What the heck is it that I am missing?

Nyarlathotep · 5th October 2008, 05:48 PM

A few minutes ago, an event happened that renewed a question I ask myself every time election season rolls around. It is a strange phenomenon that seems utterly alien to me. The event was a couple of people going door to door to tell me about the wonderful awesomeness that is Obama. The phenomenon is people actually getting excited about a candidate. Excited enough to walk around the neighborhood telling people what a great person your canddate is, excited enough to put signs up all over your lawn telling people to vote for so-and-so. It just seems odd to me.

It's not that I have anything against the democratic process, it's just that I can't see how one can look at the cesspool that is politics and see anyone as being so great that you think them to be the very essence of wonderfulness, barring an almost childlike level of naivete. Even when I like a candidate, my opinion is at best "Meh, he doesn't seem to be a COMPLETELY venal a-hole, I guess I can vote for him without feeling TOO dirty". Yet other people can find a candidate that they not only can vote for without needing to shower afterwards, but whom they actually feel compelled to volunteer for that guys campaign.

So waht am I missing. Am I too picky? Are these people retarded? What is it that is eluding me?

Gord_in_Toronto · 5th October 2008, 05:54 PM

Hope springs eternal in the human breast: Man never is, but always To be Blest.
Alexander Pope

Crowlogic · 5th October 2008, 05:57 PM

The political cesspool exists because "we the people" allow it to exist. At the end of the day virtually everything that "we the people" detest could have been averted. Face it for the most part we're a pack of lazy sods. So why do folks go door to door praising political candidates? For the same reason people give money to the likes of Pastor Hagey.

Nyarlathotep · 5th October 2008, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Hope springs eternal in the human breast: Man never is, but always To be Blest.
Alexander Pope

Not a good answer for me. That's the same reason they keep visiting psychics and such too, despite the fact that psychics and such keep failing. And it still utterly bafffles me what makes them think, "maybe the NEXT one will be real" (or in the case of the politician "maybe the next one WON'T be a corrupt B***ard")

Nyarlathotep · 5th October 2008, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Crowlogic

The political cesspool exists because "we the people" allow it to exist. At the end of the day virtually everything that "we the people" detest could have been averted. Face it for the most part we're a pack of lazy sods. So why do folks go door to door praising political candidates? For the same reason people give money to the likes of Pastor Hagey.

I don't really agree that it is because we allow it to exist. I think it is the nature of the beast. For two reasons. The first is that money and especially power attract the already corrupt like flies to poop. The second is that it corrupts even those who weren't corrupt already.

geni · 5th October 2008, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep

It's not that I have anything against the democratic process, it's just that I can't see how one can look at the cesspool that is politics and see anyone as being so great that you think them to be the very essence of wonderfulness, barring an almost shildleike level of naivete. Even when I like a candidate, my opinion is at best "Meh, he doesn't seem to be a COMPLETELY venal a-hole, I guess I can vote for him without feeling TOO dirty". Yet other people can find a candidate that they not only can vote for without needing to shower afterwards, but whom they actually feel compelled to volunteer for that guys campaign.

So waht am I missing. Am I too picky? Are these people retarded? What is it that is eluding me?

Mostly you have a messed up calibration scale. Given the amount of damage they could do most politicians are no more than mildly incompetant/mildly corrupt. A state in which the majority of people running it are near venal a-holes would tend to have sability issues as well as a suspecious number of dead jounalists. Think russia without everyone being too terrified of putin to do much of their own accord.

Exicitement? Well for some people being exicited about politics is pretty much their hobby. You play D&D other people play polical campaining. Others want to be part of something. Then you have the single issue people who have finaly found a candidate that appears to share their views on the single issue. For others the campains are an outlet. A fair chunck of the left right now after 7 years of Bush really views a viable left wing presidental candidate (heh change you can belive in) as a useful platform for working off the frustrations of the last few years.

CFLarsen · 5th October 2008, 11:35 PM

What to put in its place?

corplinx · 5th October 2008, 11:59 PM

Some of those door-to-doors aren't just brainwashed peons. Obama is collecting huge amounts of money through PACs such as the Service Union.

http://www.seiu.org/

And yes, their home page is a basically an Obama front now. You will be blanketed by these sorts of volunteers through the next month, so get used to it.

Puppycow · 6th October 2008, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Mostly you have a messed up calibration scale. Given the amount of damage they could do most politicians are no more than mildly incompetant/mildly corrupt.

I agree with this. If you think American politics is a cesspool, take a look at the ones in other countries. Mugabe, Kim Jong Il, the Myanmar Junta, etc. Look at what emerged in Iraq (very corrupt).

What system of government would you prefer?

