Obama says child rapists should be executed

[Thunder]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080626/...hild_rape_case

I am no fan of the death penalty. But I have to agree with Obama.

Child rapists...especially those who do it multiple times to the same child..should be put to death.

Child abuse is not a crime of passion...perhaps making child rape a Federal crime punishable by death would deter enough folks from doing it.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally Posted by parky76

Child abuse is not a crime of passion...perhaps making child rape a Federal crime punishable by death would deter enough folks from doing it.

I think the law of unintended consequences might bite you in the butt there.

If you make any crime against the person short of murder subject to the death sentence, then there is no practical incentive for the criminal not to go on and kill his victim, and one big practical incentive to do so --- the silence of the witness. The only thing restraining the criminal from protecting his interests by murdering his victim would be ... his conscience? ... oh, hold on ...

In short, it might well decrease rapes, but it might well increase rape-murders.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Originally Posted by parky76

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080626/...hild_rape_case

I am no fan of the death penalty. But I have to agree with Obama.

Child rapists...especially those who do it multiple times to the same child..should be put to death.

Child abuse is not a crime of passion...perhaps making child rape a Federal crime punishable by death would deter enough folks from doing it.

Lookie' there! I agree with Obama.

The State should never have the right to execute.


:13:

[gdnp]

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

I think the law of unintended consequences might bite you in the butt there.

If you make any crime against the person short of murder subject to the death sentence, then there is no practical incentive for the criminal not to go on and kill his victim, and one big practical incentive to do so --- the silence of the witness. The only thing restraining the criminal from protecting his interests by murdering his victim would be ... his conscience? ... oh, hold on ...

In short, it might well decrease rapes, but it might well increase rape-murders.

I tend to agree. Child rape is a sickness, which justifies locking up child rapists after they complete their sentences until they are cured. I doubt many child rapists would be deterred. They would, however, be more likely to resist arrest.

BTW, does this include aa16 year old that forces himself on his 15 year old girlfriend? If so, there are going to be a lot of he said/she said rape cases with the death penalty on the line.

How about statutory rape?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Originally Posted by gdnp

I tend to agree. Child rape is a sickness, which justifies locking up child rapists after they complete their sentences until they are cured. I doubt many child rapists would be deterred. They would, however, be more likely to resist arrest.

BTW, does this include aa16 year old that forces himself on his 15 year old girlfriend? If so, there are going to be a lot of he said/she said rape cases with the death penalty on the line.

How about statutory rape?

This particular case had to due with under 12 years of age.

[Policenaut]

I know the idea has been around for a while but can't we make Pedo Island and be done with it? A conviction will get you a one way ticket. There is no coming back.

[corplinx]

I doubt penalty will deter this crime since its not one for monetary gain and is acted out of impulses and being a fricken defective sicko in the head.

[Policenaut]

No penalty will deter it sadly but we can at least ensure that there are no repeat offenders.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Lookie' there! I agree with Obama.

The State should never have the right to execute.

Only one of those sentences can be correct. Obama's position implies that the
state should have the right to execute.

[Puppycow]

It's hard for me to think this isn't just Obama sending a "tough-on-crime" political signal. Child rapists are a safe target.

[Texas]

Originally Posted by gdnp

I tend to agree. Child rape is a sickness, which justifies locking up child rapists after they complete their sentences until they are cured. I doubt many child rapists would be deterred. They would, however, be more likely to resist arrest.

BTW, does this include aa16 year old that forces himself on his 15 year old girlfriend? If so, there are going to be a lot of he said/she said rape cases with the death penalty on the line.

How about statutory rape?

I am pro capital punishment for murder BUT this was a good decision and the Lindbergh law is a prime example of how misguided the law that the SCOTUS struck down. You don't threaten capital punishment when it encourages killing the only witness.

[corplinx]

What you have to wonder is, is it triangulation? He doesn't come off a pro-death-penalty guy. Is it real or is it just trying to get elected?

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by corplinx

What you have to wonder is, is it triangulation? He doesn't come off a pro-death-penalty guy. Is it real or is it just trying to get elected?

