Glucosamine Hydrochloride for dogs - woo or not?

[roger]

Recently I was reading on here how Glucosamine for humans was woo. However, what about for dogs? My dog (in the current avatar) is quite big, and has joint issues. Our old vet prescribed Cosequin DS - glucosamine chondroitin sulfate. At first it seemed to help, then, not so much - he still gimped around after lying down for awhile. We recently moved, and the new vet prescribed a new medicine - Dasuquin, which she said micro studies showed joint repair. This is a combination of Glucosamine hydrochloride, Sodium Chondroitin Sulfate, and Avocado/Soybeen unsaponifiables Powder - sounds like the same as Cosequin to me, with a sprinkle of woo.

I want to help the guy, but not feed him pointless woo? Is this science based or not?

[AgeGap]

Heard on the radio that studies of said drugs found that Chondroitin worked. This was a good few months ago (and in human not canine trials).
I have a bizzare theory how chondroitin works but if anylised would suck harder than a christian metal band.

[Disco]

Personally, I didn't have any success with glucosamine tablets with my previous dog. She had some problems with her vertabrae; I tried it for a few months & didn't notice any real change in her.

With my currents dogs who have joint issues, I use Deramaxx. It definitely works. My male is approx. 160 lbs and went down one day & couldn't get back up (he has severe issues with his back knees.) Wouldn't even attempt to climb any stairs. He was only 5 at the time. It took a week or two of the Deramaxx, but he finally was confident & healthy enough to use the stairs again.

Ask your vet about it.

[roger]

Not to be rude, I know you are earnestly trying to help, but science please, not anecdotes.

This pdf from the manufacturer gives many cites on animal and human studies. I tracked down the NIH one. The NIH abstract differs markedly from the writeup from the company. NIH basically found no help > placebo, except some "exploratory analysis" in patients in moderate to severe pain "may be effective in the subgroup of patients with moderate-to-severe knee pain." Not sure what 'exploratory' implies, but it doesn't sound conclusive, especially considering the 'may'. In contrast, the PDF just says "The study concluded that the combination of glucosamine hydrochloride and chondroitin sulfate is effective in managing moderate to severe knee pain." To me, that reads like an out and out lie ("may be effective" does not mean "is effective"), though I am comparing only the NIH abstract - I haven't read the article itself (no competence in the field). I haven't followed up the animal studies, but I fear the same glossing over and misreporting.

[fls]

[quote=roger;4070430]Not to be rude, I know you are earnestly trying to help, but science please, not anecdotes.

This pdf from the manufacturer gives many cites on animal and human studies. I tracked down the NIH one. The NIH abstract differs markedly from the writeup from the company. NIH basically found no help > placebo, except some "exploratory analysis" in patients in moderate to severe pain "may be effective in the subgroup of patients with moderate-to-severe knee pain." Not sure what 'exploratory' implies, but it doesn't sound conclusive, especially considering the 'may'.[quote]

That means it was found after the fact when they started to analyze the patients by dividing them up into smaller and smaller groups on the basis of some other characteristics. To illustrate this with a ridiculous example, you may find that overall there was no effect, but in those people with blue eyes and blond hair who were born under the sign of aquarius, there was improvement. Any time you start making more and more comparisons and dividing into smaller and smaller groups, you increase your chance of finding two groups that are 'significantly' different. It's like giving yourself 20 chances to roll double sixes, instead of just one.

This is a reasonable idea if you are exploring reasonable possibilities. And the possibility that it is effective in severe disease, but not in mild disease, is reasonable. But until that hypothesis gets tested in a new study, it has to remain a "may".

Quote:

In contrast, the PDF just says "The study concluded that the combination of glucosamine hydrochloride and chondroitin sulfate is effective in managing moderate to severe knee pain." To me, that reads like an out and out lie ("may be effective" does not mean "is effective"), though I am comparing only the NIH abstract - I haven't read the article itself (no competence in the field). I haven't followed up the animal studies, but I fear the same glossing over and misreporting.

Yeah, that's a very, very common technique in the promotion of CAM therapies.

Linda

[Disco]

Sorry Roger, I can't give you science. It's not my field of expertise. That's why I made it clear it was personal experience.

