Split Thread: 9/11 used to excuse millions of lives destroyed in the Middle East

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear

Just as I did at the University earlier today I'll offer my heartfelt condolences. May we never forget....

Honestly, how likely is it that it is going to be forgotten?

What appears to be forgotten are the millions of lives that have been destroyed in the Middle East since, for no good reason, using the victims of 911 as an excuse.

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

Honestly, how likely is it that it is going to be forgotten?

What appears to be forgotten are the millions of lives that have been destroyed in the Middle East since, for no good reason, using the victims of 911 as an excuse.

Well, it didn't take long to get back into full swing here.

JJ, start a new thread.

[T.A.M.]

yes when the nonsense fails to gain followers, jump on the "war in the middle east" wagon to garnish sympathy.

9/11 was used in part to promote a war agenda, IMO, no doubt, but it does not make one single sentence of truther theory correct...still a stinking pile of horse crap.

TAM

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by applecorped

Well, it didn't take long to get back into full swing here.

JJ, start a new thread.

911, the destruction of Iraq and war-mongering 911 memorial rhetoric (some on this thread - "Nineteen devils with hearts of coal"- gumboot ) are intimately linked. Most of the soldiers who were initially deployed to Iraq believed they were there to avenge 911. They were lied to.

We are talking about cold-blooded, unjustifiable mass murder.

Many people find the USA's prolonged perception of its 3,000+ 911 deaths as somehow more tragic and terrible than the hundreds of thousands of victims of war terror machines before and since, to be somewhat obscene, especially when accomplanied by self-righteous, patriotic flag waving. It starts to look like maudlin war propaganda functioning mostly to sustain and support the USA's permanent state of war.

911 was horrific but many people have died equally horrifically since. Please get some perepective. American lives are not uniquely valuable.

- - -

Lest we forget:


Iraqi deaths due to US invasion:
1,255,026

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html

"Up to 5 million Iraqis have been displaced by the war 'with little to lose and nothing to look forward to'”


http://web.mit.edu/humancostiraq/

“50 percent of Iraqi children cannot attend school and only 40 percent have access to safe water.”

ibid

“A recent survey of the Iraqis who fled the Iraq war to Syria finds "that many of the Iraqi refugees that come . . . are suffering from depression, anxiety and post-traumatic stress disorder."

ibid

“Now [Iraqis] have to fear going to work, sending their children to schools, providing decent life for themselves, or even being safe while in their own homes. The danger engulfed the lives of the Iraqis in every way, leaving them desperately worrying of what next steps they needed to take in order to stay alive. Amid all the chaos and bloodshed, people began to pine for the days under Saddam’s brutal but orderly rule.

The constant feeling among the Iraqis is that their blood is cheap and no one cares for them”

http://web.mit.edu/humancostiraq/rep...ed-report.html

This mass suffering of human suffering is perpetuated by the lie that 911 was an unexpected attack.

The senseless murder of Americans, Iraqis and Afghans should be remembered together, at the same time, on the anniversary of the crime that led to these deaths.

[Grizzly Bear]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

<<Snip>>

And they had to lie about WMD's to justify going in, and many other nations initially agreed among a variety of other matters. I'm all for discussion, but can we please take this to a new thread and stop derailing this one?

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

We are talking about cold-blooded, unjustifiable mass murder.

Yes, that describes 9/11 quite accurately.

[Cainkane1]

Well The was in Afghanistan needed to happen. Al Quida needed to be overthrown. The was in Iraq was supposed to depose Sadam Hussein. I wish we had left saddam in power. He killed thousands of kurds but the american army has killed a lot of everybody else. My feelings are mixed. I deplore the los of innocent lives.

[Radrook]

You are either missing the point or ignoring the point. Which is it?

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by applecorped

Yes, that describes 9/11 quite accurately.

True.

It also describes many other military actions.

[Arthur Denton]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

True.

It also describes many other military actions.

You mean senseless terrorist actions, aye?

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

True.

It also describes many other military actions.

....and?

[A W Smith]

this split thread illustrates that to a hammer. everything is a nail.