I'm not a Death Penalty kind of guy, either, but you know I know of people whose cold blooded murder seems worthy of punishment than the rape of a child.

My only reservations are practical;

1. Death penalty cases cost a whole lot more than locking the perp up for life and throwing away the key.

2. The error rate in convictions is just way to high to be absolutely sure you are not killing a convict in error.

[corplinx]

It suspiciously a winning issue with blue collar and union democrats. HANG THEM CHILD MOLESTORS< WHOOOOOWEEEE

I guess he found something other than a bible or a gun to placate their discontent.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Lookie' there! I agree with Obama.

The State should never have the right to execute.

Another bizarre comprehension fail from Jerome the Gnome.

Originally Posted by Obama

While the evidence tells me that the death penalty does little to deter crime, I believe there are some crimes — mass murder, the rape and murder of a child — so heinous, so beyond the pale, that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally Posted by corplinx

What you have to wonder is, is it triangulation? He doesn't come off a pro-death-penalty guy. Is it real or is it just trying to get elected?

Well, the quote above is from The Audacity of Hope, so if he's "triangulating" he's been at it for a while.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by parky76

I am no fan of the death penalty. But I have to agree with Obama.

Child rapists...especially those who do it multiple times to the same child..should be put to death.

Then you are for the death penalty.

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by Policenaut

I know the idea has been around for a while but can't we make Pedo Island and be done with it? A conviction will get you a one way ticket. There is no coming back.

I did a google on "Pedo Island" and got a lot of junk. Please explain what you meant.

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by corplinx

What you have to wonder is, is it triangulation? He doesn't come off a pro-death-penalty guy. Is it real or is it just trying to get elected?

Good question. Now that he's the nominee, he's got to move toward the middle to maximize his election chances. This is one example and his weakness on FISA is another. Sadly, damn near everything he says has to be filtered through the elections lens. Well, the same is true of McCain so we are left with a credibility gap for both candidates. Oh, well, I guess that is SOP in election years.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by corplinx

It suspiciously a winning issue with blue collar and union democrats. HANG THEM CHILD MOLESTORS< WHOOOOOWEEEE

I guess he found something other than a bible or a gun to placate their discontent.

Sure. Of course. Both side play this game. You have to do it because you will lose if you don't.

Quote:

In 1988, a question about rape and capital punishment tripped up Democratic presidential nominee Michael Dukakis.

Dukakis was asked during a nationally televised debate with Republican George H. W. Bush whether he'd still oppose the death penalty if his wife were raped and murdered.

His unemotional, dispassionate answer was ridiculed, and gave Republicans more material to paint him as an emotionless liberal.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Only one of those sentences can be correct. Obama's position implies that the
state should have the right to execute.

That was the point. He is a typical political BS artist.

:13:

[gdnp]

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

That was the point. He is a typical political BS artist.

Only if he has stated he is against the death penalty and for the death penalty for child rapist/murderers.

AFAIK he has stated he is pro-death penalty for some heinous crimes (which would tend to contradict the statement that he is the most liberal member of congress.)

Has he made contradictory statements on this issue? Has he flip-flopped?

If not, your statement that he is "a typical political BS artist" fails.

[Ocelot]

Originally Posted by Policenaut

I know the idea has been around for a while but can't we make Pedo Island and be done with it? A conviction will get you a one way ticket. There is no coming back.

Trouble occurs when an island of child abusers get to breed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcair..._trial_of_2004

Or were you assuming that only males abuse children?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Originally Posted by gdnp

Only if he has stated he is against the death penalty and for the death penalty for child rapist/murderers.

AFAIK he has stated he is pro-death penalty for some heinous crimes (which would tend to contradict the statement that he is the most liberal member of congress.)

Has he made contradictory statements on this issue? Has he flip-flopped?

If not, your statement that he is "a typical political BS artist" fails.

I am completely against the death penalty yet I am commonly called a "right-winger" for most of my ideas on this board.

Does that mean I am a Liberal?


Back to the point. He is; like most politicians, giving a yes answer to both sides of the question.

[Iamme]

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

This particular case had to due with under 12 years of age.

When then becomes the magic year...the magic day of that year, even?

