At What Point Did You Realize Bush Was a Disaster?

Ryan O'Dine · 21st July 2008, 05:59 AM

For those who didn’t vote Bush (or live outside the U.S.) but were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, what was the final straw?

For those who voted Bush, at what point did you regret it, if ever? Are you approaching the upcoming election any differently? Any insights beyond the obvious caveat emptor (have you changed sources of info, for example)?

I actually feared for the country pretty early on. I guess the point at which I lost hope was when the head of his VP search committee decided the head of his VP search committee would make the best possible VP. After which he surrounded himself with industry oilmen and Texas loyalists.

But I’m sure most people were more generous than that, and I’m interested in all perspectives.

PogoPedant · 21st July 2008, 06:33 AM

I've no idea what the final straw may have been, in fact, the final straw may not have fallen yet. Perhaps Bush has some clever master plan to save us all from the space invaders we're just not ready to know about yet?

However, I do remember having grave doubts when I heard about the office of Homeland Security being instituted (or was it merely strengthened? I don't know). It appeared to me to be a power-grab straight out of some political horror show.

Upchurch · 21st July 2008, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

For those who didn’t vote Bush (or live outside the U.S.) but were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, what was the final straw?

The moment for me was when Bush first started talking about Saddam Hussein in context of the 9/11 attacks. You know, the guy he had had the mad-on for before the attacks.

That's when the theme to "The Empire Strikes Back" started playing in the back of my head whenever I heard Bush speaking.

fuelair · 21st July 2008, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

The moment for me was when Bush first started talking about Saddam Hussein in context of the 9/11 attacks. You know, the guy he had had the mad-on for before the attacks.

.

It's ok to write/say "hard-on" for.

TheDoLittle · 21st July 2008, 09:04 AM

I had a run in with the then "Second Son" George W. that creeped me out slightly.

Back during the middle of Reagan's second term, and Papa Bush's second term as VP, I had been doing some volunteer work with Reading Is Fundamental, or RIF, and which was a favorite charity of Barbara Bush, George W.'s mother. I was a VERY young artist/writer who had won an award on a paper I had written about "The Importance of Dr. Seuss" (please don't ask me to post or re-type the paper here! It was 20 years ago and I have long since lost it!) and was to attend a luncheon with Mrs. Bush. Or course, all the members of the school board were there, my English teacher (who I believe was named Mrs. Lacky), our principal, some other students contest winners and their parents, and several sponsors of the contest of whom I can't really remember outside of Jim "Mattress Mac" MacInvale, who is still fondly remembered for his furniture store commercials.

Then Mrs. Bush arrived. Aside from the two Secret Service agents, she was being escorted by her eldest son, George. For some reason, he didn't sit at the dais table with his mother and everyone else, and decided to sit with us kids. I don't remember the particulars of the conversation (other than he was boasting he bought/was buying the Texas Rangers ball team. At that time Nolan Ryan was still an Astro so I didn't care about the Rangers) but I got the impression early on that during his grade school years, this was one of the guys who rode the "special" short bus to school. He also apparently bathed in his cologne. Though I can't say for certain anything happened during that luncheon that would point to his future governorship or presidency, or any warning signs to prevent it, he just always left me with the impression he was just an everyday jerk.

So my straw would have been that luncheon, 20 years ago and 12 years before his election.

Knowing what I know now, I wish I had thrown my salad tomato at him.

Tsukasa Buddha · 21st July 2008, 10:43 AM

Hm...

I don't really recall a certain date. But it was after the 2004 elections.

And though I was too young at the time, I would have voted for Bush in 2004.

Pardalis · 21st July 2008, 10:45 AM

Katrina.

FireGarden · 21st July 2008, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by TheDoLittle

Knowing what I know now, I wish I had thrown my salad tomato at him.

I have a time machine....

I was against the war in Iraq. I thought it was a huge mistake. But when it seemed over, and Saddam's statue was brought down, I thought things could actually go well. There seemed a chance of it.

Some people were telling me America would be in Iraq forever. "They didn't go to all that trouble just to go home again." But I didn't believe it.

I was even hopeful on this forum:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=3954&page=2
But things went from bad to hopeful to bad to worse.

Now...
I think the plan was always to stay in Iraq.

So when did I lose all hope? When did I decide that there was no doubt left from which Bush could benefit? I really can't tell.

At some point Bush invaded my avatar space. I saw him as a complete and utter barstool by then.

Undesired Walrus · 21st July 2008, 10:47 AM

How did Bush get the nomination, let alone the Presidency in the first place?

Surely the Republican party wasn't that stretched for Christian Fundamentalists. The man is like a slightly less charming Huckabee with the mind of Alan Keyes.

NobbyNobbs · 21st July 2008, 10:53 AM

I think that "I am the decider" decided it for me.

Almo · 21st July 2008, 10:54 AM

For me it was the handling of the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. I was doubtful about invading Afghanistan, but I despise the Taliban so I remained ambivalent about it.

The stuff about WMD was never convincing to me, and Bush's apparent lack of respect for world opinion made me sure he wanted to invade and would find an excuse any way he could.

