Earthquake lights

[Zeuzzz]

What do people make of the cause of these Eathquake lights that were apparently pictured by various people before the Earthquake in China?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzVamNQzfYA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IHoZoAVLo0





They're quite faint, but definately there. Wiki has a page on them, but says that there are few references documenting the phenomenon, its only been recorded directly now after this china quake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake_light

Quote:

Theories

The precise mechanism, if such a phenomenon exists—as opposed to being coincidence with aurora or mistaken recall after a traumatic event such as an earthquake—is unknown. One theory suggests that earthquake lights are a form of plasma discharge caused by the release of gases from within the Earth and are electrically charged in the air, which might be confirmed by or simply related to the reports of steam venting out of the earth in recent Peruvian earthquakes.

Another possible explanation is local disruption of the Earth's magnetic field and/or ionosphere in the region of tectonic stress, resulting in the observed glow effects either from ionospheric radiative recombination at lower altitudes and greater atmospheric pressure or as aurora. However, the effect is clearly not pronounced or notably observed at all earthquake events and is yet to be directly experimentally verified.[citation needed]

Another explanation involves intense electric fields created piezoelectrically by tectonic movements of rocks [....]

And some guy call Friedemann Freund at NASA has proposed it is caused by the electric currents/fields produced when the rocks are put under stress.

After Quake, Attention Grows On Early-Warning Systems

Quote:

Early in May, NASA earth scientists monitoring infrared images of the earth noticed unusual patterns in southwestern China. One sent an email to colleagues, noting: Something is happening in Sichuan province.

For Friedemann Freund, a chemist-turned-NASA geophysics researcher, it was more support for his simple, though hotly contested theory: Earthquakes are the culmination of drawn-out physical processes that can be tracked sometimes more than a week ahead of the main event.

The main idea: Rocks put under enough pressure -- for example, when tectonic plates shift -- turn into batteries. The resulting electrical currents can travel miles into the earth, Dr. Freund says. The infrared images observed by NASA, for example, were concentrated several hundred miles from the epicenter of the roughly 8.0 magnitude earthquake that struck on May 12, killing at least 34,000 people [....]

Also this page elaborates a bit on freuds theory, and his other observations relevant to Earthquakes;

http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=36uyr9nx

Quote:

In the Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 17, No. 1, pp. 37–71, 2003, there is an excellent report that addresses the more down-to-earth problems facing geophysicists trying to understand earthquakes. The paper is titled, Rocks That Crackle and Sparkle and Glow: Strange Pre-Earthquake Phenomena, by Dr. Friedemann T. Freund, a professor in the Department of Physics, San Jose State University, and a senior researcher at NASA Ames Research Center. Dr. Freund writes, "Many strange phenomena precede large earthquakes. Some of them have been reported for centuries, even millennia. The list is long and diverse: bulging of the Earth's surface, changing well water levels, ground-hugging fog, low frequency electromagnetic emission, earthquake lights from ridges and mountain tops, magnetic field anomalies up to 0.5% of the Earth's dipole field, temperature anomalies by several degrees over wide areas as seen in satellite images, changes in the plasma density of the ionosphere, and strange animal behavior. Because it seems nearly impossible to imagine that such diverse phenomena could have a common physical cause, there is great confusion and even greater controversy."

Freund outlines the basic problem, "Based on the reported laboratory results of electrical measurements, no mechanism seemed to exist that could account for the generation of those large currents in the Earth's crust, which are needed to explain the strong EM signals and magnetic anomalies that have been documented before some earthquakes. Unfortunately, when a set of observations cannot be explained within the framework of existing knowledge, the tendency is not to believe the observation. Therefore, a general malaise has taken root in the geophysical community when it comes to the many reported non-seismic and non-geodesic pre-earthquake phenomena There seems to be no bona fide physical process by which electric currents of sufficient magnitude could be generated in crustal rocks." [...]

