Merged: Anthrax Case Solved?

[jhunter1163]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25961053

Well, this should knock those anthrax conspiracy theories on the head.

Actually, it won't, I know, but it should.

[bynmdsue]

but...but is he a joooo?
if not,we must assume he was framed by the true culprits...Jooos!

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25961053

Well, this should knock those anthrax conspiracy theories on the head.

Actually, it won't, I know, but it should.

Hmmm, the main suspect "commits suicide", and then there's this:

Quote:

Just last month, the government exonerated another scientist at the Fort Detrick lab, Steven Hatfill, who had been identified by the FBI as a "person of interest" in the anthrax attacks. The government paid Hatfill $5.82 million to settle a lawsuit he filed against the Justice Department in which he claimed the department violated his privacy rights by speaking with reporters about the case.

Obviously, the Government paid off the real terrorist for his work, and "suicided" a patsy to cover him!

[/CTMode]


Anyways, I'll bet a buck we'll see something like that as a "real" theory within days.

[gdnp]

Nope. The main suspect commits "suicide?" More grist for the CT mill.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Horatius

Hmmm, the main suspect "commits suicide", and then there's this:





Obviously, the Government paid off the real terrorist for his work, and "suicided" a patsy to cover him!

[/CTMode]


Anyways, I'll bet a buck we'll see something like that as a "real" theory within days.

Somebody owes me a buck!

Quote:

Color me skeptical of anyone who becomes a public* suspect only after their death, particularly in a case that has already produced a $5.82 million settlement for the last government scientist who was accused of the crime.

"Within days" subsumes "Within hours", so don't try weaselling out that way!

[Travis]

So the guy was releasing anthrax to test a vaccine? That sounds like a bad movie plot.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Travis

So the guy was releasing anthrax to test a vaccine? That sounds like a bad movie plot.

To modify a great line from the classic film "All About Eve", so does a lot of the events of the last ten years.
Actually both releasing the anthrax and offing himself fit the pattern of a total loon, but try telling the CTers that.
It's just a variation of a deranged sniper killing himself when the cops started to close in.

[Thunder]

How did the Mossad/Elders of Zion get this guy to OD on painkillers?

I bet he knew all the info about how the Jews did it..and they therefore killed him.

=)

[Drudgewire]

Originally Posted by Horatius

"Within days" subsumes "Within hours", so don't try weaselling out that way!

Still exponentially longer than it took for the DC Madam's suicide conspiracy theories to begin.

[Norseman]

It looks like nothing of substance has been released so far. This could very well be the press jumping the gun prematurely. Some comments of caution by Ed Lake:

http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/#comments

Look at the August 1st entries labeled A, B and C.

Ed Lake has followed the case for years. Some comments by me on Ed Lake from a different thread last year on the anthrax case:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...86#post3001986
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...34#post3003134

One does not have to agree on everything he writes, but he has lot of up to date information for any one interested in monitoring the case.

[manierisme]

www dot salon dot com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/

This is a must-read article (despite Greenwald's usual excessive verbosity) and if our media sucked a little less, would be huge news.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by manierisme

www dot salon dot com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/

This is a must-read article (despite Greenwald's usual excessive verbosity) and if our media sucked a little less, would be huge news.

That is a good article. But it is old news in the big picture of truth in news, and even Glenn seems to using innuendo and some good old hearsay to make his point. Pots and kettles, feeding on each other.

New reports contain errors, you almost need a PhD in everything to see the bs. This article is more bs. News about news, errors on errors. Cool.

The article, it seems to be convoluted, interjections of false recollections, inferring links of anthrax to Iraq, to get Saddam, but Saddam clearly is invade-able with his own deeds to thank.

When I realize the FBI has not released the stuff the media has messed up, it makes me smile as I can be assured of getting credit for something I never did. good or bad in the future, due to stories like Glenn's and typical of many news stories, like he mentions, where the truth is not the goal, but the soap they can sell me is.

His new book...

Quote:

My most recent book, "Great American Hypocrites",...

Is it autobiographical. Excellent stuff. Now I need a few PhDs...

[Jontg]

Look, people, we're gonna need to pull together on this. For the first time in a good while, we have a chance to nip a CT in the bud, and it's our duty as reasonable men to gather all the data necessary to establish a reasonable alternative hypothesis to "OMG DR ivns wuz a patsy!!12!@ anthax wuz insid jobb WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!1111!!!1!!" I would suggest we find out everything we can about Dr. Ivins and the other players here, and quickly--the woo marshals its forces even as we speak.

[Childlike Empress]

Originally Posted by manierisme

www dot salon dot com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/

This is a must-read article (despite Greenwald's usual excessive verbosity) and if our media sucked a little less, would be huge news.

Interesting. He links to a local newspaper in Frederick which published several "Letters to the Editor" authored by Ivins.

He was a Christian Zionist. Last Letter:

Quote:

End of 'dialogue'
Originally published August 24, 2006 Rabbi Morris Kosman is entirely correct in summarily rejecting the demands of the Frederick Imam for a "dialogue."

