Presidential hopeful asks to be "instrument of Lord's will"

webfusion · 26th July 2008, 09:06 PM

"Lord - protect my family and me. Forgive my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will"

This is the handwritten message that was placed within the cracks at the Western Wall of Jerusalem's Temple Mount, by the US Democrat presumptive-nominee during his recent visit to Israel. (Private folded-up notes are traditionally placed there, asking for blessings from God)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005749.html

Can anyone define what is meant by someone asking to be "instrument of God's will"?
(If this thread belongs in the Religion Forum, then so be it).

Oliver · 26th July 2008, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

"Lord - protect my family and me. Forgive my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will"

This is the handwritten message that was placed within the cracks at the Western Wall of Jerusalem's Temple Mount, by the US Democrat presumptive-nominee during his recent visit to Israel. (Private folded-up notes are traditionally placed there, asking for blessings from God)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005749.html

Can anyone define what is meant by someone asking to be "instrument of God's will"?
(If this thread belongs in the Religion Forum, then so be it).

You mean this is more ridiculous than McCains "I believe in evolution. But I also believe, when I hike the Grand Canyon and see it at sunset, that the hand of God is there also."?

If not - what's your point?

Texas · 26th July 2008, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

"Lord - protect my family and me. Forgive my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will"

This is the handwritten message that was placed within the cracks at the Western Wall of Jerusalem's Temple Mount, by the US Democrat presumptive-nominee during his recent visit to Israel. (Private folded-up notes are traditionally placed there, asking for blessings from God)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005749.html

Can anyone define what is meant by someone asking to be "instrument of God's will"?
(If this thread belongs in the Religion Forum, then so be it).

All I know is that when Bush said pretty much the same thing the left went into spasms. Since it is Obama I'm sure he will issue a couple of clarifications shortly and all will be forgiven.

Slayhamlet · 27th July 2008, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

You mean this is more ridiculous than McCains "I believe in evolution. But I also believe, when I hike the Grand Canyon and see it at sunset, that the hand of God is there also."?

If not - what's your point?

Sounds like a pretty typical response for any non-fundamentalist theist. Excepting theism itself, what's so ridiculous about it?

Wolfman · 27th July 2008, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

"Lord - protect my family and me. Forgive my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will"

I'm trying to think, if I was a Presidential candidate (and a theist/Christian), and I knew I was going to need to place a prayer that could (and likely would) be read by others, what would I write?

Would I confess my personal weaknesses, and ask for help? Would I discuss my temptations, and ask for help in overcoming them?

Naw. I'd do that in the privacy of my home. In public, I'd choose something fairly generic. Which is just what he did.

SezMe · 27th July 2008, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

(Private folded-up notes are traditionally placed there, asking for blessings from God)

If the notes are private, how do you know the contents? Are the contents of all private notes published? Who collects, controls and reveals the contents of said notes? Does the press publish note contents of all politicians who perform this act?

And so on. I'b be interested in some detailed background to this, er, revalation.

SezMe · 27th July 2008, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by Texas

All I know is that when Bush said pretty much the same thing the left went into spasms. Since it is Obama I'm sure he will issue a couple of clarifications shortly and all will be forgiven.

Could you cite when Bush said pretty much the same thing? Could you cite examples of the left going into spames? Thanks, Texas.

The Fool · 27th July 2008, 04:14 AM

Who exactly is claiming responsibility for reading and publishing this note. Is god going to smite them?

Undesired Walrus · 27th July 2008, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

You mean this is more ridiculous than McCains "I believe in evolution. But I also believe, when I hike the Grand Canyon and see it at sunset, that the hand of God is there also."?

If not - what's your point?

Yes, can't be much more ridiculous than Ron Paul's 'There isn't enough evidence of the side of evolution for me to accept it', can it?

Cleon · 27th July 2008, 06:26 AM

Seems like a pretty standard prayer that any Christian, Jew, or Muslim would write.

What of it? It's not like Obama's religious inclinations were a secret or anything.

Just thinking · 27th July 2008, 06:53 AM

I think it's the "God's will" part. If any Republican said that it would be countered with ..."and just what exactly is God's will?".

How ridiculously presumptive of anyone to know God's will --- in that there is a God and that he will make you conform to it.

Cleon · 27th July 2008, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Just thinking

I think it's the "God's will" part. If any Republican said that it would be countered with ..."and just what exactly is God's will?".