Now, I agree that young or very idealisitc volunteers might be a bit on the naive side and tend to see their candidate in rose-tinted glasses. Such is life. Just as there are people susceptable to the charms of religion, cults, or fortune-tellers, there will also be those who are easily influenced by a charismatic politician. But you don't want to get too jaded or cynical either.

Nyarlathotep · 6th October 2008, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

What to put in its place?

IF you think I am proposing ANYTHING be put in its place then you are missing my point entirely. Look at it this way, I have to scrub my toilet from time to time. It is a gross and and unpleasant job but a necessary one. I don't like it and I grumble about it when it come stime to do it. If someone I knew was dancing around the house with a toilet brush shouting "YIPEE!!! Toilet Scrubbing time!!! Wooo Hoooo!!!", I would think they were insane. If I noticed LOTS of people were doing it, I would wonder if they were insane or if I was.

Election time is a lot like Toilet Scrubbing time. Necessary but distasteful enough that I don't understand people seemingly getting enjoyment out of it.

Nyarlathotep · 6th October 2008, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

But you don't want to get too jaded or cynical either.

That's like being too rich or too thin.

Nyarlathotep · 6th October 2008, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by corplinx

Some of those door-to-doors aren't just brainwashed peons. Obama is collecting huge amounts of money through PACs such as the Service Union.

http://www.seiu.org/

And yes, their home page is a basically an Obama front now. You will be blanketed by these sorts of volunteers through the next month, so get used to it.

Already happening. Just over the weekend I have gotten an Obama volunteer and two people canvassing for candidates for local offices.

geni · 6th October 2008, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep

That's like being too rich or too thin.

It is generaly accepted that it is posible to be to thin.

CFLarsen · 6th October 2008, 09:00 AM

Government as a "necessary evil"?

That's incredibly naïve. We don't live in a world where people are self-sufficient, self-governing, and self-controlling.

Of course, we never have. The rosy days of Utopia-gone-by is, and has always been, but a dream. A fantasy. A make-believe Neverland, fit only for nursery rhymes.

As always, concrete suggestions on how to make government better is preferable to puling about how bad it is. And, as always, much, much harder.

5th October 2008, 05:48 PM	#1
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	What the heck is it that I am missing? A few minutes ago, an event happened that renewed a question I ask myself every time election season rolls around. It is a strange phenomenon that seems utterly alien to me. The event was a couple of people going door to door to tell me about the wonderful awesomeness that is Obama. The phenomenon is people actually getting excited about a candidate. Excited enough to walk around the neighborhood telling people what a great person your canddate is, excited enough to put signs up all over your lawn telling people to vote for so-and-so. It just seems odd to me. It's not that I have anything against the democratic process, it's just that I can't see how one can look at the cesspool that is politics and see anyone as being so great that you think them to be the very essence of wonderfulness, barring an almost childlike level of naivete. Even when I like a candidate, my opinion is at best "Meh, he doesn't seem to be a COMPLETELY venal a-hole, I guess I can vote for him without feeling TOO dirty". Yet other people can find a candidate that they not only can vote for without needing to shower afterwards, but whom they actually feel compelled to volunteer for that guys campaign. So waht am I missing. Am I too picky? Are these people retarded? What is it that is eluding me?
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world? Last edited by Nyarlathotep; 5th October 2008 at 07:16 PM.

5th October 2008, 05:54 PM	#2
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,417	Hope springs eternal in the human breast: Man never is, but always To be Blest. Alexander Pope
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

5th October 2008, 05:57 PM	#3
Crowlogic Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Crows Nest At Large Posts: 1,379	The political cesspool exists because "we the people" allow it to exist. At the end of the day virtually everything that "we the people" detest could have been averted. Face it for the most part we're a pack of lazy sods. So why do folks go door to door praising political candidates? For the same reason people give money to the likes of Pastor Hagey.
	__________________ Words are weapons, sharpen the knives!

5th October 2008, 06:21 PM	#4
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Hope springs eternal in the human breast: Man never is, but always To be Blest. Alexander Pope Not a good answer for me. That's the same reason they keep visiting psychics and such too, despite the fact that psychics and such keep failing. And it still utterly bafffles me what makes them think, "maybe the NEXT one will be real" (or in the case of the politician "maybe the next one WON'T be a corrupt B***ard")
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world? Last edited by Nyarlathotep; 5th October 2008 at 06:24 PM.