Policenaut · 21st July 2008, 11:08 AM

Bush won in 2000 because Gore was a robot back then and he won in 2004 because Kerry was Candidate D. Not GWB. Even with all the crap that has happened in the last 4 years I think it would have been worse if Kerry was elected.

Loss Leader · 21st July 2008, 11:11 AM

The moment Elizabeth Dole dropped out of the race in 2000, I knew we were screwed.

ZouPrime · 21st July 2008, 11:12 AM

This is a good question. In my case, I don't think there has been a specific moment when my opinion of him changed drastically - it was a slow process - but if I had to provide an answer, I would say that the whole justification presented for the Iraq war really left a sour taste in my mouth. I remember hearing about the "better to fight them there than here" claim and laughting it off, never thinking that the US could seriously push such an obviously flawled argument, and then ending up completely dumbfounded when they actually did. But still, I thought it was just an explanation for the masses - the administration had to have a rational, underlying motive to do this. I remember arguing with myself over the true justification for the war. My liberal friends were claiming that it was all a question of oil, but I remember treating this with heavy scepticism. Surely the americans wouldn't be as stupid as to start a war in the most volatile place on Earth just for the irrealist hope that somehow they could seize all this oil without the rest of the world flitching. Not when the russians had their collective asses kicked in Arfghanistan not even a decade ago.

In the end, I trully believed that US intelligence knew about something they didn't want to tell us regarding Iraq WMD capabilities. In the end, it was the only thing left that made any sense. I was the first surprised when they ended up finding absolutely nothing. In my worst nightmares I never expected Bush to be so stupid, and when I finally realized the truth it kind of hit me hard.

Bob Blaylock · 21st July 2008, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

For those who voted Bush, at what point did you regret it, if ever?

There is something that I remember that nobody else seems to. Back in 1988, after Bush Sr. had secured the nomination, attention turned to who his running mate might be. At some point, the media's attention focussed on a bright young senator, “a Robert Redford look-alike”, who was being portrayed as something of a political prodigy. The media was building him up and praising him, and soon, that was who Bush Sr. picked. As soon as it was announced that Bush had picked Dan Quayle as his running mate, the same media that had been praising him suddenly turned very viciously against him, and for the next five years, the media took every opportunity to portray Quayle as an immature idiot; and to make him the butt of every joke to that effect.

It was an impressive demonstration of the media's power to manipulate public opinion and perception. In truth, Quayle may not have been the brilliant prodigy that the media first portrayed him as, but he wasn't the immature moron that the media later portrayed him as either. And he certainly didn't go from being one to being the other once he was chosen as Bush Sr.'s running mate.

It seems to me that ever since the 2000 election, there's been a similar attempt to “Quayle” Bush Jr.; and that this effort, though not quite as successful as the earlier effort against Quayle.

Bush Jr. also, has had the misfortune of being the one who was President when the 9/11 attacks took place. No matter who was President at that time, and no matter what response was offered to 9/11, the President was unavoidably going to make a lot of enemies. If Gore had been elected instead of Bush Jr., then most likely he would have responded about the same way that his predecessor did to the 1993 attacks on the World Trade Center (that is, not at all in any meaningful way), and by now, we would surely have seen several more similar attacks, and thousands more Americans killed on our own soil; and Gore would be blamed for allowing it all to happen. Instead, we've got Bush Jr. who has taken us into the war that was needed to prevent further such attacks, but that war is becoming unpopular, and he is being blamed for it.

I voted for Bush Jr. in 2000, and again in 2004, and if he were able to run again, I'd vote for him again now in 2008. I would prefer him over McCain, and I certainly would prefer him over Obama.

Mark6 · 21st July 2008, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Policenaut

Bush won in 2000 because Gore was a robot back then and he won in 2004 because Kerry was Candidate D. Not GWB. Even with all the crap that has happened in the last 4 years I think it would have been worse if Kerry was elected.

Same here. I voted for Bush in 2000; by 2004 I was fairly disenchanted with him, but Kerry is, if anything, more stupid. (And has FAR more sense of entitlement and self-importance.)

[Edit] I just realized I did not actually answer the OP. So the answer is: I do not regret voting for Bush Jr. in 2000 or 2004. I regret not having had better choices.

President Bush · 21st July 2008, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

For those who didn’t vote Bush (or live outside the U.S.) but were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, what was the final straw?

For those who voted Bush, at what point did you regret it, if ever? Are you approaching the upcoming election any differently? Any insights beyond the obvious caveat emptor (have you changed sources of info, for example)?

I actually feared for the country pretty early on. I guess the point at which I lost hope was when the head of his VP search committee decided the head of his VP search committee would make the best possible VP. After which he surrounded himself with industry oilmen and Texas loyalists.

But I’m sure most people were more generous than that, and I’m interested in all perspectives.

The feeling is mutual. Get me the **** out of this dump.

epeos76 · 21st July 2008, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

Bush Jr. also, has had the misfortune of being the one who was President when the 9/11 attacks took place. No matter who was President at that time, and no matter what response was offered to 9/11, the President was unavoidably going to make a lot of enemies.

