Suicide at extreme latitudes: just how true is this?

Spunk-Monkey · 29th August 2008, 02:28 PM

In a discussion at work, the point came up about higher suicide rates in Scandinavian countries during winter. I've heard this premise before, but it i've always heard it without any real verification, and it kinda smacks to me of being a potential urban legend (at least until i can actually say i know better).

On the surface it makes sense to me when thought about in light of seasonal mood disorder. The common sound byte usually comes along the lines of: "Norwegians/Swedes/Fins have a much higher suicide rate because the winters are so dark (that's, like, so true-- I read it somewhere)". To me, the jump to the latter from SMD's impact on serotonin production skips many potential factors.
So i thought i'd ask here, in case someone knew a bit on the subject (or a good place to dig):

Is there really a verified higher suicide rate in Sweden/Norway/Finland? If so, by how much? And when? How does the rate change at different latitudes?
How does it compare among multi-generation regional families versus recent transplants with limited experience to such a seasonal change? (This is really more related to the context how the premise was brought up, but would be interesting to see nonetheless)
What other environmental, behavioral or social factors come into play?
What impact is there from light sources other than sunlight?
I wonder: do those goofy "light visors" we saw on Northern Exposure really work?
What other factors have i not even considered?

Anyway, i was wonder if anyone knew something more concrete than the oft quoted premise? I'd appreciate any input on it, if only for personal curiosity.

Fredrik · 29th August 2008, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Spunk-Monkey

[*]Is there really a verified higher suicide rate in Sweden/Norway/Finland?

Those countries are 31, 41 and 16 on this list.

Ladewig · 29th August 2008, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Fredrik

Those countries are 31, 41 and 16 on this list.

What a fascinating chart. It is so linear until the very high numbers. Seeing the men outnumber the woman from between 2:1 and 6:1 also appears interesting.

Are the numbers self-reported to the WHO or do they do their own calculations? I ask because local attitudes about suicide differ greatly when one is looking at all countries and some governments may understate the number.

bickerer · 29th August 2008, 03:30 PM

the incidence of suicide is higher in colder countries, as well, with the last 10 on the list being hot places.

leon_heller · 29th August 2008, 04:02 PM

When I took an abnormal psychology course as part of my psychology degree, we were told that there was a high incidence of schizophrenia in Sweden, because of all the marriages between related people that took place there over the past few hundred years.

Hungary has always had a high incidence of depressive illness, and a correspondingly high suicide rate.

Leon

Luciana · 29th August 2008, 04:18 PM

In Brazil, the farther south you go, that is, the colder it gets, the more people commit suicide. And those people are relatively wealthy. That's in stark contrast to the poorest places in the country, which are also the hottest, and where suicide is very rare.

I don't buy the argument that suicides may be underreported. On the contrary, if anything, suicides may be played up to create the illusion of lower crime rates. Also, unless we're talking of a really weak government, the fact is that deaths must be categorized correctly because of possible epidemics, rates for crime, DIU deaths, etc. That is, many pressure groups exist that demand proper identification of causa mortis. So it's likely that only the poorest countries, with weak governments, may ever underreport suicides.

BillC · 29th August 2008, 04:32 PM

Hereditary disposition towards depression?

Jeff Corey · 29th August 2008, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by leon_heller

When I took an abnormal psychology course as part of my psychology degree, we were told that there was a high incidence of schizophrenia in Sweden, because of all the marriages between related people that took place there over the past few hundred years...

I would be very skeptical of a number of those "facts".

kittynh · 29th August 2008, 05:50 PM

good point!

I do know that from countries with say a strong religious view against suicide, there might be underreporting.

I also heard that suicide rates skyrocket in Alaska during the winter months. I don't know if that is true or not.

cgallaga · 29th August 2008, 06:07 PM

I'm also guessing its an impossibly confounded statistics. For one thing a lot of Asian cultures (Japan and China as example) have a very different "philosophy" than most of the west towards life and death and there is still a strong current of belief that suicide can be an honorable end.

tim · 29th August 2008, 10:36 PM

I'm amazed at how far down the list the UK comes - 62nd. 7 out of 100,000 per annum.