[dudalb]

Quote:

some on this thread - "Nineteen devils with hearts of coal"- gumboot

That seems like a pretty good description of Atta and his buddies.
Of course to Jihad Jane they are probably "Heroic Fighters Against Imperialism".

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by Arthur Denton

You mean senseless terrorist actions, aye?

What do you mean by "terrorist"?

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

What do you mean by "terrorist"?

Do you consider anyone, anywhere, at anytime a terrorist?

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by dudalb

That seems like a pretty good description of Atta and his buddies.
Of course to Jihad Jane they are probably "Heroic Fighters Against Imperialism".

How would you describe the heart of bomber pilot who knows knows that there will always be "collateral damage" but still drops the bombs?

There have been conflicting, contradictory descriptions about what "Atta and his buddies" were really like. We know very little about them or their hearts with any certainty.

[stateofgrace]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

How would you describe the heart of bomber pilot who knows knows that there will always be "collateral damage" but still drops the bombs?

There have been conflicting, contradictory descriptions about what "Atta and his buddies" were really like. We know very little about them or their hearts with any certainty.

Actually I am a member of the anti war collation. I matched against the war in Iraq, prior to it of course.

So just as a point of interest, could you give me one reason why I should buy into insane theories about inside jobs, bombs in the towers or any other drivel the you and your ridiculous movement comes out with?

Just one reason will do.

ETA
Have you marched? Have you actually done anything to express your beliefs, anything at all?

[gumboot]

I really hate to see nonsense thrown around without being questioned. The total toll of Iraqi civilians killed due to military operations post the March 2003 invasion is not 1.2 million, or even remotely close to it.

And as the data from the Iraqi Body Count demonstrates, the overwhelming majority of "civilian" deaths caused by occupation forces are insurgents, not civilians.

Now, obviously the majority of deaths are not caused by occupation forces at all, but by Iraqis killing other Iraqis. Well sorry, but I refuse to accept that these deaths should be blamed on coalition forces. There is no reason Iraqis should be killing each other just because of the occupation. That's their own decision to make, it's a stupid, senseless, selfish and murderous decision to make, and it's entirely their own fault.

The reason Iraq is a disaster is because of the Iraqis, not the occupation forces. They quite clearly don't give a flying fig about their society, and frankly neither should anyone else. I have no respect for people like that.

And that's why I don't care how many of them are killed. They're killing themselves, so RULE10 them.

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by gumboot

I really hate to see nonsense thrown around without being questioned. The total toll of Iraqi civilians killed due to military operations post the March 2003 invasion is not 1.2 million, or even remotely close to it.

And as the data from the Iraqi Body Count demonstrates, the overwhelming majority of "civilian" deaths caused by occupation forces are insurgents, not civilians.

Now, obviously the majority of deaths are not caused by occupation forces at all, but by Iraqis killing other Iraqis. Well sorry, but I refuse to accept that these deaths should be blamed on coalition forces. There is no reason Iraqis should be killing each other just because of the occupation. That's their own decision to make, it's a stupid, senseless, selfish and murderous decision to make, and it's entirely their own fault.

The reason Iraq is a disaster is because of the Iraqis, not the occupation forces. They quite clearly don't give a flying fig about their society, and frankly neither should anyone else. I have no respect for people like that.

And that's why I don't care how many of them are killed. They're killing themselves, so RULE10 them.

Interesting angle.

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by stateofgrace

Actually I am a member of the anti war collation. I matched against the war in Iraq, prior to it of course.

So just as a point of interest, could you give me one reason why I should buy into insane theories about inside jobs, bombs in the towers or any other drivel the you and your ridiculous movement comes out with?

Just one reason will do.

I am not part of any movement.

Quote:

ETA
Have you marched? Have you actually done anything to express your beliefs, anything at all?

Yes

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by applecorped

Do you consider anyone, anywhere, at anytime a terrorist?

Yes. I consider anyone one who uses terror for political ends to be a terrorist.

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by A W Smith

this split thread illustrates that to a hammer. everything is a nail.

I use my hammer to sharpen my scythe and it does a very good job.