How ridiculously presumptive of anyone to know God's will --- in that there is a God and that he will make you conform to it.

So this is nothing more than the standard run-of-the-mill complaint against religious politicians.

Well, all I can say is suck it up and deal. The only avowed atheists running for President are doing so on third-party Marxist tickets.

Boo · 27th July 2008, 07:13 AM

Expectation of loss of privacy or a US Presidential candidate is presumed within the US and to certain degree when touring overseas. I must admit to this incident leaving a bad taste in my mouth that his private prayer was taken and published at a site where millions have gone to leave private prayers assured that they would not be revealed.

Has this happened before to any other political figure with their prayers placed at the Wall?

Boo

Undesired Walrus · 27th July 2008, 07:15 AM

As someone who thinks Obama is a brilliant man, I do believe that many on the left would jump all over McCain or Bush 43 if they wrote the 'instrument' and 'will' part, and the double-standard is surely unfair. When the current US President said that God told him to invade Iraq, there was an uproar in the British press.

Cleon · 27th July 2008, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

As someone who thinks Obama is a brilliant man, I do believe that many on the left would jump all over McCain or Bush 43 if they wrote the 'instrument' and 'will' part, and the double-standard is surely unfair. When the current US President said that God told him to invade Iraq, there was an uproar in the British press.

AFAIK, Obama hasn't said he claims to know what "God's will" is. Which, IMO, puts him in a different league than someone who claims he took a particular course of action because God told him it was a good idea.

I'm thinking it's been a long, long time since some people here were religious. "Help me do your will" is pretty standard prayer material for pretty much all religions, and doesn't imply that two-way communication has taken place.

Cleon · 27th July 2008, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Boo

Expectation of loss of privacy or a US Presidential candidate is presumed within the US and to certain degree when touring overseas. I must admit to this incident leaving a bad taste in my mouth that his private prayer was taken and published at a site where millions have gone to leave private prayers assured that they would not be revealed.

Agreed. Completely.

Quote:

Has this happened before to any other political figure with their prayers placed at the Wall?

No, I don't believe so. From a Jewish POV, this is really, really uncouth.

The Rabbi who oversees the Wall is pretty cheesed off about it, too.

Weird. I don't often find myself in agreement with important Israeli rabbis.

Cain · 27th July 2008, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

Seems like a pretty standard prayer that any Christian, Jew, or Muslim would write.

Aha! So you're admitting he's a Muslim!

Cain · 27th July 2008, 07:54 AM

As for jumping all over a Republican invoking "God's will," well, we have to make a distinction. It's perfectly natural and appropriate for two people to literally say the same thing but connote different things entirely; you have to take into account a person's belief system. Is anyone going to deny that previous statements help us make sense of present statements? In unprepared comments Bush invoked the word "crusade," and there was the whole comment about God wanting him to be President. He's the "human rights" president who is going to protect us all from the evil-doers. His demented Messianism is known, so we might (reasonably) view a "God's will" remark in a different light.

You can question these narratives. How does McCain get away with so many basic errors? Distinguishing between Sunni and Shia? Iraq's borders? His documented nastiness?

The Nobama crowd must be pretty desperate if they have to jump over this rather innocuous, and I think we can agree entirely ineffectual, one-sided prayer.

Cleon · 27th July 2008, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

Aha! So you're admitting he's a Muslim!

Just thinking · 27th July 2008, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

So this is nothing more than the standard run-of-the-mill complaint against religious politicians.

Well, all I can say is suck it up and deal. The only avowed atheists running for President are doing so on third-party Marxist tickets.

You talkin' to me???

Suddenly · 27th July 2008, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Cain

As for jumping all over a Republican invoking "God's will," well, we have to make a distinction. It's perfectly natural and appropriate for two people to literally say the same thing but connote different things entirely; you have to take into account a person's belief system. Is anyone going to deny that previous statements help us make sense of present statements? In unprepared comments Bush invoked the word "crusade," and there was the whole comment about God wanting him to be President. He's the "human rights" president who is going to protect us all from the evil-doers. His demented Messianism is known, so we might (reasonably) view a "God's will" remark in a different light.

You can question these narratives. How does McCain get away with so many basic errors? Distinguishing between Sunni and Shia? Iraq's borders? His documented nastiness?

The Nobama crowd must be pretty desperate if they have to jump over this rather innocuous, and I think we can agree entirely ineffectual, one-sided prayer.

I agree with this.

