We are all social democrats.

a_unique_person · 18th October 2008, 05:31 AM

As recent events have clearly demonstrated, all Western nations, including the USA, are Democratic Socialist States. Whenever the chips are down, the State is expected to bail out the Capitalist System, and buy up it's assets if necessary.

Oliver · 18th October 2008, 05:39 AM

Socialism for the Rich, Capitalism for everyone else

Taking this into account, you're still a capitalist having to pay for
other people socialist privileges. Of course, Universal Healthcare
might give you some benefits as well in terms of socialism - if it
ever will be implemented.

Thunder · 18th October 2008, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

As recent events have clearly demonstrated, all Western nations, including the USA, are Democratic Socialist States. Whenever the chips are down, the State is expected to bail out the Capitalist System, and buy up it's assets if necessary.

The Great Depression happened precisely because the govt. DID NOt do what the governmant is doing now.

Would you prefer a new Great Depression..with no governmant intervention, or

A large recession..with governmant intervention.

the choice is yours.

Nyarlathotep · 18th October 2008, 12:30 PM

Sadly, it looks like we are going to get a new Great Depression WITH government intervention.

AKA the worst of both worlds

Kthulhut Fhtagn · 18th October 2008, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

As recent events have clearly demonstrated, all Western nations, including the USA, are Democratic Socialist States. Whenever the chips are down, the State is expected to bail out the Capitalist System, and buy up it's assets if necessary.

Hey, the differance between me and the boys in Washington is that I admit it. Now I just have to get them to agree on socialism for everyone.

Ziggurat · 18th October 2008, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

The Great Depression happened precisely because the govt. DID NOt do what the governmant is doing now.

You are correct that they didn't do what we're doing now. But the implication behind this statement (that government stood by and did nothing) is wrong. They did plenty, including the Smoot-Hawley tarrif act. And much of what they did ended up causing a lot of harm and deepening the depression considerably.

Quote:

Would you prefer a new Great Depression..with no governmant intervention,

We've never had one of those. The Great Depression had lots of government intervention.

a_unique_person · 18th October 2008, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

The Great Depression happened precisely because the govt. DID NOt do what the governmant is doing now.

Would you prefer a new Great Depression..with no governmant intervention, or

A large recession..with governmant intervention.

the choice is yours.

I'm not making a judgment of either approach in this topic, just making an observation.

Beerina · 18th October 2008, 04:52 PM

: Even a broken clock is right twice a day -- or twice a century, in this case.

You realize the other long-running political narrative, which has greater predicitive capability, suggests that "Fannie and Freddie", being government constructs to help increase home ownership amongst the more economically questionable people, should not rightly be lain on "capitalism" since it is anything but.

When it was increasing home ownership (I presume it was, I don't know) politicians were quick to claim credit. Indeed, there are lots of humorous videos floating around YouTube the past few weeks of regulators who wanted to regulate them being savaged by Congresscritters.

Capitalism does have some issues to bear, such as banks not caring about the ridiculous interest rates of credit cards "Woo hoo! We've got 'em trapped on high interest and they can't get off!" but that doesn't mean the bank should get bailed out.

Why a business model that orients profits around your customers getting into financial dire straits sounds like a safe, or even legal (it would be fraud) plan, I don't know.

leftysergeant · 24th October 2008, 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

They did plenty, including the Smoot-Hawley tarrif act.

Time to re-instate it. Tax the bejabbers out of those maggots who got a free ride under W and his cap gains tax cuts and used the savings to open factories in slave-labor nations to the hurt of our industrial base.

Bodhi Dharma Zen · 24th October 2008, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Socialism for the Rich, Capitalism for everyone else

Taking this into account, you're still a capitalist having to pay for
other people socialist privileges. Of course, Universal Healthcare
might give you some benefits as well in terms of socialism - if it
ever will be implemented.

Why should it be implemented? It is just the life of the people.

Bodhi Dharma Zen · 24th October 2008, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

As recent events have clearly demonstrated, all Western nations, including the USA, are Democratic Socialist States. Whenever the chips are down, the State is expected to bail out the Capitalist System, and buy up it's assets if necessary.

Agreed. It is the end of an illusion, comparable to the fall of the the USSR. Still, it is dubious that this will be ever admitted

Bodhi Dharma Zen · 24th October 2008, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

The Great Depression happened precisely because the govt. DID NOt do what the governmant is doing now.

Would you prefer a new Great Depression..with no governmant intervention, or

A large recession..with governmant intervention.

the choice is yours.

The point here is the complete failure of an ideology, not if what the government has done is "good" or "bad".

Damien Evans · 27th October 2008, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep

Sadly, it looks like we are going to get a new Great Depression WITH government intervention.

AKA the worst of both worlds

I see absolutely no sign of that happening whatsoever.

Darat · 27th October 2008, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

: Even a broken clock is right twice a day -- or twice a century, in this case.

...snip...

What this would mean is that sometimes a "socialist" approach is the correct approach, sounds like you might be on the road pragmatism!

