Do Satanists believe in god?

beeksc1 · 14th August 2008, 12:01 AM

Aleister Crowley professed belief in a god. Karl Marx believed in god; and Marx opined that Friedrich Engels and himself (in German Ideology) were

Quote:

concerned with a highly interesting question: the decomposition of the Absolute Spirit.

Have heard that the devil (Lucifer, Beelzebub, etc.) is a character that only exists in Christian folklore. Is Satanism an ideology that comes from the Christian belief?

Do Satanists believe in a divine force?

Mark Felt · 14th August 2008, 12:07 AM

Theoretically, no, a belief in god isn't required for Satanism. From what I recall of the literature, Lucifer is revered as one who brought knowledge to the human race, I don't recall God being mentioned.

(I'm almost certainly wrong)

Marquis de Carabas · 14th August 2008, 12:11 AM

I would ask a Satanist.

From the self-described Satanists I have known (a sample size of three), the main idea seems to be that Christianity (and to some extent, other religions) have demonized the value of the self, and that Satan serves as the greatest symbol of this demonization. Two of these folks have claimed to be atheists and materialists, believing in no spiritual forces at all, merely in symbols. The other seemd to hold an essentially Christian-modeled worldview with the roles reversed. God was the bad guy. Satan was the liberator of mankind.

beeksc1 · 14th August 2008, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Felt

Theoretically, no, a belief in god isn't required for Satanism. From what I recall of the literature, Lucifer is revered as one who brought knowledge to the human race, I don't recall God being mentioned.
(I'm almost certainly wrong)

Conceptually, yes. A worship of Satan usually mandates the belief in a benevolent god. Of what I recollect from the evidence, God is the antithesis of the one who brings deception to humankind. I do remember Satan being referenced.

(I am mostly accurat...)

Marquis, the description of Satanism that characterizes the third person's perspective

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

The other seemd to hold an essentially Christian-modeled worldview with the roles reversed. God was the bad guy. Satan was the liberator of mankind.

is the argument that I find most compelling; but, as Satan (and Satanism) reverses the goodness that can be found in the human mind, it maybe challenging to buy.

Delvo · 14th August 2008, 05:50 AM

The only brand of "Satanism" that I'm familiar with doesn't seem to consider any supernatural entities to be real, not even Satan. They apparently use the name and symbolism just to annoy Christians. What they actually believe is all about human nature: that "bad" things are part of us just as well as "good" things are and we should be tuned in to them and understand them so that we're choosing which ones to act on in an honest and informed way rather than out of blind fear, denial, or self-subjugation.

Civilized Worm · 14th August 2008, 06:36 AM

Crowley wasn't a satanist and Marx didn't believe in god.

What Delvo said is pretty much correct, satanism in the sense of the Church of Satan is basically for atheists who enjoy the trappings of religion. Even Anton LaVey admitted that his church was "just Ayn Rand's philosophy with ceremony and ritual added". It's pretty silly.

Nosaj · 14th August 2008, 08:29 AM

beeksc1,

Originally Posted by beeksc1

Do Satanists believe in a divine force?

The answer is that it depends on the particular Satanist. For example, there are some Satanists who are materialists who believe this life is all there is, that there is no G_d, no Devil and no afterlife; therefore, there is ultimately no right and wrong, no post-mortem consequences of actions and pleasure is all that really matters because this is it. These type of Satanists are basically just using "Satan" as an arch-type for human nature or as an attention-getter, e.g., Anton LaVey made a very profitable atheistic religion centered around this belief.

The other kinds of Satanists, the ones who actually believe in Satan as an existent being, have many different beliefs that generally evolve from Christian theology. There are some who believe, for example, that Satan is actually the good guy, that G_d is not the true G_d or creator, but a lesser being who created the material world (as per Gnosticism). Yaweh is seen as a false god while Lucifer as the bringer of [the] light [of knowledge]. Then there are those who see Satan as the personification of forces such as chaos, evil, sensual desire, etc.

As a side note, an interesting example of an atypically positive view of Satan can found in the Yezidis' religion. The Yezidis essentially consider Melek Taus (i.e., Shaytan) to be a benevolent angel, often represented as a peacock, who, along with six other angels, is said to have been tested by G_d. However, as Melek Taus was the only angel to pass G_d's test by refusing to worship Adam and extinguishing the fires of Hell with his tears, G_d made Melek Taus the chief of all angels and the caretaker of creation (Information about the Yezidi Kurds).

Jason

leonAzul · 14th August 2008, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by beeksc1

Have heard that the devil (Lucifer, Beelzebub, etc.) is a character that only exists in Christian folklore. Is Satanism an ideology that comes from the Christian belief?

There is a great deal of confusion about the devil.

Textually, there is a reference to Lucifer (literally, the one who carries the light) who allowed worship of himself, thus falling due to unworthy pride [Isaias 14:12ff]. IMHO, the message there is that claiming credit for someone else's work is flat out wrong. "And so it's true, pride comes before a fall " -- I'm a loser (c) Lennon/McCartney

The rest is a whole lot of superstition with any number of epithets for the Evil One.

