How did they cut those?

DC · 5th August 2008, 07:52 AM

we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it.
some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters.

fine and well.

but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it?

you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it.

what do you think?

WildCat · 5th August 2008, 07:54 AM

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Disbelief · 5th August 2008, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

http://media.portland.indymedia.org/.../07/343154.jpg

we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it.
some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters.

fine and well.

but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it?

you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it.

what do you think?

Why ask when you won't believe the answers? All you will do is try to spin this into something "proving" inside job.

DC · 5th August 2008, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

cuts in an angle with molten material around it, and the other cuts?

DC · 5th August 2008, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Why ask when you won't believe the answers? All you will do is try to spin this into something "proving" inside job.

then best dont post in here

thx and bye bye

WildCat · 5th August 2008, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

cuts in an angle with molten material around it, and the other cuts?

I've posted enough information for rational people.

The liars that make up the truth movement will never be convinced.

~enigma~ · 5th August 2008, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

http://media.portland.indymedia.org/.../07/343154.jpg

we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it.
some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters.

fine and well.

but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it?

you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it.

what do you think?

You mean the black slag in the picture is molten metal? Looks solid to me and I am sure others will agree. Maybe the slag was molten at one time but why do you think it is in the picture?

twinstead · 5th August 2008, 08:02 AM

So it appears they rushed in there and started cutting columns with torches so the columns cut with thermite would blend in.

BRILLIANT!

Disbelief · 5th August 2008, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

then best dont post in here

thx and bye bye

Here, I will answer your question. They were cut with torches and plasma cutters.

Myriad · 5th August 2008, 08:14 AM

Most of the column segments in the towers were broken off at the welds by the destructive forces of the collapse. That is the likely cause of any observed column ends that are square and show no sign of torch cutting.

Respectfully,
Myriad

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

You mean the black slag in the picture is molten metal? Looks solid to me and I am sure others will agree. Maybe the slag was molten at one time but why do you think it is in the picture?

mmhhh?? i sure dont think it is still molten, im sure it was molten , but at the time they took the picture, it was prolly not even warm enymore :/

actually i tend to belive the famouse middle cut, was indeed made with a plasma cutter. this is what 6 of my welders confirmed. but then one pointed out the other cuts, they look pretty clean, he asked how they cut that, i told him i dunno

they talked about it, and came to the conclusion that it does not look like plasma cut.

so i wonder how they made those cuts.

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

Most of the column segments in the towers were broken off at the welds by the destructive forces of the collapse. That is the likely cause of any observed column ends that are square and show no sign of torch cutting.

Respectfully,
Myriad

thx, but i have some troubles with it. the shape of the "broken off" columns. i would not expect them to have that good shape after a brake at the weldings.

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Here, I will answer your question. They were cut with torches and plasma cutters.

thx for your attempt :=)

bye bye

phunk · 5th August 2008, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

http://media.portland.indymedia.org/.../07/343154.jpg

we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it.
some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters.

fine and well.

but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it?

you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it.

what do you think?

Simple, the ones with clean square ends weren't cut in the cleanup, those were the original ends of the column sections. You do understand that the columns were made of up lots of small sections bolted and lightly welded together, and that in the collapse the vast majority of failures were the bolts and welds between sections, right?

GlennB · 5th August 2008, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it?

Perhaps their welds and bolts were snapped off during collapse and not cut at all? You know, they're just kind of "lying around".

Have you ever viewed that absolutely *massive* overhead photo of GZ? The hi-res one that runs to about 5gb ? It's full of thousands of steel members that have simply snapped their connections.

Disbelief · 5th August 2008, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

thx for your attempt :=)

bye bye

You leaving? If they weren't broken like others have stated, they were cut with torches and plasma cutters.

ETA: So Cheney, what do YOU think was done to those columns?

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by phunk

Simple, the ones with clean square ends weren't cut in the cleanup, those were the original ends of the column sections. You do understand that the columns were made of up lots of small sections bolted and lightly welded together, and that in the collapse the vast majority of failures were the bolts and welds between sections, right?

as far i can see is the base plate missing. and i would say the column looks still to good that it was ripped off.

deep · 5th August 2008, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Here, I will answer your question. They were cut with torches and plasma cutters.

You have no evidence that the column in that picture was cut with a torch or plasma cutter.

there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.
from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it.
the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen.
the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot.

