The deadly potential of dowsing

[Achán hiNidráne]

I work as a call center operator for my states' "one-call" service. That is, when homeowners or contractors wish to excavate for a construction project, they are required to call us to arrange to have their buried utility lines marked before they start working. In the two years I've worked for Digger's Hotline, I've taken thousands of calls to request locates for every type of project from decks, swimming, pools, freeway construction projects, archaeological digs, and even one murder investigation.

Monday, I had my second strangest call yet:

An old codger up in the northern portion of the states had called because he wanted to build a pole-shed on his lot. He seemed to resent the idea of having to call us because he was SURE that there were no underground utilities buried on his work site. Regardless, I started to take down his information to process a standard locate request. Then, he asks me...

(Rustic Wisconsin Accent) "Eh, why don' I calls one of dem dere water witches wit da rods?"

Not entirely sure I understood what he meant, I asked him if he was taking about a dowser. He was, and he was convinced that they worked because he knew of a neighbor who had used one to find a telephone line and he was able to find it "where ever da rods crossed."

I was dumbfounded. I tried to explain that dowsing had been debunked time and time again, but he was convinced they HAD to work. Trying to keep my temper--nothing angers me more than blatant stupidity--I went through the rest the request with him and got him off the line before I said something that could have gotten me fired.

When I got home, I did a quick check on the internet. Sure enough, the woo sites proclaim dowsings efficacy in finding underground utility lines. Part of me was amazed. The rest of me was disgusted. Why does the government allow these frauds to pull this crap?

While it seems pretty mundane, utility location is SERIOUS business. First of all, many of our society's vital telecommunications lines (phone, cable tv, fiber optic, etc) are buried underground. Damaging those lines cost thousands of dollars to repair as well as inconveniences individuals and business who rely on those networks. More importantly, cutting into an energized electrical line or pressurized gas line can be potentially fatal. Just a couple of years ago in Door County, a couple killed themselves in an explosion caused when they cut into an unmarked private propane line. Earlier this winter, several blocks of downtown Milwaukee had to be evacuated because some moron cut into a high-pressure natural gas line without calling in a locate request first.

The fellow who had spoken to me, was willing to risk having to pay thousands in fines and repair costs and/or get himself injured or killed because he prefers the "expertise" of a charlatan with a couple of wire rods rather than a professional locater with modern, electronic detection equipment?

I don't get it... I just don't get it...

(What was my strangest call of all? It was some paranoid who refused to give me his information because he believed that we used it to send the "helicopters" out to spy on him. After an hour spent of trying to drag his address out of him and listening to his inane non sequitur ramblings, he asked me to warn the locate crews to be careful because he's heard Bigfoot howling around the area of his work site a few nights before.)

[Ranb]

When my water pressure dropped a lot, one of the local utility workers whipped out his dowsing rod to mark out the path between the reducer and the house so I could dig up and replace the line. He actually marked out a direct path from the electric meter to the garage breaker box. I got a crew that did not rely on wishful thinking to mark the water line a few days later. The dowser was off by quite a bit when marking the water path.

When I called the utility to warn them of the potentially dangerous work practice, they said they would look into it.

Ranb

[X]

Definately a bad idea.

Somebody's going to get hurt, and even then people will probably brush it off.


As it stands, every year there several incidents of power or water lines being hit while digging. And that's just counting the ones where the comapny came by and plotted the area they supposed the lines to be.

Letting somebody whose only assurance is "I believe in what I'm doing" take over is a recipe for disaster.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Originally Posted by [X]

Letting somebody whose only assurance is "I believe in what I'm doing" take over is a recipe for disaster.

I more or less hear that attitude from many callers who don't believe they have to call DHL in the first place. They KNOW where their lines are they don't need to waste 3 business days to wait to have a locate repeated.

Then they slice through a fiber optics conduit and end up having to pay thousands of dollars in repairs.