If we could predict Earthquakes based on these events that would be very handy. What explantion for these lights do people think seems the most plausable? Freund theory, or one of the others ones?

[arthwollipot]

I saw or heard something about this phenomenon recently. In a nutshell there's nothing unusual or unexplained going on here. They're ordinary reflection/refraction images, just like a common rainbow. And they're not specificially related to earthquakes either. I've seen them myself, and there hasn't been an earthquake in this particular part of the earth's crust for millions of years. The fact that they've been linked to earthquakes is a coincidence.

[Zeuzzz]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I saw or heard something about this phenomenon recently. In a nutshell there's nothing unusual or unexplained going on here. They're ordinary reflection/refraction images, just like a common rainbow. And they're not specificially related to earthquakes either. I've seen them myself, and there hasn't been an earthquake in this particular part of the earth's crust for millions of years. The fact that they've been linked to earthquakes is a coincidence.

I agree that they certainly look like rainbow type refractions, but three separate places in china recorded these lights up to an hour before the quake, that seems like quite a low probability of being chance to me, especially when other past accounts of lights in the sky before Earthquakes are considered. You can see the locations on this map; http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2453/ecjm1.jpg

The IEEE have got a really informative article on this phenomenon, and other probably related ones, here; http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/2367

Quote:

Accurate earthquake warnings are, at last, within reach. They will come not from the mechanical phenomena—measurements of the movement of the earth's crust—that have been the focus of decades of study, but, rather, from electromagnetic phenomena. And, remarkably, these predictions will come from signals gathered not only at the earth's surface but also far above it, in the ionosphere.

For decades, researchers have detected strange phenomena in the form of odd radio noise and eerie lights in the sky in the weeks, hours, and days preceding earthquakes. But only recently have experts started systematically monitoring those phenomena and correlating them to earthquakes.

A light or glow in the sky sometimes heralds a big earthquake. On 17 January 1995, for example, there were 23 reported sightings in Kobe, Japan, of a white, blue, or orange light extending some 200 meters in the air and spreading 1 to 8 kilometers across the ground. Hours later a 6.9-magnitude earthquake killed more than 5500 people. Sky watchers and geologists have documented similar lights before earthquakes elsewhere in Japan since the 1960s and in Canada in 1988.

The details of how the current is generated remain something of a mystery. One theory is that the deformation of the rock destabilizes its atoms, freeing a flood of electrons from their atomic bonds, and creating positively charged electron deficiencies, or holes. [.....]

And formations in the sky were seen before two Earth quakes in Iran; http://environment.newscientist.com/...0-curious-clou

And in linconshire; Glowing lights around an earthquake's epicentre

This paper may be relevant too;
Ground radon exhalation, an electrostatic contribution for upper atmospheric layers processes

Quote:

Abstract

Radon exhalation from the ground and consequent formation of large ion clusters as a result of ionization and plasma-chemical reactions have been proposed as an agent of seismo-ionospheric coupling mechanisms. Soil radon transfer to the atmosphere was evaluated at fixed stations in Mexico using SSNTD and GPS receivers’ data were used to calculate changes in the ionosphere due to the Ms 7.8 earthquake occurred in Mexico in 2003. An anomaly was observed that can be regarded as the earthquake precursor showing its clear spatial connection with the epicentre position.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

I agree that they certainly look like rainbow type refractions, but three separate places in china recorded these lights up to an hour before the quake, that seems like quite a low probability of being chance to me, especially when other past accounts of lights in the sky before Earthquakes are considered.

I don't know about other possible forms of 'earthquake lights', but every single one of those in the pictures/videos you post are typical refraction phenomenon in high clouds, a type of sun dogs. The probability of chance is high, because this is a very common phenomenon.

Like arthwollipot, I see them often where I live, which is also an extremely stable zone, geologically (we tend to get a magnitude 1-2 tremor about once a decade). I have also seen them often in China (and other places), but not in connection with earthquakes (in the Beijing area, some 1,500 miles from Xian).