I think you're wrong here. 9/11 was a terrible tragedy, but it was also an unparalleled opportunity for American leadership. In fact, I remember getting the chills when Bush gave his "graveyard of history" speech, though I was not a fan of Bush or the alleged "clash of civilizations". I imagine a strong president would be going down in history next to Lincoln and FDR.

quixotecoyote · 21st July 2008, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

It was an impressive demonstration of the media's power to manipulate public opinion and perception.

...

Instead, we've got Bush Jr. who has taken us into the war that was needed to prevent further such attacks, but that war is becoming unpopular, and he is being blamed for it.

Bush invaded Iraq. Self-pwned.

Marquis de Carabas · 21st July 2008, 01:17 PM

When he traded Sammy Sosa.

PitPat · 21st July 2008, 01:19 PM

Not that I voted for him anyway, since I tend to lean left most of the time.

I was aware of his evangelical background, but his first poor policy decision that gave me the "Oh man, he's going to be a lot worse than I thought" feeling was his Aug 2001 stem cell order.

Undesired Walrus · 21st July 2008, 01:20 PM

Bush's worst judgement after the Mexico City Policy was 'We will fight them over there so we do not have to fight them here'.

I never knew that 'there' was expendable, whilst the US is not.

Mark6 · 21st July 2008, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Bush's worst judgement after the Mexico City Policy was 'We will fight them over there so we do not have to fight them here'.

I never knew that 'there' was expendable, whilst the US is not.

Prioritizing one's own country over others is a major part of President's job, as far as I am concerned. Just like I would expect Prime Minister of France to prioritize France over "here". Overall idea I completely agree with.

Its execution, OTOH...

Undesired Walrus · 21st July 2008, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mark6

Prioritizing one's own country over others is a major part of President's job, as far as I am concerned. Just like I would expect Prime Minister of France to prioritize France over "here". Overall idea I completely agree with.

Why?

Incidently, you mean the President of France.

Ryan O'Dine · 21st July 2008, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

...snip...
I voted for Bush Jr. in 2000, and again in 2004, and if he were able to run again, I'd vote for him again now in 2008. I would prefer him over McCain, and I certainly would prefer him over Obama.

I think I can understand someone feeling as you do if they believed terrorism was not only the number one priority facing the U.S., but far outstripped all other priorities. Does that characterize your position? Do you think Bush has been a good president on the economy, social issues, international relations beyond the wars, use of the “bully pulpit,” and other matters outside terrorism?

I guess I’m wondering if people who voted for him twice and don't regret it are proud of him as president in general terms, or is it just a lesser-of-two-evils situation. If you feel like answering.

And just for the record...

Quote:

Instead, we've got Bush Jr. who has taken us into the war that was needed to prevent further such attacks, but that war is becoming unpopular, and he is being blamed for it.

For many of us, the war in Iraq isn’t “becoming unpopular.” It was seen as a tragically bad idea before it even started. In which case, I hope you can understand why we feel Bush is exactly to blame.

Mark6 · 21st July 2008, 03:04 PM

Yes, of course Sarkozy is a President. That was very silly of me. As to why...

Whoever occupies the White House was elected by US population. Not by world population. He is sworn to protect, and is responsible to, citizens of the United States. Not to citizens of the world. Just like Sarkozy is responsible to citizens of France, and ANY elected official in any representative democracy, is responsible to his electorate. That's why it is called representative democracy -- the elected official represents his country/state/town/etc. and is charged with their well-being. Not with well-being of anyone else.

Which is not to say that lives of people "over there" are worthless, but they are not primary responsibility of US President. Preventing or minimizing casualties of his people, especially civilians, should be his priority. Just like Sarkozy's priority should be the safety of his people.

BenBurch · 21st July 2008, 03:07 PM

I realized it some time in late 1998. That is when I decided to abandon the Libertarian Party and throw in my lot with the Democrats to defeat him.

corplinx · 21st July 2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

At What Point Did You Realize Bush Was a Disaster?

When he used crib notes on his arm to get past the oath of office.

ServiceSoon · 21st July 2008, 04:30 PM

I voted for him because I wanted to get out of the social security mess. But I also have congress to blame for that. By my calculations they still has time.....

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

And just for the record...

For many of us, the war in Iraq isn’t “becoming unpopular.” It was seen as a tragically bad idea before it even started. In which case, I hope you can understand why we feel Bush is exactly to blame.

I do not understand considering it is the job of congress to declare war.

Oliver · 21st July 2008, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

How did Bush get the nomination, let alone the Presidency in the first place?

The Media didn't attack him for some reason.

My last straw: Mission Accomplished

Loss Leader · 21st July 2008, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon

I do not understand considering it is the job of congress to declare war.

Except that no President has asked Congress for a declaration of war since WWII. Whether it's constitutional or not, Presidents started going to war without asking first when they started suspecting that Congress might say no.

ETA: The Attorney General today floated the idea of asking Congress for a declaration of war against Al Quada - over six years after the "war" started.

BeAChooser · 21st July 2008, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

I realized it some time in late 1998. That is when I decided to abandon the Libertarian Party and throw in my lot with the Democrats to defeat him.