I think a simple way of putting it is a theist that hopes for guidence from god (instrument of his will) is observing the virtue of humility.

A theist that thinks, deep down inside, that he is an instrument of god's will is a maniac.

webfusion · 27th July 2008, 02:02 PM

Two elements are at play here -- the contents of the note itself, and the removal of the note from the crack where it was placed.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005882.html
Ma'ariv issued a response Sunday, saying that "Obama's note was published in Ma'ariv and other international publications following Obama's authorization to make the content of the note public. Obama submitted a copy of the note to media outlets when he left his hotel in Jerusalem. Moreover, since Obama is not Jewish, there is no violation of privacy as there would be for a Jewish person who places a note in the Western Wall."

A lawsuit is pending. ( I kid you not )

drkitten · 27th July 2008, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

As someone who thinks Obama is a brilliant man, I do believe that many on the left would jump all over McCain or Bush 43 if they wrote the 'instrument' and 'will' part, and the double-standard is surely unfair.

As others have written, I don't think it's a double standard.

"Make me an instrument of God's will" is a fairly standard, vanilla, prayer. Heck, it's almost part of the Lord's Prayer -- "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done."

Quote:

When the current US President said that God told him to invade Iraq, there was an uproar in the British press.

There's a difference between hoping that God will arrange events to make me an instrument for good, and believing that God has given me a three-ring-binder full of instructions. In many denominations of Christianity, believing that God gives you personal instructions is considered the height of arrogance and proof positive that the devil is tempting you, precisely because God's will -- real though it may be -- is not know or even knowable.

Oliver · 27th July 2008, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Slayhamlet

Sounds like a pretty typical response for any non-fundamentalist theist. Excepting theism itself, what's so ridiculous about it?

Because it's an appeasement for his religious AND non-religious voters. Quite a stretch, isn't it?

However, and since it's 2008, it's time to get rid of Religious Crap during US-Elections in general, don't you think? [Obama's religious BS, of course, included]

Loss Leader · 27th July 2008, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

If the notes are private, how do you know the contents? Are the contents of all private notes published? Who collects, controls and reveals the contents of said notes? Does the press publish note contents of all politicians who perform this act?

And so on. I'b be interested in some detailed background to this, er, revalation.

The Western Wall is a public place in Israel, although a holy site. People write notes and shove them into the cracks in the walls. There, it is expected that they will be left undisturbed. That's just common decency. Twice a year, a government-paid rabbi removes thousands of notes. The old notes are buried in a nearby cemetery according to Jewish tradition.

However, there's no one standing there to physically prevent anyone from going up to the wall, grabbing a note and reading it.

I would imagine that one would have to be fairly surreptitious about it, though. I cannot imagine the reaction of anyone who saw a person do this. It would be like urinating in a crowded elevator - people would be horrified.

Notes in the wall: http://z.about.com/d/judaism/1/5/X/1...otesinwall.jpg

chipmunk stew · 28th July 2008, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfman

I'm trying to think, if I was a Presidential candidate (and a theist/Christian), and I knew I was going to need to place a prayer that could (and likely would) be read by others, what would I write?

Would I confess my personal weaknesses, and ask for help? Would I discuss my temptations, and ask for help in overcoming them?

Naw. I'd do that in the privacy of my home. In public, I'd choose something fairly generic. Which is just what he did.

Bingo.

boloboffin · 28th July 2008, 11:30 AM

"Make me an instrument of your will" is also an allusion to the prayer of St. Francis:

Quote:

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.

An interesting switch for the final word, however.

Brainster · 28th July 2008, 11:38 AM

Obama's attempt to reach out to conservative Christians seems as likely to succeed as the OP's attempt to reach out to liberal Atheists.

Jimbo07 · 28th July 2008, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

Obama's attempt to reach out to conservative Christians seems as likely to succeed as the OP's attempt to reach out to liberal Atheists.

...and the world stood on its head! I've agreed with Brainster about something!

My prediction is that much like angry Hillary supporters going to Obama, I think angry fundamentalists will still go to McCain, merely due to lack of choices.

People shouldn't be worried that religion will play the same role in an Obama administration as in the Bush administration...

daredelvis · 28th July 2008, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

A lawsuit is pending. ( I kid you not )

Evidence?? By Obama, as you are implying?

Daredelvis

chipmunk stew · 28th July 2008, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

...and the world stood on its head! I've agreed with Brainster about something!

