Glorying in someone else's death

[Soubrette]

Another thread has made me want to try and set down my nebulous thoughts on this subject

I want to hear people's thoughts on the attitudes that we have to someone else's death or impending death. Is it right to glory in someone's death? Is it right to say "he (or she) deserves death for what they have done and I am glad they are dying"

Note that I am not saying that some people do not deserve to die (that is another issue). It is the latter part of the sentence that interests me - the emotion of...what? righteous anger? of karma repayed? the satisfaction of irony being played out in real life? or what?

Is it ever right to feel glad that someone else is going to die?

Sou

[Martin]

Quote:

Is it ever right to feel glad that someone else is going to die?

Perhaps only if they are suffering - but I don't think that was really what you were driving at.

[Tricky]

I think it really depends on how horrible the person was. I recall a touching scene from my childhood where a cruel tyrant had just been killed. The people who had lived under the hand of the tyrant were literally dancing in the streets and singing.

"Ding Dong, the Witch is dead!"

[Q-Source]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soubrette

I want to hear people's thoughts on the attitudes that we have to someone else's death or impending death. Is it right to glory in someone's death? Is it right to say "he (or she) deserves death for what they have done and I am glad they are dying"

A "wish" is subjective. It just shows how moral or immoral someone is. Under this circumstances, I could not say that someone deserves a painful death even though that person has caused damage to others.

However... to your question

Quote:

Is it ever right to feel glad that someone else is going to die?

I would say that there are cases where we should feel glad for someone's death: Euthanasia.

Personally, I would feel happy for someone who consciously decided to die in order to reduce their pain. I wish death for people who suffer terrible pain.

I absolutely support this humanitarian practice. But this is another topic.

Q

[Soubrette]

Would you feel glad though Q_Source? And the glad I'm driving at here is more the triumph of the people in the streets the Tricky mentioned?

Or would you feel relieved and if it was a personal friend, sad too at their death?

Tricky - do you think these people were dancing in the street because of the fact they were free or that the tyrant was dead? Say they'd been freed by some other means and then 10 years later the ex-tyrant died - would there have been that same jubilation?

And yes Martin - I wasn't driving at that kind of glad - I meant the other kind

Sou

[Tricky]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soubrette
Tricky - do you think these people were dancing in the street because of the fact they were free or that the tyrant was dead? Say they'd been freed by some other means and then 10 years later the ex-tyrant died - would there have been that same jubilation?

Some of both. Of course there is the joy of freedom, but I think that there is also a natural human desire for revenge (or justice, if you want to use the euphemism). Look how long the Jews pursued Nazi war criminals. Did they want those criminals to suffer? I strongly suspect so. Do I think they were wrong to feel that way? Maybe a little, but I strongly sympathize with their anger.

Let me tell you a little story out of my history.

As a child growing up in Alabama, there was one person who, for me, epitomized evil. That person was George Wallace, the firebrand segregationist governer who stood in the schoolhouse door to prevent blacks from attending white schools. In my mind, this was a person who was causing untold harm by his actions.

In 1972, Wallace was running for president when he was shot by a would-be assasin. The moment when I heard this news is forever frozen in my brain. In all honesty, my very first thoughts were, "I hope he dies". Later, on reflection I was flooded with guilt for my unforgiving wish, however, it must be said that the desire for revenge was the first thing that came to mind.

Perhaps this is what makes us more human; To recognize these thoughts and reject the inhumanity of them.

[Alaric]

Im really not sure what the problem is. Of course we can feel glad that someone died-we were raised on the concept of evil tyrants and hero's.

This is in regards to Pat's cancer correct? How it shocked you to see logically thinking people chanting "ding dong the witch is dead"? Come on, what is going on here. I am damned glad Hitler is dead, Tamerlane, Else Koch(lawd I hope that spelling is correct) and various others as well. Have we become so weak as to not wish the death of these men and women so intent to take everyone elses life?
I cannot even figure out where this question comes from because you leave out; which people, what level of guilt how many casualties and that sort of info. This isnt about Capital punishments virtues(im against it) instead its more about a gentle, naiive view of this world which really doesnt have a place. There are bad people out there and there is no way im going to feel guilty for wishing them gone-permanently.
The question that to me needs answering is whether someone like Pat Roberston, with all his moronic, racist and fascist rhetoric deserves death through cancer. I really dont know. Thats for his god to decide I guess. What I DO know is that the world will be a better place without him-numerous people have died by the power of his words(think gay-bashing) and there really is no way to get to him legally.

