USS Liberty

[roundhead]

I wonder who around here doesnt think Israel didnt intentionally attack this ship, kill US servicemen, and then have our govt cower so as not to make our little buddies mad, in spite of the murder of her own soldiers.




Declaration of
Ward Boston, Jr.,Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.)
Counsel to the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry’s investigation into the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty
Download the Document

Edited by Cuddles:

Breach of rule 4 removed.

[kookbreaker]

So this Boston fellow admits to lying under oath, ignores almost 10 inquiries between his work and this paper, and we are supposed to beleive he speaks the truth?

There's a lot of crud in here. Admiral Kidd's comment about Cristol being an Isreali agent speaks volumes about the Admiral.

It take this with a grain of salt.

http://hnn.us/articles/39936.html

[moon1969]

Ah the joos?????? So arabs never do anything? I guess you are claiming that Hamas is not attacking little kids with kassam rockets? Or maybe Hamas works for Mossad? Of course Hezbollah and Hamas are joos? Hassan Nashrallah is probaly a joo?

[Thunder]

The USS Liberty scandal is as dead as the USS Liberty itself. Move on to something interesting.

[moon1969]

Do you think that Monica Lewinsky was a Mossad agent? And of course then there is that joo Jack Abramoff. Too bad his in jail. I guess there is no conspiracy?

[Cpt.Fantastic]

Hey guys, first time poster ~

I came across this forum having a debate on another forum regarding 9/11, I began with the standpoint that 9/11 may have been an inside job but the facts do not support the case, though I do feel something is being covered up, gross incompetence perhaps.

Anyhow I came across the USS Liberty. A very interesting case indeed, any rational individual can figure out the attack was intentional and that the ship was known to be an US ship.

First I'll say why I think the attack was intentional and why I feel it is idiotic to not see this as the case.

8 Flyovers happened before the attack where the crew report waving to the pilot(s) and having the wave returned, they said they felt rather safe knowing the Isralies knew they where there... This was in the morning and the USS Liberty continued on the same course at around 5 knots.

Remember this was a blue sky day and the US flag was flying high on the ship for all to see. Around two o'clock the attack started, estimates are of around 30 sorties... This wasn't a small attack by any means 'In Malta, crewmen were later assigned the task of
counting all of the holes in the ship that were the size of a man’s hand or larger. They
found a total of 861 such holes, in addition to “thousands” of .50 caliber machine gun
holes.'

After the the Air attack 3 Isreali PT boats fired 6 torpedoes at the USS Liberty and thanks to the commander he missed 5, sadly one did hit killing 25 crew members instantly which tore a hole in the side of the ship under the waterline and seriously compromised the hull.

Additionally after all of this Israeli helicopters showed up with heavily armed men aboard.

You have quite a few reports from numerous credible witnesses saying they heard the communication between the pilots and of the war room... 'It is an American ship... You have your orders... It is an American ship... You have your orders' words to that extent. You also have an Israeli pilot coming forward recently and saying how he was arrested after the incident for failing to carry out his orders...

Quote:

This Report is filed by the USS Liberty Veterans Association, Inc. a California
non-profit corporation, recognized by the Internal Revenue Service as a Section
501(c)(3) tax exempt veterans organization, acting on behalf of the surviving crewmembers
of USS Liberty.

- Fail report link gah first post

Quote:

Findings of the Independent Commission of Inquiry into the Israeli Attack on the USS Liberty, the Recall of Military Rescue Support Aircraft while the Ship was Under Attack, and the Subsequent Cover-up by the United States Government

CAPITOL HILL, WASHINGTON, D.C.
OCTOBER 22, 2003

ADMIRAL THOMAS H. MOORER, UNITED STATES NAVY, (RET.)
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
Chairman, Liberty Alliance

GENERAL RAYMOND G. DAVIS, UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS, (RET.)*
Former Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps
Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient
Vice Chairman, Liberty Alliance

REAR ADMIRAL MERLIN STARING, UNITED STATES NAVY, (RET.)
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy
Director, Liberty Alliance

AMBASSADOR JAMES AKINS, (RET.)
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia
Director, Liberty Alliance

-fail link gah



Failed False Flag Operation? Israel covering up genocide? Something else?

p.s my first post so I cannot put url's in my post... That's handy = / I see why though, dam spammers. If anyone wants the links pm me or so.