I don't think Obama's goal is to win over conservative Xians, though. It's merely to defuse the rumor that he's an angry Black Liberation crypto-Muslim Antichrist. Just your average, everyday churchgoer.

Slayhamlet · 28th July 2008, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Because it's an appeasement for his religious AND non-religious voters. Quite a stretch, isn't it?

You have zero evidence that McCain doesn't actually believe exactly what he said he does, any more or less than every other candidate who has invoked religion, including Obama. Nothing he said suggests appeasement, which you've only now brought up in a weak attempt to cover for your idiotic statement. Unfortunately for you, you just aren't smart enough to pull it off.

Quote:

However, and since it's 2008, it's time to get rid of Religious Crap during US-Elections in general, don't you think? [Obama's religious BS, of course, included]

What about Ron Paul's far more egregious religious BS? Your glaring bias is so obvious that it's nearly impossible for anyone to take you seriously.

gdnp · 28th July 2008, 09:34 PM

I have often heard in church that to be truly observant one must fully submit to God's will, giving up one's own desires to serve God. Jesus had his disciples drop what they were doing to follow him. In another instance he essentially told someone who wanted to go home and say goodbye to his family "if you do, don't come back". A good Christian is supposed to submit entirely. So asking to be made an instrument of God's will is a statement of humility and submission to divine power. A perfectly appropriate statement for a Christian to make.

Of course, his opponents will probably claim that what he really means is that he plans on strapping on a suicide belt and blowing himself up during the State of the Union address.

Texas · 28th July 2008, 09:47 PM

If this is true then it is a very cynical move on Obama's part:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005882.html

Quote:

. Obama submitted a copy of the note to media outlets when he left his hotel in Jerusalem. Moreover, since Obama is not Jewish, there is no violation of privacy as there would be for a Jewish person who places a note in the Western Wall."

moon1969 · 29th July 2008, 10:24 AM

Its between him and his lord. I tought prayers should be private? Even some rabbi said that it was wrong to publish Obamas private prayer. The hole thing sounds like something Karl Rove would do. McCain better remember that Karl Rove and George W. Bush smeared McCain in 2000 elections and did push polling in South Carolina. Tells alot about McCain if his friends with people like Karl Rove and George W. Bush who smeared his black daugther Bridget McCain.

hgc · 29th July 2008, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

I think a simple way of putting it is a theist that hopes for guidence from god (instrument of his will) is observing the virtue of humility.

A theist that thinks, deep down inside, that he is an instrument of god's will is a maniac.

I'm not sure I get the difference, except that it falls somewhere in between "hopes for guidance" and "thinks, deep down inside."

But then maybe receiving signals from an external source that doesn't exist is just a bit maniacal, or something.

Peephole · 29th July 2008, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by Texas

If this is true then it is a very cynical move on Obama's part:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005882.html

Good thing it's not.

I just got off the phone with a Ma'ariv spokesman who says that the accusation is "completely false," and that he has no idea who these papers were quoting from Ma'ariv. "No official spokesman for Ma'ariv told this to any of the papers." I've got some calls in to these papers to find out where they got the quote. (I'll update here when I hear back.) He told me definitively that "the Obama campaign did not give us a copy of the letter or approve it for printing."

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_p...indicated.aspx

boloboffin · 30th July 2008, 02:04 AM

Well, my goodness. I think some people here owe Obama an apology.

Suddenly · 30th July 2008, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by hgc

I'm not sure I get the difference, except that it falls somewhere in between "hopes for guidance" and "thinks, deep down inside."

But then maybe receiving signals from an external source that doesn't exist is just a bit maniacal, or something.

"God told me to invade Iraq."

"I am going to invade Iraq, hopefully this will be OK with God."

I've before made a distinction between "Red Jesus" and "Blue Jesus," sort of like Red States and Blue States.

Red Jesus wants you do do as he says, or his daddy will make you pay unless you grovel, and sometimes that won't cut it.

Blue Jesus wants you to do the best you can, and if you mean well no matter how much you screw up all is cool as long as you are really trying to be a good person and believe his daddy is as well.

Red Jesus is religious, Blue Jesus is mostly a device to give a higher meaning to being a decent person in general in a world where different people have different ideas as to what being a decent person is.

Followers of each tend to be shocked at the others.

Red Jesus Follower: Those Blue Jesus people are OK with homosexuals, even though they are sinning against God. Fools!!!! They will BURN!!!!

Blue Jesus Follower: Those Red Jesus freaks do nothing but hate. That isn't what Jesus is about, he's about love. Oh well, I guess they mean well so God will forgive.

