NRA accused of spying.

Ranb · 5th August 2008, 09:44 PM

It seems the NRA may have had a female spy working for a group called the States United to Prevent Gun Violence. http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/05/nra.mole.ap/index.html

She infiltrated an animal-rights group in the late 1980s.....McFate resurfaced in Pennsylvania and has since spent years as an unpaid board member of CeaseFirePA and an organization called States United to Prevent Gun Violence. She also twice pushed unsuccessfully to join the board of the nation's largest gun-control group, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

Under some circumstances, it could be trespass," said Laurie Levenson, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, California, and a former prosecutor. But "if they're open meetings, it may be underhanded and sneaky; it may not be illegal.

Ranb

RandFan · 5th August 2008, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ranb

It seems the NRA may have had a female spy working for a group called the States United to Prevent Gun Violence. http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/05/nra.mole.ap/index.html

She infiltrated an animal-rights group in the late 1980s.....McFate resurfaced in Pennsylvania and has since spent years as an unpaid board member of CeaseFirePA and an organization called States United to Prevent Gun Violence. She also twice pushed unsuccessfully to join the board of the nation's largest gun-control group, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

Under some circumstances, it could be trespass," said Laurie Levenson, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, California, and a former prosecutor. But "if they're open meetings, it may be underhanded and sneaky; it may not be illegal.

Ranb

I think that this isn't unprecedented. I think there are/were some civil rights groups outside of law enforcement that infiltrated the Klan and others of their ilk. I could be wrong, I'm too tired to Google at the moment.

Texas · 5th August 2008, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

I think that this isn't unprecedented. I think there are/were some civil rights groups outside of law enforcement that infiltrated the Klan and others of their ilk. I could be wrong, I'm too tired to Google at the moment.

I don't know about civil rights workers but legend has it that the FBI infiltrated the Klan to such an extent that the agents eventually made up the majority of members.

TragicMonkey · 6th August 2008, 01:44 AM

I find it difficult to imagine anybody caring that much about a single issue. All that effort! And for what?

Ranb · 6th August 2008, 01:34 PM

Possibly so that mere gun possession by an otherwise law abiding person does not result in a prison sentence?

Gurdur · 6th August 2008, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ranb

Possibly so that mere gun possession by an otherwise law abiding person does not result in a prison sentence?

This doesn't make sense.

Drudgewire · 6th August 2008, 01:44 PM

It's a two-way street. Anti-gun activists go to gun shows and try and to goad dealers into making illegal sales so they can report on them. These are organized efforts.

I can't blame the NRA for wanting to use covert methods to see what kind of covert methods are being planned against the gun industry.

Darth Rotor · 6th August 2008, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

It's a two-way street. Anti-gun activists go to gun shows and try and to goad dealers into making illegal sales so they can report on them. These are organized efforts.

If a law enforcement team does that, I think it's called entrapment. Is it legal for private citizens to conduct this sort of op?

Quote:

I can't blame the NRA for wanting to use covert methods to see what kind of covert methods are being planned against the gun industry.

Spy vs spy for fifty, Alex.

DR

Drudgewire · 6th August 2008, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

If a law enforcement team does that, I think it's called entrapment. Is it legal for private citizens to conduct this sort of op?

Of course it is. They don't have the power to arrest anyone. It's like asking if twoofers joining this forum and pretending to be a skeptic by saying they're asking these questions to debate conspiracy theorists is illegal.

To be perfectly honest, I'm happy to see my membership dues going to something this productive.

GreNME · 6th August 2008, 02:38 PM

I'm not sure that doing what would otherwise be considered entrapment by police is necessarily legal. Goading a gun dealer to bypass the law very well could be illegal, depending on the circumstances.

Drudgewire · 6th August 2008, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

I'm not sure that doing what would otherwise be considered entrapment by police is necessarily legal. Goading a gun dealer to bypass the law very well could be illegal, depending on the circumstances.

Entrap them for doing what? There's nothing to suggest she tried to entice them to commit illegal acts. It's simply watching.

This isn't even at the same level of what watchdog groups like Perverted Justice do, which is to place themselves in a situation where sexual predators do their hunting but not instigate the chat. However, once chat is instigated they take on a completely phony persona and let the guy dig his own grave.

Yes, law enforcement is now involved but when they started out they did it for no other reason than to post the chats online and humiliate the scumbag... and it's perfectly legal.