-Fran- · 29th August 2008, 11:41 PM

This thread makes me depressed

Seriously! I have nothing but anecdotal experiences with this. Three times people close to me (two relatives and one friend) chose to end their lives. The one thing they had in common were that they were all three having rather serious problems with alcohol.

I am not sure that this was the main factor, but I am sure that it gave them the "courage" to take the actual step, as all three had been found drinking large amounts just before doing it.

There is a lot of drinking in this country, it might be ONE factor that contributes if suicide rates are indeed higher here than in other countries.

Tanja · 30th August 2008, 02:05 AM

I read an article in a Croatian newspaper just yesterday about suicide rates in Greenland - I found a brief version in English here. The research they quote apparently shows that one in four young women and just under one in five young men attempt suicide. Googling Greenland and suicide also led me to this paper on government strategy on dealing with the suicide issue.

leon_heller · 30th August 2008, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by Jeff Corey

I would be very skeptical of a number of those "facts".

Records of marriages and births are available going back a long time, so it is a well-established fact. Also, schizophrenia has quite a strong genetic component.

Leon

Delvo · 30th August 2008, 06:09 AM

Because of the many cultural factors that can change these results, a comparison of one country to another won't really get us anywhere. We need to compare places that are at different latitudes but the same country & culture. That means we need countries with a long north-south range, like the USA, maybe Russia & Canada including their small southernmost points, and Chile & Argentina. But I haven't seen any studies which did that.

(Another one of those things I don't believe but can't find data on was recently the basis for a new TV show about a the dating life of a woman in Alaska, where the men supposedly outnumber the women 8:1. I suspect this was probably true once, when Alaska was a frontier being occupied mainly by opportunistic immigrants, similar to the "Old West". But these days there's no constant flow of people into Alaska anymore, so most have to have been born there, and that would be roughly 50/50 unless there's something really weird going on...)

Foolmewunz · 30th August 2008, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Delvo

Because of the many cultural factors that can change these results, a comparison of one country to another won't really get us anywhere. We need to compare places that are at different latitudes but the same country & culture. That means we need countries with a long north-south range, like the USA, maybe Russia & Canada including their small southernmost points, and Chile & Argentina. But I haven't seen any studies which did that.

(Another one of those things I don't believe but can't find data on was recently the basis for a new TV show about a the dating life of a woman in Alaska, where the men supposedly outnumber the women 8:1. I suspect this was probably true once, when Alaska was a frontier being occupied mainly by opportunistic immigrants, similar to the "Old West". But these days there's no constant flow of people into Alaska anymore, so most have to have been born there, and that would be roughly 50/50 unless there's something really weird going on...)

Bolded part....

Old ~~wives'~~ spinsters' tale, no doubt. It's a good deal higher than the national average, but it's about 51.5% male to 48.5% female.

29th August 2008, 02:28 PM	#1
Spunk-Monkey New Blood Join Date: May 2008 Location: Marin County, CA Posts: 24	Suicide at extreme latitudes: just how true is this? In a discussion at work, the point came up about higher suicide rates in Scandinavian countries during winter. I've heard this premise before, but it i've always heard it without any real verification, and it kinda smacks to me of being a potential urban legend (at least until i can actually say i know better). On the surface it makes sense to me when thought about in light of seasonal mood disorder. The common sound byte usually comes along the lines of: "Norwegians/Swedes/Fins have a much higher suicide rate because the winters are so dark (that's, like, so true-- I read it somewhere)". To me, the jump to the latter from SMD's impact on serotonin production skips many potential factors. So i thought i'd ask here, in case someone knew a bit on the subject (or a good place to dig): Is there really a verified higher suicide rate in Sweden/Norway/Finland? If so, by how much? And when? How does the rate change at different latitudes? How does it compare among multi-generation regional families versus recent transplants with limited experience to such a seasonal change? (This is really more related to the context how the premise was brought up, but would be interesting to see nonetheless) What other environmental, behavioral or social factors come into play? What impact is there from light sources other than sunlight? I wonder: do those goofy "light visors" we saw on Northern Exposure really work? What other factors have i not even considered? Anyway, i was wonder if anyone knew something more concrete than the oft quoted premise? I'd appreciate any input on it, if only for personal curiosity.