Did I wander off on a tangent? Probably. Im really bad that way

[Upchurch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soubrette

Is it ever right to feel glad that someone else is going to die?

Wow. tough one, Sou. My gut reaction is to say, "no, of course not. Don't be silly." However, on reflection, one could note that there are very few absolutes in the real world and what is "right" or "wrong" is hardly one of them.

So, what is a situation (if any) where I, personally, would be glad for someone's death? I'm afraid the answer springs to mind rather quickly. If a person were to threaten the lives of my loved ones consistantly over a period of time and no other forms of deterent worked. In that one situation, at least, I would be glad to have that threat removed beyond a shadow of a doubt. In that case, I'd be glad the person was dead.

[Soubrette]

Tricky - I'm not saying at all that we don't feel these these emotions, I am asking if it's right to say that these emotions are fine to have, they are not something that we should be ashamed of, that we should strive to overcome?

If someone bumps me in the street by accident and it hurts then my initial reaction is one of anger, I strive to overcome this (made easier by the fact that they're usually bigger than me) Should we strive to overcome the glorying in someone's death in the same way?

Alaric - I'm not shocked that people feel that way - I'm disturbed that someone can say (with no trace of understanding what I see as a paradox) "I am glad that person is going to die because he's a horrible person, he is horrible because he is glad when other people die."

I don't deny that some people deserve to die - and that that is a moral stance where people draw their individual lines.

Sou

[MRC_Hans]

Mmmm, would you consider it acceptable if some people rejoyced at the news of Hitler's death?

Suppose somebody had tortured and murdered several of your close relatives, would you be happy to hear about his death?

I know which thread inspired you here. In the case of a kook who has exploited others pretending to be able to heal them, and who is now himself mortally ill from the cancer he has (I assume?) claimed he could heal in others, my own reaction is a mixture of a certain mirth and a normal human compassion for any human who suffers. I dont think the two feelings, although contradictory, are mutually exclusive.

On people dying after suffering, I have had a very close relative die from cancer, and this person also suffered a partly mental break-down, so the whole situation was pretty painful for us all. After the funeral, my feelings were a mixture of sorrow and immense relief.

Hans

[Samus]

Quote:

Originally posted by Alaric
Im really not sure what the problem is. Of course we can feel glad that someone died-we were raised on the concept of evil tyrants and hero's.

Perhaps, but does it make us less moral if we do? I'm not a fan of Pat Robertson by any means, but I wouldn't wish cancer on anyone. If he does pass away, I will be relieved that he can no longer spread his message of hate, but I'd almost feel dirty thinking "good, I'm glad that fat bastard suffered and died." Am I the only one that thinks that is a little harsh? When does that slippery slope end? Do I start feeling happy when everyone I don't like suffers?

[Tricky]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soubrette
Tricky - I'm not saying at all that we don't feel these these emotions, I am asking if it's right to say that these emotions are fine to have, they are not something that we should be ashamed of, that we should strive to overcome?

Well, you know my position. I felt guilt at my evil thoughts. I think that is good.

As an epilogue to my story, I should probably mention that George Wallace did not die. He lived for many years, and with time, I began to realize that he had done more to promote understanding among blacks and whites than anyone else, simply by serving as a bad example. People were so horrified by his extreme stance, that many examined themselves and purged themselves of such beliefs. Also, in later years, he said he had been wrong and apologized for the evil he had done.

Perhaps Gandalf was right to advise Frodo against killing Gollum.

[ebola]

This is a very delicate line to walk. On the one hand, one can shed no tears at the death of an evil man, justifying it by the hope that the world is a better place without him. On the other, we have open gloating about the imminent demise of and the prospect of prolonged suffering by the same evil man.

While I can see the argument for speaking no ill of the dead ( or dying ), it is imperative that we remember the truth about this man's actions; his words, his deeds, and the attitudes which he imparted to millions of people while fleecing them.