Drudgewire · 6th August 2008, 02:56 PM

Or were you just talking about attempting to make a straw purchase as an activist entrapment? It's still not going to be illegal as long as they could buy the gun legally and didn't actually turn around and sell it to someone. They'd simply be buying one to show the dealer didn't take the requisite steps to block a sale that was clearly for a third party.

GreNME · 6th August 2008, 03:35 PM

I'm saying that some anti-gun activist going to a gun show and trying to trap a seller by making an illegal purchase would still be engaging in an illegal purchase to find out if they could.

Otherwise I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Drudgewire · 6th August 2008, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

I'm saying that some anti-gun activist going to a gun show and trying to trap a seller by making an illegal purchase would still be engaging in an illegal purchase to find out if they could.

Otherwise I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Boy would an activist who couldn't legally buy a gun be stupid to try that.

For the most part they're going to be legally able to purchase one, but they try to record themselves making a joke about selling it for a profit and if they're real bold they might even make an off-handed comment about how it's for a friend with a few legal troubles.

Of course pretty much all gun dealers have been wise to this for awhile so it never works anymore.

Ranb · 6th August 2008, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Gurdur

This doesn't make sense.

Can you be more specific?

Ranb

maxfrost · 6th August 2008, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Texas

I don't know about civil rights workers but legend has it that the FBI infiltrated the Klan to such an extent that the agents eventually made up the majority of members.

Heard the same thing, only it was the Communist Party in the U.S. that was infiltrated.

Old joke: How do you know if a comrade is an FBI agent? Answer: He's the one who pays his dues.

Ranb · 6th August 2008, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

If a law enforcement team does that, I think it's called entrapment. Is it legal for private citizens to conduct this sort of op?.....

It can be illegal. For example, I go to a gun show and buy a Thompson Center carbine, but I don't want the 23" inch barrel on it, but the 14 inch barrel instead. I pay the seller an extra $50 to attach the 14" barrel and I walk away with it. The seller just made a short barreled rifle. Unless he had the rifle registered on an ATF form 1, 2 or 4, he broke the law. Unless the buyer had an approved ATF form 4 (or is a licensed dealer and got it on a form 3), then he is possession of an illegal weapon.

Another example is buying a handgun from a dealer without the NICS check. This gets the seller in hot water too.

Ranb

GreNME · 6th August 2008, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

Boy would an activist who couldn't legally buy a gun be stupid to try that.

That was my thought too while trying to come up with a scenario. Though it would be a good way to catch both a lawbreaking dealer and an annoying lawbreaking activist at the same time. Clears the field for normal people.

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

For the most part they're going to be legally able to purchase one, but they try to record themselves making a joke about selling it for a profit and if they're real bold they might even make an off-handed comment about how it's for a friend with a few legal troubles.

Of course pretty much all gun dealers have been wise to this for awhile so it never works anymore.

People have seriously done this? Holy macaroni, I'm pretty firm in the "not fond of guns" department, but the thought that people would do such things boggles my mind. Wait, scratch that: the thought of it isn't boggling, it's the follow-through to actually go through with such stupidity.

Jeez, I may not like guns^*, but enough of my family and friends are owners that I'm reasonably certain owning one doesn't turn someone into a monster.

_{* Though, as I think you mentioned in another thread, they can be fun for shooting at targets.}

Drudgewire · 7th August 2008, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

People have seriously done this? Holy macaroni, I'm pretty firm in the "not fond of guns" department, but the thought that people would do such things boggles my mind. Wait, scratch that: the thought of it isn't boggling, it's the follow-through to actually go through with such stupidity.

Oh yeah, there was a big one a couple of years back that pretty much every gun forum in the world jumped all over. Someone who clearly had never been to a gun show and assumed the normal laws didn't apply there. Serious egg on his face at the end of the day (wish I could remember the guy's name so I could google the story.)