Both are silly, but the former seeks to step on my toes so I tend to be a little more concened about the Reds. The Blues are so flexable that their beliefs and faith are practically meaningless, and therefore harmless. They are people that use religion more as a security blanket than a prime mover of thought.

daredelvis · 30th July 2008, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

A lawsuit is pending. ( I kid you not )

Originally Posted by daredelvis

Evidence?? By Obama, as you are implying?

Daredelvis

No evidence, no surprise.

Daredelvis

26th July 2008, 09:06 PM	#1
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Presidential hopeful asks to be "instrument of Lord's will" "Lord - protect my family and me. Forgive my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will" This is the handwritten message that was placed within the cracks at the Western Wall of Jerusalem's Temple Mount, by the US Democrat presumptive-nominee during his recent visit to Israel. (Private folded-up notes are traditionally placed there, asking for blessings from God) http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005749.html Can anyone define what is meant by someone asking to be "instrument of God's will"? (If this thread belongs in the Religion Forum, then so be it).

26th July 2008, 09:42 PM	#2
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by webfusion "Lord - protect my family and me. Forgive my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will" This is the handwritten message that was placed within the cracks at the Western Wall of Jerusalem's Temple Mount, by the US Democrat presumptive-nominee during his recent visit to Israel. (Private folded-up notes are traditionally placed there, asking for blessings from God) http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005749.html Can anyone define what is meant by someone asking to be "instrument of God's will"? (If this thread belongs in the Religion Forum, then so be it). You mean this is more ridiculous than McCains "I believe in evolution. But I also believe, when I hike the Grand Canyon and see it at sunset, that the hand of God is there also."? If not - what's your point?
	__________________

26th July 2008, 09:47 PM	#3
Texas Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,847	Originally Posted by webfusion "Lord - protect my family and me. Forgive my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will" This is the handwritten message that was placed within the cracks at the Western Wall of Jerusalem's Temple Mount, by the US Democrat presumptive-nominee during his recent visit to Israel. (Private folded-up notes are traditionally placed there, asking for blessings from God) http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005749.html Can anyone define what is meant by someone asking to be "instrument of God's will"? (If this thread belongs in the Religion Forum, then so be it). All I know is that when Bush said pretty much the same thing the left went into spasms. Since it is Obama I'm sure he will issue a couple of clarifications shortly and all will be forgiven.
Texas Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,847

27th July 2008, 12:47 AM	#5
Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dongguan, China Posts: 11,809	Originally Posted by webfusion "Lord - protect my family and me. Forgive my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just. And make me an instrument of your will" I'm trying to think, if I was a Presidential candidate (and a theist/Christian), and I knew I was going to need to place a prayer that could (and likely would) be read by others, what would I write? Would I confess my personal weaknesses, and ask for help? Would I discuss my temptations, and ask for help in overcoming them? Naw. I'd do that in the privacy of my home. In public, I'd choose something fairly generic. Which is just what he did.
	__________________ The Meta-Solipsistic Autosycophant mantra: "I post, therefore I am nominated"

27th July 2008, 04:14 AM	#8
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Who exactly is claiming responsibility for reading and publishing this note. Is god going to smite them?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

27th July 2008, 12:34 AM	#4
Slayhamlet Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,427	Originally Posted by Oliver You mean this is more ridiculous than McCains "I believe in evolution. But I also believe, when I hike the Grand Canyon and see it at sunset, that the hand of God is there also."? If not - what's your point? Sounds like a pretty typical response for any non-fundamentalist theist. Excepting theism itself, what's so ridiculous about it?

27th July 2008, 01:39 AM	#6
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,369	Originally Posted by webfusion (Private folded-up notes are traditionally placed there, asking for blessings from God) If the notes are private, how do you know the contents? Are the contents of all private notes published? Who collects, controls and reveals the contents of said notes? Does the press publish note contents of all politicians who perform this act? And so on. I'b be interested in some detailed background to this, er, revalation.

27th July 2008, 01:41 AM	#7
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,369	Originally Posted by Texas All I know is that when Bush said pretty much the same thing the left went into spasms. Since it is Obama I'm sure he will issue a couple of clarifications shortly and all will be forgiven. Could you cite when Bush said pretty much the same thing? Could you cite examples of the left going into spames? Thanks, Texas.