18th October 2008, 05:31 AM	#1
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,331	We are all social democrats. As recent events have clearly demonstrated, all Western nations, including the USA, are Democratic Socialist States. Whenever the chips are down, the State is expected to bail out the Capitalist System, and buy up it's assets if necessary.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

18th October 2008, 05:39 AM	#2
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Socialism for the Rich, Capitalism for everyone else Taking this into account, you're still a capitalist having to pay for other people socialist privileges. Of course, Universal Healthcare might give you some benefits as well in terms of socialism - if it ever will be implemented.
	__________________

18th October 2008, 12:30 PM	#4
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Sadly, it looks like we are going to get a new Great Depression WITH government intervention. AKA the worst of both worlds
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

18th October 2008, 03:37 PM	#6
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,219	Originally Posted by parky76 The Great Depression happened precisely because the govt. DID NOt do what the governmant is doing now. You are correct that they didn't do what we're doing now. But the implication behind this statement (that government stood by and did nothing) is wrong. They did plenty, including the Smoot-Hawley tarrif act. And much of what they did ended up causing a lot of harm and deepening the depression considerably. Quote: Would you prefer a new Great Depression..with no governmant intervention, We've never had one of those. The Great Depression had lots of government intervention.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

18th October 2008, 04:04 PM	#7
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,331	Originally Posted by parky76 The Great Depression happened precisely because the govt. DID NOt do what the governmant is doing now. Would you prefer a new Great Depression..with no governmant intervention, or A large recession..with governmant intervention. the choice is yours. I'm not making a judgment of either approach in this topic, just making an observation.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

18th October 2008, 11:20 AM	#3
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by a_unique_person As recent events have clearly demonstrated, all Western nations, including the USA, are Democratic Socialist States. Whenever the chips are down, the State is expected to bail out the Capitalist System, and buy up it's assets if necessary. The Great Depression happened precisely because the govt. DID NOt do what the governmant is doing now. Would you prefer a new Great Depression..with no governmant intervention, or A large recession..with governmant intervention. the choice is yours.

18th October 2008, 03:03 PM	#5
Kthulhut Fhtagn Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Somewhere in time and space... Posts: 1,939	Originally Posted by a_unique_person As recent events have clearly demonstrated, all Western nations, including the USA, are Democratic Socialist States. Whenever the chips are down, the State is expected to bail out the Capitalist System, and buy up it's assets if necessary. Hey, the differance between me and the boys in Washington is that I admit it. Now I just have to get them to agree on socialism for everyone.

18th October 2008, 04:52 PM	#8
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	: Even a broken clock is right twice a day -- or twice a century, in this case. You realize the other long-running political narrative, which has greater predicitive capability, suggests that "Fannie and Freddie", being government constructs to help increase home ownership amongst the more economically questionable people, should not rightly be lain on "capitalism" since it is anything but. When it was increasing home ownership (I presume it was, I don't know) politicians were quick to claim credit. Indeed, there are lots of humorous videos floating around YouTube the past few weeks of regulators who wanted to regulate them being savaged by Congresscritters. Capitalism does have some issues to bear, such as banks not caring about the ridiculous interest rates of credit cards "Woo hoo! We've got 'em trapped on high interest and they can't get off!" but that doesn't mean the bank should get bailed out. Why a business model that orients profits *around your customers getting into financial dire straits* sounds like a safe, or even legal (it would be fraud) plan, I don't know.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

24th October 2008, 01:59 AM	#9
leftysergeant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spanaway WA Posts: 18,613	Originally Posted by Ziggurat They did plenty, including the Smoot-Hawley tarrif act. Time to re-instate it. Tax the bejabbers out of those maggots who got a free ride under W and his cap gains tax cuts and used the savings to open factories in slave-labor nations to the hurt of our industrial base.

24th October 2008, 02:13 PM	#10
Bodhi Dharma Zen Advaitin Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Here Posts: 3,809	Originally Posted by Oliver Socialism for the Rich, Capitalism for everyone else Taking this into account, you're still a capitalist having to pay for other people socialist privileges. Of course, Universal Healthcare might give you some benefits as well in terms of socialism - if it ever will be implemented. Why should it be implemented? It is just the life of the people.
	__________________ Im too busy living, why waste my time believing?

24th October 2008, 02:27 PM	#11
Bodhi Dharma Zen Advaitin Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Here Posts: 3,809	Originally Posted by a_unique_person As recent events have clearly demonstrated, all Western nations, including the USA, are Democratic Socialist States. Whenever the chips are down, the State is expected to bail out the Capitalist System, and buy up it's assets if necessary. Agreed. It is the end of an illusion, comparable to the fall of the the USSR. Still, it is dubious that this will be ever admitted
	__________________ Im too busy living, why waste my time believing?

24th October 2008, 02:29 PM	#12
Bodhi Dharma Zen Advaitin Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Here Posts: 3,809	Originally Posted by parky76 The Great Depression happened precisely because the govt. DID NOt do what the governmant is doing now. Would you prefer a new Great Depression..with no governmant intervention, or A large recession..with governmant intervention. the choice is yours. The point here is the complete failure of an ideology, not if what the government has done is "good" or "bad".
	__________________ Im too busy living, why waste my time believing?

27th October 2008, 06:27 AM	#13
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,310	Originally Posted by Nyarlathotep Sadly, it looks like we are going to get a new Great Depression WITH government intervention. AKA the worst of both worlds I see absolutely no sign of that happening whatsoever.
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

27th October 2008, 06:39 AM	#14
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by Beerina : Even a broken clock is right twice a day -- or twice a century, in this case. ...snip... What this would mean is that sometimes a "socialist" approach is the correct approach, sounds like you might be on the road pragmatism!
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008