Ranb · 7th August 2008, 04:21 PM

Was it John Rosenthal?

http://www.goal.org/news/Archive/rosenthalcrimine.htm
http://www.readitnews.com/content/view/568/32

Ranb

5th August 2008, 09:44 PM	#1
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,116	NRA accused of spying. It seems the NRA may have had a female spy working for a group called the States United to Prevent Gun Violence. http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/05/nra.mole.ap/index.html She infiltrated an animal-rights group in the late 1980s.....McFate resurfaced in Pennsylvania and has since spent years as an unpaid board member of CeaseFirePA and an organization called States United to Prevent Gun Violence. She also twice pushed unsuccessfully to join the board of the nation's largest gun-control group, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Under some circumstances, it could be trespass," said Laurie Levenson, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, California, and a former prosecutor. But "if they're open meetings, it may be underhanded and sneaky; it may not be illegal. Ranb

5th August 2008, 09:52 PM	#2
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,417	Originally Posted by Ranb It seems the NRA may have had a female spy working for a group called the States United to Prevent Gun Violence. http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/05/nra.mole.ap/index.html She infiltrated an animal-rights group in the late 1980s.....McFate resurfaced in Pennsylvania and has since spent years as an unpaid board member of CeaseFirePA and an organization called States United to Prevent Gun Violence. She also twice pushed unsuccessfully to join the board of the nation's largest gun-control group, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. Under some circumstances, it could be trespass," said Laurie Levenson, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, California, and a former prosecutor. But "if they're open meetings, it may be underhanded and sneaky; it may not be illegal. Ranb I think that this isn't unprecedented. I think there are/were some civil rights groups outside of law enforcement that infiltrated the Klan and others of their ilk. I could be wrong, I'm too tired to Google at the moment.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

5th August 2008, 10:14 PM	#3
Texas Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,847	Originally Posted by RandFan I think that this isn't unprecedented. I think there are/were some civil rights groups outside of law enforcement that infiltrated the Klan and others of their ilk. I could be wrong, I'm too tired to Google at the moment. I don't know about civil rights workers but legend has it that the FBI infiltrated the Klan to such an extent that the agents eventually made up the majority of members.
Texas Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,847

6th August 2008, 01:44 AM	#4
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,114	I find it difficult to imagine anybody caring that much about a single issue. All that effort! And for what?
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

6th August 2008, 01:38 PM	#6
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875	Originally Posted by Ranb Possibly so that mere gun possession by an otherwise law abiding person does not result in a prison sentence? This doesn't make sense.
Gurdur Person Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,875

6th August 2008, 01:34 PM	#5
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,116	Possibly so that mere gun possession by an otherwise law abiding person does not result in a prison sentence?

6th August 2008, 01:44 PM	#7
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	It's a two-way street. Anti-gun activists go to gun shows and try and to goad dealers into making illegal sales so they can report on them. These are organized efforts. I can't blame the NRA for wanting to use covert methods to see what kind of covert methods are being planned against the gun industry.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

6th August 2008, 02:25 PM	#8
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by Drudgewire It's a two-way street. Anti-gun activists go to gun shows and try and to goad dealers into making illegal sales so they can report on them. These are organized efforts. If a law enforcement team does that, I think it's called entrapment. Is it legal for private citizens to conduct this sort of op? Quote: I can't blame the NRA for wanting to use covert methods to see what kind of covert methods are being planned against the gun industry. Spy vs spy for fifty, Alex. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

6th August 2008, 02:30 PM	#9
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor If a law enforcement team does that, I think it's called entrapment. Is it legal for private citizens to conduct this sort of op? Of course it is. They don't have the power to arrest anyone. It's like asking if twoofers joining this forum and pretending to be a skeptic by saying they're asking these questions to debate conspiracy theorists is illegal. To be perfectly honest, I'm happy to see my membership dues going to something this productive.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

6th August 2008, 02:38 PM	#10
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	I'm not sure that doing what would otherwise be considered entrapment by police is necessarily legal. Goading a gun dealer to bypass the law very well could be illegal, depending on the circumstances.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

6th August 2008, 02:46 PM	#11
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Originally Posted by GreNME I'm not sure that doing what would otherwise be considered entrapment by police is necessarily legal. Goading a gun dealer to bypass the law very well could be illegal, depending on the circumstances. Entrap them for doing what? There's nothing to suggest she tried to entice them to commit illegal acts. It's simply watching. This isn't even at the same level of what watchdog groups like Perverted Justice do, which is to place themselves in a situation where sexual predators do their hunting but not instigate the chat. However, once chat is instigated they take on a completely phony persona and let the guy dig his own grave. Yes, law enforcement is now involved but when they started out they did it for no other reason than to post the chats online and humiliate the scumbag... and it's perfectly legal.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet Last edited by Drudgewire; 6th August 2008 at 02:47 PM.