None of what I've mentioned eliminates the possibility that the beam was cut with a torch or plasma cutter, but it does reinforce the need for you to provide proof for your claim.

Based on all the information I've seen- right now, the verdict on this particular beam is "we don't know what severed it".

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Perhaps their welds and bolts were snapped off during collapse and not cut at all? You know, they're just kind of "lying around".

Have you ever viewed that absolutely *massive* overhead photo of GZ? The hi-res one that runs to about 5gb ? It's full of thousands of steel members that have simply snapped their connections.

sure i know that pic, and also others.

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by deep44

You have no evidence that the column in that picture was cut with a torch or plasma cutter.

there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.
from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it.
the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen.
the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot.

None of what I've mentioned eliminates the possibility that the beam was cut with a torch or plasma cutter, but it does reinforce the need for you to provide proof for you claim.

Based on all the information I've seen- right now, the verdict on this particular beam is "we don't know what severed it".

[*]there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.
Cheney would say... So?
[*]from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it.

well thats what i thought 2, but the welders told me, when you cut it straight, you need a crane so its not falling down on ppl.
when you cant reach it with a crane, you cut it like a tree, also the reason we see a realitvely huge amount of molten material.after it fell to the side they wanted it, they cutted the last side from the "inside".
[*]the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen.

true , would like to see the other side.
[*]the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot.

i think the rescueworkers didnt mind, they wanted to save lives. i bet they found a way

we don't know what severed it, thats what i think about the other cuts

Disbelief · 5th August 2008, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by deep44

You have no evidence that the column in that picture was cut with a torch or plasma cutter.

[*]there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture.

Yet there are pictures with workers making the same cuts.

Quote:

[*]from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it.

You understand incorrectly. They would be cut at an angle to control how it would come apart and to move it easier.

Quote:

[*]the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen.

Why would they keep it around during cleanup or safety operations?

Quote:

[*]the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot.

Ever hear of a cherry picker? Of course, you have been provided pics in other threads of just that.

Quote:

None of what I've mentioned eliminates the possibility that the beam was cut with a torch or plasma cutter, but it does reinforce the need for you to provide proof for you claim.

Why trot out proof that I know you have seen? You will just dismiss it again.

Quote:

Based on all the information I've seen- right now, the verdict on this particular beam is "we don't know what severed it".

We do know what severed the column, you just don't believe it since it ruins your fantasy. Go spend some time with a demo crew.

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Yet there are pictures with workers making the same cuts.

You understand incorrectly. They would be cut at an angle to control how it would come apart and to move it easier.

Why would they keep it around during cleanup or safety operations?

Ever hear of a cherry picker? Of course, you have been provided pics in other threads of just that.

Why trot out proof that I know you have seen? You will just dismiss it again.

We do know what severed the column, you just don't believe it since it ruins your fantasy. Go spend some time with a demo crew.

you THINK you know, but a real critical thinker never knows for sure

but there are no critical thinkers on JREF, i know

Myriad · 5th August 2008, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

thx, but i have some troubles with it. the shape of the "broken off" columns. i would not expect them to have that good shape after a brake at the weldings.

It appears that the collapsing buildings did not care about your expectations about what their broken pieces should look like.

Respectfully,
Myriad

16.5 · 5th August 2008, 08:36 AM

Ugh, not this again.

Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo.

Cripes.

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

It appears that the collapsing buildings did not care about your expectations about what their broken pieces should look like.

Respectfully,
Myriad

oh sad, you started so well, but ended up with that post? tztztz

how do you ripp of the base plate of such a column in a downward collapse without bending the column? thats my point.

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by 16.5

Ugh, not this again.

Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo.

Cripes.

its on the internet, you can find it if you are interested.

16.5 · 5th August 2008, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

its on the internet, you can find it if you are interested.

Yes, I guess it is.

And given the fact that you have intentionally refused to post it, it would appear that this thread is worthless.

Don't you agree?

Drudgewire · 5th August 2008, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by 16.5

Ugh, not this again.

Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo.

Cripes.

And show things the way they really are instead of providing something out of context to fraudulently promote a lie? Is this your first experience with a twoofer?

phunk · 5th August 2008, 08:47 AM

Well, does anyone have details of how the base plate was attached? I suspect that it took less force to rip off the plate than to bend the column, given the numerous examples of it happening...

