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12th October 2009, 10:29 AM
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#2321 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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kitakaze wrote:
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Here's one of mangler's original Poser 7, not neltana's Daz Studio, skeleton overlays. One skeleton from a 3D modelling software package put over top of Patty and Bob...
 Now let's break out the tape measure and get into some numbers so as to destroy Sweaty's fanatic insanity that the skeletons might not be the same and show once again for clear-headed, rational thinking people that Bob's arms are a great match for Patty's... Humerus length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm Radius/ulna length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm Humerus length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm Radius/ulna length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm No failure of the physics engine. No quibble, dither, run, or hide. The arms match, they are the same arms, it is the same skeleton. No insanity, no backflips, no preposterous attempts at denial, no footer dementia. Bob's arm proportions fit nicely with Patty's. Poor little Kaze......sitting on the floor.....happily singing to himself... "I LOVE....I LOVE....I LOVE.....  My little Skeleton game... And....not only thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.....but... I HATE....I HATE....I HATE them... Direct comparisons, Yeah!!" |
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The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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12th October 2009, 01:59 PM
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#2322 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
1) In the image you reposted Bob's right arm is not completely straight but slightly bent so as to show where his elbow is. In the left suit image you can see that Bob's elbow is just about a milimeter above the point where the background foliage changes from green to a lighter yellowish. In the right suit image it is not immediately as clear where Bob's right elbow is but by looking at the underside of his arm, you can see that the elbow is at the point exactly 6 mm below the second yellow line from the top. In both suit images I can see where Bob's left arm is slightly bent, aiding me to discern where the right elbow is...   If there is anyone other than yourself, a footer dementia, desperate belief-addled fanatic, who contends where I see the Bob's elbow in those images, please, by all means, feel free to indicate where they think the elbows are or if they feel that it is unclear. Again, that means normal people, not you. Lurkers, regulars, Bigfoot proponents, anyone. 2) In the images of Bob in a suit, we know for a fact that it is Bob Heironimus in a suit. Luckily for sane people, and unluckily for fanatics such as Sweaty, we have images of Bob from the time back in the day when he was playing Bigfoot with Patterson where his elbow is clearly indicated, aiding us to place his elbow when he is in a suit. Here we go...   Wow, look at Bob's looooong humerus.  I wonder how we would compare seeing how BH and I are nearly the same height (I'm 6'1" or 74 inches/188 cm). My humerus is about 38 cm or 15 inches (shoulder to elbow). I wonder how Bob might compare with my 35.81% of total body height from the ends of my hands to the ground. So oops for you, Patty and Bob's eyes, elbows, and knees do in fact line up just fine. If they do not in the images I have posted, feel free to demonstrate it. 
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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12th October 2009, 02:15 PM
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#2323 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Poor little Kaze......sitting on the floor.....happily singing to himself...
"I LOVE....I LOVE....I LOVE..... My little Skeleton game... And....not only thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.....but... I HATE....I HATE....I HATE them... Direct comparisons, Yeah!!" Yeah, hmmm. Well, you know, that's kind of what happens when footer dementia sets in. *cuckoo sound* You could call it...
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
I'll just happily post the proof again... Poor Sweaty's up $#!% Creek on that one, otherwise known as that river called "denial". |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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12th October 2009, 02:32 PM
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#2324 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Check this out...I modified the Vision Realm Patty skeleton....putting it's arms straight out...and compared them to an average human's skeleton...
 Notice any difference??? (Hint: Look at the Elbows.)
Originally Posted by kitakaze
Of course, in Sweaty World posting avoiding LTC's statement of the obvious is the only way to go. Intellectual honesty is even more elusive for Sweaty than Bigfoot is.
*sigh* Length of Vision Realm pseudo-science art fluff skeleton's humerus on screen: 2cm Illustration of human skeleton's humerus on screen: 2cm Length of Vision Realm pseudo-science art fluff skeleton's radius/ulna on screen: 1.5cm Illustration of human skeleton's radius/ulna on screen: 1.5cm You don't have a tape measure in there do you, Sweaty?...  Notice any similarity??? (Hint: Look at the numbers.)*bzzt* FAIL. Next. And that is exactly why when Sweaty asks for anything, you tell him what he can do with the request. |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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12th October 2009, 03:40 PM
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#2325 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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12th October 2009, 04:02 PM
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#2326 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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kitakaze wrote:
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You seem to have the wrong impression, kittles.....I'm HAPPY that you can't support your claim!!  Anytime anyone else wants to go "brain-dead", after making a claim....go right ahead, and do so!