[gtc]

Welcome aboard,

You can still post links like this:

www . link . com

[Dave Rogers]

Based on a general appreciation of naval history in the 20th Century, I find it utterly beyond credibility that a competent naval force could attack a lightly armed merchant ship using fighter-bombers and motor torpedo boats and yet leave that ship still afloat. Any kind of co-ordination between the two attacks, or simply equipping the fighters with some kind of anti-shipping weapon, would easily have been able to sink the USS Liberty leaving no survivors. I can understand the survivors still being angry at the deaths of their crewmates, but the conspiracy theory simply doesn't pass the common sense test. Mistakes like this are common in war.

Dave

[gumboot]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Based on a general appreciation of naval history in the 20th Century, I find it utterly beyond credibility that a competent naval force could attack a lightly armed merchant ship using fighter-bombers and motor torpedo boats and yet leave that ship still afloat. Any kind of co-ordination between the two attacks, or simply equipping the fighters with some kind of anti-shipping weapon, would easily have been able to sink the USS Liberty leaving no survivors. I can understand the survivors still being angry at the deaths of their crewmates, but the conspiracy theory simply doesn't pass the common sense test. Mistakes like this are common in war.

Dave

The testimony of the survivors themselves confirms that the torpedo boats approached while signaling (although the crew couldn't tell what the message was because of the smoke from the fires) and that the crew of the Liberty fired on the torpedo boats first.

According to the Israelis the torpedo boats were dispatched to assist the Liberty once it became clear the boat was American, and signaled in accordance with this, upon which the Liberty fired at them so they defended themselves and returned fire.

These two accounts are, in fact, totally consistent with each other.

[kookbreaker]

I would point out to those who claim that misidentification was 'impossible'.

Remember this was not the Isreali front line troops attacking. The planes were the equivalent of the National Guard. They had limited experience with sea-based identification. Seaborne IDing can be very tricky as there is no real basis for size comparison.

Flybys by Isreali planes in the morning are of little relevance to an attack that took place in the afternoon.

For another incident, I would point out that during WW2, during the hunt for the German Ship Bismark, several Swordfish torpedo bombers accidently attacked the HMS Sheffied, a ship with 1/6 the displacement of the Bismark.

So the Swordfish bombers attacked the Shefflield despite:

a) The size difference
b) The much lower speed of the Swordfish
c) The pilots much greater familiarity with the Sheffield

Yet, somehow pilots flying high speed jets are supposed to see a single flag when Swordfish pilots could not spot the British flag on the familiar Sheffield.

This was not the only misidentification incident. Experienced Egyptian pilots misidentified oil tankers as five-times-the-displacement Aircraft Carriers.

[Doctor Evil]

Originally Posted by Cpt.Fantastic

Hey guys, first time poster ~

I came across this forum having a debate on another forum regarding 9/11, I began with the standpoint that 9/11 may have been an inside job but the facts do not support the case, though I do feel something is being covered up, gross incompetence perhaps.

Anyhow I came across the USS Liberty. A very interesting case indeed, any rational individual can figure out the attack was intentional and that the ship was known to be an US ship.

First I'll say why I think the attack was intentional and why I feel it is idiotic to not see this as the case.

8 Flyovers happened before the attack where the crew report waving to the pilot(s) and having the wave returned, they said they felt rather safe knowing the Isralies knew they where there... This was in the morning and the USS Liberty continued on the same course at around 5 knots.

Remember this was a blue sky day and the US flag was flying high on the ship for all to see. Around two o'clock the attack started, estimates are of around 30 sorties... This wasn't a small attack by any means 'In Malta, crewmen were later assigned the task of
counting all of the holes in the ship that were the size of a man’s hand or larger. They
found a total of 861 such holes, in addition to “thousands” of .50 caliber machine gun
holes.'

After the the Air attack 3 Isreali PT boats fired 6 torpedoes at the USS Liberty and thanks to the commander he missed 5, sadly one did hit killing 25 crew members instantly which tore a hole in the side of the ship under the waterline and seriously compromised the hull.

Additionally after all of this Israeli helicopters showed up with heavily armed men aboard.