In short: Don't blame Christians for superstition. It's part and parcel of the human experience.

Huh-What? · 14th August 2008, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Elohim

beeksc1,

The answer is that it depends on the particular Satanist. For example, there are some Satanists who are materialists who believe this life is all there is, that there is no G_d, no Devil and no afterlife; therefore, there is ultimately no right and wrong, no post-mortem consequences of actions and pleasure is all that really matters because this is it. These type of Satanists are basically just using "Satan" as an arch-type for human nature or as an attention-getter, e.g., Anton LaVey made a very profitable atheistic religion centered around this belief.

The other kinds of Satanists, the ones who actually believe in Satan as an existent being, have many different beliefs that generally evolve from Christian theology. There are some who believe, for example, that Satan is actually the good guy, that G_d is not the true G_d or creator, but a lesser being who created the material world (as per Gnosticism). Yaweh is seen as a false god while Lucifer as the bringer of [the] light [of knowledge]. Then there are those who see Satan as the personification of forces such as chaos, evil, sensual desire, etc.

As a side note, an interesting example of an atypically positive view of Satan can found in the Yezidis' religion. The Yezidis essentially consider Melek Taus (i.e., Shaytan) to be a benevolent angel, often represented as a peacock, who, along with six other angels, is said to have been tested by G_d. However, as Melek Taus was the only angel to pass G_d's test by refusing to worship Adam and extinguishing the fires of Hell with his tears, G_d made Melek Taus the chief of all angels and the caretaker of creation (Information about the Yezidi Kurds).

Jason

Just curious. Why do you use G_d instead of God? I am sure there has been a discussion on this in another thread, but I don't see it.

plumjam · 14th August 2008, 11:26 AM

My auntie went on a few dates with Anton LaVey. It was never gonna work; all she ever did was crochet.

Nosaj · 14th August 2008, 01:33 PM

Huh-What?,

Originally Posted by Huh-What?

Just curious. Why do you use G_d instead of God? I am sure there has been a discussion on this in another thread, but I don't see it.

I use 'G_d' when referencing the deity of the three Abrahamic religions, mainly because Hebrew uses no vowels, and out of share habit.

Jason

Drudgewire · 14th August 2008, 01:38 PM

One of my oldest friends is a priest in the Church of Satan. Occasionally when we talk he'll mock me for "still believing in fairy tales" and I'll respond with "and you go through the same ritualistic nonsense christians do."

That's why I like the Norwegian black metal satanists. They had about as much use for LaVey as they did for the pope.

Nosaj · 14th August 2008, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Drudgewire

That's why I like the Norwegian black metal satanists.

\,,/

Nogbad · 14th August 2008, 03:31 PM

Satinism is OK if it is a 70s disco night though.

Robin · 14th August 2008, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Civilized Worm

Crowley wasn't a satanist...

Well that is an interesting question. Crowley believed that the devil had fooled Christians into worshipping him - that only the enemy of mankind would demand that mankind relinquish the proud upright position God had given them by kneeling.

So that appears to suggest that he believed the real God is the person the Christians refer to as Satan.

kmortis · 14th August 2008, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

Well that is an interesting question. Crowley believed that the devil had fooled Christians into worshipping him - that only the enemy of mankind would demand that mankind relinquish the proud upright position God had given them by kneeling.

So that appears to suggest that he believed the real God is the person the Christians refer to as Satan.

I would caution taking anything that Uncle Al said at face value. He was a notorious trickster who liked to pull pranks on his readers.

That being said, having read quite a bit of Crowley, I'd vote that he thought that he was god, and the rest were all posers.

Robin · 14th August 2008, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by kmortis

I would caution taking anything that Uncle Al said at face value. He was a notorious trickster who liked to pull pranks on his readers.

Absolutely, I have often mentioned in this forum that Crowley's tongue was lodged firmly in his cheek at most, if not all times.

Quote:

That being said, having read quite a bit of Crowley, I'd vote that he thought that he was god, and the rest were all posers.

I seem to remember that at one point he says "One day you will be speaking of the Sunset of Crowleyanity".

IgnorantGenius · 14th August 2008, 10:06 PM

Satanists do not believe in Satan or God.

Satan and God are characters in Christianity. Satanists hijack the image of Satan to simply make a rebellious point in the culture they live in.

Those who actually worship Satan as God's enemy are called Theistic Satanists.

Lab Rat · 15th August 2008, 06:54 AM

There was point of enquiry podcast where DJ Groethe interviewed Peter Gilmore who is the high priest of the church of satan. I'd post the link but this is my first post and I don't have that option yet.

They don't worship satan, they take satan from the hebrew to mean adversary. So they're adversaries of all faith based religions.