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The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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12th October 2009, 04:17 PM
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#2327 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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kita-Loser wrote:
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Excellent!!! I'm glad that you have such a keen eye for locating elbows, kittles! Now.......tell us where you think Bob's elbow is located in this image.......it should be EXTREMELY EASY to locate........right???...  And, as soon as you do that, I can put together a FANTASTIC.....SUPER-ACCURATE, KITAKAZE-APPROVED comparison of "Bob-in-a-suit" with Bob!!! Just think of it, GAS GIANT GUY......when we get a good read on the location of Bob's elbow, in that suit there.....we'll be able to match-up, very accurately, Bob's elbow with Bob's elbow...and Bob's eyes with Bob's eyes.....and show that that MUST be Bob in a suit!!! Come on, kittles.....stand-up and show the world your intellectual prowess..... 
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The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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12th October 2009, 04:38 PM
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#2328 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
I'm HAPPY that you can't support your claim!!
Simple question and please do not dodge this - did I support my claim? Yes or no answer followed by whatever explanation you like. 2) Out of priniciple, based on your continuing behaviour, I refused to grant a request of yours. I very recently provided you with exactly the thing you are asking for with no acknowledgement from you. Let's make this simple.Simple question - did I or did I not show that your Vision Realm/skeleton drawing elbow faceplant was invalid and meaningless? Yes or no followed by whatever explanation you like. Here it is again because you may have missed it...
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Check this out...I modified the Vision Realm Patty skeleton....putting it's arms straight out...and compared them to an average human's skeleton...
Notice any difference??? (Hint: Look at the Elbows.)
No, we need to have an exchange. You want me to give you some scaling measurements for your latest faceplant? Sure thing, I'll get it done today and hold on to it. I've already given you lots of measurements to deal with. What you will have to do to have your request granted is just go right ahead and take these three images... Now what I'd like you to do is whip out one of your crayons and first put a big fat dot on Bob's right elbow in the shot of him playing Bigfoot with Patterson. Next I'd like you to go to the Patty and Bob-in-suit comparisons and put big fat dots where you think the right elbows are in each shot. That way we can assess how correct or incorrect you actually think my statement was when I said Patty and Bob's eyes, elbows, and knees line up fine. If you fail to honour your end of the exchange, I will take it as a concession that you in fact know that my statement about Patty and Bob lining up is correct. If you continue to say that I can't support my claims when I have shown exactly how I already have and how I will do so even further to your exact request for measurements, then I it will be taken as a blatant lie and a concession of your own inability to back your own claims. This is how things must work when I deal with a person who I know to be conniving and intellectually dishonest. If you have a problem with that, chastize yourself for always being so weasely in debate. Deal or no deal, Sweaty? Remember, if you live up to your part of the bargain and I do not, you score the biggest point on me ever. If you turn this deal down, you pants yourself and show you cowardice for everyone to see. |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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12th October 2009, 05:06 PM
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#2329 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
 Oh my goodness, Sweaty. You're a beast with these things. I hope you don't handle TV's like you handle irono-meters. But I do appreciate your attempts to goad me. So how participaction would it be if I responded to your latest request with some little Andrew Lloyd Sweaty ditty? Like I just came back with cracked out non sequitur whistles, verse, and all-caps. Would that be some meaningful discussion? Would that be moving things forward? Tell you what, Sweaty. Even though you deserve the trust of no one here, I am going to give you some leeway. I just proposed a deal, withholding my end until you came through, so here I'll ask for another exchange and give you the goods first. I'll be like the Yakuza and you can be the Mafia or whoever you like. I'll kick over my suitcase first. In return I want you to respond to my post proving the validity of one of mangler's Poser 7 overlays with measurements with an actual rebuttal and not the Andrew Lloyd Sweaty runaway garbage. OK, the elbow, yeah? That picture is like trying to find a quarter in the pool with no goggles but I would say that the elbow is located right where that dark band area is near where the lightened area on the torso is. I'd highlight it but that would mean I would have to copy the image and put it in my album here. I have one space left and I'm not wasting it on that. My guess is that the elbow is in that really dark area of the arm right where the torso goes from lighter to dark. I'll be having my actual rebuttal now, please.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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12th October 2009, 05:19 PM
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#2330 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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Fresh out of the oven......Bob's hind end.....fried just a wee bit more...