I think the Bible or other religious texts have it about right when they say 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". Rapers should maybe have things cut off...but not killed...with that rule in mind.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by gdnp

I tend to agree. Child rape is a sickness, which justifies locking up child rapists after they complete their sentences until they are cured. I doubt many child rapists would be deterred. They would, however, be more likely to resist arrest.

I see you also attended the Dukakis school of penology. A sex crime multiple offender "cured?" Libs are truly staggering in their capacity to always give the offenders the benefit of the doubt at the expense of the rest of society.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally Posted by Cicero

I see you also attended the Dukakis school of penology. A sex crime multiple offender "cured?" Libs are truly staggering in their capacity to always give the offenders the benefit of the doubt at the expense of the rest of society.

Except that if you read what gdnp actually posted, the conclusion he draws is that they should remain locked up even after completing their sentences. If, as you seem to be suggesting, the cure of such people is rare, that will amount in most cases to a life sentence.

Comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? I wonder what is.

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

... Comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? I wonder what is.

Probably spades.

[MrPuck]

Obama did specifically mention a "small child, 6 or 8 years old". Right or wrong, people tend to feel a little stronger about crimes against small children. Especially parents of little ones. By saying it that way my guess is that he is just trying to pull the heart strings of parents in general. If he can pick up a couple redneck "kill 'em all and let god sort it out" type folks then even better.

I have heard it said that these people can't be rehabilitated. I would be curious to see the stats. What percentage of them re-offend? If it is a truly high percentage then the question of capitol punishment is a no brainer.

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by MrPuck

Obama did specifically mention a "small child, 6 or 8 years old". Right or wrong, people tend to feel a little stronger about crimes against small children. Especially parents of little ones. By saying it that way my guess is that he is just trying to pull the heart strings of parents in general. If he can pick up a couple redneck "kill 'em all and let god sort it out" type folks then even better.

I have heard it said that these people can't be rehabilitated. I would be curious to see the stats. What percentage of them re-offend? If it is a truly high percentage then the question of capitol punishment is a no brainer.

I don't have a cite handy, but its an amazingly high percentage. I think limited only by those who are too ill to re-offend when they leave jail and those who somehow manage to not get caught again.

[Babbylonian]

Originally Posted by MrPuck

I have heard it said that these people can't be rehabilitated. I would be curious to see the stats. What percentage of them re-offend? If it is a truly high percentage then the question of capitol punishment is a no brainer.

Really? Considering the "success" of capital punishment in the US, I'd say that even if 100% re-offend it's still an unproductive (costly, lousy deterrant to crimes based on extreme emotions/mental illness, unevenly applied, etc.) way to address the problem.

Of course, since you're only asking for a "truly high percentage," I wonder how you'd justify killing the truly tiny percentage who might have been rehabilitated.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Except that if you read what gdnp actually posted, the conclusion he draws is that they should remain locked up even after completing their sentences. If, as you seem to be suggesting, the cure of such people is rare, that will amount in most cases to a life sentence.

Comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? I wonder what is.

Since I posted gdnp's quote verbatim, since his point was unambiguous, where is this subtext "conclusion" you say he drew in the quote?
I do not have the liberal decoder ring.

"Cured" means that a psychiatrist is allowed to decide when to release a sex offender, which means that there was no life sentence without the possibility of parole, so there is no such thing as a life sentence in their case. Penology is not your strong suit, is it? Since your misinformed opinions on this subject effect the rest of society, figuring out what is your strong suit is superfluous.

[Piggy]

I agree with Darrow on this point.

If you impose the death penalty for rape (regardless of the victim's age) then the rapist has no incentive not to murder the victim and remove the witness.

That's assuming that the death penalty actually acts as a deterrent. And if it does not, then I see no benefit in that case, either.

I don't see any benefit to anyone if we allow death penalty for child rape, but I do see potential harm.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Since I posted gdnp's quote verbatim, since his point was unambiguous, where is this subtext "conclusion" you say he drew in the quote?

Highlighted below.

Originally Posted by gdnp

I tend to agree. Child rape is a sickness, which justifies locking up child rapists after they complete their sentences until they are cured. I doubt many child rapists would be deterred. They would, however, be more likely to resist arrest.