I got the impression that it was a theatrical, selfish form of atheism.
Selfish in the sense that they organise their lives to maximise they're happinees and pleasures, which we all do to some extent. I just think satanists are more upfront about it. They don't feel the need to live up to some ideal of goodness, unless of course that matters to the individual satanist.

CriticalThanking · 15th August 2008, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Elohim

I use 'G_d' when referencing the deity of the three Abrahamic religions, mainly because Hebrew uses no vowels, and out of share habit.

Jason

When I was young and undergoing Judaic ~~indoctrination~~ education, I was taught that it was poor form to use the deity's full name. That's why I never refer to Jesus Horatio Christ, just Jesus H. Christ.

In a similar vein, when saying the words of a prayer without really praying (showing off for goyim, etc), one should use the word "Adoshem" instead of "Adonai". I will not vouch for my accuracy in reporting someone else's dogma.

[derail]
Elohim - your nick reminds me of a run-in with a prosthelytizer back in college who tried to convince me that the old testament "proved" the xtian trinity because the word Elohim is a plural form.
[/derail].

CT

Axiom_Blade · 15th August 2008, 09:07 AM

I read The Satanic Bible when I was 17. It was pretty good, but it didn't really make me want to be a Satanist.

Basically, what it breaks down to is:
A) Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else (all that stuff about killing kittens and babies is just Christian propaganda). Satanists aren't pacifists, though...they will act in self-defense.
B) Hedonism. I think it went along the lines of "live life to the fullest, and that will make your soul strong enough to survive death".
C) Be "selfish" ala Ayn Rand's Objectivism. (Only help those that deserve it.)

So, it's essentially Objectivism with silly costumes and ritual. LaVey addresses this in the Satanic Bible, however, and argues that humanity needs the silly costumes and ritual because "that's just the way we are". I had serious doubts about this, though, even at 17. I know plenty of atheists now; people who apparently have no desires to dress up in black robes and hold midnight ceremonies in a dark basement, chanting over a naked woman on an altar.

OK, well maybe a little.

Mister Agenda · 15th August 2008, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by IgnorantGenius

Satanists do not believe in Satan or God.

Satan and God are characters in Christianity. Satanists hijack the image of Satan to simply make a rebellious point in the culture they live in.

Those who actually worship Satan as God's enemy are called Theistic Satanists.

Or, in the vernacular, devil worshipers.

moon1969 · 15th August 2008, 07:17 PM

Their concept of god is different. Maybe you should read Aleister Crowley to see more what he believed in. Im sure you will get more info from the OTO.

moon1969 · 15th August 2008, 07:19 PM

Oh yeah and Aleister Crowley was not a satanist.

Tsukasa Buddha · 15th August 2008, 07:20 PM

The Satanists I've encountered are of the LaVey variety, which means they are atheistic.

Basically they believe in selfishness and hedonism, though they wouldn't use such terminology. They are a lot like Libertarians

. But they believe in the value of ceremony and ornaments, because humans need that sort of stuff, allegedly.

There are Theistic Satanists, but I have not really had any discussions with them.

moon1969 · 15th August 2008, 07:29 PM

Karl Marx never believed in god. Still Grigori Rasputin did believe in god but he was not a satanist. Gerald Gardner was not a satanist and I don"t know if he believed in god or not.

skepticalbeliever · 15th August 2008, 07:38 PM

Satanist have a god, that god is Satan. There is no need to worship Satan to affirm your atheism. I chatted with a Satanist via myspace. She had pictures of serial killers all over. Her hero was Richard Rimarez. She insisted that she didn't believe in a god and that the satanism was just a way of affirming atheism. I don't see it that way.

Steelmage · 16th August 2008, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade

I know plenty of atheists now; people who apparently have no desires to dress up in black robes and hold midnight ceremonies in a dark basement, chanting over a naked woman on an altar.

OK, well maybe a little.

I am sure you could find plenty of people to play dress up, especailly when there is a naked woman invovled.

-Fran- · 16th August 2008, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

The Satanists I've encountered are of the LaVey variety, which means they are atheistic.

Basically they believe in selfishness and hedonism, though they wouldn't use such terminology. They are a lot like Libertarians

. But they believe in the value of ceremony and ornaments, because humans need that sort of stuff, allegedly.

There are Theistic Satanists, but I have not really had any discussions with them.

The LaVey-ian kind is one of the two only sorts of Satanists I've encountered. The serious ones, if you will. The other sort were people who just wanted to shock people and pretend they were dangerous.

Civilized Worm · 17th August 2008, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by skepticalbeliever

Satanist have a god, that god is Satan. There is no need to worship Satan to affirm your atheism. I chatted with a Satanist via myspace. She had pictures of serial killers all over. Her hero was Richard Rimarez. She insisted that she didn't believe in a god and that the satanism was just a way of affirming atheism. I don't see it that way.

Yeah, never mind what the actual satanists say, "skepticalbeliever" clearly knows their own minds better than they do.