The woo is merely a new angle to this old story. Arrogance I can understand (I think...), but the magical thinking just pushes this over the line. It's the 21st century for Zeus' sake! Start acting like it people!

[Boo]

Working in a medical office I get a fair number of calls from patients who have had cold or allergy symptoms for several weeks asking for antibiotics after they tried Airborne and other homeopathic "remedies" and they are still sick. They won't take any of the over the counter medication (Loratidine, etc.) because "it doesn't work". In their view if the homeopathic pills don't cure them then obviously they need antibiotics.


I've tried explaining once or twice that Airborne and similar products don't have any medication in them but it becomes an exercise in teaching pigs to sing.



Boo

[Cuddles]

To be honest, I'm just surprised you haven't had a lot more of that kind of call.

[Ysidro]

Mark, do you have any articles on that explosion or other cases? I'm thinking that would be a good update for krelnik's website.

[Psiload]

If a person chooses to stick a shovel into the ground on a site that has been "cleared" by a dowser, they should be allowed to do so.

Best to just sit back, keep quiet, and watch Darwin work his magic.

[krelnik]

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

While it seems pretty mundane, utility location is SERIOUS business. ....(snip)....cutting into an energized electrical line or pressurized gas line can be potentially fatal.

Originally Posted by Ranb

I got a crew that did not rely on wishful thinking to mark the water line a few days later. The dowser was off by quite a bit when marking the water path.

Originally Posted by [X]

As it stands, every year there several incidents of power or water lines being hit while digging. And that's just counting the ones where the company came by and plotted the area they supposed the lines to be.

Originally Posted by Ysidro

Mark, do you have any articles on that explosion or other cases? I'm thinking that would be a good update for krelnik's website.

Yes, I would absolutely love to have a dowsing category, if we can document appropriate cases. Heck, even a case where someone used it to locate water, hired a well drilling crew, and wasted a bunch of money would be good too.

I especially like adding categories like this because its somewhat non-obvious to some people. I.e. with alt-medical stuff even an armchair skeptic can kind of guess how someone might get themselves in trouble.

But an otherwise skeptical person might really think 'whats the harm in dowsing?' and honestly mean it, thinking the worst case scenario is a dry well. Clearly the worst case scenario is far worse: death by electrocution leaps to mind.

I'm sure we could find such cases if we look hard enough.

[Nursefoxfire]

I thought I was going to read about someone poking an eye out with a dowsing rod, darn!

[krelnik]

LOL!

I decided to do a little googling to see if I could come up with a case, and I found one that has both dowsing and homeopathy! (Not exactly chocolate and peanut butter).

BBC News: GP 'dowsed for homeopathic remedy' (Jan 15, 2003)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2662879.stm

Quote:

A mother was told by her GP that her 11-month-old daughter's illness may have been caused by geopathic stress patterns beneath her home.
Bethan Jinkinson claimed Dr Michelle Langdon then used the practice of dowsing to select a homeopathic remedy for her daughter, Kira, who had a stomach upset.

Quote:

The GMC's professional conduct committee heard that Kira was taken to the accident and emergency department of University College Hospital later that day, where she was diagnosed as suffering from gastroenteritis

She eventually got a three month ban:

BBC News: Three-month ban for homeopathy GP (Jan. 16, 2003)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2666411.stm

There were actually two other patients involved, so there's two dowsing/homeopathy cases (and one solely homeopathy case) right there.

Find me another case involving a well or buried utilities, guys, to round out the dowsing category....

[grayman]

Krelnik, here's a couple of dowsing sites:

An article from Nebraska:

Quote:

“There’s oil in that [SOB],” he said while holding a plastic dowsing rod with a vial of oil attached to it. “I just know it.”

A thread on dowsing:

Quote:

Your granddad is a true dowser. He used a true dowsing tool. It does not work mystically but scientifically.
This is the method that was passed through generation.

And here's where you can learn dowsing, for just $179.99! And it "Includes FREE training support and the exclusive Dowsing the Lottery bonus feature!"