Duh.

Originally Posted by Cicero

I do not have the liberal decoder ring.

You wrong your fellow-conservatives. Comprehension of basic English is not limited to liberals.

Quote:

"Cured" means that a psychiatrist is allowed to decide when to release a sex offender, which means that there was no life sentence without the possibility of parole, so there is no such thing as a life sentence in their case.

However, since they hardly ever are cured, it would, as I said, "amount in most cases to a life sentence".

Quote:

Penology is not your strong suit, is it? Since your misinformed opinions on this subject effect the rest of society, figuring out what is your strong suit is superfluous.

If you have a point, perhaps you would tell us all what it is?

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

Really? Considering the "success" of capital punishment in the US, I'd say that even if 100% re-offend it's still an unproductive (costly, lousy deterrant to crimes based on extreme emotions/mental illness, unevenly applied, etc.) way to address the problem.

When was capital punishment last used as it was intended? Convicted felons spending 20 years on death row before execution, if ever, is not capital punishment.

The death penalty is cheap. It is the endless appeals that are costly.

Doctors refusing to administer lethal injections on the grounds of cruel and unusual punishment is absurd.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Dr Adequate

Highlighted below.

Duh.

You wrong your fellow-conservatives. Comprehension of basic English is not limited to liberals.

However, since they hardly ever are cured, it would, as I said, "amount in most cases to a life sentence".

If you have a point, perhaps you would tell us all what it is?

What is this agency that "locks up" child rapists after they complete their court ordered sentences? Why were they released from prison in the first place? Why are they not spending their life sentences where they were initially incarcerated? Having them spend their time in a half way house is not the same as maximum security.

Using the word "cured" in conjunction with the offenders is beyond ridiculous even with the silly caveat "hardly ever."

If these already convicted offenders need to be incarcerated after they leave incarceration, why were they released, and if they are repeat offenders, why were they not executed as obama thinks they should be?

[Babbylonian]

Originally Posted by Cicero

When was capital punishment last used as it was intended? Convicted felons spending 20 years on death row before execution, if ever, is not capital punishment.

As it was intended by whom? The Supreme Court? A sometimes bloodthirsty electorate? Politicians vying for election on "law and order" platforms?

Quote:

The death penalty is cheap. It is the endless appeals that are costly.

No doubt. Capital punishment would be a lot cheaper if we stopped worrying so much about whether someone might not deserve it (perhaps by virtue of being innocent, or because they were improperly convicted).

Quote:

Doctors refusing to administer lethal injections on the grounds of cruel and unusual punishment is absurd.

If only everyone would come around in that respect (as regards all forms of capital punishment, not just lethal injection)...

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

As it was intended by whom? The Supreme Court? A sometimes bloodthirsty electorate? Politicians vying for election on "law and order" platforms?

No doubt. Capital punishment would be a lot cheaper if we stopped worrying so much about whether someone might not deserve it (perhaps by virtue of being innocent, or because they were improperly convicted).

If only everyone would come around in that respect (as regards all forms of capital punishment, not just lethal injection)...

Come on. More than five years of appeals to check over whether a person was fairly tried and sentenced? Name one person executed who was found to be innocent?

You are not being intellectually honest. Even if the convicted felon's crimes were on video tape along with their confession, you would not be in favor of executing them, so their guilt or innocence is not even your argument against the death penalty.

"Everyone?" If the criminals would realize that taking lives by the most heinous methods possible might constitute "cruel and unusual" death the criminal justice system would not have a need for the death penalty, or as many prisons either.

[Piggy]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Name one person executed who was found to be innocent?

Are you familiar with The Innocence Project?

Did you read the story just today about a man pardoned posthumously 86 years after being executed for the rape and murder of a child, now exonerated?

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by Piggy

Are you familiar with The Innocence Project?

Hah! But they haven't found anyone innocent AFTER they've been executed!

Quote:

Did you read the story just today about a man pardoned posthumously 86 years after being executed for the rape and murder of a child, now exonerated?

That's Australia, so it doesn't count.