6th August 2008, 02:56 PM	#12
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Or were you just talking about attempting to make a straw purchase as an activist entrapment? It's still not going to be illegal as long as they could buy the gun legally and didn't actually turn around and sell it to someone. They'd simply be buying one to show the dealer didn't take the requisite steps to block a sale that was clearly for a third party.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

6th August 2008, 03:35 PM	#13
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	I'm saying that some anti-gun activist going to a gun show and trying to trap a seller by making an illegal purchase would still be engaging in an illegal purchase to find out if they could. Otherwise I'm not sure what you're getting at.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

6th August 2008, 04:37 PM	#14
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Originally Posted by GreNME I'm saying that some anti-gun activist going to a gun show and trying to trap a seller by making an illegal purchase would still be engaging in an illegal purchase to find out if they could. Otherwise I'm not sure what you're getting at. Boy would an activist who couldn't legally buy a gun be stupid to try that. For the most part they're going to be legally able to purchase one, but they try to record themselves making a joke about selling it for a profit and if they're real bold they might even make an off-handed comment about how it's for a friend with a few legal troubles. Of course pretty much all gun dealers have been wise to this for awhile so it never works anymore.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

6th August 2008, 05:06 PM	#15
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,116	Originally Posted by Gurdur This doesn't make sense. Can you be more specific? Ranb

6th August 2008, 05:10 PM	#16
maxfrost Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 199	Originally Posted by Texas I don't know about civil rights workers but legend has it that the FBI infiltrated the Klan to such an extent that the agents eventually made up the majority of members. Heard the same thing, only it was the Communist Party in the U.S. that was infiltrated. Old joke: How do you know if a comrade is an FBI agent? Answer: He's the one who pays his dues.
maxfrost Thinker Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 199

6th August 2008, 05:15 PM	#17
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,116	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor If a law enforcement team does that, I think it's called entrapment. Is it legal for private citizens to conduct this sort of op?..... It can be illegal. For example, I go to a gun show and buy a Thompson Center carbine, but I don't want the 23" inch barrel on it, but the 14 inch barrel instead. I pay the seller an extra $50 to attach the 14" barrel and I walk away with it. The seller just made a short barreled rifle. Unless he had the rifle registered on an ATF form 1, 2 or 4, he broke the law. Unless the buyer had an approved ATF form 4 (or is a licensed dealer and got it on a form 3), then he is possession of an illegal weapon. Another example is buying a handgun from a dealer without the NICS check. This gets the seller in hot water too. Ranb
	Last edited by Ranb; 6th August 2008 at 05:16 PM.

6th August 2008, 06:08 PM	#18
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by Drudgewire Boy would an activist who couldn't legally buy a gun be stupid to try that. That was my thought too while trying to come up with a scenario. Though it would be a good way to catch both a lawbreaking dealer and an annoying lawbreaking activist at the same time. Clears the field for normal people. Originally Posted by Drudgewire For the most part they're going to be legally able to purchase one, but they try to record themselves making a joke about selling it for a profit and if they're real bold they might even make an off-handed comment about how it's for a friend with a few legal troubles. Of course pretty much all gun dealers have been wise to this for awhile so it never works anymore. People have seriously done this? Holy macaroni, I'm pretty firm in the "not fond of guns" department, but the thought that people would do such things boggles my mind. Wait, scratch that: the thought of it isn't boggling, it's the follow-through to actually go through with such stupidity. Jeez, I may not like guns^, but enough of my family and friends are owners that I'm reasonably certain owning one doesn't turn someone into a monster. _{ Though, as I think you mentioned in another thread, they can be fun for shooting at targets.}
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

7th August 2008, 07:09 AM	#19
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	Originally Posted by GreNME People have seriously done this? Holy macaroni, I'm pretty firm in the "not fond of guns" department, but the thought that people would do such things boggles my mind. Wait, scratch that: the thought of it isn't boggling, it's the follow-through to actually go through with such stupidity. Oh yeah, there was a big one a couple of years back that pretty much every gun forum in the world jumped all over. Someone who clearly had never been to a gun show and assumed the normal laws didn't apply there. Serious egg on his face at the end of the day (wish I could remember the guy's name so I could google the story.)
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

7th August 2008, 04:21 PM	#20
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,116	Was it John Rosenthal? http://www.goal.org/news/Archive/rosenthalcrimine.htm http://www.readitnews.com/content/view/568/32 Ranb