You have quite a few reports from numerous credible witnesses saying they heard the communication between the pilots and of the war room... 'It is an American ship... You have your orders... It is an American ship... You have your orders' words to that extent. You also have an Israeli pilot coming forward recently and saying how he was arrested after the incident for failing to carry out his orders...



- Fail report link gah first post



-fail link gah



Failed False Flag Operation? Israel covering up genocide? Something else?

p.s my first post so I cannot put url's in my post... That's handy = / I see why though, dam spammers. If anyone wants the links pm me or so.

Even with my meager knowledge I have found some issues with the way you present things.

As was already mentioned, the Israeli Torpedo boats fired only after fired upon, a fact which you do not mention. Not mentioning relevant fact such as this will be frowned upon here.

Next, you mention the Israeli helicopters, and remark

Quote:

Additionally after all of this Israeli helicopters showed up with heavily armed men aboard.

Wow, they had armed men aboard? In war? I am shocked, I tell ya.

More seriously, what is that comment supposed to convey? These helicopters are of interest since their communications with their control tower were intercepted by the NSA. They were declassified in 2003 and you can read the transcripts here.

Note that these transcripts were intercepted after the attack, when these helicopters were sent to investigate and save survivors (under the assumption there were man in water). It is clear that at first the control tower considered the ship to be Egyptian. As far as I know these are the only transcripts of relevant Israeli communications that the NSA had.

Quote:

Failed False Flag Operation? Israel covering up genocide? Something else?

genocide? WTF?
You spring 'teh crazy' at the end. Are you really suggesting Israel was performing genocide are the mostly empty desert.

And false flag? False flag is a name to an operation where you are supposed to blame someone else for the operation. All Israeli units involved were clearly marked.

If you ask for my opinion, I believe that the helicopters transcript give strong evidence that Israeli command had no idea that the ship was a US vessel. Should they have known, possibly. Is it possible that the some Israelis polished the truth to cover their asses, after realizing they messed things? Probably. An example would be the claim of the Torpedo boats commander that they identified the ship and being Egyptian. I think that their behaviour is more consistent with not identifying the ship at all, but that just a speculation.

[MRC_Hans]

I have only studied the accounts of this incident superficially, but to me, it looks like a typical friendly fire accident. In these incidents, which are, and have always been, quite common, it is typical that once a misidentification has happened, and one unit has opened fire, the subsequent units simply follow suit, without even trying to identify the target. After all, they consider it already identified.

A common scenario is also that the target, once attacked, will return the fire, and indeed fire on practically anything in range, confounding the problem.

In other words, the sequence of events is quite consistent with a friendly fire accident.

In contrast, a subversive or false flag operation would rarely involve so many units, especially not both air and sea units. The risk of disclosure is simply too great.

A false flag operation would be aiming at one of two goals:

1) To eliminate the unit. In this case, a single torpedo unit (surface or U-boat) could easily move within firing range under the guise of friendship, fire a volley of torpedoes, then finish off any survivors with guns. Simple and relatively easy, and leaving no witnesses.

2) To provide a provocation, presumably to serve as an excuse for some other action. In this case, there would be no need for a massive attack; a single plane with false markings raking the ship with gunfire and then disappearing would be adequate.

In other words, the scenario fits an accidental attack.

Hans

[~enigma~]

Originally Posted by Cpt.Fantastic

and why I feel it is idiotic to not see this as the case.

Stopped reading here. Have any idea why Sherlock?

[Cpt.Fantastic]

Fantastic, some opposition to disprove.

You're all obviously oblivious as to your ignorance on this matter, I'm glad the bait was seized upon. Don't be offended my friends, alls well.

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Based on a general appreciation of naval history in the 20th Century, I find it utterly beyond credibility that a competent naval force could attack a lightly armed merchant ship using fighter-bombers and motor torpedo boats and yet leave that ship still afloat. Any kind of co-ordination between the two attacks, or simply equipping the fighters with some kind of anti-shipping weapon, would easily have been able to sink the USS Liberty leaving no survivors. I can understand the survivors still being angry at the deaths of their crewmates, but the conspiracy theory simply doesn't pass the common sense test. Mistakes like this are common in war.