I would, however, stop short of open celebration, unless I ( or someone close to me ) had directly suffered at his hands. I feel that it is far better to consign the evil to the dustheap of history by forgetting them, thereby denying them a legacy. Remembering is useful only as a caution to guard against and refuse to tolerate such inhuman acts.

Eric

[Soubrette]

Upchurch - indeed but would you go around saying how glad you were he were dead - he deserved his fate, that you hope he suffers to make up for the suffering that he put your family through?

And if you did - if you gloried in another person's suffering then how are you appreciably different from him who presumably also gloried in your suffering?

I would rejoice that the war was ended MRC - that a person was no longer able to continue to inflict suffering on others. I, personally, would not need for that evil person to suffer. To be unable to commit any more atrocities would be enough - let me repeat - I do not deny that some people deserve to die - where that line is drawn is the subject of another thread though

As to close relatives - if someone killed one of my children I would want to dismember them myself. I would want to exact the same amount of pain from them as they had caused my children. But objectively I know that that will not ease my suffering. It is an understandable human emotion but it reduces me to the same emotions of anger and exhultation that they felt when committing their murder. In the end - I become that which I hate the most. Also note that this is a very different emotion to someone who is going to be put to death in a humane way because they cannot function in society without being a danger to others. These are, for me, two separate arguments.

I agree that compassion and glorying can be present at one and the same time. But should we not rise above one?

dwb - I agree and as I've said before - does it make us as moral as people like Pat Robertson to glory in these emotions?

Sou

(Adding - of course Frodo couldn't have killed Gollum)

[Upchurch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soubrette
Upchurch - indeed but would you go around saying how glad you were he were dead - he deserved his fate, that you hope he suffers to make up for the suffering that he put your family through?

Perhaps privately or to myself to rationalize the conflict of emotions, but I wouldn't go on TV or proclaim it to the world. Nothing is gained in doing that.

Quote:

And if you did - if you gloried in another person's suffering then how are you appreciably different from him who presumably also gloried in your suffering?

Well, pragmatically, one could argue that my glory would be from self-defence, whereas the other person's was from whatever sickness that caused him to threaten my family in the first place. However, from more idealistic POV, absolutely nothing.

[HarryKeogh]

if i could snap my fingers and kill osama bin laden i would. though after his death i wouldnt be dancing in the street and firing a gun in the air. but i would feel warm and fuzzy inside.

[Soubrette]

Quote:

Originally posted by HarryKeogh
if i could snap my fingers and kill osama bin laden i would. though after his death i wouldnt be dancing in the street and firing a gun in the air. but i would feel warm and fuzzy inside.

So how did you feel when you saw those Palestinians doing the same on 9/11? After all they were merely expressing what was on the inside?

Or is it the expressing that is wrong?

Sou

[Q-Source]

Sou,

Quote:

Would you feel glad though Q_Source? And the glad I'm driving at here is more the triumph of the people in the streets the Tricky mentioned?

Yes. I have a different conception of death.

Quote:

Or would you feel relieved and if it was a personal friend, sad too at their death?

I would feel relieved for him not for me.

[Soubrette]

Quote:

Originally posted by Q-Source
[b]Sou,


Yes. I have a different conception of death.
....B]

Details? please

Sou

[Q-Source]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soubrette


Details? please

No

You all are going to make me pieces.

Q

[Soubrette]

Quote:

Originally posted by Q-Source


No

You all are going to make me pieces.

Q

PM me then

Sou

[HarryKeogh]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soubrette


So how did you feel when you saw those Palestinians doing the same on 9/11? After all they were merely expressing what was on the inside?

Or is it the expressing that is wrong?

Sou

if my government assassinated bin laden i would be glad. if my government bombed a palestinian target and killed 3000 palestinian civilians i would be incredibly sad (and disgusted). therefore when i saw those palestinians dancing it up when they found out a bunch of poor bastards died going to work i was sad and disgusted. if they were celebrating that sharon got assassinated i could understand ,though not agree with, their reaction.