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:49 AM

weill pls do link to the uncropped version, i dont have a link ready, and didnt find it on google yet, im sure you can see even better what i ment on the other pictures.

deep · 5th August 2008, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Yet there are pictures with workers making the same cuts.

This is an example of weak induction - "there are pictures of workers cutting other beams, therefore all severed beams were cut by workers."

Originally Posted by Disbelief

You understand incorrectly. They would be cut at an angle to control how it would come apart and to move it easier.

Source, please?

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Why would they keep it around during cleanup or safety operations?

I don't know, and I don't care. If the beam was present in the picture, it could potentially support your argument. I was noting that it was not there, so it can provide no such support.

Originally Posted by Disbelief

Why trot out proof that I know you have seen? You will just dismiss it again.(...) We do know what severed the column, you just don't believe it since it ruins your fantasy. Go spend some time with a demo crew.

You won't "trot out proof" because you don't have any proof. The only reason you "know" is because you're apparently not aware that your argument is invalid. Either that, or you simply don't care.

There is not enough evidence to say how this beam was cut, one way or the other.

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by phunk

Well, does anyone have details of how the base plate was attached? I suspect that it took less force to rip off the plate than to bend the column, given the numerous examples of it happening...

it was welded afaik, and the problem is not the force, but the direction.
how do you turn of your shoes while you are standing and without "bending" your leg?

X · 5th August 2008, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

you THINK you know, but a real critical thinker never knows for sure

How do you know?

The picture linked to below has been posted here before.
As such, I'm not going to bother loading it onto photobucket.
It shows some vertical columns being cut in the same way the one in the OP was cut.
http://layscience.net/files/wtc/9.jpg

mrbaracuda · 5th August 2008, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by 16.5

Ugh, not this again.

Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo.

Cripes.

Do you doubt the high quality reporting of indymedia? You know, like this gem.

Myriad · 5th August 2008, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

oh sad, you started so well, but ended up with that post? tztztz

how do you ripp of the base plate of such a column in a downward collapse without bending the column? thats my point.

And my point is, your expectations of how the broken pieces should look are utterly irrelevant. It's a pretty important point, in current context, as your expectations appear to be the entire basis for your argument.

Engineers have calculated that in most cases the welds would break before the columns reached their elastic limit. I'm not qualified to repeat their calculations, but why should I doubt them, on the basis of your expectations backed up with no calculations or relevant experience at all?

And for that matter, how do you know the broken-off column is not bent?

Respectfully,
Myriad

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by [X]

How do you know?

The picture linked to below has been posted here before.
As such, I'm not going to bother loading it onto photobucket.
It shows some vertical columns being cut in the same way the one in the OP was cut.
http://layscience.net/files/wtc/9.jpg

i was actually pointing to the cuts that didnt look like that famous one

the one you present will most prolly end up like the famous one. cut in an angle with the once molten material around it.

DC · 5th August 2008, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

And my point is, your expectations of how the broken pieces should look are utterly irrelevant. It's a pretty important point, in current context, as your expectations appear to be the entire basis for your argument.

Engineers have calculated that in most cases the welds would break before the columns reached their elastic limit. I'm not qualified to repeat their calculations, but why should I doubt them, on the basis of your expectations backed up with no calculations or relevant experience at all?

And for that matter, how do you know the broken-off column is not bent?

Respectfully,
Myriad

the column to the right of the rescue worker in the middle, not bend, straight cut, no molten material around it.

how was that cut? broken in collapse?

DC · 5th August 2008, 09:00 AM

why do those cuts look so diffrent?

X · 5th August 2008, 09:07 AM

It doesn't look cut.

It looks like the end of a column, where another column would have been attached.

The exception is the one on the extreme right.
It's out of focus and slightly obscured, so I can't make any call on it between not cut/torch cut.

chillzero · 5th August 2008, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney

why do those cuts look so diffrent?

Do you have photos of them from the other side? You know, the side where the majority of any 'cut' surface is revealed?

5th August 2008, 07:52 AM	#1
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	How did they cut those? we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it. some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters. fine and well. but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it? you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it. what do you think?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it Last edited by DC; 5th August 2008 at 07:53 AM.