Dave

Logic would tell you that wouldn't it? Sadly a lot of the time logic doesn't stand testament to the real world. The 3 Israeli patrol boats had two torpedoes each all of which they fired. Due to the skill of the Capitan/Israeli error he avoided 5 of these torpedoes though one managed to hit doing severe damage to the hull, the ship took on a lot of water but the damage control teams managed to do some DIY.

Additionally the Air Attack lasted for around 25minutes according to the report I have posted below. It involved 12 planes and an estimated 25 sorties. The entire time of which the American flag was raised, this is not in question. The sky was blue and we have reputable people confirmed by the NSA tapes that the Isrealies acknowledged that it was an American ship.

Also to the people claiming that it was mis-identified, have you actually read the sworn testament of the sailors of that ship? One of the most highly decorated crews of one of the most highly decorated ships of the United States Navy. It does not account for the theories put forth by the governments of the United States and of Israel. Nor has there ever been a congressional investigation into the incident despite much objection.

The quotes after are from a report by

ADMIRAL THOMAS H. MOORER, UNITED STATES NAVY, (RET.)
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
Chairman, Liberty Alliance

GENERAL RAYMOND G. DAVIS, UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS, (RET.)*
Former Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps
Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient
Vice Chairman, Liberty Alliance

REAR ADMIRAL MERLIN STARING, UNITED STATES NAVY, (RET.)
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy
Director, Liberty Alliance

AMBASSADOR JAMES AKINS, (RET.)
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia
Director, Liberty Alliance

Quote:

We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel’s attack on the USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following: **

Quote:

That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on the Liberty’s bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

Quote:

That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of the Liberty’s firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty’s life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

Quote:

[3] New evidence of intercepted radio communications between attacking Israeli pilots and the Israeli War Room, recorded by a U.S. Navy EC-121 spy plane, in which the Israeli pilots report seeing the Liberty’s American flag flying, has been collected by investigative author James Bamford - for 9 years the Washington Investigative Producer for ABC’s World News Tonight with Peter Jennings (and author of Body of Secrets, which includes a chapter entitled Blood about the attack on the Liberty). A similar radio message was intercepted by the EC-121 from the Israeli motor torpedo boats. This corroborates statements by surviving crewmembers, by Ambassador Dwight Porter, and by senior National Security Agency officials concerning NSA intercepts of Israeli pilot communications identifying the ship as American.

So hey if you guys want to call me names, please provide evidence to the contrary of these very reputable men.

[Loss Leader]

Got in himmel. The Liberty? Again?

For all the conspiracists out there, let me repeat some basic truths: The USS Liberty was an acknowledged spy ship sitting five miles off of the coast of a war zone after the US had declared that it had no ships in the area. After several inquiries by the US Military, the US Congress, and Israel, all of them agreed it was a friendly fire incident. Israel appologized and paid millions of dollars in damages.

And all of this happened forty-one years ago.

Get over it.

[Cpt.Fantastic]

It was covered up, I know most of you here have your ******** detectors turned to %120 due to the 9/11 movement but read the report by these men, you'll be surprised what happened.

That and hear/read the testimony of the crew.

[Doctor Evil]

Here is a report of the incident by an Israeli historian. He actually give the name of one of the Isaeli pilots invloved, which had talked about the incident recently.

Quote:

The torpedo boats gave chase, but even at their maximum speed of 36 knots, they did not expect to overtake their target before it reached Egypt. Rahav therefore alerted the air force, and two Mirage III fighters were diverted from the Suez Canal, northeast to the sea. When they arrived, the vessel they saw was "gray with two guns in the forecastle, a mast and funnel." Making two passes at 3,000 feet, formation commander Capt. Spector (IDF records do not provide pilots' first names) reckoned that the ship was a "Z" or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy. Spector then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. The answer was "Negative." Nor were there any distinguishing marks other than some "black letters" painted on the hull.
IAF Intelligence Chief Col. Yeshayahu Bareket also claimed to have contacted American Naval Attaché Castle at this point in an attempt to ascertain whether the suspect ship was the Liberty, but the latter professed no knowledge of the Liberty's schedule - a claim later denied by Castle but, strangely, confirmed by McGonagle.24 One fact is clear, however: After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack.
The first salvos caught the Liberty's crew in "stand-down" mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle. Radio operators on board found most of their frequencies inoperable and barely managed to send an SOS to the Sixth Fleet. The Mirages made three strafing runs and were then joined by two additional aircraft, Israeli Super-Mysteres returning from the Mitla Pass with a payload of napalm. After fourteen minutes of action, the pilots reported having made good hits - over eight hundred holes would later be counted in the hull. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.
Throughout these sorties, no one aboard the Liberty suspected that the planes were Israeli. Indeed, rumors spread that the attackers were Egyptian MiGs. After the first strike, the visibility that had enabled crewmen to identify IAF reconnaissance craft earlier in the day was lost to the smoke of battle. One of the Israeli pilots, curious as to why the vessel had not returned fire, made a final pass at ninety feet. "I see no flag," he told headquarters. "But there are markings on the hull - Charlie-Tango-Romeo-five."25
While Egyptian naval ships were known to disguise their identities with Western markings, they usually displayed Arabic letters and numbers only. The fact that the ship had Western markings led Rabin to fear that it was Soviet, and he immediately called off the jets. Two IAF Hornet helicopters were sent to look for survivors - Spector had reported seeing men overboard - while the torpedo boat squadron was ordered to hold its fire pending further attempts at identification. Though that order was recorded in the torpedo boat's log, Oren claimed he never received it.26 It was now 2:20 in the afternoon; twenty-four minutes would pass before the squadron made contact with the Liberty.

As you can see, everyone agrees that the Israeli planes hit the Liberty many times. This claim is not under contention and does not help one determine whether this was a friendly fire incident, or an intentional attack. The report seems to contradict the claims that there were 12 planes involved (mentions 4 planes).

[Cpt.Fantastic]

Doctor Evil, there are only two sides to this story.

It's either the Israelis where right up next to the vessel shooting firefighters and stretcher bearers or that it was a mistake.

The 10 American reports and the 4 Israeli reports all commissioned by the government all say it was a friendly fire accident.

The only independent investigation(blue-ribbon) by the men I've listed say all of those reports are wrong.

[roundhead]

The most telling fact here, and it was barely mentioned, is that the Israeli boats were machine gunning Liberty lifeboats at a range of 50-75 yards.

Do you know how large the letters are on the bow of an American ship.

The name can be seen with the naked eye easily several hundred yards away. I have identified many ships entering port at Norfolk in this way. And i err on the side of caution.

Anybody who thinks the boats directly standing by the ship, could not be identified by merely reading the name of the ship , is insane.


Then of course we have air assets on the way to rescue the ship being intentionally turned back by LBJ.

The fact the Israeli's were aware of incoming help is why they left. They in no way intended to leave any survivors or the ship still afloat.

Of course we also have Admiral Mc Cain refusing to allow anybody from the court of inquiry to go to Israel to question anybody. That is criminal.


US Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head, Admiral Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate and designed to sink 'Liberty.' So did three CIA reports; one asserted Israel's Defense Minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had personally ordered the attack.



The attack on 'Liberty' was fading into obscurity until last week, when intelligence expert James Bamford came out with Body of Secrets, his latest book about the National Security Agency. In a stunning revelation, Bamford writes that unknown to Israel, a US Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft was flying high overhead the 'Liberty,' electronically recorded the attack. The US aircraft crew provides evidence that the Israeli pilots knew full well that they were attacking a US Navy ship flying the American flag.

[Doctor Evil]

Originally Posted by Cpt.Fantastic

Doctor Evil, there are only two sides to this story.

It's either the Israelis where right up next to the vessel shooting firefighters and stretcher bearers or that it was a mistake.

The 10 American reports and the 4 Israeli reports all commissioned by the government all say it was a friendly fire accident.

The only independent investigation(blue-ribbon) by the men I've listed say all of those reports are wrong.

Look, its clear that this investigation was form since the people involved disagreed with the result of the previous 14 investigations. You can call it independent as it had nothing to do with the government, but it would take some motivation to re-investigate this incident again. In any case, the identity of the people in the commission, or their motivation is to the issue here. The evidence is the issue here.