Axiom_Blade · 17th August 2008, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by skepticalbeliever

Satanist have a god, that god is Satan. There is no need to worship Satan to affirm your atheism. I chatted with a Satanist via myspace. She had pictures of serial killers all over. Her hero was Richard Rimarez. She insisted that she didn't believe in a god and that the satanism was just a way of affirming atheism. I don't see it that way.

Most of the atheists I know think that Satanism is just silly.

But if I mention Satanism to anybody who's even the slightest bit religious, they get nervous. Get over it, people! There's no super-secret cabal in your town that's stealing cats!

Granted, there have been a few nut cases who've used Satanism as a rationale for why they chopped up their neighbors; but that number pales in comparison to all the people that've done the same thing because God told them to.

Dogdoctor · 17th August 2008, 11:33 PM

The Satanists I met believed in god and also believed that they could do whatever they wanted to as long as they repented their sins before they died. Their worst fear was to die suddenly and not be able to repent. I really think it was just an excuse to have orgies.

IgnorantGenius · 18th August 2008, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

Or, in the vernacular, devil worshipers.

I like sounding modern and sophisticated.

Dancing David · 20th August 2008, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

Well that is an interesting question. Crowley believed that the devil had fooled Christians into worshipping him - that only the enemy of mankind would demand that mankind relinquish the proud upright position God had given them by kneeling.

So that appears to suggest that he believed the real God is the person the Christians refer to as Satan.

Um, I am not sure of that, I have read a lot of Crowley's writing, except for the expansive Equinox, although I know many people who have gone through that beast as well.

In reading Crowley there are the multiple manifestations to consider:
-'the evilest man in the world': a stage persona to annoy Xians
-'the most annoying man in the world': the vitriolic and sarcastic Crowley
-'Crowley the teacher': often hides his truth in plain sight
-'Crowley the sexual': where he is in code or straight out talking about many strange (to me) sexual practices.

So say when you read the 'Rite of Phoenix' which is a transubstantiation where the operative cuts themselves with a knife on the chest.
-the 'evil' of self mutilation becomes the best form of sacrifice
-he is making fun of all sorts of people
-given the numbers of the eleven fold cross there are layers of interpretation
-given that there is a huge battle in the OTO over the meaning of the eleventh degree and if it is homosexual, it is likely the eleven fold cross involves sex, the 'cutting of the chest' is an allegory

There are however participants of the OTO who perform the rite of the Phoenix with a razor.

Dancing David · 20th August 2008, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

Absolutely, I have often mentioned in this forum that Crowley's tongue was lodged firmly in his cheek at most, if not all times.

The question is which cheek.

Beerina · 20th August 2008, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade

I read The Satanic Bible when I was 17. It was pretty good, but it didn't really make me want to be a Satanist.

Basically, what it breaks down to is:
A) Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else (all that stuff about killing kittens and babies is just Christian propaganda). Satanists aren't pacifists, though...they will act in self-defense.
B) Hedonism. I think it went along the lines of "live life to the fullest, and that will make your soul strong enough to survive death".
C) Be "selfish" ala Ayn Rand's Objectivism. (Only help those that deserve it.)

So, it's essentially Objectivism with silly costumes and ritual.

So it's the same thing as Hedonism!

beeksc1 · 20th August 2008, 12:48 PM

I know LaVey did not believe in God. But the posters who say that Crowley did not believe in divine powers also have noted that Crowley was a trickster; and that is very true, Crowley did pride himself on his prowess of deception. If you have gotten the impression that Crowley did not believe a higher power, do you think Crowley may have misled you?

Did Crowley virtually go insane (psychotic, lose a solid grip of reality) when he was on his death bed?

kmortis · 20th August 2008, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

The question is which cheek.

And who's...

kmortis · 20th August 2008, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by beeksc1

I know LaVey did not believe in God. But the posters who say that Crowley did not believe in divine powers also have noted that Crowley was a trickster; and that is very true, Crowley did pride himself on his prowess of deception. If you have gotten the impression that Crowley did not believe a higher power, do you think Crowley may have misled you?

Yes. It is very possible that Uncle Al misled me through his writings. At this stage in my life that deception is moot as I don't follow anything that we wrote.

Quote:

Did Crowley virtually go insane (psychotic, lose a solid grip of reality) when he was on his death bed?

Don't we all loose a grip on reality on our death beds? Isn't that what death is?

beeksc1 · 20th August 2008, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by kmortis

Yes. It is very possible that Uncle Al misled me through his writings.
...
Don't we all loose a grip on reality on our death beds? Isn't that what death is?

No, some people (even those with really positive outlooks, compared to the typical human) look forward to the death of our bodily vehicle. It seems like it will be a liberation from our tangible being.

So, are you saying that your Uncle Al did or did not end up in a state of serious mental psychosis, shortly before his death on Earth?