27th July 2008, 04:30 AM	#9
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,890	Originally Posted by Oliver You mean this is more ridiculous than McCains "I believe in evolution. But I also believe, when I hike the Grand Canyon and see it at sunset, that the hand of God is there also."? If not - what's your point? Yes, can't be much more ridiculous than Ron Paul's 'There isn't enough evidence of the side of evolution for me to accept it', can it?
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945 Last edited by Undesired Walrus; 27th July 2008 at 04:31 AM.

27th July 2008, 06:26 AM	#10
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,532	Seems like a pretty standard prayer that any Christian, Jew, or Muslim would write. What of it? It's not like Obama's religious inclinations were a secret or anything.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

27th July 2008, 06:53 AM	#11
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	I think it's the "God's will" part. If any Republican said that it would be countered with ..."and just what exactly is God's will?". How ridiculously presumptive of anyone to know God's will --- in that there is a God and that he will make you conform to it.
	__________________ Our greatest challenge is not just to ask the important questions, but to recognize the meaningless ones. Last edited by Just thinking; 27th July 2008 at 06:56 AM.

27th July 2008, 07:03 AM	#12
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,532	Originally Posted by Just thinking I think it's the "God's will" part. If any Republican said that it would be countered with ..."and just what exactly is God's will?". How ridiculously presumptive of anyone to know God's will --- in that there is a God and that he will make you conform to it. So this is nothing more than the standard run-of-the-mill complaint against religious politicians. Well, all I can say is suck it up and deal. The only avowed atheists running for President are doing so on third-party Marxist tickets.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

27th July 2008, 07:13 AM	#13
Boo ts Join Date: May 2003 Location: state of chaos Posts: 3,743	Expectation of loss of privacy or a US Presidential candidate is presumed within the US and to certain degree when touring overseas. I must admit to this incident leaving a bad taste in my mouth that his private prayer was taken and published at a site where millions have gone to leave private prayers assured that they would not be revealed. Has this happened before to any other political figure with their prayers placed at the Wall? Boo
	__________________ Wounds heal. Morally Obtuse. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.

27th July 2008, 07:15 AM	#14
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,890	As someone who thinks Obama is a brilliant man, I do believe that many on the left would jump all over McCain or Bush 43 if they wrote the 'instrument' and 'will' part, and the double-standard is surely unfair. When the current US President said that God told him to invade Iraq, there was an uproar in the British press.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