By blood and faith, Jews are God's chosen, and have no need for "dialogue" with any gentile. End of "dialogue."

Anthrax letters to Brokaw and Leahy:

Quote:

Death to America.
Death to Israel.
Allah is great.

Can't be him.

[BeAChooser]

Re:

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25961053

Perhaps the Feds could explain how Bruce Ivins knew to make a man in Florida, who just happened to work a few miles from where the 9/11 hijackers were staying, his very first case of Anthrax in this country?

And could they tell us the probability that the wife of the editor of the magazine for which the man worked would have shown an apartment to some of the hijackers?

Perhaps the Feds could explain why hijacker Atta was so interested in crop dusters at a time when he already knew he'd be flying a commercial jet into a building?

And why did Zacarias Moussaoui, in an email dated July 31, 2001, inquire of a Minnesota school concerning a 6 month or year long cropdusting course?

Perhaps the Feds could explain how Atta and at least one other hijacker managed to come into contact with something that gave them a skin condition that the physician and pharmacist who saw them in retrospect say was cutaneous anthrax and why a group of experts at the John Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Strategies concur?

And perhaps MSNBC can explain why it mentions none of the above in their article or in any of the linked pages on their webpage? Not a word about the above.

Hmmmm ...

[Profanz]

It really is too bad for the FBI Hatfield didn't commit suicide when they turned up the pressure on him. This whole thing could have been solved much sooner for all of you skeptics here.

I certainly would like to know for one thing who were the "three well-placed but separate sources," followed by "four well-placed and separate sources" that ABC used to push the Iraq link.

Tell me something skeptics. Were the anthrax attacks false flag terrorism?

Who falsely claimed bentonite was found in the Anthrax and why?

Remember this?



Is that Fort Detrick Anthrax he’s holding there?

[maxpower1227]

I think that salon.com article was spammed about 20 different times in the comment section on an abc.com article on this story.

[beachnut]

I better take the BS junk ideas to ATS, where they need the money on advertisement, and you earn brownie points!

Quote:

Bill Sammon
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
October 29, 2001
The White House yesterday disputed reports that the anthrax sent to the Senate contained bentonite, an additive that has been used in Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's biological weapons program.
"Based on the test results we have, no bentonite has been found," White House spokesman Scott Stanzel said in an interview. "As always, there will be continuing tests."

This might no be the guy anyway.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser

Hmmmm ...

Just asking questions again, BAC? What precisely is the theory you are putting forward?

[Oliver]

There's fresh food for the Anthrax CT'S:

Quote:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. Army scientist who apparently committed suicide this week was close to being charged in connection with a series of deadly anthrax attacks in 2001, federal law enforcement officials said on Friday.

Here's the interesting part:

Quote:

The law enforcement officials said the death of Ivins could lead to the end of the FBI's long-running and much-criticized criminal investigation.

Speculate!

Source: http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTopN...35345720080802

[LashL]

Too slow and in the wrong sub-forum, Oliver.

See: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=119999

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe

Just asking questions again, BAC? What precisely is the theory you are putting forward?

I'm more interested in the answers you have to the questions I asked, Kevin. You and Feds do have answers, I presume.

[Oliver]

Oops, my bad. :">

[LashL]

No worries. You should send a note to the moderators asking them to merge your thread with the previous one in the correct sub-forum.

[Oliver]

Done... Thanks for the hint, LashL

[WildCat]

I tried to get into Anthrax back in the day, but in the end I thought they just sucked.

[Tippit]

How convenient! An alleged suspect in the post-9/11 weaponized anthrax attack killed himself.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080802/...hrax_scientist

[yodaluver28]

I don't want to convict the man since I have no idea if he actually did it or not but if he did, it's not uncommon for people who've committed a serious crime and are about to be arrested to commit suicide. If arrested, he very well may have been charged with terrorism in addition to murder.

[Tippit]

Originally Posted by Jontg

Look, people, we're gonna need to pull together on this. For the first time in a good while, we have a chance to nip a CT in the bud, and it's our duty as reasonable men to gather all the data necessary to establish a reasonable alternative hypothesis to "OMG DR ivns wuz a patsy!!12!@ anthax wuz insid jobb WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!1111!!!1!!" I would suggest we find out everything we can about Dr. Ivins and the other players here, and quickly--the woo marshals its forces even as we speak.

Considering that Ivins worked for the US Army biological warfare research lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland, doesn't that constitute evidence that the anthrax attack was an inside job? Or does your definition of "inside job" depend on the alleged motive of the insider?

If there was a conspiracy involving others and Ivins was just a scapegoat, we certainly won't have a way of knowing given his suicide. So any reasonable person will conclude the anthrax attack was an inside job. It's just a question of whether the (now suicided) insider was a deranged loner, or part of a larger conspiracy.

[boloboffin]

The problem with Ivins' suicide as I see it is that he just watched his colleague Stephen Hatfield win a rather large settlement and receive his good name back for exactly the same charge. In other words, if it wasn't true, there would have been a lot of grief but the odds were good that it would turn out well for him.