14th August 2008, 12:01 AM	#1
beeksc1 A holographic observer Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: In the here and now Posts: 321	Do Satanists believe in god? Aleister Crowley professed belief in a god. Karl Marx believed in god; and Marx opined that Friedrich Engels and himself (in German Ideology) were Quote: concerned with a highly interesting question: the decomposition of the Absolute Spirit. Have heard that the devil (Lucifer, Beelzebub, etc.) is a character that only exists in Christian folklore. Is Satanism an ideology that comes from the Christian belief? Do Satanists believe in a divine force?

14th August 2008, 12:07 AM	#2
Mark Felt Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 518	Theoretically, no, a belief in god isn't required for Satanism. From what I recall of the literature, Lucifer is revered as one who brought knowledge to the human race, I don't recall God being mentioned. (I'm almost certainly wrong)
Mark Felt Muse Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 518

14th August 2008, 12:11 AM	#3
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	I would ask a Satanist. From the self-described Satanists I have known (a sample size of three), the main idea seems to be that Christianity (and to some extent, other religions) have demonized the value of the self, and that Satan serves as the greatest symbol of this demonization. Two of these folks have claimed to be atheists and materialists, believing in no spiritual forces at all, merely in symbols. The other seemd to hold an essentially Christian-modeled worldview with the roles reversed. God was the bad guy. Satan was the liberator of mankind.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

14th August 2008, 06:36 AM	#6
Civilized Worm The Ayatollah of Rock and Rolla Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 1,718	Crowley wasn't a satanist and Marx didn't believe in god. What Delvo said is pretty much correct, satanism in the sense of the Church of Satan is basically for atheists who enjoy the trappings of religion. Even Anton LaVey admitted that his church was "just Ayn Rand's philosophy with ceremony and ritual added". It's pretty silly.
	__________________ "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens Thanks to Kilgore Trout and PaulHoff for the animated avatar.

14th August 2008, 08:29 AM	#7
Nosaj Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Earth Posts: 172	beeksc1, Originally Posted by beeksc1 Do Satanists believe in a divine force? The answer is that it depends on the particular Satanist. For example, there are some Satanists who are materialists who believe this life is all there is, that there is no G_d, no Devil and no afterlife; therefore, there is ultimately no right and wrong, no post-mortem consequences of actions and pleasure is all that really matters because this is it. These type of Satanists are basically just using "Satan" as an arch-type for human nature or as an attention-getter, e.g., Anton LaVey made a very profitable atheistic religion centered around this belief. The other kinds of Satanists, the ones who actually believe in Satan as an existent being, have many different beliefs that generally evolve from Christian theology. There are some who believe, for example, that Satan is actually the good guy, that G_d is not the true G_d or creator, but a lesser being who created the material world (as per Gnosticism). Yaweh is seen as a false god while Lucifer as the bringer of [the] light [of knowledge]. Then there are those who see Satan as the personification of forces such as chaos, evil, sensual desire, etc. As a side note, an interesting example of an atypically positive view of Satan can found in the Yezidis' religion. The Yezidis essentially consider Melek Taus (i.e., Shaytan) to be a benevolent angel, often represented as a peacock, who, along with six other angels, is said to have been tested by G_d. However, as Melek Taus was the only angel to pass G_d's test by refusing to worship Adam and extinguishing the fires of Hell with his tears, G_d made Melek Taus the chief of all angels and the caretaker of creation (Information about the Yezidi Kurds). Jason
	__________________ "Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58). Last edited by Nosaj; 14th August 2008 at 08:31 AM.

14th August 2008, 12:30 AM	#4
beeksc1 A holographic observer Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: In the here and now Posts: 321	Originally Posted by Mark Felt Theoretically, no, a belief in god isn't required for Satanism. From what I recall of the literature, Lucifer is revered as one who brought knowledge to the human race, I don't recall God being mentioned. (I'm almost certainly wrong) Conceptually, yes. A worship of Satan usually mandates the belief in a benevolent god. Of what I recollect from the evidence, God is the antithesis of the one who brings deception to humankind. I do remember Satan being referenced. (I am mostly accurat...) Marquis, the description of Satanism that characterizes the third person's perspective Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas The other seemd to hold an essentially Christian-modeled worldview with the roles reversed. God was the bad guy. Satan was the liberator of mankind. is the argument that I find most compelling; but, as Satan (and Satanism) reverses the goodness that can be found in the human mind, it maybe challenging to buy.

14th August 2008, 05:50 AM	#5
Delvo Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Posts: 3,878	The only brand of "Satanism" that I'm familiar with doesn't seem to consider any supernatural entities to be real, not even Satan. They apparently use the name and symbolism just to annoy Christians. What they actually believe is all about human nature: that "bad" things are part of us just as well as "good" things are and we should be tuned in to them and understand them so that we're choosing which ones to act on in an honest and informed way rather than out of blind fear, denial, or self-subjugation.