[Soubrette]

Quote:

Originally posted by HarryKeogh


if my government assassinated bin laden i would be glad. if my government bombed a palestinian target and killed 3000 palestinian civilians i would be incredibly sad (and disgusted). therefore when i saw those palestinians dancing it up when they found out a bunch of poor bastards died going to work i was sad and disgusted. if they were celebrating that sharon got assassinated i could understand ,though not agree with, their reaction.

ok, thanks

Sou

[Tricky]

Ah, there's the quote I was looking for. Thanks GreyWanderer

Quote:

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

- Gandalf from J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord Of The Rings

[Yahzi]

Yes, there are people so terrible that the world is a better place without them. And making the world a better place is something to be glad about.

There are people so terrible I would personally whack them if it were within my power. But I wouldn't brag about it, because good deeds are supposed to be done in secret.

I suppose you could regret the fact that the person was so terrible they needed to die, but that seems more like a hypothetical problem. I mean, I regret the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but there it is.

[Soubrette]

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahzi
Yes, there are people so terrible that the world is a better place without them. And making the world a better place is something to be glad about.

There are people so terrible I would personally whack them if it were within my power. But I wouldn't brag about it, because good deeds are supposed to be done in secret.

I suppose you could regret the fact that the person was so terrible they needed to die, but that seems more like a hypothetical problem. I mean, I regret the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but there it is.

I don't deny that Yahzi - the question is should you glory in their death? And if you would - then how are you appreciably different to them?

Sou

[Yahzi]

That's a great quote, Tricky. One of my favorites.

Of course, Old G doesn't even flinch when it comes time to put down Balrogs and Goblins.

Just cause you should think about it, and not be eager, doesn't mean you don't do it sometimes.

[Yahzi]

Quote:

And if you would - then how are you appreciably different to them?

I guess I agree that you can't glory in it - like you would in the lunar landings, or cureing cancer, or some other wholly positive thing. I think it can be a positive thing, but I suppose I stop short of the ultimate positive implied by glory.

Or maybe not. If someone had managed to bag Hitler, wouldn't that have been a glorious moment?

As for being different - there is nothing immoral about violence or death. The only immorality is hypocrisy. Shooting a murderer does not make you a murderer, because the conditions and intentions surrounding the two acts of death are entirely different. Context matters.

It's not killing that is immoral - it is causing suffering. If, by killing someone, you lessen the amount of suffering being caused, then that is a good act.

One has to be careful when adding up the suffering, since, as the quote says, not even the wise see all ends.

Note that by this philosophy, I could not torture Hitler, since that would be suffering without any good end. But I could kill hiim to stop his crimes.

Note also that Yahweh does the exact opposite - allows the suffering to continue, and then tries to make up for it by dispensing more suffering.

[gentlehorse]

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahzi
Yes, there are people so terrible that the world is a better place without them. And making the world a better place is something to be glad about.

Agreed. Should we glory in the deaths of such folk? Nope, although I think a sense of relief might be in order. Should we, as a society, take 'em out? If we've exhausted reasonable alternatives, I say yes. How do we know we've exhausted reasonable alternatives? I guess that's the question.

Well, it's a bit of a tribute to the person who died when people glory in their death.

It could be viewed a measure of success when your enemies celebrate your demise. Would you be happy to have the jerks mourn your death?

Heck, if the same jokers danced in the streets as when the space shuttle blew up, or the WTC fell when I died, it would mean they really hated me. What adoration that translates into. People who love death and destruction LOVE to see me die? Fantastic.

Who wouldn't want to piss off ******** so much that they felt compelled to celebrate your death?

It just underlines what losers the merrymakers have been.

[neutrino_cannon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahzi
I mean, I regret the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but there it is.

No, you don't. Increase in entropy is a good thing if your plans for the day include say, digestion.

I understand the sense of regret, nothing is perfect. We would all love it if these sort of questions never had to be asked, just because everyone behaved.

If it is hatred and evil that we hate in another, than it is a sign of hatred in ourselves to wish them dead. Once again, nobody is perfect.

When Hitler killed off millions of people, he almost certainly got some bad people too. There were probably people he killed that other reasonable people were happy to see go, but that doesn't even come close to justifying it. Any wish to see another dead is an imperfection. Nobody's perfect.