I rather doubt you were a member of the Libertarian Party if you voted for Gore. In fact, I hear lot of folks talking like "I wasn't a Democrat" here. Pardon my skepticism.

BenBurch · 21st July 2008, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

I rather doubt you were a member of the Libertarian Party if you voted for Gore. In fact, I hear lot of folks talking like "I wasn't a Democrat" here. Pardon my skepticism.

Well, I absolutely was; Since Roger MacBride in 1976.

geni · 21st July 2008, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

Bush Jr. also, has had the misfortune of being the one who was President when the 9/11 attacks took place. No matter who was President at that time, and no matter what response was offered to 9/11, the President was unavoidably going to make a lot of enemies.

Doubtful. Al-Qaeda didn't have many allies at that point and the only one with something close to nation state status would have been the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.

Islamic leaders for the most part hate Al-Qaeda compared to getting together a collition against Iraq picking up allies against Al-Qaeda would have been fairly easy.

Quote:

If Gore had been elected instead of Bush Jr., then most likely he would have responded about the same way that his predecessor did to the 1993 attacks on the World Trade Center (that is, not at all in any meaningful way),

No reason to think so. The clinton administration were prepared to use a fair bit of force when they felt it necessary and the 9/11 attacks would have solved his not being allowed to take casulties problem. No I can't see Gore haveing a problem with backing the northern alliance to remove the taliban

Quote:

and by now, we would surely have seen several more similar attacks, and thousands more Americans killed on our own soil; and Gore would be blamed for allowing it all to happen.

Al-Qaeda have never really managed to rack up much in the way of frequency in their attacks. Even doing nothing which seems unlikely would likely not have meant any attacks for the next few years.

Quote:

Instead, we've got Bush Jr. who has taken us into the war that was needed to prevent further such attacks, but that war is becoming unpopular, and he is being blamed for it.

Nope still a fairly solid degree of support for afganistan even if such support doesn't appear to exptend to troops on the ground in high risk areas.

Quote:

I voted for Bush Jr. in 2000, and again in 2004, and if he were able to run again, I'd vote for him again now in 2008. I would prefer him over McCain, and I certainly would prefer him over Obama.

Niether McCain nor Obama seem to have much in the way of a problem with war in afganistan. Obama apparent dissire to do something about the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan suggests a fair degree of enthusiasm to neutralise al-Qaeda even if it probably wouldn't be a good idea politicaly. McCain seems to suffer the standard republican issue of not getting the sunni shia thing but I'm sure that can be fixed.

SezMe · 21st July 2008, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Mark6

He is sworn to protect, and is responsible to, citizens of the United States.

Not quite true:

Originally Posted by US Constitution

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

It is the law of the land, the US Constitution, that the President is sworn to protect. And he's done a piss poor job of it - in fact, he's been found by federal courts to have violated it.

SezMe · 21st July 2008, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

Bush Jr. also, has had the misfortune of being the one who was President when the 9/11 attacks took place.

Originally Posted by epeos76

I think you're wrong here. 9/11 was a terrible tragedy, but it was also an unparalleled opportunity for American leadership. In fact, I remember getting the chills when Bush gave his "graveyard of history" speech, though I was not a fan of Bush or the alleged "clash of civilizations". I imagine a strong president would be going down in history next to Lincoln and FDR.

I'm with epeos here. Out of the great tragedy of 911 could have come enormous good. In fact, out of all the blunders of this administration, I think the missed opportunity following 911 might well be the worst.

The French said, "We are all Americans". There were candle light vigils in Iran. The weeks and months following 911 could have, under real enlightened leadership, seen a nearly united front against terrorism that would have yielded results in numerous fields. Bush lacked the vision and courage to seize an opportunity almost unparalled in US history.

David Wong · 21st July 2008, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

How did Bush get the nomination, let alone the Presidency in the first place?

Surely the Republican party wasn't that stretched for Christian Fundamentalists. The man is like a slightly less charming Huckabee with the mind of Alan Keyes.

Name recognition, very personable, won a surprising election in Texas and seemed to do a good job there. I can't think of any candidates who were all that great at the time.

David Wong · 21st July 2008, 07:55 PM

Also... if someone had come in here on 9/12/01 and said that seven more years would pass without any additional terror attacks, I think every one of us would be ready to lift Bush on our shoulders and sing songs in his praise.

Whatever you can say about his policies, they have prevented another attack. To say that terrorists simply haven't chosen to attack us would be absolutely ludicrous and indefensible. On 9/12/01 he was given that mandate first and foremost, and he carried it through.

Katrina was a mess, he's cringe-worthy in public, all these things are true. But give credit where it's due.

Texas · 21st July 2008, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

I'm with epeos here. Out of the great tragedy of 911 could have come enormous good. In fact, out of all the blunders of this administration, I think the missed opportunity following 911 might well be the worst.

The French said, "We are all Americans". There were candle light vigils in Iran. The weeks and months following 911 could have, under real enlightened leadership, seen a nearly united front against terrorism that would have yielded results in numerous fields. Bush lacked the vision and courage to seize an opportunity almost unparalled in US history.