.... In fact, I just looked out of the the window, and there is one up there. Unfortunately, I don't have a camera with me just now, so you'll have to take my word for it.

Hans

[MG1962]

I agree, what is in those images, dont seem related to what others have described. Not sure the second image is a sun dog though, angle of the light looks all wrong

[MRC_Hans]

Which of them (still or video), and why? How can you determine what the right angle should be when the sun is not visible in any of the pictures?

Hans

[MG1962]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Which of them (still or video), and why? How can you determine what the right angle should be when the sun is not visible in any of the pictures?

Hans

The second photo - I have never seen a sun dog more than about 60 degrees from the sun. In the second photo, what reflections there are seem to be indicating the light is comming from behind the viewpoint.

[BenBurch]

Yeah, those images are high altitude ice crystals scattering sunlight. At night you can get a similar effect with the moon.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Yeah, those images are high altitude ice crystals scattering sunlight. At night you can get a similar effect with the moon.

I believe the phenomenon we're all searching for are, Circumhorizontal Arcs.

[tusenfem]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

If we could predict Earthquakes based on these events that would be very handy. What explantion for these lights do people think seems the most plausable? Freund theory, or one of the others ones?

Not based on these lights, but there is a project DEMETER, which is a low-flying satellite, measuring e.g. the Earth's magnetic field and look at electromagnetic precursors of Earthquakes. Up to now, however, they have only been able to show in very quiescent magnetospheric conditions that there was a signature. Normally, these waves are too weak to be measurable above the regular noise of the dynamic magnetosphere.

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by tusenfem

Not based on these lights, but there is a project DEMETER, which is a low-flying satellite, measuring e.g. the Earth's magnetic field and look at electromagnetic precursors of Earthquakes. Up to now, however, they have only been able to show in very quiescent magnetospheric conditions that there was a signature. Normally, these waves are too weak to be measurable above the regular noise of the dynamic magnetosphere.

Makes sense that there would be SOME effect just due to piezoelectricity.

[Hellbound]

Just a side note, in regards to them being seen in three seperate places.

These are high-altitude formations, which means they have a VERY wide "viewing range". They can be seen from a long ways off. How far away from each other were these three places?

Your link shows two places, about 250km apart. That seems well withint he range that a high-altitude formation might be visible. Adding in the consideration that they were ~20 minutes apart, what direction were high-altitude winds blowing that day? What direction were the people facing when they took the pictures?

The first mistake here is assumign the two photos were taken of two seperate events. They could be views of the same clouds from different angles, or at differnet times (as the clouds moved with winds). Alternatively, since the times were relatively close together, that suggests that sun angles would've been correct to make these images at both locations from any high altitude clouds of ice in the areas.

In short, is there anything to link these images with the earthquake, with the exception of the timing?

ETA: Also, in regards to the timing, if it is caused by the earthquake, then the timeline needs explanation, as well. How long were these visible for at each location? Why were they visible later at the location closer to the epicenter? It seems they would be visible at closer locations earlier than at farther locations, or (assuming some type of EM radiation is responsible) they should travel at the speed of light. Just another avenue of investigation.

[Soapy Sam]

The related phenomenon of Sundogs which Hans mentions are described here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dog

I can't see any way either effect could be related to earthquakes.

Quakelights I understood to be a piezoelectric or triboluminescent effect caused by stress in mineral veins. I never saw such an effect, or talked about it to anyone who has and it may be entirely speculative / mythical.
It does not stike me as impossible however.

[rjh01]

I will take such things seriously when their is documented evidence that earthquakes were predicted by using this method. No false positives allowed.

[robinson]

Reminds me of the "Red sprites" issue, as well as the Milky sea.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by rjh01

I will take such things seriously when their is documented evidence that earthquakes were predicted by using this method. No false positives allowed.

Or confirmation bias...