[Normal Dude]

Originally Posted by Mark A. Siefert

(What was my strangest call of all? It was some paranoid who refused to give me his information because he believed that we used it to send the "helicopters" out to spy on him. After an hour spent of trying to drag his address out of him and listening to his inane non sequitur ramblings, he asked me to warn the locate crews to be careful because he's heard Bigfoot howling around the area of his work site a few nights before.)

Sounds like Historian is digging a bunker.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Originally Posted by Ysidro

Mark, do you have any articles on that explosion or other cases? I'm thinking that would be a good update for krelnik's website.

I wish I could. So far my Google searches have been for naught.

I did speak with my immediate supervisor this morning about the situation though and what I should do in the extremely unlikely chance I run into it again. He told me that I should remind such callers that state law does not recognize the activities of dowers and that utility locates must be done with approved methods.

So, at least there is that.

[tapman]

Sorry, I can top this story.

My wife and I were in the beginning stage of building our new home. We called all the utilities in to be flagged on the street so we would have no problems when excavating. We just happened to be at the lot when the public service truck pulled up to mark where the water line ended. I swear to Dog the guy jumped out of his government truck with two metal rods in his hands. He proceeded t walk around where the property line was until the rods crossed. He then flagged the spot saying to my wife and I that we could start our Water line at this spot. TRUE STORY.

[dustbunny]

Just goes to show the power of belief. Some people just won't budge!

[Olowkow]

Here is "scientific proof of dowsing"!!! Good for a laugh. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

http://blog.hasslberger.com/2007/02/...f_dowsing.html

Oh yes, Ohm's law is I=E. Million dollar challenge here we come.

[imjohn]

I've seen the dowsing rods used to find broken water pipes and wells.

The broken lines took a lot of digging. As far as the wells go this whole area is sitting on three different aquifers at different depths. It's almost impossible to drill a dry well out here.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Speaking of dowsing, I was recently reminded of an incident from my childhood that I hadn't thought about in years.

When we were kids, our parents used to frequently send us to Poland for summer vacation. When I was 12 and my sister was 10 or 11, they sent us to a summer camp in a region of Poland known for its mountains, skiing resorts, its mineral ores and it's local legends:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szklarska_Por%C4%99ba

One day the camp counselors took us to a local folklorist/ dowser/ shaman/ mineral ore expert, I presume as entertainment. Absolutely crazy old bearded man in a wheelchair with the voice of either a life long alcocholic or smoker. I think he told us he was a miner who was disabled in a collapse or explosion but I can't be sure.

He told us about local legends and mining culture and explained the differences between various semi-precious stones and then singled out all the redhaired girls- me, my sister and someone else- for a little show and tell.

He went on about how redhaired women in the region are believed to be endowed with special powers for locating semi-precious stones, water and gold and silver and about the various rituals performed upon them in the days of old, including something about cutting their feet and forcing them to walk across jagged rock barefoot and blindfolded.

He then proceeded to "tell fortunes" by having us redheads kneel on our knees before him and pressing precious stones and talismans to our skin. If I remember correctly, he told me that I was very mischievous and troublesome (not true! ) and that I had very special powers of locating deeply buried treasure (as far as I've ever been able to tell, not true ).

He made a big show out of me in particular for some reason and gave me many talismans and semi-precious stones as souvenirs. At the time I was intrigued by the idea of perhaps having a paranormal connection to the earth (I addition to being a ginger, I'm also of partial Silesian descent, my father being half-Polish and half-Silesian. Allthough my grandfather's family was not from that region) but now I'm just relieved no one tried to cut open my feet.

What an idea, taking young children to a witch doctor. Even if it was intended as entertainment or experiencing local culture, I'd never let any child under my supervision near a crazy wino handing out talismans.

[Paulhoff]

I'm just wating for edge to show up.