Quote:

Originally posted by Soubrette
Another thread has made me want to try and set down my nebulous thoughts on this subject

I want to hear people's thoughts on the attitudes that we have to someone else's death or impending death. Is it right to glory in someone's death? Is it right to say "he (or she) deserves death for what they have done and I am glad they are dying"

Note that I am not saying that some people do not deserve to die (that is another issue). It is the latter part of the sentence that interests me - the emotion of...what? righteous anger? of karma repayed? the satisfaction of irony being played out in real life? or what?

Is it ever right to feel glad that someone else is going to die?

Sou

Hi Sou,

You always have good topics to discuss.

I'm reminded of the dancing and singing that went on when the wicked witch was killed by Dorothy's house falling on her. They were overjoyed that she could no longer scare/hurt/control them. I think we tend to have similar feelings when someone who has commited truly evil acts such as Jeffery Dalhmer is killed. Partially, I believe, it is relief. Partially, I think we have a feeling that "he got what was coming to him".

I think it is okay to feel glad in a situation such as that. One could argue why he was the way he was - perhaps he was abused as a child, perhaps he had a chemical imbalance, perhaps he was simply a hateful, evil individual. But who really knows? In the end, I am glad that he cannot harm anyone else. I don't think I can really believe in the notion of Karma or in divine retribution for evil deeds, mainly because I cannot be sure that there is anything supernatural out there that affects life as we know it.

Several young girls were brutally raped and murdered in my area and I know as a parent, this sent shivers up my spine. The cases went unsolved for a long time. The piece of garbage that did it was caught due to the bravery of a young girl who was to be his next victim. He took his own life while being attacked by a police dog. And I was glad that he died. One less monster in the world.

Now, your exact question, however, was whether it was was ever right to feel glad that someone was going to die. A little different than feeling glad that it happened.

I would say that when the subject is the worst of humankind such as the man I described above, I believe it is right. I am generally skeptical of the American justice system's equity, but in cut and dry cases where a (pardon the term) scumbag such as a Dahlmer or Bundy is to be executed, I feel glad that we eliminate them. They don't deserve their life when they've denied it to the innocent. They don't deserve my hard earned tax dollars to support them for 10, 25, or 50 years in some holding pen while they gripe about their conditions.

Only in situations where it is an open-and-shut case. Where there is doubt, I think we need to be restrained lest we do what happens from time to time - ruin the life of an innocent man.

Sorry for the digression.

Take care,
Sort

[Dymanic]

Is it ever right to feel glad that someone else is going to die?

How much choice does one really have? I mean, if you feel glad, you feel glad -- it's not really something you decide to do, it's more like just something that happens to you. Now maybe if you're glad you're glad. . .

[Soubrette]

OK to wrap this up into some kind of summary

Dynamic - yes I meant should we feel glad that we're glad

Sort - thanks for the compliment

I think then that the only vindication for glorying (being glad that I'm glad) in someone's death is that my motivation is different from theirs.

And I'm only talking about being glorying in the fact that someone is going to suffer and die - I'm not talking about relief that a murder is out of circulation or a wry smile at the irony or whether it is an act of good that some people die or not etc etc.

To me that's like giving yourself a get out of jail free card - I'm a nice person thus it is acceptable for me to have those emotions. You are a total ******* because of those emotions.

I can see the argument more clearly now on why it is acceptable to glory in those emotions - I still find it personally unconvincing although Fade on another thread managed to come up with an interesting idea of the difference between hating people for what they are compared to hating them for what they've done

Thanks to all for the discussion - it was very interesting

Sou

[gnome]

I would say that the most healthy response in a case such as the death of a Hitler, a Bin Laden, a Wicked Witch, is a mixture of good and bad feelings.

Feeling good that the evil works of that person will not continue, and that suffering is relieved, lives saved, evil punished. Feeling bad that a human life was wasted--for the life that person could have led if they had made better choices.

This, as I see it, is how it should be.

As it is in reality... we're only human, and it seems natural to dwell more on the former than the latter.

Also reminds me of something from Douglas Adams... a guy drove through a sheet of water and soaked poor Arthur Dent. Then:

Quote:

At first he felt good about this. Then he feld bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night.

Something like that.

First, considering the evolutionary aspects, it seems clear that the impulse to destroy enemies - those with directly competing interests - would clearly be selected for; in an organism such as a human, the prime way such a behavior plays out is for a positive feeling to be illicited upon such destruction of competition, and the alleviation of a negative feeling at the same time.