I just thought you'd like to hear from another owner of a big dog.

[casebro]

Glucosamine sounds like one of the AGEs that cause diabetic problems.

But then hydrocarbons are not quite carbohydrates.

But, does glucosamine even make it through the stomach lining? Or does the digestive system break it down into glucose and aminos? In which case, anydamn diet ought to contribute enough aminos and sugars.

And, commercial dog foods are looooaded with animal meal- ground up feet, tails, etc, which ought to be an abundant source of whatever it takes to make new cartilage.

[Rolfe]

Going to the USA very early tomorrow so I haven't time to chat, but whether or not it is woo, it doesn't actually work so far as I know.

Maybe Dogdoctor will come by and fill in the details.

Rolfe.

[roger]

Okay, thanks Rolfe. That is my impression so far.

It is sooo hard to find a good vet.

[roger]

Originally Posted by Disco

Sorry Roger, I can't give you science. It's not my field of expertise. That's why I made it clear it was personal experience.

I just thought you'd like to hear from another owner of a big dog.

Sorry, hope I wasn't too touchy, the vet's comment about it was, when questioned about efficacy "my dog takes it and it works for him!". As you know, many things "work" in this way. I do appreciate your commenting! I just wanted to make sure the thread didn't take off in different direction.

Big dogs rule!

[Tiktaalik]

I posted about this recently in my thread, "Woo, woo, what should I do?" - my dog Nitro has disabling spondylosis and the vet suggested gluc/chon/MSM along with Rimadyl (an NSAID). Many people dismiss glucosamine, but I've been reading some of the studies I can access on-line and in hard-copy and find them contradictory.

First, I think you have to divide these studies into several groups. I note that one of the repliers above cited a human study when you asked about dog studies. Sorry, I have no cites available right here, but I'll look them up again.

1) Human studies. From what I can tell, about half the studies show glucosamine no better than placebo and half show some small affect better than placebo on pain.

2) Horse studies. Glucosamine was first used on horses and there is apparently some research supporting its use in increasing joint space. I haven't found these yet.

3) Dog studies. Very few in the US, but supposedly several in Europe, which I haven't been able to find on line. Reviews of these studies supposedly show that there is an effect on joint space in dogs. That is not pain relief, which can be subjective on the part of the owner, but a physically verifiable effect.

I apologize for not having the links on hand - I will try & find some of them. You might be able to pull up some of them yourself by searching for glucosamine research - dogs - or some such.

I'm currently giving Nitro glucosamine - chondroitin sulfate - MSM. My intention is to continue with regular X-ray series. If it appears that the spaces in his cervical vertebrae are increasing, then I'll continue. If not, I'll stop after a reasonable period of time (say a year).

I wish it was a little more clear - this is one of those gray area things. It's not bad for the dog, but there's no absolute evidenced that it does anything either.

[JJM]

Recent update inre humans:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ucosamine.html

[moopet]

The correct term for dog pseudoscience is clearly "woof".

[Eos of the Eons]

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/09/29/supplements.no.better.placebo.slowing.cartilage.lo ss.knees.osteoarthritis.patients

Quote:

In a two-year multicenter study led by University of Utah doctors, the dietary supplements glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate performed no better than placebo in slowing the rate of cartilage loss in the knees of osteoarthritis patients

[krazyKemist]

Originally Posted by casebro

But, does glucosamine even make it through the stomach lining? Or does the digestive system break it down into glucose and aminos? In which case, anydamn diet ought to contribute enough aminos and sugars.

Glucosamine doesn't have much that can separated upon digestion. Think of a glucose molecule with an amino group (-NH₂) replacing an hydroxy group (-OH) in position 3. A primary amino group detached from this unit would have to be ammonia (NH₃), which is not part of an animal's diet.

There have been some bioavailability studies that seem to confirm that it is well absorbed orally. However, the fact that it increases concentrations of glucosamine in the affected region isn't a guarantee that it does anything useful.

Attached together and NH-acetylated, glucosamine molecules form chitine, the principal constituent of insect and crustacean exosqueleton and glycosaminoglycans, one of the main components of cartilage (which is the rationale behind the use of glucosamine supplements).