Paul

[skepticpagan]

Water main leak in the Lakewood area of Dallas, TX. They had a back hoe, two service/parts trucks, and the street blocked off. What do they use to find the main? Dowsing rods...

If you're smart, you'll never wonder how tax dollars are spent. Those guys are professionals at milking the clock. One guy digging and five guys standing around. That's the way it is. I just hope they use coat hangers instead of buying the "professional" dowsing rods online.

[Paulhoff]

Originally Posted by skepticpagan

Water main leak in the Lakewood area of Dallas, TX. They had a back hoe, two service/parts trucks, and the street blocked off. What do they use to find the main? Dowsing rods...

If you're smart, you'll never wonder how tax dollars are spent. Those guys are professionals at milking the clock. One guy digging and five guys standing around. That's the way it is. I just hope they use coat hangers instead of buying the "professional" dowsing rods online.

Yea, no one in private industry would ever use dowers.

Paul

[fishbait]

Heard a story last week about a dowser who supposedly located water which turned out to be too near a newly installed septic system to pass local health codes. The dowser drove an iron spike into the ground at the spot then banged on the side of the pipe with a hammer claiming he had moved the water to a location in compliance with the code.

Mind boggling.

[Paulhoff]

Next they will be writting a book and saying that some so-called god had something to do with it.

Paul

[Old Bob]

Dowsing works if done by the right people, unfortunately many have one or two successes and then lose their way. All the neg. is shouted from the hilltop while the achievements go unknown. Understanding what we are dealing with is a cultural bomb, as it borders on witch craft in westerners minds. All the wonder about earth rays magnet power etc working the rods is hype, and doesn't help the cause. The dowser thinks of his target, water flowing, black phone lines or what ever and ( here is the clincher) he, she, expands his, her thoughts to remotely see the hidden target ,third eye stuff. I can select my target and ignore all others. Optus had me marking water mains just last week so to dodge digging them up with a new trench. One thing that spoils dowsing is material gain, that is why good psychic only require a donation. They don't want to be distracted with money.

[Paulhoff]

Originally Posted by Old Bob

Dowsing works if done by the right people, unfortunately............

No, dowsing does not work, Randi's million is still in the bank.

Paul

[Civilized Worm]

Ah, but that's because the good psychics "don't want to be distracted with money"!

[Olowkow]

Originally Posted by Old Bob

Dowsing works if done by the right people, .... One thing that spoils dowsing is material gain, that is why good psychic only require a donation. They don't want to be distracted with money.

I can't speak for JREF, but I doubt that Randi would mind if you agreed to do a test and agree beforehand that you would not do it for the million. Or just for a small donation for your travel expenses if you win. That would take the pressure off, and still convince a lot of people all over the world that you are right. All you have to do is apply.

[AntiTelharsic]

Originally Posted by Old Bob

One thing that spoils dowsing is material gain

How does that work?

[Old Bob]

Originally Posted by Olowkow

I can't speak for JREF, but I doubt that Randi would mind if you agreed to do a test and agree beforehand that you would not do it for the million. Or just for a small donation for your travel expenses if you win. That would take the pressure off, and still convince a lot of people all over the world that you are right. All you have to do is apply.

Yes, bring the test to me. I won't put up with nasty uniforms at the airports and as for getting a pass port, they can stick it. The one think I can't seem to get across is that right up to the seventeen century any one who had psychic abilities was got rid of,(witch hunt) now we are dosed with neurotoxins to do the same job. To foster psychic people would be a threat to the PTB. And if you are dosed you just can't take the possibility on.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Old Bob

Yes, bring the test to me. I won't put up with nasty uniforms at the airports and as for getting a pass port, they can stick it. The one think I can't seem to get across is that right up to the seventeen century any one who had psychic abilities was got rid of,(witch hunt) now we are dosed with neurotoxins to do the same job. To foster psychic people would be a threat to the PTB. And if you are dosed you just can't take the possibility on.