You qoute:

Quote:

[3] New evidence of intercepted radio communications between attacking Israeli pilots and the Israeli War Room, recorded by a U.S. Navy EC-121 spy plane, in which the Israeli pilots report seeing the Liberty’s American flag flying, has been collected by investigative author James Bamford - for 9 years the Washington Investigative Producer for ABC’s World News Tonight with Peter Jennings (and author of Body of Secrets, which includes a chapter entitled Blood about the attack on the Liberty). A similar radio message was intercepted by the EC-121 from the Israeli motor torpedo boats. This corroborates statements by surviving crewmembers, by Ambassador Dwight Porter, and by senior National Security Agency officials concerning NSA intercepts of Israeli pilot communications identifying the ship as American.

The only transcripts I was able to find, which were declassified in 2003, are not those. In fact, they point in the other direction. Your quote implies that other transcript exist and are known, Can you find a link to these? (Mind, not a link to someone who heard about them. A link to the transcripts.) The transcript I have cited clearly show that the control tower directing the helicopters considered the ship to be Egyptian. This is primary evidence, which was recorded at that time.

[Loss Leader]

Originally Posted by roundhead

The most telling fact here, and it was barely mentioned, is that the Israeli boats were machine gunning Liberty lifeboats at a range of 50-75 yards.

It's hardly a "fact." Not even the survivors of the Liberty agree that this happened. And it was forty-one years ago.

[roundhead]

Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal of Honor for his and his men's heroism – not in the White House, as is usual, but in an obscure ceremony at the Washington Navy Yard. Crew member's graves were inscribed, 'died in the Eastern Mediterranean..' as if they had be killed by disease, rather than hostile action.

[~enigma~]

Someone tell me that bringing up anti-Israel baloney 41 years after the fact isn't rooted FIRMLY in anti-semitism and in my opinion isn't far removed from holocaust denial. The OP is on ignore...

[Doctor Evil]

Originally Posted by roundhead

Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal of Honor for his and his men's heroism – not in the White House, as is usual, but in an obscure ceremony at the Washington Navy Yard. Crew member's graves were inscribed, 'died in the Eastern Mediterranean..' as if they had be killed by disease, rather than hostile action.

Since Israel never denied that it had attacked the ship, and in fact, paid compensations, this bears no light on the nature of the incident. At best this is a complaint about the way the US navy dealt with its casualties and survivors. Was that the purpose of this post?

[Loss Leader]

Originally Posted by roundhead

Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal of Honor for his and his men's heroism – not in the White House, as is usual, but in an obscure ceremony at the Washington Navy Yard. Crew member's graves were inscribed, 'died in the Eastern Mediterranean..' as if they had be killed by disease, rather than hostile action.

Considering the fact that the it was an intelligence ship on a secret intelligence mission, how strange is it that the crew members' graves don't give more detail? Are the details of intelligence missions usually spelled out on gravestones?

Also, considering the fact that Israel admitted to attacking the Liberty and paid millions of dollars in damages, why are the gravestones evidence of anything? There can't passibly have been a cover-up as to their cause of death because Israel admitted it.

[~enigma~]

Originally Posted by Doctor Evil

Was that the purpose of this post?

To convince the naive and weak brained that Israel is evil because they are run by a zionist government so it is justified to hate, persecute and I personally wouldn't be surprised if this Aryan ******* said kill jews.

[Donal]

Quote:

The 10 American reports and the 4 Israeli reports all commissioned by the government all say it was a friendly fire accident.

The only independent investigation(blue-ribbon) by the men I've listed say all of those reports are wrong.

So why is the one that opposes the others the right one?

[roundhead]

This feature article, from 2007 in the Chicago Tribune very ably sums up the event.

Read it carefully and note the corraborating witnesses who state Israel was well aware of what and whom they were attacking.
And contrary to a previous posters assertions, she was 13 miles out at sea when the attack began, in international waters.




New revelations in attack on American spy ship
Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn't tell full story of deadly '67 incident

By John Crewdson | Tribune senior correspondent
October 2, 2007

Edited by Cuddles:

Breach of rule 4 removed.

[kookbreaker]

Your 'Blue Ribbon Panel' was self-selected, which invalidates any objectivity they might have had. In addition, Adm. Moorer has always been anti-Isreali, and quite frankly a bit of a rabid anti-communist.

