Homeopaths: Give One, You Only Need One, Incontrovertible Example...

Badly Shaved Monkey · 22nd July 2008, 12:05 AM

GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION

Since this question has caused non-self-limiting damage to the credibility of every homeopath to whom it has been posed, I thought it would benefit from being giving a thread to which enthusiastic contenders may be directed in future.

Rolfe · 22nd July 2008, 03:17 AM

You know what? I'd extend that to include successful management of any condition which is known to be fatal if left untreated.

Homoeopaths often point out (correctly) that medicine cannot cure diabetes, or Addison's, or hypothyroidism etc., etc. However, patients suffering from these conditions (the first two of which are certainly fatal if left untreated) are successfully managed so that they live normal or near-normal lives. Homoeopathy constantly boasts of cure, thus we focus on cure, however successful management of conditions like this would in fact be equally impressive.

If they could do it.

Rolfe.

Rolfe · 22nd July 2008, 03:18 AM

I think we must also make it crystal clear to any applicants that presenting a case report of a patient who survived an infection or other pathology with a high (but under 100%) fatality rate, does not count.

Rolfe.

Delvo · 22nd July 2008, 05:08 AM

What do you mean by "self-limiting"?

logical muse · 22nd July 2008, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Delvo

What do you mean by "self-limiting"?

Quote:

self·-limiting (self′lim′it iŋ)

adjective

that terminates by the natural course of events a self-limiting disease

Quote:

illness: Patients may have a serious life-threatening condition or a trivial self-limiting illness.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/self-limiting

TheDaver · 22nd July 2008, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I think we must also make it crystal clear to any applicants that presenting a case report of a patient who survived an infection or other pathology with a high (but under 100%) fatality rate, does not count.

Rolfe.

Of course, because correlation ≠ causality, but then again, that logical fact somehow escapes many people.

Soapy Sam · 22nd July 2008, 05:55 AM

*Drums fingers. Puts on kettle*

malbui · 22nd July 2008, 06:23 AM

I've got chocolate digestives here. What about you guys?

logical muse · 22nd July 2008, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by malbui

I've got chocolate digestives here.

McVitie's?

Badly Shaved Monkey · 22nd July 2008, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by malbui

I've got chocolate digestives here. What about you guys?

I've got a Hob Nob.

(Probably shouldn't stand so close to the cooker while naked and frying bacon)

NobbyNobbs · 22nd July 2008, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey

GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION

Since this question has caused non-self-limiting damage to the credibility of every homeopath to whom it has been posed, I thought it would benefit from being giving a thread to which enthusiastic contenders may be directed in future.

In other words, the homeopathic cure to the loss of credibility of homeopaths is an infintesimal amount of evidence.

Badly Shaved Monkey · 22nd July 2008, 02:30 PM

I'd like to hear more about Andre Saine's apparent claims that homeopathy cures rabies. Does anyone know about the basis on which those claims are founded?

DUllman said "Andre Saine’s forthcoming book, The Weight of Evidence, will probably provide us all with this evidence about rabies."

Badly Shaved Monkey · 22nd July 2008, 02:33 PM

To help the homeopaths I'll also highlight the alleged cures of cancer claimed using the "Banerji Protocol"

These claims are superficially impressive. Can anyone comment on the quality of these claims?

Gord_in_Toronto · 22nd July 2008, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey

I'd like to hear more about Andre Saine's apparent claims that homeopathy cures rabies. Does anyone know about the basis on which those claims are founded?

<< snip >>

Well. It is certainly true that none of the patients ever treated in this way have ever complained it did not work.

fls · 22nd July 2008, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey

To help the homeopaths I'll also highlight the alleged cures of cancer claimed using the "Banerji Protocol"

These claims are superficially impressive. Can anyone comment on the quality of these claims?

Out of seven cases, one 'brain cancer' was not confirmed with tissue examination. One biopsy and one fine-needle aspirate gave questionable results as to the presence of cancer. Three biopsies seem to confirm the presence of cancer, but they did not specify whether other treatment was provided. This leaves one diagnosis made on the basis of fine needle aspirate (small cell lung ca) where no other treatment was received. What is the chance that the pathologist made a mistake with a sample type that has less reliability than biopsy or that there was spontaneous regression of a tumour type for which spontaneous regression has previously been reported (albeit rarely)?