Then in the next editions the French press were almost gloating. This idea that the "world" was our oyster immediately following 911 are both false and insulting.

geni · 21st July 2008, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by David Wong

Also... if someone had come in here on 9/12/01 and said that seven more years would pass without any additional terror attacks, I think every one of us would be ready to lift Bush on our shoulders and sing songs in his praise.

Um no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7/7

21st July 2008, 05:59 AM	#1
Ryan O'Dine OD’ing on Damitol Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you’ll find me eventually Posts: 1,184	At What Point Did You Realize Bush Was a Disaster? For those who didn’t vote Bush (or live outside the U.S.) but were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, what was the final straw? For those who voted Bush, at what point did you regret it, if ever? Are you approaching the upcoming election any differently? Any insights beyond the obvious caveat emptor (have you changed sources of info, for example)? I actually feared for the country pretty early on. I guess the point at which I lost hope was when the head of his VP search committee decided the head of his VP search committee would make the best possible VP. After which he surrounded himself with industry oilmen and Texas loyalists. But I’m sure most people were more generous than that, and I’m interested in all perspectives.
	__________________ I collect people like you in little formaldehyde bottles in my basement. (Not a threat. A hobby.)

21st July 2008, 06:33 AM	#2
PogoPedant Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 764	I've no idea what the final straw may have been, in fact, the final straw may not have fallen yet. Perhaps Bush has some clever master plan to save us all from the space invaders we're just not ready to know about yet? However, I do remember having grave doubts when I heard about the office of Homeland Security being instituted (or was it merely strengthened? I don't know). It appeared to me to be a power-grab straight out of some political horror show.
PogoPedant Muse Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 764

21st July 2008, 08:04 AM	#4
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,936	Originally Posted by Upchurch The moment for me was when Bush first started talking about Saddam Hussein in context of the 9/11 attacks. You know, the guy he had had the mad-on for before the attacks. . It's ok to write/say "hard-on" for.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,936

21st July 2008, 09:04 AM	#5
TheDoLittle Disco King Discombobulator Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 1,658	I had a run in with the then "Second Son" George W. that creeped me out slightly. Back during the middle of Reagan's second term, and Papa Bush's second term as VP, I had been doing some volunteer work with Reading Is Fundamental, or RIF, and which was a favorite charity of Barbara Bush, George W.'s mother. I was a VERY young artist/writer who had won an award on a paper I had written about "The Importance of Dr. Seuss" (please don't ask me to post or re-type the paper here! It was 20 years ago and I have long since lost it!) and was to attend a luncheon with Mrs. Bush. Or course, all the members of the school board were there, my English teacher (who I believe was named Mrs. Lacky), our principal, some other students contest winners and their parents, and several sponsors of the contest of whom I can't really remember outside of Jim "Mattress Mac" MacInvale, who is still fondly remembered for his furniture store commercials. Then Mrs. Bush arrived. Aside from the two Secret Service agents, she was being escorted by her eldest son, George. For some reason, he didn't sit at the dais table with his mother and everyone else, and decided to sit with us kids. I don't remember the particulars of the conversation (other than he was boasting he bought/was buying the Texas Rangers ball team. At that time Nolan Ryan was still an Astro so I didn't care about the Rangers) but I got the impression early on that during his grade school years, this was one of the guys who rode the "special" short bus to school. He also apparently bathed in his cologne. Though I can't say for certain anything happened during that luncheon that would point to his future governorship or presidency, or any warning signs to prevent it, he just always left me with the impression he was just an everyday jerk. So my straw would have been that luncheon, 20 years ago and 12 years before his election. Knowing what I know now, I wish I had thrown my salad tomato at him.
	__________________ David O. Little -=The DoLittle 8-)=- America believes in education: the average professor earns more money in a year than a professional athlete earns in a whole week. - Evan Esar / No one can earn a million dollars honestly. - William Jennings Bryan (1860 - 1925) / If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you. - Don Marquis Last edited by TheDoLittle; 21st July 2008 at 09:07 AM. Reason: GRAMMER, DAMMIT!!

21st July 2008, 10:43 AM	#6
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,905	Hm... I don't really recall a certain date. But it was after the 2004 elections. And though I was too young at the time, I would have voted for Bush in 2004.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

21st July 2008, 06:45 AM	#3
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,426	Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine For those who didn’t vote Bush (or live outside the U.S.) but were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, what was the final straw? The moment for me was when Bush first started talking about Saddam Hussein in context of the 9/11 attacks. You know, the guy he had had the mad-on for before the attacks. That's when the theme to "The Empire Strikes Back" started playing in the back of my head whenever I heard Bush speaking.

21st July 2008, 10:45 AM	#7
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Katrina.