14th August 2008, 08:54 AM	#8
leonAzul Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Location: Nowhere Land Posts: 3,734	Originally Posted by beeksc1 Have heard that the devil (Lucifer, Beelzebub, etc.) is a character that only exists in Christian folklore. Is Satanism an ideology that comes from the Christian belief? There is a great deal of confusion about the devil. Textually, there is a reference to Lucifer (literally, the one who carries the light) who allowed worship of himself, thus falling due to unworthy pride [Isaias 14:12ff]. IMHO, the message there is that claiming credit for someone else's work is flat out wrong. "And so it's true, pride comes before a fall " -- I'm a loser (c) Lennon/McCartney The rest is a whole lot of superstition with any number of epithets for the Evil One. In short: Don't blame Christians for superstition. It's part and parcel of the human experience.
	__________________ "Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits." - Satchel Paige

14th August 2008, 10:58 AM	#9
Huh-What? Thinker Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 154	Originally Posted by Elohim beeksc1, The answer is that it depends on the particular Satanist. For example, there are some Satanists who are materialists who believe this life is all there is, that there is no G_d, no Devil and no afterlife; therefore, there is ultimately no right and wrong, no post-mortem consequences of actions and pleasure is all that really matters because this is it. These type of Satanists are basically just using "Satan" as an arch-type for human nature or as an attention-getter, e.g., Anton LaVey made a very profitable atheistic religion centered around this belief. The other kinds of Satanists, the ones who actually believe in Satan as an existent being, have many different beliefs that generally evolve from Christian theology. There are some who believe, for example, that Satan is actually the good guy, that G_d is not the true G_d or creator, but a lesser being who created the material world (as per Gnosticism). Yaweh is seen as a false god while Lucifer as the bringer of [the] light [of knowledge]. Then there are those who see Satan as the personification of forces such as chaos, evil, sensual desire, etc. As a side note, an interesting example of an atypically positive view of Satan can found in the Yezidis' religion. The Yezidis essentially consider Melek Taus (i.e., Shaytan) to be a benevolent angel, often represented as a peacock, who, along with six other angels, is said to have been tested by G_d. However, as Melek Taus was the only angel to pass G_d's test by refusing to worship Adam and extinguishing the fires of Hell with his tears, G_d made Melek Taus the chief of all angels and the caretaker of creation (Information about the Yezidi Kurds). Jason Just curious. Why do you use G_d instead of God? I am sure there has been a discussion on this in another thread, but I don't see it.
	__________________ "Science is hard, takes a lot of work, and requires too much thinking; religion, on the other hand, laughs at hard thought and offers eternal salvation and glorious life, all for the price of a few hymns sung and some hours every Sunday being hypnotised in a pretty building." - zaayrdragon

14th August 2008, 11:26 AM	#10
plumjam Banned Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Valencia, Spain Posts: 7,837	My auntie went on a few dates with Anton LaVey. It was never gonna work; all she ever did was crochet.

14th August 2008, 01:33 PM	#11
Nosaj Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Earth Posts: 172	Huh-What?, Originally Posted by Huh-What? Just curious. Why do you use G_d instead of God? I am sure there has been a discussion on this in another thread, but I don't see it. I use 'G_d' when referencing the deity of the three Abrahamic religions, mainly because Hebrew uses no vowels, and out of share habit. Jason
	__________________ "Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

14th August 2008, 01:38 PM	#12
Drudgewire Critical Doofus Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9,434	One of my oldest friends is a priest in the Church of Satan. Occasionally when we talk he'll mock me for "still believing in fairy tales" and I'll respond with "and you go through the same ritualistic nonsense christians do." That's why I like the Norwegian black metal satanists. They had about as much use for LaVey as they did for the pope.
	__________________ "You post a lie, it is proven 100% false, you move the goalposts and post yet another lie and it continues on around till we're back to the original lie as if it will somehow become true if it's re-iterated again. The same misquotes over and over again. The same hindsight bias, appeals to authority, etc." -lapman describing every twoofer on the internet

14th August 2008, 01:46 PM	#13
Nosaj Thinker Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Earth Posts: 172	Originally Posted by Drudgewire That's why I like the Norwegian black metal satanists. \,,/
	__________________ "Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

14th August 2008, 03:31 PM	#14
Nogbad Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,513	Satinism is OK if it is a 70s disco night though.
	__________________ Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum.

14th August 2008, 03:53 PM	#15
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Originally Posted by Civilized Worm Crowley wasn't a satanist... Well that is an interesting question. Crowley believed that the devil had fooled Christians into worshipping him - that only the enemy of mankind would demand that mankind relinquish the proud upright position God had given them by kneeling. So that appears to suggest that he believed the real God is the person the Christians refer to as Satan.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

14th August 2008, 05:55 PM	#16
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,543	Originally Posted by Robin Well that is an interesting question. Crowley believed that the devil had fooled Christians into worshipping him - that only the enemy of mankind would demand that mankind relinquish the proud upright position God had given them by kneeling. So that appears to suggest that he believed the real God is the person the Christians refer to as Satan. I would caution taking anything that Uncle Al said at face value. He was a notorious trickster who liked to pull pranks on his readers. That being said, having read quite a bit of Crowley, I'd vote that he thought that he was god, and the rest were all posers.
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