Just as well evolutionarily, is the production of a negative feeling so long as a certain direct competitor exists as a competitor; this creates the drive illiminate such competitition, which would alleviate the negative feeling.

Yet another impulse that is evolutionary valuable is that of retribution - it is useful in two ways. In the first way it is a drive to remove someone who's existance or interests are antithetical to one's own as shown in their past actions, and thus the removal of them is to one's own benefit. In the second way it produces a deterant effect - if one is known to fight to the death to avenge even minor infractions of their interests, then obviously one will seek not to do mess with them at all, thus insuring the preservation of both of you.

Thus an irrational, and seemingly self-defeating, impulse to seek retribution at all costs can be evolutionary selected for - that means that many times we, as humans, can desire some enemy to suffer or die even when they are no longer any threat to us whatsoever; we can desire this even if it is in fact counter-productive to our own individual interests!


Note that in all this these reactions and impulses and drives are not neccessarily useful to us as individuals - in fact they can be extremely counter-productive, moving us farther away from attaining our primary goals, such as individual survival and happiness.

Many human impulses are in fact contradictory, such as the impulse to be fair and kind vs the impulses for vengence and domination. The key to remember is that we are Thinking Organisms - we have the ability to evaluate and predict the effects of our actions, and to a certain extent alter our priorities and "overcome" certain impulses (that is, to not permit them to cause one to act in certain ways, not to extinguish them completely), to weight goals against each other, and to choose courses of actions that best permits us to attain what we most desire.

Further, one must note that Feelings and Actions are fundamentally different - it can be 'ok', for instance, to delight in the death of an enemy, but not actively or passively seek to bring about that death. Thus, similarly, one can think about and take pleasure in the consideration of, say, committing adultery, but it can still be wrong to actually commit adultery.

Taking this further, as with the above, having feelings and expressing feelings are very different things; I might hate you to your dieing day, and that may be perfectly moral, but it can still be immoral to express that in certain ways and/or to certain people (like you, for instance).


I do take issue with extending morality into the territory of thoughts or feelings, and am CERTAINLY and vehemently against extending them into other people's thoughts and feelings, however.

[Earthborn]

Quote:

The only immorality is hypocrisy.

Which apperently isn't really the only immorality:

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It's not killing that is immoral - it is causing suffering.

Suppose someone kills another by giving a deadly poison that brings the victim in a pleasant sleep to never wake up. No suffering whatsoever. Wouldn't this be an immoral thing to do?

I don't even understand what you mean when you say that hypocrisy is an immorality. You even seem to contradict it. Hypocrisy is having different standards for different people even though the acts are identical. I would consider this a good example of hypocrisy:

Quote:

Shooting a murderer does not make you a murderer, because the conditions and intentions surrounding the two acts of death are entirely different. Context matters.

I worked for years with the most hateful, ignorant, rude and miserable person I had ever met. He was mean and miserable with every person he ever met. Not one person liked him and no one would go near him. How he kept from being murdered was a mystery to me.

He died suddenly. In his sleep and painlessly from all accounts. When I was told the next day that so and so died, my first remark was "Tough". Well you would have thought I had killed someone's kid. Everyone jumped down my throat for not feeling bad because he died.

What a load of crap. None of them would miss him, he had no family or friends and I didn't cause his death so tough.

I refuse to be made to feel guilty for something I have no control over (that persons death) and I refuse to feign sorrow when it is not there. I was not sorry that guy died. I did not dance on his grave, I did not rejoice in it. I simply refused to offer sympathy that I did not feel.

Death comes to us all. After death there is no judgement. There is nothing. Those that believe someone who is evil in this life will get their punishment in the next are fooling themselves. If you live your life like it is the only life there is then maybe you would be a better person on this planet. If you know the people here are the only ones worth impressing then maybe you would start being less an a-hole and become a better person.

Is it wrong to rejoice in someone else's death. Nope, that is a judgement call that I leave to the individual. If it were Hitler's death the person was rejoicing in then I would join them. If it were my wife's they were rejoicing in I would want to sit with them and find out why they feel that way and see if I could correct an obvious error.