21st July 2008, 10:46 AM	#8
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Originally Posted by TheDoLittle Knowing what I know now, I wish I had thrown my salad tomato at him. I have a time machine.... I was against the war in Iraq. I thought it was a huge mistake. But when it seemed over, and Saddam's statue was brought down, I thought things could actually go well. There seemed a chance of it. Some people were telling me America would be in Iraq forever. "They didn't go to all that trouble just to go home again." But I didn't believe it. I was even hopeful on this forum: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=3954&page=2 But things went from bad to hopeful to bad to worse. Now... I think the plan was always to stay in Iraq. So when did I lose all hope? When did I decide that there was no doubt left from which Bush could benefit? I really can't tell. At some point Bush invaded my avatar space. I saw him as a complete and utter barstool by then.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

21st July 2008, 10:47 AM	#9
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,886	How did Bush get the nomination, let alone the Presidency in the first place? Surely the Republican party wasn't that stretched for Christian Fundamentalists. The man is like a slightly less charming Huckabee with the mind of Alan Keyes.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

21st July 2008, 10:53 AM	#10
NobbyNobbs Gazerbeam's Protege Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The Mended Drum Posts: 5,630	I think that "I am the decider" decided it for me.
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21st July 2008, 10:54 AM	#11
Almo Masterblazer Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 6,406	For me it was the handling of the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. I was doubtful about invading Afghanistan, but I despise the Taliban so I remained ambivalent about it. The stuff about WMD was never convincing to me, and Bush's apparent lack of respect for world opinion made me sure he wanted to invade and would find an excuse any way he could.
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21st July 2008, 11:08 AM	#12
Policenaut Infidel Defiler Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Shadow Moses Island Posts: 2,193	Bush won in 2000 because Gore was a robot back then and he won in 2004 because Kerry was Candidate D. Not GWB. Even with all the crap that has happened in the last 4 years I think it would have been worse if Kerry was elected.

21st July 2008, 11:11 AM	#13
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,885	The moment Elizabeth Dole dropped out of the race in 2000, I knew we were screwed.
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21st July 2008, 11:12 AM	#14
ZouPrime Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 498	This is a good question. In my case, I don't think there has been a specific moment when my opinion of him changed drastically - it was a slow process - but if I had to provide an answer, I would say that the whole justification presented for the Iraq war really left a sour taste in my mouth. I remember hearing about the "better to fight them there than here" claim and laughting it off, never thinking that the US could seriously push such an obviously flawled argument, and then ending up completely dumbfounded when they actually did. But still, I thought it was just an explanation for the masses - the administration had to have a rational, underlying motive to do this. I remember arguing with myself over the true justification for the war. My liberal friends were claiming that it was all a question of oil, but I remember treating this with heavy scepticism. Surely the americans wouldn't be as stupid as to start a war in the most volatile place on Earth just for the irrealist hope that somehow they could seize all this oil without the rest of the world flitching. Not when the russians had their collective asses kicked in Arfghanistan not even a decade ago. In the end, I trully believed that US intelligence knew about something they didn't want to tell us regarding Iraq WMD capabilities. In the end, it was the only thing left that made any sense. I was the first surprised when they ended up finding absolutely nothing. In my worst nightmares I never expected Bush to be so stupid, and when I finally realized the truth it kind of hit me hard.

21st July 2008, 12:35 PM	#15
Bob Blaylock Forklift Operator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: N38°35' W121°29' Posts: 3,013	Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine For those who voted Bush, at what point did you regret it, if ever? There is something that I remember that nobody else seems to. Back in 1988, after Bush Sr. had secured the nomination, attention turned to who his running mate might be. At some point, the media's attention focussed on a bright young senator, “a Robert Redford look-alike”, who was being portrayed as something of a political prodigy. The media was building him up and praising him, and soon, that was who Bush Sr. picked. As soon as it was announced that Bush had picked Dan Quayle as his running mate, the same media that had been praising him suddenly turned very viciously against him, and for the next five years, the media took every opportunity to portray Quayle as an immature idiot; and to make him the butt of every joke to that effect. It was an impressive demonstration of the media's power to manipulate public opinion and perception. In truth, Quayle may not have been the brilliant prodigy that the media first portrayed him as, but he wasn't the immature moron that the media later portrayed him as either. And he certainly didn't go from being one to being the other once he was chosen as Bush Sr.'s running mate. It seems to me that ever since the 2000 election, there's been a similar attempt to “Quayle” Bush Jr.; and that this effort, though not quite as successful as the earlier effort against Quayle. Bush Jr. also, has had the misfortune of being the one who was President when the 9/11 attacks took place. No matter who was President at that time, and no matter what response was offered to 9/11, the President was unavoidably going to make a lot of enemies. If Gore had been elected instead of Bush Jr., then most likely he would have responded about the same way that his predecessor did to the 1993 attacks on the World Trade Center (that is, not at all in any meaningful way), and by now, we would surely have seen several more similar attacks, and thousands more Americans killed on our own soil; and Gore would be blamed for allowing it all to happen. Instead, we've got Bush Jr. who has taken us into the war that was needed to prevent further such attacks, but that war is becoming unpopular, and he is being blamed for it. I voted for Bush Jr. in 2000, and again in 2004, and if he were able to run again, I'd vote for him again now in 2008. I would prefer him over McCain, and I certainly would prefer him over Obama.