5th October 2008, 06:26 PM	#5
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Originally Posted by Crowlogic The political cesspool exists because "we the people" allow it to exist. At the end of the day virtually everything that "we the people" detest could have been averted. Face it for the most part we're a pack of lazy sods. So why do folks go door to door praising political candidates? For the same reason people give money to the likes of Pastor Hagey. I don't really agree that it is because we allow it to exist. I think it is the nature of the beast. For two reasons. The first is that money and especially power attract the already corrupt like flies to poop. The second is that it corrupts even those who weren't corrupt already.
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

5th October 2008, 06:37 PM	#6
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,573	Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep It's not that I have anything against the democratic process, it's just that I can't see how one can look at the cesspool that is politics and see anyone as being so great that you think them to be the very essence of wonderfulness, barring an almost shildleike level of naivete. Even when I like a candidate, my opinion is at best "Meh, he doesn't seem to be a COMPLETELY venal a-hole, I guess I can vote for him without feeling TOO dirty". Yet other people can find a candidate that they not only can vote for without needing to shower afterwards, but whom they actually feel compelled to volunteer for that guys campaign. So waht am I missing. Am I too picky? Are these people retarded? What is it that is eluding me? Mostly you have a messed up calibration scale. Given the amount of damage they could do most politicians are no more than mildly incompetant/mildly corrupt. A state in which the majority of people running it are near venal a-holes would tend to have sability issues as well as a suspecious number of dead jounalists. Think russia without everyone being too terrified of putin to do much of their own accord. Exicitement? Well for some people being exicited about politics is pretty much their hobby. You play D&D other people play polical campaining. Others want to be part of something. Then you have the single issue people who have finaly found a candidate that appears to share their views on the single issue. For others the campains are an outlet. A fair chunck of the left right now after 7 years of Bush really views a viable left wing presidental candidate (heh change you can belive in) as a useful platform for working off the frustrations of the last few years.

5th October 2008, 11:35 PM	#7
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	What to put in its place?
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

5th October 2008, 11:59 PM	#8
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Some of those door-to-doors aren't just brainwashed peons. Obama is collecting huge amounts of money through PACs such as the Service Union. http://www.seiu.org/ And yes, their home page is a basically an Obama front now. You will be blanketed by these sorts of volunteers through the next month, so get used to it.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	__________________ In the tradition of "Stop Silvia!" Stop Hal Bidlack: http://skepticalcommunity.com/forums...hp?f=1&t=28671

6th October 2008, 12:36 AM	#9
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,775	Originally Posted by geni Mostly you have a messed up calibration scale. Given the amount of damage they could do most politicians are no more than mildly incompetant/mildly corrupt. I agree with this. If you think American politics is a cesspool, take a look at the ones in other countries. Mugabe, Kim Jong Il, the Myanmar Junta, etc. Look at what emerged in Iraq (very corrupt). What system of government would you prefer? Now, I agree that young or very idealisitc volunteers might be a bit on the naive side and tend to see their candidate in rose-tinted glasses. Such is life. Just as there are people susceptable to the charms of religion, cults, or fortune-tellers, there will also be those who are easily influenced by a charismatic politician. But you don't want to get too jaded or cynical either.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

6th October 2008, 07:31 AM	#10
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Originally Posted by CFLarsen What to put in its place? IF you think I am proposing ANYTHING be put in its place then you are missing my point entirely. Look at it this way, I have to scrub my toilet from time to time. It is a gross and and unpleasant job but a necessary one. I don't like it and I grumble about it when it come stime to do it. If someone I knew was dancing around the house with a toilet brush shouting "YIPEE!!! Toilet Scrubbing time!!! Wooo Hoooo!!!", I would think they were insane. If I noticed LOTS of people were doing it, I would wonder if they were insane or if I was. Election time is a lot like Toilet Scrubbing time. Necessary but distasteful enough that I don't understand people seemingly getting enjoyment out of it.
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

6th October 2008, 07:34 AM	#11
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Originally Posted by Puppycow But you don't want to get too jaded or cynical either. That's like being too rich or too thin.
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

6th October 2008, 07:36 AM	#12
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Originally Posted by corplinx Some of those door-to-doors aren't just brainwashed peons. Obama is collecting huge amounts of money through PACs such as the Service Union. http://www.seiu.org/ And yes, their home page is a basically an Obama front now. You will be blanketed by these sorts of volunteers through the next month, so get used to it. Already happening. Just over the weekend I have gotten an Obama volunteer and two people canvassing for candidates for local offices.
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

6th October 2008, 08:46 AM	#13
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,573	Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep That's like being too rich or too thin. It is generaly accepted that it is posible to be to thin.

6th October 2008, 09:00 AM	#14
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Government as a "necessary evil"? That's incredibly naïve. We don't live in a world where people are self-sufficient, self-governing, and self-controlling. Of course, we never have. The rosy days of Utopia-gone-by is, and has always been, but a dream. A fantasy. A make-believe Neverland, fit only for nursery rhymes. As always, concrete suggestions on how to make government better is preferable to puling about how bad it is. And, as always, much, much harder.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com