5th August 2008, 07:54 AM	#3
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney http://media.portland.indymedia.org/.../07/343154.jpg we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it. some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters. fine and well. but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it? you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it. what do you think? Why ask when you won't believe the answers? All you will do is try to spin this into something "proving" inside job.
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	__________________ Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same? Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman

5th August 2008, 07:58 AM	#5
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by Disbelief Why ask when you won't believe the answers? All you will do is try to spin this into something "proving" inside job. then best dont post in here thx and bye bye
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:02 AM	#8
twinstead Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Big corner office in NWO Towers Posts: 11,577	So it appears they rushed in there and started cutting columns with torches so the columns cut with thermite would blend in. BRILLIANT!
	__________________ You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison

5th August 2008, 08:05 AM	#9
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney then best dont post in here thx and bye bye Here, I will answer your question. They were cut with torches and plasma cutters.
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	__________________ Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same? Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman

5th August 2008, 07:59 AM	#6
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,106	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney cuts in an angle with molten material around it, and the other cuts? I've posted enough information for rational people. The liars that make up the truth movement will never be convinced.

5th August 2008, 08:00 AM	#7
~enigma~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Center of the universe Posts: 7,954	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney http://media.portland.indymedia.org/.../07/343154.jpg we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it. some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters. fine and well. but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it? you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it. what do you think? You mean the black slag in the picture is molten metal? Looks solid to me and I am sure others will agree. Maybe the slag was molten at one time but why do you think it is in the picture?

5th August 2008, 08:14 AM	#10
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,203	Most of the column segments in the towers were broken off at the welds by the destructive forces of the collapse. That is the likely cause of any observed column ends that are square and show no sign of torch cutting. Respectfully, Myriad
	__________________ The cosmos is a vast Loom, with time the warp and space the weft. We are all fruit of the Loom, unaware.

5th August 2008, 08:15 AM	#11
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by ~enigma~ You mean the black slag in the picture is molten metal? Looks solid to me and I am sure others will agree. Maybe the slag was molten at one time but why do you think it is in the picture? mmhhh?? i sure dont think it is still molten, im sure it was molten , but at the time they took the picture, it was prolly not even warm enymore :/ actually i tend to belive the famouse middle cut, was indeed made with a plasma cutter. this is what 6 of my welders confirmed. but then one pointed out the other cuts, they look pretty clean, he asked how they cut that, i told him i dunno they talked about it, and came to the conclusion that it does not look like plasma cut. so i wonder how they made those cuts.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:18 AM	#12
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by Myriad Most of the column segments in the towers were broken off at the welds by the destructive forces of the collapse. That is the likely cause of any observed column ends that are square and show no sign of torch cutting. Respectfully, Myriad thx, but i have some troubles with it. the shape of the "broken off" columns. i would not expect them to have that good shape after a brake at the weldings.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:19 AM	#13
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by Disbelief Here, I will answer your question. They were cut with torches and plasma cutters. thx for your attempt :=) bye bye
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:19 AM	#14
phunk Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,913	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney http://media.portland.indymedia.org/.../07/343154.jpg we all know the famous picture of that cut in the middle, the one in an angle with the molten material around it. some say thats thermite, some say thats cut with oxylances or plasmacutters. fine and well. but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it? you also can find cuts in an angle but without molten material around it. what do you think? Simple, the ones with clean square ends weren't cut in the cleanup, those were the original ends of the column sections. You do understand that the columns were made of up lots of small sections bolted and lightly welded together, and that in the collapse the vast majority of failures were the bolts and welds between sections, right?
phunk Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,913

5th August 2008, 08:20 AM	#15
GlennB Jellied eel and offal fancier Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 8,957	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney but how was the others cut, those without an angle and without the molten material around it? Perhaps their welds and bolts were snapped off during collapse and not cut at all? You know, they're just kind of "lying around". Have you ever viewed that absolutely massive overhead photo of GZ? The hi-res one that runs to about 5gb ? It's full of thousands of steel members that have simply snapped their connections.

5th August 2008, 08:21 AM	#16
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney thx for your attempt :=) bye bye You leaving? If they weren't broken like others have stated, they were cut with torches and plasma cutters. ETA: So Cheney, what do *YOU* think was done to those columns?
Disbelief Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,272	__________________ Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same? Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman Last edited by Disbelief; 5th August 2008 at 08:23 AM.