21st July 2008, 12:36 PM	#16
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	Originally Posted by Policenaut Bush won in 2000 because Gore was a robot back then and he won in 2004 because Kerry was Candidate D. Not GWB. Even with all the crap that has happened in the last 4 years I think it would have been worse if Kerry was elected. Same here. I voted for Bush in 2000; by 2004 I was fairly disenchanted with him, but Kerry is, if anything, more stupid. (And has FAR more sense of entitlement and self-importance.) [Edit] I just realized I did not actually answer the OP. So the answer is: I do not regret voting for Bush Jr. in 2000 or 2004. I regret not having had better choices.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	Last edited by Mark6; 21st July 2008 at 12:39 PM.

21st July 2008, 12:44 PM	#17
President Bush Banned Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Islets of Langerhans Posts: 1,506	Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine For those who didn’t vote Bush (or live outside the U.S.) but were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, what was the final straw? For those who voted Bush, at what point did you regret it, if ever? Are you approaching the upcoming election any differently? Any insights beyond the obvious caveat emptor (have you changed sources of info, for example)? I actually feared for the country pretty early on. I guess the point at which I lost hope was when the head of his VP search committee decided the head of his VP search committee would make the best possible VP. After which he surrounded himself with industry oilmen and Texas loyalists. But I’m sure most people were more generous than that, and I’m interested in all perspectives. The feeling is mutual. Get me the **** out of this dump.

21st July 2008, 01:00 PM	#18
epeos76 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 300	Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock Bush Jr. also, has had the misfortune of being the one who was President when the 9/11 attacks took place. No matter who was President at that time, and no matter what response was offered to 9/11, the President was unavoidably going to make a lot of enemies. I think you're wrong here. 9/11 was a terrible tragedy, but it was also an unparalleled opportunity for American leadership. In fact, I remember getting the chills when Bush gave his "graveyard of history" speech, though I was not a fan of Bush or the alleged "clash of civilizations". I imagine a strong president would be going down in history next to Lincoln and FDR.
epeos76 Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 300

21st July 2008, 01:12 PM	#19
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock It was an impressive demonstration of the media's power to manipulate public opinion and perception. ... Instead, we've got Bush Jr. who has taken us into the war that was needed to prevent further such attacks, but that war is becoming unpopular, and he is being blamed for it. Bush invaded Iraq. Self-pwned.
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21st July 2008, 01:17 PM	#20
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	When he traded Sammy Sosa.
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21st July 2008, 01:19 PM	#21
PitPat Muse Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 580	Not that I voted for him anyway, since I tend to lean left most of the time. I was aware of his evangelical background, but his first poor policy decision that gave me the "Oh man, he's going to be a lot worse than I thought" feeling was his Aug 2001 stem cell order.

21st July 2008, 01:20 PM	#22
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,886	Bush's worst judgement after the Mexico City Policy was 'We will fight them over there so we do not have to fight them here'. I never knew that 'there' was expendable, whilst the US is not.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945 Last edited by Undesired Walrus; 21st July 2008 at 01:21 PM.

21st July 2008, 01:47 PM	#23
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus Bush's worst judgement after the Mexico City Policy was 'We will fight them over there so we do not have to fight them here'. I never knew that 'there' was expendable, whilst the US is not. Prioritizing one's own country over others is a major part of President's job, as far as I am concerned. Just like I would expect Prime Minister of France to prioritize France over "here". Overall idea I completely agree with. Its execution, OTOH...
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	Last edited by Mark6; 21st July 2008 at 01:48 PM.

21st July 2008, 01:53 PM	#24
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,886	Originally Posted by Mark6 Prioritizing one's own country over others is a major part of President's job, as far as I am concerned. Just like I would expect Prime Minister of France to prioritize France over "here". Overall idea I completely agree with. Why? Incidently, you mean the President of France.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945 Last edited by Undesired Walrus; 21st July 2008 at 01:55 PM.

21st July 2008, 02:55 PM	#25
Ryan O'Dine OD’ing on Damitol Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you’ll find me eventually Posts: 1,184	Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock ...snip... I voted for Bush Jr. in 2000, and again in 2004, and if he were able to run again, I'd vote for him again now in 2008. I would prefer him over McCain, and I certainly would prefer him over Obama. I think I can understand someone feeling as you do if they believed terrorism was not only the number one priority facing the U.S., but far outstripped all other priorities. Does that characterize your position? Do you think Bush has been a good president on the economy, social issues, international relations beyond the wars, use of the “bully pulpit,” and other matters outside terrorism? I guess I’m wondering if people who voted for him twice and don't regret it are proud of him as president in general terms, or is it just a lesser-of-two-evils situation. If you feel like answering. And just for the record... Quote: Instead, we've got Bush Jr. who has taken us into the war that was needed to prevent further such attacks, but that war is becoming unpopular, and he is being blamed for it. For many of us, the war in Iraq isn’t “becoming unpopular.” It was seen as a tragically bad idea before it even started. In which case, I hope you can understand why we feel Bush is exactly to blame.
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21st July 2008, 03:04 PM	#26
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	Yes, of course Sarkozy is a President. That was very silly of me. As to why... Whoever occupies the White House was elected by US population. Not by world population. He is sworn to protect, and is responsible to, citizens of the United States. Not to citizens of the world. Just like Sarkozy is responsible to citizens of France, and ANY elected official in any representative democracy, is responsible to his electorate. That's why it is called representative democracy -- the elected official represents his country/state/town/etc. and is charged with their well-being. Not with well-being of anyone else. Which is not to say that lives of people "over there" are worthless, but they are not primary responsibility of US President. Preventing or minimizing casualties of his people, especially civilians, should be his priority. Just like Sarkozy's priority should be the safety of his people.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176