29th August 2008, 02:49 PM	#2
Fredrik Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,912	Originally Posted by Spunk-Monkey [*]Is there really a verified higher suicide rate in Sweden/Norway/Finland? Those countries are 31, 41 and 16 on this list.
Fredrik Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,912

29th August 2008, 03:20 PM	#3
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,803	Originally Posted by Fredrik Those countries are 31, 41 and 16 on this list. What a fascinating chart. It is so linear until the very high numbers. Seeing the men outnumber the woman from between 2:1 and 6:1 also appears interesting. Are the numbers self-reported to the WHO or do they do their own calculations? I ask because local attitudes about suicide differ greatly when one is looking at all countries and some governments may understate the number.
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29th August 2008, 03:30 PM	#4
bickerer Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 318	the incidence of suicide is higher in colder countries, as well, with the last 10 on the list being hot places.
bickerer Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 318

29th August 2008, 04:02 PM	#5
leon_heller Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: St. Leonards-on-Sea, E. Sussex, UK. Posts: 1,090	When I took an abnormal psychology course as part of my psychology degree, we were told that there was a high incidence of schizophrenia in Sweden, because of all the marriages between related people that took place there over the past few hundred years. Hungary has always had a high incidence of depressive illness, and a correspondingly high suicide rate. Leon
	__________________ Leon Heller G1HSM Last edited by leon_heller; 29th August 2008 at 04:03 PM.

29th August 2008, 04:18 PM	#6
Luciana Skeptical Carioca Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 10,952	In Brazil, the farther south you go, that is, the colder it gets, the more people commit suicide. And those people are relatively wealthy. That's in stark contrast to the poorest places in the country, which are also the hottest, and where suicide is very rare. I don't buy the argument that suicides may be underreported. On the contrary, if anything, suicides may be played up to create the illusion of lower crime rates. Also, unless we're talking of a really weak government, the fact is that deaths must be categorized correctly because of possible epidemics, rates for crime, DIU deaths, etc. That is, many pressure groups exist that demand proper identification of causa mortis. So it's likely that only the poorest countries, with weak governments, may ever underreport suicides.
	__________________ Regards, Luciana

29th August 2008, 04:32 PM	#7
BillC Bazooka Joe Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,035	Hereditary disposition towards depression?
BillC Bazooka Joe Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,035	__________________ "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams "If homeopathy works, then obviously the less you use it, the stronger it gets. So the best way to apply homeopathy is to not use it at all." - Phil Plait Do you want to know about Sylvia Browne?

29th August 2008, 04:39 PM	#8
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,794	Originally Posted by leon_heller When I took an abnormal psychology course as part of my psychology degree, we were told that there was a high incidence of schizophrenia in Sweden, because of all the marriages between related people that took place there over the past few hundred years... I would be very skeptical of a number of those "facts".