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by applecorped

....and?

Many miltary actions are cold-blooded, unjustifiable mass murder.

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

Many miltary actions are cold-blooded, unjustifiable mass murder.

No offense but this isn't news to anyone. What is your point?

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by Radrook

You are either missing the point or ignoring the point. Which is it?

Which point of what?

[A W Smith]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

I use my hammer to sharpen my scythe and it does a very good job.

that explains the dullness. you spread butter with that? I hope you draw it first.

[Princess]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

Many miltary actions are cold-blooded, unjustifiable mass murder.

Here's a completely unbiased, fair, and balanced video on the US's attack on Fallujah.

[stateofgrace]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

I am not part of any movement.



Yes

You didn't give me a reason.

When you are ready list them.

PS . And you marched when, exactly?

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

Yes. I consider anyone one who uses terror for political ends to be a terrorist.

Just political?

[stateofgrace]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

Many miltary actions are cold-blooded, unjustifiable mass murder.

Really?

And you speak through experience do you?

[scarytruth]

How remarkably unremarkable are countless lost civilain lives when they are not American.
Telling, is the official disinterest in a body count from the beginning. Bad for PR. Worse for the agenda.
All of America's victims brought it on themselves - simply ask the officials, (the American ones).
Like the Cambodians. The Vietnamese, (North, especially). The Nicaraguans. The El Salvadorans. The Gualtemalans. The East Timorans.
And now, the Iraqis. Always the Palestinians. Soon, apparently, the Iranians. Again.
A solid salute to the American mindset.
Of course the occupation forces had nothing to do with widespread Iraqi civilian deaths.
It wasn't the American leadership either. It was the campaign of lies. And we all know that words can't hurt someone. We rely on the Iraqis to kill each other - that way, war is pretty.
That way, we Americans love war.
It's all very simple, really. And Americans like that too.

[Jontg]

And again, this has what to do with your theories? War sucks, we all know that. That doesn't make you right.

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by applecorped

No offense but this isn't news to anyone. What is your point?

No offence taken

My point was that US soldiers were tricked, by warmongering 911 rhetoric, into committing cold-blooded murder every bit as wicked as that committed on 911. This same dangerous, warmongering rhetoric was once again deployed by the grandstanding US Republican VP candidate, on September 11th this year, to motivate her son and fellow soldiers to continue killing Iraqis.

The 911 aggression and the following US military aggression are of one and the same evil. The commemoration of the terrible, lethal, miserable consequences of this evil should not be defined by national boundaries. It is a global plague of violence, largely pursued for profit.

The need to remember our dead is a powerful drive easily appropriated to serve unsavoury causes.

The thread from which this one was split was a call, to "debunkers" only, to remember the fallen. The thread's creator and many of the participating posters eagerly used the memory of the 911 victims as a rallying call for "debunkers" and to make digs at "truthers". The second person to post asked:

"Why spend one of the worlds most tragic days debating with the most tragic excuses of life?"

[scarytruth]

Originally Posted by gumboot

I really hate to see nonsense thrown around without being questioned. The total toll of Iraqi civilians killed due to military operations post the March 2003 invasion is not 1.2 million, or even remotely close to it.

And as the data from the Iraqi Body Count demonstrates, the overwhelming majority of "civilian" deaths caused by occupation forces are insurgents, not civilians.

Now, obviously the majority of deaths are not caused by occupation forces at all, but by Iraqis killing other Iraqis. Well sorry, but I refuse to accept that these deaths should be blamed on coalition forces. There is no reason Iraqis should be killing each other just because of the occupation. That's their own decision to make, it's a stupid, senseless, selfish and murderous decision to make, and it's entirely their own fault.

The reason Iraq is a disaster is because of the Iraqis, not the occupation forces. They quite clearly don't give a flying fig about their society, and frankly neither should anyone else. I have no respect for people like that.

And that's why I don't care how many of them are killed. They're killing themselves, so RULE10 them.