Whatever.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by Old Bob

Yes, bring the test to me. I won't put up with nasty uniforms at the airports and as for getting a pass port, they can stick it. The one think I can't seem to get across is that right up to the seventeen century any one who had psychic abilities was got rid of,(witch hunt) now we are dosed with neurotoxins to do the same job. To foster psychic people would be a threat to the PTB. And if you are dosed you just can't take the possibility on.

Read this to find out about the challenge. http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html

[grayman]

Originally Posted by Old Bob

Blah...blah...blah...

Always an excuse why they can't take the challenge.

[Capt.Nemo]

Bob, a little reading of the site and the fora will show you that most testing is done close to or at the location of the applicant. There's nearly always a group of helpful skeptics nearby.

As rjh01 suggested above, read about the challenge, read the rules, read the FAQ if you're interested to see some examples and then apply. Applying doesn't take a lot of time, after all. Thrashing out the final protocol for your application may take a while, however.

The problem of personal/financial gain is easily solvable. Waiving the prize has been done before, I think. Another, oft suggested, way is to donate the prize to any cause you feel is appropriate. Grateful as they will undoubtedly be, I'm sure they will reimburse you for any expenses incurred along the way.

If you're the applicant, please do it. If you're merely the witness to working dowsing, please consider talking the dowser into the benefits of performing under controlled conditions once or, hopefully, twice.

I for one would love to see it - it would completely rock the foundations of some sciences. Pretty cool stuff!

Time to sharpen our pencils and take note - or possibly start ticking off the checklist...

[Mercutio]

Gas or electric ain't nuthin'. There are folks advocating dowsing for landmines. You know, "to protect the children of war-torn villages". And, presumably, to sell dowsing pendulums.

At the U., I have witnessed the groundskeepers locate a buried pipe using the detailed blueprints the gubmint has painstakingly put together... then "verify" the location of said pipe with a pair of bent wires.

*sigh*

[Mashuna]

Originally Posted by Mercutio

At the U., I have witnessed the groundskeepers locate a buried pipe using the detailed blueprints the gubmint has painstakingly put together... then "verify" the location of said pipe with a pair of bent wires.

*sigh*

It would be impressive if they could do that the other way round.

[Paulhoff]

Originally Posted by Old Bob

Yes, bring the test to me. I won't put up with nasty uniforms at the airports and as for getting a pass port, they can stick it. The one think I can't seem to get across is that right up to the seventeen century any one who had psychic abilities was got rid of,(witch hunt) now we are dosed with neurotoxins to do the same job. To foster psychic people would be a threat to the PTB. And if you are dosed you just can't take the possibility on.

Magical thinking begets magical thinking begets mag........

Paul



I'm so glad I don't live in such a little world.

[Cuddles]

Originally Posted by Old Bob

One thing that spoils dowsing is material gain, that is why good psychic only require a donation. They don't want to be distracted with money.

Let me get this straight. Being given money distracts psychics and stops dowsing from working, so instead they only require that people give them money. OK.

Of course, this raises the obvious question of why you brought psychics up in a thread about dowsing.

[Paulhoff]

Originally Posted by Cuddles

Let me get this straight. Being given money distracts psychics and stops dowsing from working, so instead they only require that people give them money. OK.

Of course, this raises the obvious question of why you brought psychics up in a thread about dowsing.

Don't you understand, a donation is not money.

Magical thinking begets magical thinking begets mag........

Paul

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by Old Bob

Dowsing ... Optus had me marking water mains just last week so to dodge digging them up with a new trench. ....

Rubbish.

A utility would not rely on a "civilian" to locate infrastruction before they dug a trench. If on your property, and they were doing the trench digging, they would consult easement drawings, if water mains, they would contact the water board and the local council, not only for the locations but for permission to dig a trench.

They are as likely to dig a trench where a dowser has "located" water mains as would an oil company rely on a dowser to locate their well site.

You have evidence, of course, that backs your claim?