29th August 2008, 05:50 PM	#9
kittynh The Hupsu Detective auctioneer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: If I told the aliens could find me, and you know they read this forum Posts: 22,707	good point! I do know that from countries with say a strong religious view against suicide, there might be underreporting. I also heard that suicide rates skyrocket in Alaska during the winter months. I don't know if that is true or not.
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29th August 2008, 06:07 PM	#10
cgallaga Stranger in a Strange Land Join Date: May 2006 Location: Beautiful Ma Wan Island Posts: 1,550	I'm also guessing its an impossibly confounded statistics. For one thing a lot of Asian cultures (Japan and China as example) have a very different "philosophy" than most of the west towards life and death and there is still a strong current of belief that suicide can be an honorable end.
	__________________ Humanity has advanced, when it has advanced, not because it has been sober, responsible, and cautious, but because it has been playful, rebellious, and immature. -- Tom Robbins Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. --Voltaire

29th August 2008, 10:36 PM	#11
tim Lasiorhinus latifrons Combat Division Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bedfordshire, UK Posts: 11,331	I'm amazed at how far down the list the UK comes - 62nd. 7 out of 100,000 per annum.
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29th August 2008, 11:41 PM	#12
-Fran- Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,581	This thread makes me depressed Seriously! I have nothing but anecdotal experiences with this. Three times people close to me (two relatives and one friend) chose to end their lives. The one thing they had in common were that they were all three having rather serious problems with alcohol. I am not sure that this was the main factor, but I am sure that it gave them the "courage" to take the actual step, as all three had been found drinking large amounts just before doing it. There is a lot of drinking in this country, it might be ONE factor that contributes if suicide rates are indeed higher here than in other countries.
	__________________ Thank goodness there are such things as lies. Imagine if everything you heard was true! (Albert Engström)

30th August 2008, 02:05 AM	#13
Tanja Comfortably Numb Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,001	I read an article in a Croatian newspaper just yesterday about suicide rates in Greenland - I found a brief version in English here. The research they quote apparently shows that one in four young women and just under one in five young men attempt suicide. Googling Greenland and suicide also led me to this paper on government strategy on dealing with the suicide issue.
Tanja Comfortably Numb Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,001

30th August 2008, 02:22 AM	#14
leon_heller Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: St. Leonards-on-Sea, E. Sussex, UK. Posts: 1,090	Originally Posted by Jeff Corey I would be very skeptical of a number of those "facts". Records of marriages and births are available going back a long time, so it is a well-established fact. Also, schizophrenia has quite a strong genetic component. Leon
	__________________ Leon Heller G1HSM Last edited by leon_heller; 30th August 2008 at 02:24 AM.

30th August 2008, 06:09 AM	#15
Delvo Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Posts: 3,884	Because of the many cultural factors that can change these results, a comparison of one country to another won't really get us anywhere. We need to compare places that are at different latitudes but the same country & culture. That means we need countries with a long north-south range, like the USA, maybe Russia & Canada including their small southernmost points, and Chile & Argentina. But I haven't seen any studies which did that. (Another one of those things I don't believe but can't find data on was recently the basis for a new TV show about a the dating life of a woman in Alaska, where the men supposedly outnumber the women 8:1. I suspect this was probably true once, when Alaska was a frontier being occupied mainly by opportunistic immigrants, similar to the "Old West". But these days there's no constant flow of people into Alaska anymore, so most have to have been born there, and that would be roughly 50/50 unless there's something really weird going on...)

30th August 2008, 07:20 AM	#16
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,516	Originally Posted by Delvo Because of the many cultural factors that can change these results, a comparison of one country to another won't really get us anywhere. We need to compare places that are at different latitudes but the same country & culture. That means we need countries with a long north-south range, like the USA, maybe Russia & Canada including their small southernmost points, and Chile & Argentina. But I haven't seen any studies which did that. (Another one of those things I don't believe but can't find data on was recently the basis for a new TV show about a the dating life of a woman in Alaska, where the men supposedly outnumber the women 8:1. I suspect this was probably true once, when Alaska was a frontier being occupied mainly by opportunistic immigrants, similar to the "Old West". But these days there's no constant flow of people into Alaska anymore, so most have to have been born there, and that would be roughly 50/50 unless there's something really weird going on...) Bolded part.... Old ~~wives'~~ spinsters' tale, no doubt. It's a good deal higher than the national average, but it's about 51.5% male to 48.5% female.
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