Linda

fls · 22nd July 2008, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey

I'd like to hear more about Andre Saine's apparent claims that homeopathy cures rabies. Does anyone know about the basis on which those claims are founded?

In this article, he refers to clinical rabies. The wording suggests that these were not confirmed by laboratory testing, and so simply may not have been rabies.

Linda

Kuko 4000 · 23rd July 2008, 02:27 AM

I'm trying to arrange a meeting with one of the most prominent homeopaths of my town. I've heard that she's scientifically informed. She's studied in the university of Helsinki and been involved in some very high profile science tv series here in Finland. This is what I've heard. I'm also trying to get her to join this forum for constructive discussions. Let's see what happens.

Acleron · 27th July 2008, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by fls

In this article, he refers to clinical rabies. The wording suggests that these were not confirmed by laboratory testing, and so simply may not have been rabies.

Linda

The full broadcast is available.

Remember to keep the aspirin ready for the non-Novella parts. My brain still hurts from the memory of listening to it.

I'm sure if Saine had evidence for all these claims that somebody else would have at least part of that evidence. As no-one has even tried to answer BSM's challenge (to my limited knowledge), I rest assured the evidence doesn't exist.

22nd July 2008, 12:05 AM	#1
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	Homeopaths: Give One, You Only Need One, Incontrovertible Example... GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION Since this question has caused non-self-limiting damage to the credibility of every homeopath to whom it has been posed, I thought it would benefit from being giving a thread to which enthusiastic contenders may be directed in future.
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

22nd July 2008, 03:17 AM	#2
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,309	You know what? I'd extend that to include successful management of any condition which is known to be fatal if left untreated. Homoeopaths often point out (correctly) that medicine cannot cure diabetes, or Addison's, or hypothyroidism etc., etc. However, patients suffering from these conditions (the first two of which are certainly fatal if left untreated) are successfully managed so that they live normal or near-normal lives. Homoeopathy constantly boasts of cure, thus we focus on cure, however successful management of conditions like this would in fact be equally impressive. If they could do it. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

22nd July 2008, 03:18 AM	#3
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,309	I think we must also make it crystal clear to any applicants that presenting a case report of a patient who survived an infection or other pathology with a high (but under 100%) fatality rate, does not count. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

22nd July 2008, 05:25 AM	#5
logical muse LogMu Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,082	Originally Posted by Delvo What do you mean by "self-limiting"? Quote: self·-limiting (self′lim′it iŋ) adjective that terminates by the natural course of events a self-limiting disease Quote: illness: Patients may have a serious life-threatening condition or a trivial self-limiting illness. http://www.yourdictionary.com/self-limiting
logical muse LogMu Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,082	__________________ how to spell definitely evolution is not just a theory "Far from terminating the vicious regress, God aggravates it with a vengeance." -- Richard Dawkins

22nd July 2008, 05:55 AM	#7
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Drums fingers. Puts on kettle
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

22nd July 2008, 05:08 AM	#4
Delvo Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Posts: 3,870	What do you mean by "self-limiting"?

22nd July 2008, 05:44 AM	#6
TheDaver hairy farting brute Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Montréal Posts: 972	Originally Posted by Rolfe I think we must also make it crystal clear to any applicants that presenting a case report of a patient who survived an infection or other pathology with a high (but under 100%) fatality rate, does not count. Rolfe. Of course, because correlation ≠ causality, but then again, that logical fact somehow escapes many people.

22nd July 2008, 06:23 AM	#8
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Pays de Gex Posts: 2,094	I've got chocolate digestives here. What about you guys?
	__________________ "But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"

22nd July 2008, 06:37 AM	#9
logical muse LogMu Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,082	Originally Posted by malbui I've got chocolate digestives here. McVitie's?
logical muse LogMu Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2,082	__________________ how to spell definitely evolution is not just a theory "Far from terminating the vicious regress, God aggravates it with a vengeance." -- Richard Dawkins

22nd July 2008, 08:02 AM	#10
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	Originally Posted by malbui I've got chocolate digestives here. What about you guys? I've got a Hob Nob. (Probably shouldn't stand so close to the cooker while naked and frying bacon)
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