Furthermore, the man is a political nutbar. He 'predicted' a Chinese takeover of the Panama Canal would take place immediately after we turned the canal over to the government of Panama, and bitterly criticized Bill Clinton for upholding a treaty! Moorer has also fallen for TWA800 conspiracy theories and a load of other nonsense. His claims about the Liberty are nothing more than opinion, not backed with evidence.

However, under his watch as CNO, Moorer approved one of the US Court Navy findings! Such hypocrisy! He would have had to been part of the coverup he so codemned! Not much a patriot if he won't stick his neck out when his political career was on the line!

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by roundhead

How the Israeli attack unfolded Graphic "They tried to lie their way out of it!" Lockwood shouts. "I don't believe that for a minute! You just don't shoot at a ship at sea without identifying it, making sure of your target!"

----------

Yeah, right. Tell that to the HMS Shefflield, or Iran Flight 655.

[Donal]

Originally Posted by roundhead

Do you know how large the letters are on the bow of an American ship.

The name can be seen with the naked eye easily several hundred yards away. I have identified many ships entering port at Norfolk in this way. And i err on the side of caution.

Anybody who thinks the boats directly standing by the ship, could not be identified by merely reading the name of the ship , is insane.

How many of those boats were you engaged in a fire fight with?

[roundhead]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

Yeah, right. Tell that to the HMS Shefflield, or Iran Flight 655.

Little different situation dont you think regarding the Sheffield. Weather, etc.

These Torpedo boats machine gunned guys at CLOSE range.

People bring up Moorer's background, but that hardly affect the corraborated testimony of a number of military people(who didnt know each other)who heard the exact same reports and came to the exact same conclusions.

Any defender of Israel in this incident is beyond help. As i said, creafully read the article. Do you feel she wasnt flying the flag and all the corraborated reports of pilots asking for confirmation to attack arent ably supported is loony, and anti American .

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by Cpt.Fantastic

You're all obviously oblivious as to your ignorance on this matter, I'm glad the bait was seized upon. Don't be offended my friends, alls well.

I'm not your friend, and if you're going to continue to be this patronising the situation is unlikely to change.

Originally Posted by Cpt.Fantastic

Logic would tell you that wouldn't it? Sadly a lot of the time logic doesn't stand testament to the real world. The 3 Israeli patrol boats had two torpedoes each all of which they fired. Due to the skill of the Capitan/Israeli error he avoided 5 of these torpedoes though one managed to hit doing severe damage to the hull, the ship took on a lot of water but the damage control teams managed to do some DIY.

Additionally the Air Attack lasted for around 25minutes according to the report I have posted below. It involved 12 planes and an estimated 25 sorties. The entire time of which the American flag was raised, this is not in question. The sky was blue and we have reputable people confirmed by the NSA tapes that the Isrealies acknowledged that it was an American ship.

Also to the people claiming that it was mis-identified, have you actually read the sworn testament of the sailors of that ship? One of the most highly decorated crews of one of the most highly decorated ships of the United States Navy. It does not account for the theories put forth by the governments of the United States and of Israel. Nor has there ever been a congressional investigation into the incident despite much objection.

Taking these in reverse order:

Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is to dispute the identification of the ship based on the testimony of the crew? They are the last people in a position to understand what the pilots did and did not see. And what possible relevance do their decorations have to the argument? Should the pilots have been dazzled by the medal ribbons? Misidentification is common in warfare, even in apparently ideal conditions. When your life depends on being certain that the target isn't hostile if you don't attack, it's easy to err on the side of survival.

Your suggestion that the air attack involved 12 planes and 25 sorties indicates either a lack of understanding of military jargon or a willingness to believe the impossible. By "sorties", do you really mean complete missions from takeoff to landing, or do you mean strafing runs? If the former, your position is absurd. If the latter, then it's completely inconsistent with the idea of a sneak attack to sink the ship without anyone knowing; 25 strafing runs without a kill makes is quite clear that the planes weren't equipped for anti-shipping operations. A squadron of Beaufighters in 1944 would have been ashamed of a result like that; they wouldn't have needed more than a single pass each with cannon and rockets to sink a ship the size and construction of the Liberty.

As for the torpedo boats, if the idea was to sink the Liberty, why did they wait till after the air attack when there was no possibility of surprise? The only chance the Liberty could have had was to avoid the torpedoes, and surprise would have made that very much harder. And why do you persist in refusing to admit that the PT boats only attacked after the Liberty had fired on them, as the crew of the Liberty admit?