27th July 2008, 07:20 AM	#15
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,532	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus As someone who thinks Obama is a brilliant man, I do believe that many on the left would jump all over McCain or Bush 43 if they wrote the 'instrument' and 'will' part, and the double-standard is surely unfair. When the current US President said that God told him to invade Iraq, there was an uproar in the British press. AFAIK, Obama hasn't said he claims to know what "God's will" is. Which, IMO, puts him in a different league than someone who claims he took a particular course of action because God told him it was a good idea. I'm thinking it's been a long, long time since some people here were religious. "Help me do your will" is pretty standard prayer material for pretty much all religions, and doesn't imply that two-way communication has taken place.
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27th July 2008, 07:25 AM	#16
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,532	Originally Posted by Boo Expectation of loss of privacy or a US Presidential candidate is presumed within the US and to certain degree when touring overseas. I must admit to this incident leaving a bad taste in my mouth that his private prayer was taken and published at a site where millions have gone to leave private prayers assured that they would not be revealed. Agreed. Completely. Quote: Has this happened before to any other political figure with their prayers placed at the Wall? No, I don't believe so. From a Jewish POV, this is really, really uncouth. The Rabbi who oversees the Wall is pretty cheesed off about it, too. Weird. I don't often find myself in agreement with important Israeli rabbis.
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27th July 2008, 07:51 AM	#17
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,937	Originally Posted by Cleon Seems like a pretty standard prayer that any Christian, Jew, or Muslim would write. Aha! So you're admitting he's a Muslim!
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27th July 2008, 07:54 AM	#18
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,937	As for jumping all over a Republican invoking "God's will," well, we have to make a distinction. It's perfectly natural and appropriate for two people to literally say the same thing but connote different things entirely; you have to take into account a person's belief system. Is anyone going to deny that previous statements help us make sense of present statements? In unprepared comments Bush invoked the word "crusade," and there was the whole comment about God wanting him to be President. He's the "human rights" president who is going to protect us all from the evil-doers. His demented Messianism is known, so we might (reasonably) view a "God's will" remark in a different light. You can question these narratives. How does McCain get away with so many basic errors? Distinguishing between Sunni and Shia? Iraq's borders? His documented nastiness? The Nobama crowd must be pretty desperate if they have to jump over this rather innocuous, and I think we can agree entirely ineffectual, one-sided prayer.
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27th July 2008, 07:59 AM	#19
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,532	Originally Posted by Cain Aha! So you're admitting he's a Muslim!
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27th July 2008, 11:03 AM	#20
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	Originally Posted by Cleon So this is nothing more than the standard run-of-the-mill complaint against religious politicians. Well, all I can say is suck it up and deal. The only avowed atheists running for President are doing so on third-party Marxist tickets. You talkin' to me???
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27th July 2008, 12:30 PM	#21
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Montani Semper Liberi Posts: 2,645	Originally Posted by Cain As for jumping all over a Republican invoking "God's will," well, we have to make a distinction. It's perfectly natural and appropriate for two people to literally say the same thing but connote different things entirely; you have to take into account a person's belief system. Is anyone going to deny that previous statements help us make sense of present statements? In unprepared comments Bush invoked the word "crusade," and there was the whole comment about God wanting him to be President. He's the "human rights" president who is going to protect us all from the evil-doers. His demented Messianism is known, so we might (reasonably) view a "God's will" remark in a different light. You can question these narratives. How does McCain get away with so many basic errors? Distinguishing between Sunni and Shia? Iraq's borders? His documented nastiness? The Nobama crowd must be pretty desperate if they have to jump over this rather innocuous, and I think we can agree entirely ineffectual, one-sided prayer. I agree with this. I think a simple way of putting it is a theist that hopes for guidence from god (instrument of his will) is observing the virtue of humility. A theist that thinks, deep down inside, that he is an instrument of god's will is a maniac.
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27th July 2008, 02:02 PM	#22
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	The Plot Thickens Two elements are at play here -- the contents of the note itself, and the removal of the note from the crack where it was placed. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005882.html Ma'ariv issued a response Sunday, saying that "Obama's note was published in Ma'ariv and other international publications following Obama's authorization to make the content of the note public. Obama submitted a copy of the note to media outlets when he left his hotel in Jerusalem. Moreover, since Obama is not Jewish, there is no violation of privacy as there would be for a Jewish person who places a note in the Western Wall." A lawsuit is pending. ( I kid you not )

27th July 2008, 03:53 PM	#23
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus As someone who thinks Obama is a brilliant man, I do believe that many on the left would jump all over McCain or Bush 43 if they wrote the 'instrument' and 'will' part, and the double-standard is surely unfair. As others have written, I don't think it's a double standard. "Make me an instrument of God's will" is a fairly standard, vanilla, prayer. Heck, it's almost part of the Lord's Prayer -- "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done." Quote: When the current US President said that God told him to invade Iraq, there was an uproar in the British press. There's a difference between hoping that God will arrange events to make me an instrument for good, and believing that God has given me a three-ring-binder full of instructions. In many denominations of Christianity, believing that God gives you personal instructions is considered the height of arrogance and proof positive that the devil is tempting you, precisely because God's will -- real though it may be -- is not know or even knowable.

27th July 2008, 04:24 PM	#24
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Slayhamlet Sounds like a pretty typical response for any non-fundamentalist theist. Excepting theism itself, what's so ridiculous about it? Because it's an appeasement for his religious AND non-religious voters. Quite a stretch, isn't it? However, and since it's 2008, it's time to get rid of Religious Crap during US-Elections in general, don't you think? [Obama's religious BS, of course, included]
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27th July 2008, 05:40 PM	#25
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,885	Originally Posted by SezMe If the notes are private, how do you know the contents? Are the contents of all private notes published? Who collects, controls and reveals the contents of said notes? Does the press publish note contents of all politicians who perform this act? And so on. I'b be interested in some detailed background to this, er, revalation. The Western Wall is a public place in Israel, although a holy site. People write notes and shove them into the cracks in the walls. There, it is expected that they will be left undisturbed. That's just common decency. Twice a year, a government-paid rabbi removes thousands of notes. The old notes are buried in a nearby cemetery according to Jewish tradition. However, there's no one standing there to physically prevent anyone from going up to the wall, grabbing a note and reading it. I would imagine that one would have to be fairly surreptitious about it, though. I cannot imagine the reaction of anyone who saw a person do this. It would be like urinating in a crowded elevator - people would be horrified. Notes in the wall: http://z.about.com/d/judaism/1/5/X/1...otesinwall.jpg
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28th July 2008, 10:31 AM	#26
chipmunk stew The Spikey Mace of Love and Mercy Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SE PA Posts: 7,465	Originally Posted by Wolfman I'm trying to think, if I was a Presidential candidate (and a theist/Christian), and I knew I was going to need to place a prayer that could (and likely would) be read by others, what would I write? Would I confess my personal weaknesses, and ask for help? Would I discuss my temptations, and ask for help in overcoming them? Naw. I'd do that in the privacy of my home. In public, I'd choose something fairly generic. Which is just what he did. Bingo.
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28th July 2008, 11:30 AM	#27
boloboffin Guest Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 5,001	"Make me an instrument of your will" is also an allusion to the prayer of St. Francis: Quote: Lord, make me an instrument of your peace. An interesting switch for the final word, however.