How remarkably unremarkable are countless lost civilain lives when they are not American.
Especially when none are your Aunt, parent, child or friend.
Telling, is the official disinterest in a body count from the beginning. Bad for PR. Worse for the agenda.
All of America's victims brought it on themselves - simply ask the officials, (the American ones).
Just like the Cambodians. The Vietnamese, (North, especially). The Nicaraguans. The El Salvadorans. The Gualtemalans. The East Timorans.
And now, the Iraqis. Always the Palestinians. Soon, apparently, the Iranians. Again.
A solid salute to the American mindset.
Of course the occupation forces had nothing to do with widespread Iraqi civilian deaths.
It wasn't the American leadership either. It was the campaign of lies. And we all know that words can't hurt someone. We rely on the Iraqis to kill each other - that way, war is pretty.
That way, we Americans love war.
It's all very simple, really. And we Americans like that too.

[Pardalis]

Only two posts and you're already doing reruns?

[JihadJane]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear

And they had to lie about WMD's to justify going in, and many other nations initially agreed among a variety of other matters. I'm all for discussion, but can we please take this to a new thread and stop derailing this one?

The Coallition of the Willing:

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom and Uzbekistan.

Source: US State Department

details: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2862343.stm

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

Yes. I consider anyone one who uses terror for political ends to be a terrorist.

This statement is probably not as benign as it seems.

From reading your statements here and elsewhere, it appears that you seek to create an equivalence between national armed forces and militias operating outside the boundaries of, among other things, the Geneva Conventions.

Under such assumptions, you might argue that the SEP 11, 2001 attacks are legitimate military actions in the same way the UN-sponsored attack on Iraq was. You would be correct if the planners behind 9/11 were signatories to the same military protocols as the member states of the United Nations.

This is the challenge in the foreseeable future: Obtain the level and symmetrical playing field for all potential combatants. This is not possible unless organisations such as al-Qaeda agree to specific protocols and that the members of the United Nations accept those concessions.

There are militia organisations operating in the USA and other occidental countries who are salivating at the chance for legitimacy. It would be a good idea for them to work with organisations such as al-Qaeda to formulate rules of engagement acceptable to nation-states and assist in the elimination of civilian deaths in the pursuit of mutual political ends. The successes of the IRA might be a template for acceptable rules of engagement such as it seems you are seeking.

[stateofgrace]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

No offence taken

My point was that US soldiers were tricked, by warmongering 911 rhetoric, into committing cold-blooded murder every bit as wicked as that committed on 911. This same dangerous, warmongering rhetoric was once again deployed by the grandstanding US Republican VP candidate, on September 11th this year, to motivate her son and fellow soldiers to continue killing Iraqis.

The 911 aggression and the following US military aggression are of one and the same evil. The commemoration of the terrible, lethal, miserable consequences of this evil should not be defined by national boundaries. It is a global plague of violence, largely pursued for profit.

The need to remember our dead is a powerful drive easily appropriated to serve unsavoury causes.

The thread from which this one was split was a call, to "debunkers" only, to remember the fallen. The thread's creator and many of the participating posters eagerly used the memory of the 911 victims as a rallying call for "debunkers" and to make digs at "truthers". The second person to post asked:

"Why spend one of the worlds most tragic days debating with the most tragic excuses of life?"

Get off your self righteous high horse and stop pretending you are the only person that can see the planets injustices.

Give me one reason that I should buy into insane 911 conspiracies and not base my beliefs on facts.

Just one reason.

Who says everybody agrees with war? Who say anybody agrees with US foreign policy?

You?

[Matteo Martini]

Originally Posted by gumboot

[..] I have no respect for people like that.
[..]

I am just recall this is similar to the sentence from the movie "Schindler`s list" that the sergeant of the Nazis in the concentration lager said to justify the order of execution of a lady who just came to tell him that the plan of the house that the prisoner Jews were building was flawed.

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by JihadJane

The Coallition of the Willing:

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom and Uzbekistan.

Source: US State Department

details: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2862343.stm

This doesn't count the contributions of nations like Canada. We have been patrolling the Persian Gulf, Straits of Hormuz, and the Arabian Sea continuously since Gulf One.