14th August 2008, 06:52 PM	#17
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Originally Posted by kmortis I would caution taking anything that Uncle Al said at face value. He was a notorious trickster who liked to pull pranks on his readers. Absolutely, I have often mentioned in this forum that Crowley's tongue was lodged firmly in his cheek at most, if not all times. Quote: That being said, having read quite a bit of Crowley, I'd vote that he thought that he was god, and the rest were all posers. I seem to remember that at one point he says "One day you will be speaking of the Sunset of Crowleyanity".
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

14th August 2008, 10:06 PM	#18
IgnorantGenius New Blood Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 15	Satanists do not believe in Satan or God. Satan and God are characters in Christianity. Satanists hijack the image of Satan to simply make a rebellious point in the culture they live in. Those who actually worship Satan as God's enemy are called *Theistic Satanists*.
IgnorantGenius New Blood Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 15	Last edited by IgnorantGenius; 14th August 2008 at 10:12 PM.

15th August 2008, 06:54 AM	#19
Lab Rat New Blood Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: London Posts: 12	There was point of enquiry podcast where DJ Groethe interviewed Peter Gilmore who is the high priest of the church of satan. I'd post the link but this is my first post and I don't have that option yet. They don't worship satan, they take satan from the hebrew to mean adversary. So they're adversaries of all faith based religions. I got the impression that it was a theatrical, selfish form of atheism. Selfish in the sense that they organise their lives to maximise they're happinees and pleasures, which we all do to some extent. I just think satanists are more upfront about it. They don't feel the need to live up to some ideal of goodness, unless of course that matters to the individual satanist.

15th August 2008, 08:13 AM	#20
CriticalThanking Designated Hitter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the queue to Williamsport Posts: 2,159	Originally Posted by Elohim I use 'G_d' when referencing the deity of the three Abrahamic religions, mainly because Hebrew uses no vowels, and out of share habit. Jason When I was young and undergoing Judaic ~~indoctrination~~ education, I was taught that it was poor form to use the deity's full name. That's why I never refer to Jesus Horatio Christ, just Jesus H. Christ. In a similar vein, when saying the words of a prayer without really praying (showing off for goyim, etc), one should use the word "Adoshem" instead of "Adonai". I will not vouch for my accuracy in reporting someone else's dogma. [derail] Elohim - your nick reminds me of a run-in with a prosthelytizer back in college who tried to convince me that the old testament "proved" the xtian trinity because the word Elohim is a plural form. [/derail]. CT
	__________________ T-Mobile customer service sucks. Happiness should not be a zero sum game. Did I mention T-Mobile customer service sucks?

15th August 2008, 09:07 AM	#21
Axiom_Blade Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,728	I read The Satanic Bible when I was 17. It was pretty good, but it didn't really make me want to be a Satanist. Basically, what it breaks down to is: A) Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else (all that stuff about killing kittens and babies is just Christian propaganda). Satanists aren't pacifists, though...they will act in self-defense. B) Hedonism. I think it went along the lines of "live life to the fullest, and that will make your soul strong enough to survive death". C) Be "selfish" ala Ayn Rand's Objectivism. (Only help those that deserve it.) So, it's essentially Objectivism with silly costumes and ritual. LaVey addresses this in the Satanic Bible, however, and argues that humanity needs the silly costumes and ritual because "that's just the way we are". I had serious doubts about this, though, even at 17. I know plenty of atheists now; people who apparently have no desires to dress up in black robes and hold midnight ceremonies in a dark basement, chanting over a naked woman on an altar. OK, well maybe a little.

15th August 2008, 06:06 PM	#22
Mister Agenda Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 2,619	Originally Posted by IgnorantGenius Satanists do not believe in Satan or God. Satan and God are characters in Christianity. Satanists hijack the image of Satan to simply make a rebellious point in the culture they live in. Those who actually worship Satan as God's enemy are called *Theistic Satanists*. Or, in the vernacular, devil worshipers.

15th August 2008, 07:17 PM	#23
moon1969 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,288	Their concept of god is different. Maybe you should read Aleister Crowley to see more what he believed in. Im sure you will get more info from the OTO.

15th August 2008, 07:19 PM	#24
moon1969 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,288	Oh yeah and Aleister Crowley was not a satanist.

15th August 2008, 07:20 PM	#25
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,883	The Satanists I've encountered are of the LaVey variety, which means they are atheistic. Basically they believe in selfishness and hedonism, though they wouldn't use such terminology. They are a lot like Libertarians . But they believe in the value of ceremony and ornaments, because humans need that sort of stuff, allegedly. There are Theistic Satanists, but I have not really had any discussions with them.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

15th August 2008, 07:29 PM	#26
moon1969 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,288	Karl Marx never believed in god. Still Grigori Rasputin did believe in god but he was not a satanist. Gerald Gardner was not a satanist and I don"t know if he believed in god or not.