21st July 2008, 03:07 PM	#27
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,150	I realized it some time in late 1998. That is when I decided to abandon the Libertarian Party and throw in my lot with the Democrats to defeat him.
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21st July 2008, 04:22 PM	#28
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Quote: At What Point Did You Realize Bush Was a Disaster? When he used crib notes on his arm to get past the oath of office.
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21st July 2008, 04:30 PM	#29
ServiceSoon Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 995	I voted for him because I wanted to get out of the social security mess. But I also have congress to blame for that. By my calculations they still has time..... Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine And just for the record... For many of us, the war in Iraq isn’t “becoming unpopular.” It was seen as a tragically bad idea before it even started. In which case, I hope you can understand why we feel Bush is exactly to blame. I do not understand considering it is the job of congress to declare war.
ServiceSoon Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 995

21st July 2008, 05:02 PM	#30
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus How did Bush get the nomination, let alone the Presidency in the first place? The Media didn't attack him for some reason. My last straw: Mission Accomplished
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21st July 2008, 05:09 PM	#31
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,885	Originally Posted by ServiceSoon I do not understand considering it is the job of congress to declare war. Except that no President has asked Congress for a declaration of war since WWII. Whether it's constitutional or not, Presidents started going to war without asking first when they started suspecting that Congress might say no. ETA: The Attorney General today floated the idea of asking Congress for a declaration of war against Al Quada - over six years after the "war" started.
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21st July 2008, 05:56 PM	#32
BeAChooser Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 11,716	Originally Posted by BenBurch I realized it some time in late 1998. That is when I decided to abandon the Libertarian Party and throw in my lot with the Democrats to defeat him. I rather doubt you were a member of the Libertarian Party if you voted for Gore. In fact, I hear lot of folks talking like "I wasn't a Democrat" here. Pardon my skepticism.
BeAChooser Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 11,716

21st July 2008, 05:59 PM	#33
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,150	Originally Posted by BeAChooser I rather doubt you were a member of the Libertarian Party if you voted for Gore. In fact, I hear lot of folks talking like "I wasn't a Democrat" here. Pardon my skepticism. Well, I absolutely was; Since Roger MacBride in 1976.
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21st July 2008, 06:26 PM	#34
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,565	Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock Bush Jr. also, has had the misfortune of being the one who was President when the 9/11 attacks took place. No matter who was President at that time, and no matter what response was offered to 9/11, the President was unavoidably going to make a lot of enemies. Doubtful. Al-Qaeda didn't have many allies at that point and the only one with something close to nation state status would have been the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Islamic leaders for the most part hate Al-Qaeda compared to getting together a collition against Iraq picking up allies against Al-Qaeda would have been fairly easy. Quote: If Gore had been elected instead of Bush Jr., then most likely he would have responded about the same way that his predecessor did to the 1993 attacks on the World Trade Center (that is, not at all in any meaningful way), No reason to think so. The clinton administration were prepared to use a fair bit of force when they felt it necessary and the 9/11 attacks would have solved his not being allowed to take casulties problem. No I can't see Gore haveing a problem with backing the northern alliance to remove the taliban Quote: and by now, we would surely have seen several more similar attacks, and thousands more Americans killed on our own soil; and Gore would be blamed for allowing it all to happen. Al-Qaeda have never really managed to rack up much in the way of frequency in their attacks. Even doing nothing which seems unlikely would likely not have meant any attacks for the next few years. Quote: Instead, we've got Bush Jr. who has taken us into the war that was needed to prevent further such attacks, but that war is becoming unpopular, and he is being blamed for it. Nope still a fairly solid degree of support for afganistan even if such support doesn't appear to exptend to troops on the ground in high risk areas. Quote: I voted for Bush Jr. in 2000, and again in 2004, and if he were able to run again, I'd vote for him again now in 2008. I would prefer him over McCain, and I certainly would prefer him over Obama. Niether McCain nor Obama seem to have much in the way of a problem with war in afganistan. Obama apparent dissire to do something about the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan suggests a fair degree of enthusiasm to neutralise al-Qaeda even if it probably wouldn't be a good idea politicaly. McCain seems to suffer the standard republican issue of not getting the sunni shia thing but I'm sure that can be fixed.

21st July 2008, 07:30 PM	#35
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,369	Originally Posted by Mark6 He is sworn to protect, and is responsible to, citizens of the United States. Not quite true: Originally Posted by US Constitution I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. It is the law of the land, the US Constitution, that the President is sworn to protect. And he's done a piss poor job of it - in fact, he's been found by federal courts to have violated it.