22nd July 2008, 08:05 AM	#11
NobbyNobbs Gazerbeam's Protege Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The Mended Drum Posts: 5,630	Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey GIVE ONE, YOU ONLY NEED ONE, INCONTROVERTIBLE EXAMPLE, WITH REFERENCES, OF HOMEOPATHY CURING A NON-SELF-LIMITING CONDITION Since this question has caused non-self-limiting damage to the credibility of every homeopath to whom it has been posed, I thought it would benefit from being giving a thread to which enthusiastic contenders may be directed in future. In other words, the homeopathic cure to the loss of credibility of homeopaths is an infintesimal amount of evidence.
	__________________ I wish someone would find something I wrote on this board to be sig-worthy, thereby effectively granting me immortality.--Antiquehunter The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted years on earth the time spent eating butterscotch pudding. AMERICA! NUMBER 1 IN PARTICLE PHYSICS SINCE JULY 4TH, 1776!!! --SusanConstant

22nd July 2008, 02:30 PM	#12
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	I'd like to hear more about Andre Saine's apparent claims that homeopathy cures rabies. Does anyone know about the basis on which those claims are founded? DUllman said "Andre Saine’s forthcoming book, The Weight of Evidence, will probably provide us all with this evidence about rabies."
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

22nd July 2008, 02:33 PM	#13
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	To help the homeopaths I'll also highlight the alleged cures of cancer claimed using the "Banerji Protocol" These claims are superficially impressive. Can anyone comment on the quality of these claims?
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent. Last edited by Badly Shaved Monkey; 22nd July 2008 at 02:35 PM.

22nd July 2008, 07:04 PM	#14
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,409	Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey I'd like to hear more about Andre Saine's apparent claims that homeopathy cures rabies. Does anyone know about the basis on which those claims are founded? << snip >> Well. It is certainly true that none of the patients ever treated in this way have ever complained it did not work.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

22nd July 2008, 10:39 PM	#15
fls Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10,236	Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey To help the homeopaths I'll also highlight the alleged cures of cancer claimed using the "Banerji Protocol" These claims are superficially impressive. Can anyone comment on the quality of these claims? Out of seven cases, one 'brain cancer' was not confirmed with tissue examination. One biopsy and one fine-needle aspirate gave questionable results as to the presence of cancer. Three biopsies seem to confirm the presence of cancer, but they did not specify whether other treatment was provided. This leaves one diagnosis made on the basis of fine needle aspirate (small cell lung ca) where no other treatment was received. What is the chance that the pathologist made a mistake with a sample type that has less reliability than biopsy or that there was spontaneous regression of a tumour type for which spontaneous regression has previously been reported (albeit rarely)? Linda
	__________________ God:a capricious creative or controlling force said to be the subject of a religion. Evidence is anything that tends to make a proposition more or less true.-Loss Leader SCAM will now be referred to as DIM (Demonstrably Ineffective Medicine) Look how nicely I'm not reminding you you're dumb.-Happy Bunny When I give an example, do not assume I am excluding every other possible example. Thank you.

22nd July 2008, 10:47 PM	#16
fls Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10,236	Originally Posted by Badly Shaved Monkey I'd like to hear more about Andre Saine's apparent claims that homeopathy cures rabies. Does anyone know about the basis on which those claims are founded? In this article, he refers to clinical rabies. The wording suggests that these were not confirmed by laboratory testing, and so simply may not have been rabies. Linda
	__________________ God:a capricious creative or controlling force said to be the subject of a religion. Evidence is anything that tends to make a proposition more or less true.-Loss Leader SCAM will now be referred to as DIM (Demonstrably Ineffective Medicine) Look how nicely I'm not reminding you you're dumb.-Happy Bunny When I give an example, do not assume I am excluding every other possible example. Thank you.

23rd July 2008, 02:27 AM	#17
Kuko 4000 Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 1,550	I'm trying to arrange a meeting with one of the most prominent homeopaths of my town. I've heard that she's scientifically informed. She's studied in the university of Helsinki and been involved in some very high profile science tv series here in Finland. This is what I've heard. I'm also trying to get her to join this forum for constructive discussions. Let's see what happens.

27th July 2008, 04:29 PM	#18
Acleron Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: In a beautifully understandable universe Posts: 1,927	Originally Posted by fls In this article, he refers to clinical rabies. The wording suggests that these were not confirmed by laboratory testing, and so simply may not have been rabies. Linda The full broadcast is available. Remember to keep the aspirin ready for the non-Novella parts. My brain still hurts from the memory of listening to it. I'm sure if Saine had evidence for all these claims that somebody else would have at least part of that evidence. As no-one has even tried to answer BSM's challenge (to my limited knowledge), I rest assured the evidence doesn't exist.