[bokonon]

I've seen these things a lot in California, with no earthquake following their appearance. One time, I could only see them while wearing my (presumably polarizing) sunglasses. I'm not sure if the polarization would make them visible in a wider set of viewing angles, or if the brightness just washed the color out until sunglasses darkened the view, though I suspect the latter.

It's an atmospheric phenomenon that has nothing to do with earthquakes.

[robinson]

Originally Posted by bokonon

I've seen these things a lot in California, with no earthquake following their appearance.

Seen what things?

[Timothy]

If the observing angles and sun locations are known for the photographs, one can use HaloSim (http://www.atoptics.co.uk/halosim.htm) to confirm or refute that the locations of the phenomena coincide with the predicted locations of known atmospheric solar arcs.

[bokonon]

Originally Posted by robinson

Seen what things?

Spectral colors in high cirrus clouds. I didn't know until today that they were called "circumhorizontal arcs," and it doesn't seem like a very descriptive name.

[Zeuzzz]

stumbled across this article that looks at some of the EM anomalies often associated with earthquakes. Anyone think theres anything to this, or is it more co-incidence? I'm undecided.


http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/a...arthquakes.htm

Quote:

In the Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 17, No. 1, pp. 37–71, 2003, there is an excellent report that addresses the more down-to-earth problems facing geophysicists trying to understand earthquakes. The paper is titled, Rocks That Crackle and Sparkle and Glow: Strange Pre-Earthquake Phenomena, by Dr. Friedemann T. Freund, a professor in the Department of Physics, San Jose State University, and a senior researcher at NASA Ames Research Center. Dr. Freund writes, "Many strange phenomena precede large earthquakes. Some of them have been reported for centuries, even millennia. The list is long and diverse: bulging of the Earth’s surface, changing well water levels, ground-hugging fog, low frequency electromagnetic emission, earthquake lights from ridges and mountain tops, magnetic field anomalies up to 0.5% of the Earth’s dipole field, temperature anomalies by several degrees over wide areas as seen in satellite images, changes in the plasma density of the ionosphere, and strange animal behavior. Because it seems nearly impossible to imagine that such diverse phenomena could have a common physical cause, there is great confusion and even greater controversy."

Freund outlines the basic problem, "Based on the reported laboratory results of electrical measurements, no mechanism seemed to exist that could account for the generation of those large currents in the Earth’s crust, which are needed to explain the strong EM signals and magnetic anomalies that have been documented before some earthquakes. Unfortunately, when a set of observations cannot be explained within the framework of existing knowledge, the tendency is not to believe the observation. Therefore, a general malaise has taken root in the geophysical community when it comes to the many reported non-seismic and non-geodesic pre-earthquake phenomena… There seems to be no bona fide physical process by which electric currents of sufficient magnitude could be generated in crustal rocks."

And although published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration (lets get this out of our system quick, hahahaha, woo-hoo, hohohoho), anyone think that there could be a geophysical EM explanation for earthquakes other than the usual plate tectonic one? I'm thinking along the lines of resonant frequencies of large structures to large scale EM waves generated in the Earths core or in space, but haven't given it much thought past this.

[Grimoire]

Sounds like a combination of sun dogs and confirmation bias. I saw some "lights" just like these a couple of weeks ago when I was grocery shopping. No earthquake though.

[Sherman Bay]

Lights are seen in the sky. Earthquakes happen shortly after. Obviously related, right?

Except there may have been more lights in the sky afterwards. People were too busy cleaning up after the earthquake to notice.

And there may be lights in areas where earthquakes are rare, and no earthquakes happen. Not worth mentioning, is it? But such observations count as well as the positive ones and must be included to have a valid analysis.

So far, I'd say there is insufficient and only biased data to be able to make a valid connection.

[Paulhoff]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz

I'm thinking along the lines of resonant frequencies of large structures to large scale EM waves generated in the Earths core or in space, but haven't given it much thought past this.

Sorry, but that says it all.

Paul