15th August 2008, 07:38 PM	#27
skepticalbeliever Thinker Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 199	Satanist have a god, that god is Satan. There is no need to worship Satan to affirm your atheism. I chatted with a Satanist via myspace. She had pictures of serial killers all over. Her hero was Richard Rimarez. She insisted that she didn't believe in a god and that the satanism was just a way of affirming atheism. I don't see it that way.
skepticalbeliever Thinker Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 199

16th August 2008, 12:31 PM	#28
Steelmage Muse Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 630	Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade I know plenty of atheists now; people who apparently have no desires to dress up in black robes and hold midnight ceremonies in a dark basement, chanting over a naked woman on an altar. OK, well maybe a little. I am sure you could find plenty of people to play dress up, especailly when there is a naked woman invovled.

16th August 2008, 01:07 PM	#29
-Fran- Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,581	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha The Satanists I've encountered are of the LaVey variety, which means they are atheistic. Basically they believe in selfishness and hedonism, though they wouldn't use such terminology. They are a lot like Libertarians . But they believe in the value of ceremony and ornaments, because humans need that sort of stuff, allegedly. There are Theistic Satanists, but I have not really had any discussions with them. The LaVey-ian kind is one of the two only sorts of Satanists I've encountered. The serious ones, if you will. The other sort were people who just wanted to shock people and pretend they were dangerous.
	__________________ Thank goodness there are such things as lies. Imagine if everything you heard was true! (Albert Engström)

17th August 2008, 03:05 PM	#30
Civilized Worm The Ayatollah of Rock and Rolla Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 1,718	Originally Posted by skepticalbeliever Satanist have a god, that god is Satan. There is no need to worship Satan to affirm your atheism. I chatted with a Satanist via myspace. She had pictures of serial killers all over. Her hero was Richard Rimarez. She insisted that she didn't believe in a god and that the satanism was just a way of affirming atheism. I don't see it that way. Yeah, never mind what the actual satanists say, "skepticalbeliever" clearly knows their own minds better than they do.
	__________________ "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens Thanks to Kilgore Trout and PaulHoff for the animated avatar.

17th August 2008, 09:33 PM	#31
Axiom_Blade Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,728	Originally Posted by skepticalbeliever Satanist have a god, that god is Satan. There is no need to worship Satan to affirm your atheism. I chatted with a Satanist via myspace. She had pictures of serial killers all over. Her hero was Richard Rimarez. She insisted that she didn't believe in a god and that the satanism was just a way of affirming atheism. I don't see it that way. Most of the atheists I know think that Satanism is just silly. But if I mention Satanism to anybody who's even the slightest bit religious, they get nervous. Get over it, people! There's no super-secret cabal in your town that's stealing cats! Granted, there have been a few nut cases who've used Satanism as a rationale for why they chopped up their neighbors; but that number pales in comparison to all the people that've done the same thing because God told them to.

17th August 2008, 11:33 PM	#32
Dogdoctor Canis Doctorius Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pacific Ocean Posts: 14,275	The Satanists I met believed in god and also believed that they could do whatever they wanted to as long as they repented their sins before they died. Their worst fear was to die suddenly and not be able to repent. I really think it was just an excuse to have orgies.
	__________________

18th August 2008, 01:19 AM	#33
IgnorantGenius New Blood Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 15	Originally Posted by Mister Agenda Or, in the vernacular, devil worshipers. I like sounding modern and sophisticated.
IgnorantGenius New Blood Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 15

20th August 2008, 04:52 AM	#34
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,699	Originally Posted by Robin Well that is an interesting question. Crowley believed that the devil had fooled Christians into worshipping him - that only the enemy of mankind would demand that mankind relinquish the proud upright position God had given them by kneeling. So that appears to suggest that he believed the real God is the person the Christians refer to as Satan. Um, I am not sure of that, I have read a lot of Crowley's writing, except for the expansive Equinox, although I know many people who have gone through that beast as well. In reading Crowley there are the multiple manifestations to consider: -'the evilest man in the world': a stage persona to annoy Xians -'the most annoying man in the world': the vitriolic and sarcastic Crowley -'Crowley the teacher': often hides his truth in plain sight -'Crowley the sexual': where he is in code or straight out talking about many strange (to me) sexual practices. So say when you read the 'Rite of Phoenix' which is a transubstantiation where the operative cuts themselves with a knife on the chest. -the 'evil' of self mutilation becomes the best form of sacrifice -he is making fun of all sorts of people -given the numbers of the eleven fold cross there are layers of interpretation -given that there is a huge battle in the OTO over the meaning of the eleventh degree and if it is homosexual, it is likely the eleven fold cross involves sex, the 'cutting of the chest' is an allegory There are however participants of the OTO who perform the rite of the Phoenix with a razor.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Last edited by Dancing David; 20th August 2008 at 04:54 AM.

20th August 2008, 04:55 AM	#35
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,699	Originally Posted by Robin Absolutely, I have often mentioned in this forum that Crowley's tongue was lodged firmly in his cheek at most, if not all times. The question is which cheek.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager