, 02:05 PM	#26
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade Polygraphs are not lie detectors. I mean he passed a lie detector test. Kurt Cobain was wasted beyond belief of the chance that he was able to pull off blowing himself off with a shotgun. The other argument is that it's a matter of tolerance if he can handle offing himself while being under the influence of a certain amount of Heroin.
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228

22nd June 2008, 02:23 PM	#27
fullflavormenthol Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,417	Originally Posted by ronpaulisright I mean he passed a lie detector test. Yeah that is the colloquial name for a polygraph, but it isn't really a lie detector in the scientific sense. What we mean is that it isn't evidence in court, because it can't detect truth or falsehood.
	__________________ "Burning people! He says what we're all thinking!" -GLaDOS

22nd June 2008, 03:34 PM	#28
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol Yeah that is the colloquial name for a polygraph, but it isn't really a lie detector in the scientific sense. What we mean is that it isn't evidence in court, because it can't detect truth or falsehood. I know that but there have been documented cases of men incarcerated given the chance of being freed if they can pass a lie detector test. Don't ask to show the link because I watched it on A&E. El duce was later killed by a train.
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228

23rd June 2008, 05:18 AM	#29
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Originally Posted by ronpaulisright I know that but there have been documented cases of men incarcerated given the chance of being freed if they can pass a lie detector test. Don't ask to show the link because I watched it on A&E. El duce was later killed by a train. I promise there was more to any release than a polygraph test. For much fun reading: http://antipolygraph.org/ It's been a long time since I read about the Cobain conspiracy, but wasn't El Duce's train death supposedly part of the controversy? Like the body was supposedly placed on the track? Geez, three days later and I'm still embarrassed about the PMRC brainfart.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

23rd June 2008, 06:37 PM	#30
Matthew Best Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 4,147	Originally Posted by ronpaulisright Kurt Cobain was wasted beyond belief of the chance that he was able to pull off blowing himself off with a shotgun. The other argument is that it's a matter of tolerance if he can handle offing himself while being under the influence of a certain amount of Heroin. Would you mind writing that again? I'm not sure I understood what you were trying to say.

23rd June 2008, 06:39 PM	#31
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by Drudgewire I promise there was more to any release than a polygraph test. For much fun reading: http://antipolygraph.org/ It's been a long time since I read about the Cobain conspiracy, but wasn't El Duce's train death supposedly part of the controversy? Like the body was supposedly placed on the track? Geez, three days later and I'm still embarrassed about the PMRC brainfart. They were going to release this dude from prison, IF, he could pass lie detector test. According to the A&E documentary of course.
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228

23rd June 2008, 06:42 PM	#32
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by Matthew Best Would you mind writing that again? I'm not sure I understood what you were trying to say. One of the arguments stated is that Cobain was too wasted to execute his suicide. The drugs would hinder his ability to operate a shotgun. The opposing argument states that it is an issue of tolerance. If he had tolerated an average fix, he could have handled the deed.
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228

23rd June 2008, 08:18 PM	#33
Whiplash Acting like a maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Shipwrecked and Comatose Posts: 5,389	Originally Posted by ronpaulisright They were going to release this dude from prison, IF, he could pass lie detector test. According to the A&E documentary of course. Which A&E documentary, specifically? Or is this another insane, ridiculous claim with nothing to back it up?
	__________________ Ken Buddha.. a smile, two bangs, and a religion. On the ricochet.. it's gonna hit you. It's always funny until someone gets hurt.

23rd June 2008, 10:32 PM	#35
Whiplash Acting like a maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Shipwrecked and Comatose Posts: 5,389	In other words, an insane claim you cannot back up. See, if we could see this video, we could see if your interpetation of what happened is accurate. You suggest that we simply accept your word that this happened and that your interpetation of what was happening is correct. Forgive me if I require something more substantive. But feel free to insult me personally a bit more if it helps bolster your opinion.
	__________________ Ken Buddha.. a smile, two bangs, and a religion. On the ricochet.. it's gonna hit you. It's always funny until someone gets hurt.

23rd June 2008, 11:15 PM	#36
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by Whiplash In other words, an insane claim you cannot back up. See, if we could see this video, we could see if your interpretation of what happened is accurate. You suggest that we simply accept your word that this happened and that your interpretation of what was happening is correct. Forgive me if I require something more substantive. But feel free to insult me personally a bit more if it helps bolster your opinion. No. City confidential or American justice. One of those series'. Just some white guy incarcerated for murder. They offered a deal to him. Pass a polygraph, and you are released.
ronpaulisright Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,228

24th June 2008, 01:16 PM	#37
CptColumbo Just One More Question Join Date: May 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 9,130	If it was a parole, I would buy it since polygraph examiners are permitted to testify in front of judges in various types of hearings (Motion to Revoke Probation), and it is the condition of parole for many sex offenders. However, AFAIK few states even allow polygraph results to be disclosed in court (and then with stipulations) and would only be looked upon as expert testimony. Here's the episode guides, if something looks familiar let us know: http://www.aetv.com/city_confidentia...episode=137954 http://www.aetv.com/american_justice...episode=304862
	__________________ I've been involved in a lot of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader.--Creed, "The Office" The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be only found in the minds of men. Prejudices and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own.--Rod Serling Last edited by CptColumbo; 24th June 2008 at 01:21 PM.