But he shortcircuited that entire process. He could still be a depressed person who lost reason and thought that this time the FBI would have him, evidence or no, but I tend toward the "probably had the right guy this time" opinion.

ETA: A Christian Zionist, if that's what Ivins turns out to be, would have a very available motive to access for these attacks. That is, provoking a war that the suspect had every reason to believe America and Israel would win.

[gdnp]

Originally Posted by Tippit

Considering that Ivins worked for the US Army biological warfare research lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland, doesn't that constitute evidence that the anthrax attack was an inside job? Or does your definition of "inside job" depend on the alleged motive of the insider?

If there was a conspiracy involving others and Ivins was just a scapegoat, we certainly won't have a way of knowing given his suicide. So any reasonable person will conclude the anthrax attack was an inside job. It's just a question of whether the (now suicided) insider was a deranged loner, or part of a larger conspiracy.

There has long been the suspicion that this was an inside job: not that many people have access to antrax, and IIRC the strain matched one from a government lab. So this is not news. The questions for a long time have been who the insider was, was the insider acting alone, and what was the motivation.

[boloboffin]

Originally Posted by Tippit

Considering that Ivins worked for the US Army biological warfare research lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland, doesn't that constitute evidence that the anthrax attack was an inside job? Or does your definition of "inside job" depend on the alleged motive of the insider?

If there was a conspiracy involving others and Ivins was just a scapegoat, we certainly won't have a way of knowing given his suicide. So any reasonable person will conclude the anthrax attack was an inside job. It's just a question of whether the (now suicided) insider was a deranged loner, or part of a larger conspiracy.

If a loner inside Fort Detrick can still be considered an inside job, then 9/11 can be considered an inside job. The incredible success of the hijackers was in part due to their being "inside" the coverage of NORAD. NORAD was looking at threats coming from outside the country, not internally. The hijackers had infiltrated an area of trust.

But the folks chanting 9/11 was a inside job must mean something more than that, correct?

[gdnp]

Originally Posted by boloboffin

If a loner inside Fort Detrick can still be considered an inside job, then 9/11 can be considered an inside job. The incredible success of the hijackers was in part due to their being "inside" the coverage of NORAD. NORAD was looking at threats coming from outside the country, not internally. The hijackers had infiltrated an area of trust.

But the folks chanting 9/11 was a inside job must mean something more than that, correct?

No, for 9/11 to be an inside job it would have had to have had a conspirator in the US government, FAA, or working for the airlines.

Ivins worked for the government. None of the hijackers did.

Of course, this still does not make it a government conspiracy.

[Allen773]

Originally Posted by WildCat

I tried to get into Anthrax back in the day, but in the end I thought they just sucked.

Caught in a Mosh>Your taste in music.

[Mangoose]

Last night Keith Olbermann discussed possible links with the Bush administration, at least insofar as they (and John McCain) tried to quickly link the anthrax attacks to Iraq. Not really "inside job," but troothers will certainly take that line of interpretation.

[~enigma~]

Originally Posted by Tippit

It's just a question of whether the (now suicided) insider was a deranged loner, or part of a larger conspiracy.

So he was suicided?!?! Do you have any idea what the ld50 is for Tyleno and codeinel? I suppose you actually think that someone force fed the guy about 800 milligrams instead of a more possible accidental overdose (or intentional)...

[Pardalis]

Originally Posted by Tippit

Considering that Ivins worked for the US Army biological warfare research lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland, doesn't that constitute evidence that the anthrax attack was an inside job?

No.

Quote:

So any reasonable person will conclude the anthrax attack was an inside job.

No.

I agree with boloboffin, for it to be an "inside job" you would need evidence of government complicity.

McVeigh worked for the US army, does that mean the Oklahoma City bombing was an inside job? Of course not.

[gdnp]

Originally Posted by Pardalis

I agree with boloboffin, for it to be an "inside job" you would need evidence of government complicity.

If this is agreed then "inside job" is used differently in these threads than elsewhere.

If a store is robbed and it is determined that an employee gave the crooks the combination to the safe for a share of the profits, it is considered an "inside job" even if there was no conspiracy of the store owners.

Oklahoma City would only be considered an "inside job" if McVeigh used some special access or knowledge as a government employee as part of the plot. AFAIK he did not.

[manofthesea]

Why wasn't it ever presupposed that Hatfill may have been just "trying to test a vaccine".

One thing I'd really like to know, who fingered Hatfill?
It was stated early on that a fellow scientist pointed at Hatfill.

Ivins was diagnosed as homicidal and sociopathic. He made homicidal threats dating back to college. Yet, only now he's a suspect.

[Oxigen]

Originally Posted by manofthesea

One thing I'd really like to know, who fingered Hatfill?
It was stated early on that a fellow scientist pointed at Hatfill.

A Barbara Rosenberg.

Ivins was diagnosed as homicidal and sociopathic. He made homicidal threats dating back to college. Yet, only now he's a suspect.

Amazing that he was allowed to work in an anthrax laboratory, in view of these claims!!