5th August 2008, 08:22 AM	#17
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by phunk Simple, the ones with clean square ends weren't cut in the cleanup, those were the original ends of the column sections. You do understand that the columns were made of up lots of small sections bolted and lightly welded together, and that in the collapse the vast majority of failures were the bolts and welds between sections, right? as far i can see is the base plate missing. and i would say the column looks still to good that it was ripped off.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:22 AM	#18
deep Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,367	Originally Posted by Disbelief Here, I will answer your question. They were cut with torches and plasma cutters. You have no evidence that the column in that picture was cut with a torch or plasma cutter. there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture. from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it. the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen. the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot. None of what I've mentioned eliminates the possibility that the beam was cut with a torch or plasma cutter, but it does reinforce the need for you to provide proof for your claim. Based on all the information I've seen- right now, the verdict on this particular beam is "we don't know what severed it".
deep Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,367	Last edited by deep; 5th August 2008 at 08:26 AM. Reason: Correcting a beachnut..

5th August 2008, 08:23 AM	#19
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by GlennB Perhaps their welds and bolts were snapped off during collapse and not cut at all? You know, they're just kind of "lying around". Have you ever viewed that absolutely massive overhead photo of GZ? The hi-res one that runs to about 5gb ? It's full of thousands of steel members that have simply snapped their connections. sure i know that pic, and also others.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:29 AM	#20
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by deep44 You have no evidence that the column in that picture was cut with a torch or plasma cutter. there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture. from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it. the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen. the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot. None of what I've mentioned eliminates the possibility that the beam was cut with a torch or plasma cutter, but it does reinforce the need for you to provide proof for you claim. Based on all the information I've seen- right now, the verdict on this particular beam is "we don't know what severed it". []there are no workers with torches or plasma cutters present in the picture. Cheney would say... So? []from what I understand, cuts with torches or plasma cutters are made straight across in a scenario like that, to keep the beam from slipping off while they're cutting it. well thats what i thought 2, but the welders told me, when you cut it straight, you need a crane so its not falling down on ppl. when you cant reach it with a crane, you cut it like a tree, also the reason we see a realitvely huge amount of molten material.after it fell to the side they wanted it, they cutted the last side from the "inside". []the piece that you allege they cut off is nowhere to be seen. true , would like to see the other side. []the beam is not easily accessible - the area surrounding it does not appear to be accessible on foot. i think the rescueworkers didnt mind, they wanted to save lives. i bet they found a way we don't know what severed it, thats what i think about the other cuts
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:32 AM	#22
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by Disbelief Yet there are pictures with workers making the same cuts. You understand incorrectly. They would be cut at an angle to control how it would come apart and to move it easier. Why would they keep it around during cleanup or safety operations? Ever hear of a cherry picker? Of course, you have been provided pics in other threads of just that. Why trot out proof that I know you have seen? You will just dismiss it again. We do know what severed the column, you just don't believe it since it ruins your fantasy. Go spend some time with a demo crew. you THINK you know, but a real critical thinker never knows for sure but there are no critical thinkers on JREF, i know
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:34 AM	#23
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,203	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney thx, but i have some troubles with it. the shape of the "broken off" columns. i would not expect them to have that good shape after a brake at the weldings. It appears that the collapsing buildings did not care about your expectations about what their broken pieces should look like. Respectfully, Myriad
	__________________ The cosmos is a vast Loom, with time the warp and space the weft. We are all fruit of the Loom, unaware.

5th August 2008, 08:36 AM	#24
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,793	Ugh, not this again. Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo. Cripes.
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,793

5th August 2008, 08:37 AM	#25
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by Myriad It appears that the collapsing buildings did not care about your expectations about what their broken pieces should look like. Respectfully, Myriad oh sad, you started so well, but ended up with that post? tztztz how do you ripp of the base plate of such a column in a downward collapse without bending the column? thats my point.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:38 AM	#26
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by 16.5 Ugh, not this again. Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo. Cripes. its on the internet, you can find it if you are interested.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:45 AM	#27
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,793	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney its on the internet, you can find it if you are interested. Yes, I guess it is. And given the fact that you have intentionally refused to post it, it would appear that this thread is worthless. Don't you agree?
16.5 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,793

5th August 2008, 08:45 AM	#28
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Originally Posted by 16.5 Ugh, not this again. Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo. Cripes. And show things the way they really are instead of providing something out of context to fraudulently promote a lie? Is this your first experience with a twoofer?
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