... And this time.....with the help of kitty-POO's beloved skeleton. I used the measurements of Bob's highly-accurate skeleton.....across the breastbone...and the upper-arms, and transferred them onto Patty's image. Naturally....in keeping with ALL of the other direct comparisons, Bob's smaller body-width, and shorter upper arms cause his elbows to come up way short of where Patty's elbows are located, in the image above. It's not even close. This is a result of the 2 factors highlighted in blue, just above, and illustrated in this skeletal comparison...  The elbows reveal where Patty's shoulder-joints are actually located...due to the fact that Patty's elbows can reach...at the same time....BOTH further away from the body, and further down from the head, than Bob's can. (Note: In this new comparison, I over-sized Bob's image a little....giving his limbs extra length......but it still leaves him well short of Patty's dimensions. In addition to that, I gave Bob even more "extra" length...by giving Patty the same length breastbone as Bob, even though she's being viewed at a greater angle, and her body-width is more 'shortened' by that angle-of-view.) And kitty......keeps playing with his skeleton dolls... |
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__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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12th October 2009, 05:27 PM
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#2331 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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kittles wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
I'm HAPPY that you can't support your claim!!
1) This is an excellent example of Sweaty's footer dementia. Can't support my claim? That's right, kitzo.....you can't. Here is your claim...
Quote:
You can't show where there's an error in that comparison.......can you?? |
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The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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12th October 2009, 05:32 PM
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#2332 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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kitles wrote:
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Out of priniciple, based on your continuing behaviour, I refused
to grant a request of yours.
And I thank you, kitzo, for failing to support your claim.
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The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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12th October 2009, 05:34 PM
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#2333 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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Originally Posted by kitakaze
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Sweaty is great at teaching what not to do when it comes to integrity in debate. Anyone learning? |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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12th October 2009, 05:39 PM
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#2334 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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Have a wonderful evening....kitty-POO.
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__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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12th October 2009, 06:11 PM
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#2335 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Fresh out of the oven......Bob's hind end.....fried just a wee bit more...
...
2) Bob is scaled way too big and the line you placed for his collar bone is way too high on Patty blob. BTW, where's that proof of no shoulder pads I keep asking for. Did you think we wouldn't notice? 3) Both Poser 7 and Daz Studio skeleton fitting Bob fit into to images of Patty from behind just fine. No scribbles, bad scaling, or blurry messes necessary.
Quote:
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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12th October 2009, 06:15 PM
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#2336 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Have a wonderful evening....kitty-POO.
And to think I even kicked you over my suitcase there as a gesture of co-operation. Oh well, Sweaty fears the deal. |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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16th October 2009, 04:03 PM
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#2337 | |||
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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Originally Posted by mangler
Here we see Sweaty saying that Patty's arms are way too long and that for Bob to be in the suit, there must have been a remote controlled device: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...1&postcount=51 Simply measuring the arm bones of mangler's skeletal overlay as I have done show just how wrong Sweaty was...
Originally Posted by kitakaze
Now let's break out the tape measure and get into some numbers so as to destroy Sweaty's fanatic insanity that the skeletons might not be the same and show once again for clear-headed, rational thinking people that Bob's arms are a great match for Patty's... Humerus length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm Radius/ulna length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm Humerus length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm Radius/ulna length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm Next up, in one of the stupidest moments of footer dementia Sweaty scribbles on the knees and ankles of one of the overlay comparisons and declares that the body height has seriously been overscaled. What fool can not discern the difference in height between a person standing erect and walking slouched? Well, Sweaty can't and when pointed out to him, he fancied himself quite brilliant scribbling on the overlay's pelvis... http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...&postcount=242 And thus mangler assisted Sweaty with his physics fail and provided him with this...  Unfortunately, trying to help Sweaty with physics is like giving a meth addict a toothbrush and Sweaty actually asked why Patty's head doesn't bob up and down so much in the film. Sweaty, again, was unable to comprehend the difference between standing fully erect and walking slouched. Moving on, we have Sweaty's oft-repeated, never proven contention that Patty is simply too wide to be Bob in a suit... http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...7&postcount=73 Sweaty has never had any success in trying to refute that Bob might be wearing some form of shoulder pads as one would expect with a modified suit attempting to portray Bigfoot. Sweaty seems to think simply stating as fact that the Patty suit had no padding on the shoulders is something he can slip by people uncontested. Astrophotographer was kind enough to provide us with the following measurements of Patty's height, width, and other proportions which Sweaty has never once even attempted to directly address (he doesn't like numbers, just scribbles)... http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...ostcount=14692 http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...ostcount=13474 Of course, if one didn't have a physics-challenged, footer dementia-addled mind and have a fetish for nonsense scribbling, one might just take a skeleton and simply turn it around and see that there is no width problem at all... Finally, in what I consider to be the very stupidest and most desperate of all of Sweaty's failed attempts to deny the finality of the proof of skeletal overlays, Sweaty's claim that not only does the upper arm bone of mangler's Poser 7 skeleton suddenly become shorter but that neltana's Daz Studio animation does as well through some bizarre anomaly of both of their physics engines. Two physics programs failing in exactly the same unique way, just when you turn an upper arm bone like so, and Sweaty has been saved from acknowledging double-confirmed proof. Sweaty uses the logic that, well crap, computers could just do anything. Who knows what they're doing? The greatest stupidity of all. Here's Sweaty's first post about "shrinking" humerus'... http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...postcount=1057 Mangler soon after provides Sweaty a detailed explanation and animated gif of the physics of what Sweaty is seeing. Again, toothbrushes for meth addicts... http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...postcount=1076 Here's the gif...  But ever in footer dementia denial of reality, Sweaty doesn't accept what manglers helping him with in his physics fail. Sweaty says that to accept that what mangler did was valid, he would have to see a continuous animation of one postion flowing into the other...
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Exactly what Sweaty asked for and exactly what he got, double-confirmed proof. And does Sweaty accept this? Ha! Of course not. The footer dementia is terminal, it will never recede, never go away. Sweaty is so pathetically desperate to deny the truth that he says that Poser 7 and Daz Studio are both tricking him in just the right way. Both are shrinking the humerus'just when you stick them in Bob like that. I have never seen such amazing stupidity and denial in my life. Simply astounding. Sweaty's needed to be saved from the grip of reality tightening on him. Some way to live in denial another day. Both physics engines were lying to him and he need a hero. That hero's name was Slatty McPosty...
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
One final note regarding the skeleton overlays of mangler and neltana: Sweaty thinks the Vision Realm conceptual art of Patty's skeleton is a good fit...  
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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17th October 2009, 07:12 AM
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#2338 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: It's ok, im a limo driver!
Posts: 4,655
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 This proves that Bob's arms are SHORTER than patty's arms, not the same. |
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17th October 2009, 01:10 PM
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#2339 |
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Muse
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 599
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Sorry Kit but the skeleton overlays actually sink your ship.
If the CGI skeleton represents the actual dimensions of the actor inside the suit then the fit should be perfect, not just close. Unless you can demonstrate a level of distortion in the images that would account for the discrepancies, there are no excuses. Seemed to fit Bob H well. Mangler & Neltana did excellent jobs lining up the "human" skeletons, as best they could, but what they did was achieve a "best fit" given Patty's body proportions and the oblique angle of her body w.r.t the camera. But their best fit wasn't so great actually. It should be perfect and MUST be made to fit over EVERY possible frame and every part of the body. This is the ONLY way to build an accurate model of Patty and the only way you can claim the skeleton models represent Patty's true body dimensions.  The left shoulder is way out which cannot be attributed to shoulder pads. The shoulder pads, if present were very subtle. They did not show a subduction of the humerus into the body to extend the arm length. If shoulder pads were present they also included prosthetics that perfectly transitioned the humerus to the shoulder. But then you don't believe they are subducted anyway. Your claim is that the arm length is ok, as is, correct? The body orientation of the skeleton and Patty make it impossible to superimpose them with confidence. This cannot be verified using just a couple of frames. The arms and legs in particular cannot be estimated if Patty's limbs are foreshortened in any way. You can ALWAYS match CGI arms and legs to foreshortened limbs, but you can't claim they actually fit. Here is what I mean. The following simple diagram shows how 2 estimates of the leg can appear to be a perfect fit when viewed from behind. But foreshortening is at work and cannot be resolved with a single image and 1 oblique view. Same applies for the arms.  Accounting for distance from the camera is crucial as well. The closer the subject is to the camera, the more distorted the body is. Body parts that are closer to the camera appear larger. Think porno. Fortunately, Patty was far enough from the camera to minimize this distortion, which is great for this exercise. But how far away is the skeleton supposed to be from the camera? We MUST know this to match the level of distortion. Is the skeleton supposed to be at infinity? This exercise is much trickier than you think. Actually, this skeleton overlay tells us nothing "as is". The only way to use this method to measure anything is to develop a CGI model based on an optimal fit of the skeleton on dozens of frames from the PGF. The Poser/DAZ software handles the inverse kinematics so you can manipulate/adjust the skeleton to achieve an averaged/optimal fit. This is what Vision Realm attempted to do. But all their methodology remained hidden and their results were unverifiable, and essentially invalid. Otherwise, if this exercise was done to photogrammetric standards, and included an error analysis, there should be a research paper at the end of it. This would require submitting a panel of overlaid images which demonstrate an optimal fit of the model. Then the accuracy of the model can be tested and confirmed/refuted. But these skeleton overlays, as is, can't tell you anything, let alone that Bob H fits inside the Patty suit. If anything it indicates that he didn't, IMHO.  Same approx. distance from the camera, same body orientation, scaled to the same foot length (14.5"). Note the arms. |
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17th October 2009, 05:26 PM
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#2340 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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Originally Posted by Óðinn
 There is also the point that the fit to Patty is not just one position. I agree with you that a Poser 7 or Daz Studio skeleton being overlayed to every single frame in which we see Patty would be ideal, but AFAIC, the various overlays more than adequately establish that it's not impossible for BH to have been Patty or a human in general. Footers are telling us that Patty's proportions are inhuman when they are clearly not. I take that fact, along with the fact that BH was there at the time involved with Patterson's Bigfoot escapades...  ...and that Patty looks to be about the same height as Bob (as you have also shown)...   ...and the fact that Bob in a suit is a good match for Patty's proportions... ...and the fact that Roger was creatively talented, if not quite honest...    ...and the fact that he had the means necessary...  ...to allow me to be strongly of the position that BH was in actuality Patty. |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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17th October 2009, 07:55 PM
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#2341 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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Odinn wrote:
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Thanks for the support, Odinn. You're correct.....the "left shoulder is way out".....and that's because the skeletons do not account for Patty's exceptional upper-body width. They're flawed....big time. The only way they can appear to make a "match" out of Bob's and Patty's body dimensions is... 1) For them to be posted as small images, so the differences in the skeleton's lengths are so small, they're hardly noticeable....and... 2) For them to be overlaid over an image of Patty in which her exceptionally-wide upper-body is fore-shortened by the angle-of-view...(seen mostly from the side, rather than from behind). Also.....to date....not one, single real-world physical example has been provided to show that the skeletons...(Fric and Frac)....do, in fact, legitimately match each other. kitakaze's "analysis" is done with the help of "smoke and mirrors"....along with a rather sickly dose of ranting, and babbling. Basically, he takes the 'Chimpanzee' approach to analysing the PG Film.....howl, wave your hands in the air, and throw as much junk up into the air as possible (smoke and mirrors).....and hope that people 'buy it'. On Jref.....that'll work, for the "skeptical" point of view. But, ultimately, it won't hold up. |
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The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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18th October 2009, 03:44 AM
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#2342 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Oh well, neltana already made it rain in Sweaty World...
Originally Posted by neltana
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Those crazy computers will do anything!
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Quote:
Notice the elbows...
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Check this out...I modified the Vision Realm Patty skeleton....putting it's arms straight out...and compared them to an average human's skeleton...
Notice any difference??? (Hint: Look at the Elbows.)
 Wanna banana?
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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18th October 2009, 04:18 AM
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#2343 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
Posts: 9,461
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__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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18th October 2009, 08:56 AM
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#2344 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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Here is an animated-gif that shows the significant difference in the positions of the elbows between an average human skeleton....and Patty's apparent skeleton.
The red circles highlight the location of 3 key measurement points.......all 3 of which...(in Patty's case, at least....not necessarily in Godzilla's, or Barney's )...are non-disguisable by padding....... Notice that these measurement points are independent of any shoulder padding, or hand extensions.....or, any padding whatsoever. 1) The backbone's....the eye's.....and the elbow's actual locations are all equal to their apparent locations. Quick side-trail.....hey, kittles....wanna highlight where you think Patty's....umm, I mean Bob's elbow, is located....inside the "suit"...  Somewhere....in a dark and dreary corner of a room....kitzo is yelling...."Don't bother me, I'm playing with my Fric and Frac dolls!!! WHAAA WHAAAA!!!!" Now...adding blue lines to them, to highlight the differences in both the vertical and the horizontal lengths associated with the elbow's positions...  ....we can see that a difference in certain bone lengths, such as the collar bone, and the upper-arm bone...as is the apparent case, with Patty....places the elbow in a significantly different position, relative to the subject's backbone, and head/eyes. And this difference in position...or, 'reach'...of the elbow, is quantifiable, with measurements which include both a horizontal and a vertical component...(in the case where Patty's arms are being held out away from the body at some intermediate angle.) Now.....all we need are some numbers....to determine if Patty's shoulder-joint's actual location is equal to it's apparent location. The elbows will tell us... ...
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The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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18th October 2009, 09:48 AM
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#2345 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Quote:
Good luck with the faceplant collection. It's a keeper. |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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18th October 2009, 06:32 PM
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#2346 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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Here are some numbers....measuring the lengths of the vertical and horizontal lines....relating to the elbow position....or, 'reach'...
 These measurements of Patty's 'apparent skeleton', of course, don't mean...or prove...that Patty's skeletal structure is actually the same as the skeleton depicts. This is just an example to demonstrate what the measurements of Patty's elbow positions would be expected to be like....if, in fact, her shoulder-joint is located exactly where it appears to be located. Meaning... If Patty is a real Bigfoot, then her extreme dimensions will result in an 'elbow position index', or, 'total figure'...significantly higher than what Bob's, or an average human's, 'elbow position index' would be. That higher total figure, if it's significantly enough higher, will prove that Patty's shoulder joint is located further away from her backbone, than an average human's. If, on the other hand....Patty is nothing more than a 'Bob-in-the-suit'....then her index figure will turn out to be extremely close, or exactly the same, as Bob's figure. The figures would have to be extremely close, since, as I mentioned before...these measurements are not affected by any potential 'suit padding'. They 'bypass it'......very nicely!
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The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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18th October 2009, 06:59 PM
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#2347 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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kitakaze wrote:
Quote:
Yes......you TELL us all kinds of wonderful things, kitzo....but you DEMONSTRATE nothing. Absolutely.........NOTHING. INEPTITUDE sucks.....doesn't it?
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The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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18th October 2009, 07:15 PM
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#2348 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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Something to consider, when looking at the distance that Patty's elbow is away from the side of her body, in this image...is that, if Bob was Patty.....then he had a solid 2 inches of padding on his side...and padding at least an inch thick around his arm.....both of which would have reduced the spacing between his arm and his side...
 Yet, we see quite a large amount of space there....and, at the same time, his elbow is still fairly low...indicating that he doesn't have his arms spread out at very much of an angle. Amazing......simply, amazing...  Now....when looking at this "recreation" of Bob's "former self"....don't forget to subtract a good 3 inches from that gap between his arm and his side....to account for padding.
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The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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19th October 2009, 01:38 AM
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#2349 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Here is a bold claim by Sweaty...
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Originally Posted by kitakaze
Here's one of mangler's original Poser 7, not neltana's Daz Studio, skeleton overlays. One skeleton from a 3D modelling software package put over top of Patty and Bob...
Now let's break out the tape measure and get into some numbers so as to destroy Sweaty's fanatic insanity that the skeletons might not be the same and show once again for clear-headed, rational thinking people that Bob's arms are a great match for Patty's... Humerus length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm Radius/ulna length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm Humerus length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm Radius/ulna length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm Question #2) Did my demonstration show that the Poser 7 skeleton's humerus and radius/ulna are the same length? Yes or no? Next, in response to Vort explaining to Sweaty how an arm is measured here...
Originally Posted by Vortigern99
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Question #3) Did I or did I not demonstrate a serious flaw in the idea that measuring fingertips to feet is a valid measurement? Yes or no.
Quote:
INEPTITUDE sucks.....doesn't it?
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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19th October 2009, 05:13 AM
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#2350 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Somewhere in Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,326
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Originally Posted by sweaty
RayG |
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Tell ya what. I'll hold my tongue as long as you stick to facts. -------------------- Scrutatio Et Quaestio |
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19th October 2009, 07:32 AM
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#2351 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: It's ok, im a limo driver!
Posts: 4,655
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Patty, if a human, has quite unusual proportions. She is a massive walking figure, yet moves quite fluidly, unusual for a man in a costume. Not saying that she is real, but it makes you wonder.
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19th October 2009, 09:55 AM
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#2352 |
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Scholar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 77
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Hey, folks --
Long time, no post. As a former skeptical poster over on BFF, I only have a couple of things to say: 1. Kitakaze? You freaking rock. 2. I'm still flabbergasted at the amount of energy expended over this bloody film. 3. In the years since I posted regularly on BFF, I've changed careers and become a professional 3D Artist and Animator. Observing and duplicating how things move organically is part of how I make my living. As such, I'm here to say that this has only made the PGF look more absurd, not less. That's just my opinion, of course. If the BF community wouldn't listen to an Oscar-winning special effects and makeup artist, they sure as hell won't listen to a CG VFX guy. Regardless, I think the BF Community uses their seemingly endless free time to use the red pencil tool on forty year old images in order to sidestep the core questions: Do we have any real evidence for the existence of an unknown bipedal Great Ape on the face of the entire planet? (And by evidence I'm talking bodies, bones, evidence in the fossil record, unambigious impact on a habitat...you get the idea.) Nope. By contrast, do we have evidence that the individual who shot the movie planned this project (storyboards, design work, heck, even script notes) for financial gain? Oh, and do we have an individual with a reasonably credible claim to being a man in a suit? Yep. That's pretty much that, folks. All the red lines, CG skeletons, and massive-font hyperbole won't change those facts. Avindair ...who is more convinced than ever that the entire BF field is a load of utter nonsense. |
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19th October 2009, 10:10 AM
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#2353 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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Originally Posted by kitakaze
Yes.
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No.
Quote:
No. |
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__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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19th October 2009, 11:08 AM
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#2354 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: It's ok, im a limo driver!
Posts: 4,655
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[quote=Avindair;5220966]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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19th October 2009, 11:08 AM
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#2355 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind the decks in Tokyo, Japan/Victoria, Canada
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Quote:
Humerus length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm Radius/ulna length on Patty skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm Humerus length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.2 cm Radius/ulna length on Heironimus skeletal overlay - 1.1 cm You know, though you apparently don't, other people here do have tape measures and can verify that you are lying now. Why would you do such a thing?
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What's with the fibbing, ol' Sweat? |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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19th October 2009, 11:10 AM
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#2356 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: It's ok, im a limo driver!
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Originally Posted by kitakaze
Kitz argues that the footage is too crappy to extract data from, yet it is ok to extract data to support his agenda? |
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19th October 2009, 11:10 AM
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#2357 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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kitakaze wrote:
Quote:
You're wrong. |
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__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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19th October 2009, 11:11 AM
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#2358 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
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Originally Posted by makaya325
You tell him, Mak!
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The wisdom of Diogenes.... "So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world." tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear." |
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19th October 2009, 11:12 AM
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#2359 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: It's ok, im a limo driver!
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I have to agree with Sweaty here. How can anyone compare a human to a subject in a 42 year old film, and expect to
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19th October 2009, 11:35 AM
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#2360 |
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Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Originally Posted by Avindair
 Thanks, Avindair, and great to see you.
Quote:
*WHAM*  You just nailed it. That's really straight to the heart of it and it doesn't get any more succinct than that. All the endless scribbles of made up gobbley-gook by people who live in constant denial. You have people who live off the scribbles. That is how they maintain that need to be in that La La Land they are in. They talk about Bigfoot being all across the continent and yet, dagnabbit, we just can't seem to catch a break with these beasts. One of the biggest land mammals in North America and with the greatest range and we are SOL for proof or reliable evidence. There's not much you can do for people like Sweaty. He will respond to this with some mess of nonsense on blobs and conceptual art. What he will never do is actually address the major flaws in his belief in Bigfoot or deal with the glaring indicators that point to Patterson having pulled off a hoax. No, I don't want to deal with any of that, thanks. Have you seen my latest comparison? and out come the scribbles. Don't be a stranger, Avindair. I'd love to have someone of your experience around. Maybe you can help Sweaty understand just how absurd it is both Poser 7 and Daz Studios having the humerus' of their respective skeleton models suddenly shortened just when you stick them like that on Patty and Bob. Now if only someone who thought Sweaty made any sense would decloak... 
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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