Finally, you've carefully sidestepped the point that two separate, unco-ordinated attacks are far less likely to succeed than a single simultaneous attack from sea and air. As usual with conspiracy theorists, you require your conspirators to be simultaneously fiendishly clever and laughably incompetent.

Dave

[Big Les]

This has been done to death here already.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...6&goto=newpost
http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-9531.html
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=12199
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=71596
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=76069

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by roundhead

Little different situation dont you think regarding the Sheffield. Weather, etc.

These Torpedo boats machine gunned guys at CLOSE range.

The PT boats believed the Liberty was American when they closed to offer assistance. When the Liberty started shooting at them, who knows what they thought? They fired back.

Dave

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by roundhead

Little different situation dont you think regarding the Sheffield. Weather, etc.

Different situation? Sure! The pliots were flying much slower Swordfish biplane torpedo bombers, rather than high speed jet planes, and they were much, much, much more familiar with the Sheffield than the Isreali pilots were with the Liberty.

Weather? It was good enough to fly biplanes in. Good enough to find targets.

As for Iran Air 665, how much better weather do you want?

Quote:

These Torpedo boats machine gunned guys at CLOSE range.

No. They did not. The torpedo boats didn't get closer than 2000 yards. They launched torpedoes when fired upon (probably by accident).

Read the Liberty's logs:

http://www.libertyincident.com/docs/Logs1-24.pdf

Quote:

People bring up Moorer's background, but that hardly affect the corraborated testimony of a number of military people(who didnt know each other)who heard the exact same reports and came to the exact same conclusions.

And even more realise that this was a tragic accident. It is funny how the nutjobs seem to rise to the top of the cream in the 'they dun it on purpose' crowd, eh?

Quote:

Any defender of Israel in this incident is beyond help. As i said, creafully read the article. Do you feel she wasnt flying the flag and all the corraborated reports of pilots asking for confirmation to attack arent ably supported is loony, and anti American .

She was flying the flag. Just as the HMS Shefflield was flying the Union Jack.

I don't bother with biased, assumptive articles, I work with source material when possible. Liberty has tons of source material:

http://www.libertyincident.com/documents.html

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

The PT boats believed the Liberty was American when they closed to offer assistance. When the Liberty started shooting at them, who knows what they thought? They fired back.

Dave

The Torpedo boats, by all the logs and evidence, never got closer than 2000 yards. They attempted to signal, but smoke obscured the Liberty signal. The Liberty fired at the Torpedo boats and they in turn launched torpedoes.

I don't consider 2000 yards to be close range in small boat tactics.

[roundhead]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

The PT boats believed the Liberty was American when they closed to offer assistance. When the Liberty started shooting at them, who knows what they thought? They fired back.

Dave

The fired a friggin torpedo, in fact a few of them. Remember the ship had alreday been attacked an napalmed when the PT boats showed up. The hull number on the bow would be visible from quite a ways off, certainly from machine gun range. The "5" on the bow is clearly as big as the anchor.

Its an ancillary point. There is irrefutable proof that the planes knew exactly who she was, and in fact asked for direction after verifing that fcat

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by roundhead

The fired a friggin torpedo, in fact a few of them. Remember the ship had alreday been attacked an napalmed when the PT boats showed up. The hull number on the bow would be visible from quite a ways off, certainly from machine gun range. The "5" on the bow is clearly as big as the anchor.

And the Egyptians would never think to paint a number 5 on the bow of one of their ships, because they don't use Arabic numbers. Hang on...

But who cares? The PT boats were fighting a war. When someone shoots at you, and you're not certain they're on your side, you fire back until they stop, with whatever you've got.

Originally Posted by roundhead

Its an ancillary point. There is irrefutable proof that the planes knew exactly who she was, and in fact asked for direction after verifing that fcat

So the guys back at control screwed up. That's pretty much the story Israel admitted to and paid compensation for, isn't it?

Dave

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by roundhead

Its an ancillary point. There is irrefutable proof that the planes knew exactly who she was, and in fact asked for direction after verifing that fcat

Wrong. The helicoptor pilots may have done that, but not the pilots of the planes.

Present this 'irrefutable proof', if you don't mind.