5th August 2008, 08:47 AM	#29
phunk Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,913	Well, does anyone have details of how the base plate was attached? I suspect that it took less force to rip off the plate than to bend the column, given the numerous examples of it happening...
phunk Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,913

5th August 2008, 08:49 AM	#30
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	weill pls do link to the uncropped version, i dont have a link ready, and didnt find it on google yet, im sure you can see even better what i ment on the other pictures.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:50 AM	#31
deep Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,367	Originally Posted by Disbelief Yet there are pictures with workers making the same cuts. This is an example of weak induction - "there are pictures of workers cutting other beams, therefore all severed beams were cut by workers." Originally Posted by Disbelief You understand incorrectly. They would be cut at an angle to control how it would come apart and to move it easier. Source, please? Originally Posted by Disbelief Why would they keep it around during cleanup or safety operations? I don't know, and I don't care. If the beam was present in the picture, it could potentially support your argument. I was noting that it was not there, so it can provide no such support. Originally Posted by Disbelief Why trot out proof that I know you have seen? You will just dismiss it again.(...) We do know what severed the column, you just don't believe it since it ruins your fantasy. Go spend some time with a demo crew. You won't "trot out proof" because you don't have any proof. The only reason you "know" is because you're apparently not aware that your argument is invalid. Either that, or you simply don't care. There is not enough evidence to say how this beam was cut, one way or the other.
deep Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,367

5th August 2008, 08:50 AM	#32
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by phunk Well, does anyone have details of how the base plate was attached? I suspect that it took less force to rip off the plate than to bend the column, given the numerous examples of it happening... it was welded afaik, and the problem is not the force, but the direction. how do you turn of your shoes while you are standing and without "bending" your leg?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:51 AM	#33
X Slide Rulez 4 Life Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Launching the army, waiting for Hok to commit her forces (then the moles strike...) Posts: 4,082	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney you THINK you know, but a real critical thinker never knows for sure How do you know? The picture linked to below has been posted here before. As such, I'm not going to bother loading it onto photobucket. It shows some vertical columns being cut in the same way the one in the OP was cut. http://layscience.net/files/wtc/9.jpg
	__________________ It is sad that this is necessary: Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly." Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly." [X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis

5th August 2008, 08:52 AM	#34
mrbaracuda Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 3,799	Originally Posted by 16.5 Ugh, not this again. Hey DC, at least do us a favor and post the entire uncropped photo. Cripes. Do you doubt the high quality reporting of indymedia? You know, like this gem.

5th August 2008, 08:53 AM	#35
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,203	Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney oh sad, you started so well, but ended up with that post? tztztz how do you ripp of the base plate of such a column in a downward collapse without bending the column? thats my point. And my point is, your expectations of how the broken pieces should look are utterly irrelevant. It's a pretty important point, in current context, as your expectations appear to be the entire basis for your argument. Engineers have calculated that in most cases the welds would break before the columns reached their elastic limit. I'm not qualified to repeat their calculations, but why should I doubt them, on the basis of your expectations backed up with no calculations or relevant experience at all? And for that matter, how do you know the broken-off column is not bent? Respectfully, Myriad
	__________________ The cosmos is a vast Loom, with time the warp and space the weft. We are all fruit of the Loom, unaware.

5th August 2008, 08:54 AM	#36
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by [X] How do you know? The picture linked to below has been posted here before. As such, I'm not going to bother loading it onto photobucket. It shows some vertical columns being cut in the same way the one in the OP was cut. http://layscience.net/files/wtc/9.jpg i was actually pointing to the cuts that didnt look like that famous one the one you present will most prolly end up like the famous one. cut in an angle with the once molten material around it.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 08:59 AM	#37
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by Myriad And my point is, your expectations of how the broken pieces should look are utterly irrelevant. It's a pretty important point, in current context, as your expectations appear to be the entire basis for your argument. Engineers have calculated that in most cases the welds would break before the columns reached their elastic limit. I'm not qualified to repeat their calculations, but why should I doubt them, on the basis of your expectations backed up with no calculations or relevant experience at all? And for that matter, how do you know the broken-off column is not bent? Respectfully, Myriad the column to the right of the rescue worker in the middle, not bend, straight cut, no molten material around it. how was that cut? broken in collapse?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

5th August 2008, 09:00 AM	#38
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	why do those cuts look so diffrent?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it