28th July 2008, 11:38 AM	#28
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 10,429	Obama's attempt to reach out to conservative Christians seems as likely to succeed as the OP's attempt to reach out to liberal Atheists.
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28th July 2008, 01:09 PM	#29
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	Originally Posted by Brainster Obama's attempt to reach out to conservative Christians seems as likely to succeed as the OP's attempt to reach out to liberal Atheists. ...and the world stood on its head! I've agreed with Brainster about something! My prediction is that much like angry Hillary supporters going to Obama, I think angry fundamentalists will still go to McCain, merely due to lack of choices. People shouldn't be worried that religion will play the same role in an Obama administration as in the Bush administration...
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28th July 2008, 01:21 PM	#30
daredelvis Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Houston Posts: 1,867	Originally Posted by webfusion A lawsuit is pending. ( I kid you not ) Evidence?? By Obama, as you are implying? Daredelvis

28th July 2008, 02:23 PM	#31
chipmunk stew The Spikey Mace of Love and Mercy Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SE PA Posts: 7,465	Originally Posted by Jimbo07 ...and the world stood on its head! I've agreed with Brainster about something! I don't think Obama's goal is to win over conservative Xians, though. It's merely to defuse the rumor that he's an angry Black Liberation crypto-Muslim Antichrist. Just your average, everyday churchgoer.
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28th July 2008, 09:02 PM	#32
Slayhamlet Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,427	Originally Posted by Oliver Because it's an appeasement for his religious AND non-religious voters. Quite a stretch, isn't it? You have zero evidence that McCain doesn't actually believe exactly what he said he does, any more or less than every other candidate who has invoked religion, including Obama. Nothing he said suggests appeasement, which you've only now brought up in a weak attempt to cover for your idiotic statement. Unfortunately for you, you just aren't smart enough to pull it off. Quote: However, and since it's 2008, it's time to get rid of Religious Crap during US-Elections in general, don't you think? [Obama's religious BS, of course, included] What about Ron Paul's far more egregious religious BS? Your glaring bias is so obvious that it's nearly impossible for anyone to take you seriously.

28th July 2008, 09:34 PM	#33
gdnp useless idiot Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Jersey-You gotta problem wit dat? Posts: 4,999	I have often heard in church that to be truly observant one must fully submit to God's will, giving up one's own desires to serve God. Jesus had his disciples drop what they were doing to follow him. In another instance he essentially told someone who wanted to go home and say goodbye to his family "if you do, don't come back". A good Christian is supposed to submit entirely. So asking to be made an instrument of God's will is a statement of humility and submission to divine power. A perfectly appropriate statement for a Christian to make. Of course, his opponents will probably claim that what he really means is that he plans on strapping on a suicide belt and blowing himself up during the State of the Union address.

28th July 2008, 09:47 PM	#34
Texas Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,847	If this is true then it is a very cynical move on Obama's part: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1005882.html Quote: . Obama submitted a copy of the note to media outlets when he left his hotel in Jerusalem. Moreover, since Obama is not Jewish, there is no violation of privacy as there would be for a Jewish person who places a note in the Western Wall."
Texas Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,847

29th July 2008, 10:24 AM	#35
moon1969 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,288	Its between him and his lord. I tought prayers should be private? Even some rabbi said that it was wrong to publish Obamas private prayer. The hole thing sounds like something Karl Rove would do. McCain better remember that Karl Rove and George W. Bush smeared McCain in 2000 elections and did push polling in South Carolina. Tells alot about McCain if his friends with people like Karl Rove and George W. Bush who smeared his black daugther Bridget McCain.