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Tags wtc , Zdenek Bazant

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Old 26th October 2008, 03:22 PM   #1
Heiwa
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Heiwa's bathroom scale experiment

As JREF posters discussing the WTC1 collapse on the Pizza Box Tower thread don't know the difference between weight/mass (kg) and force (N) and moving bodies, let's do a new experiment in the bathroom in this thread and prove Bazant and NIST wrong, i.e. debunk them.

All you need is a bathroom scale! And a bathroom. And a ladder.

Assume you are in the bathroom and step on the scale and that it announces that your weight it 120 kgs (or what ever that is in US - 20 inches)! OK, you are only 160 cms (what is that - 3 lbs?) tall, so you are a small, fat weight, but who cares. Most Americans are overweight.

Actually the scale does not register your weight but the force (via a magic device inside the scale) you apply to the scale - in this case about 1180 N - and then it transforms this force into weight - 120 kgs. Ok, big belly but otherwise quite fit.

So far so good. Now the experiment. You are going to jump on the scale from 3.7 meters height and see, if your weight changes. Of course your bathroom has a high ceiling. Americans have big houses.

OK, get the ladder into the bathroom and step up to the 3.7 m level. Don't knock your head against the ceiling.

Now jump on the scale!! WOSH, BANG!

What is your weight? Still 120 kgs! The scale records the same weight.

Good!

I hope you survived the experiment, because you just simulated the upper block of WTC1 dropping on the lower structure that pulverized it on 9/11. You evidently didn't pulverize the scale as you survived and checked your weight. 120 kgs. Bathroom is still intact!

Now a lot of people will say that your weight changed, when you impacted the scale, but it was 120 kgs before and after the experiment, so why would it change in between?

Now a lot of people will object and say that the force on the scale was not 1180 N on the scale during the experiment. That is correct. It was 0 N before jump and 1180 N after jump/survival and checking the result. It thus changed from 0 to 1180 N.

But you will object again - it was >1180 N after contacting scale after jump and when you read the result on scale after survival.

OK, but you normally do not measure your weight by jumping from 3.7 meters on your bathroom scale! So whatever you measure then, was not your weight.

WARNING! As you are not very rigid, you may kill yourself, jumping on your bathroom scale. Actually, you will prove that the upper block of WTC1 would be destroyed, when impacting the lower structure (the scale) which is very good. R.I.P.
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:28 PM   #2
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You cant possibly be that stupid. My bathroom scale spikes when I jump on it.
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:31 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
As JREF posters discussing the WTC1 collapse on the Pizza Box Tower thread don't know the difference between weight/mass (kg) and force (N) and moving bodies, let's do a new experiment in the bathroom in this thread and prove Bazant and NIST wrong, i.e. debunk them.

All you need is a bathroom scale! And a bathroom. And a ladder.

Assume you are in the bathroom and step on the scale and that it announces that your weight it 120 kgs (or what ever that is in US - 20 inches)! OK, you are only 160 cms (what is that - 3 lbs?) tall, so you are a small, fat weight, but who cares. Most Americans are overweight.

Actually the scale does not register your weight but the force (via a magic device inside the scale) you apply to the scale - in this case about 1180 N - and then it transforms this force into weight - 120 kgs. Ok, big belly but otherwise quite fit.

So far so good. Now the experiment. You are going to jump on the scale from 3.7 meters height and see, if your weight changes. Of course your bathroom has a high ceiling. Americans have big houses.

OK, get the ladder into the bathroom and step up to the 3.7 m level. Don't knock your head against the ceiling.

Now jump on the scale!! WOSH, BANG!

What is your weight? Still 120 kgs! The scale records the same weight.

Good!

I hope you survived the experiment, because you just simulated the upper block of WTC1 dropping on the lower structure that pulverized it on 9/11. You evidently didn't pulverize the scale as you survived and checked your weight. 120 kgs. Bathroom is still intact!

Now a lot of people will say that your weight changed, when you impacted the scale, but it was 120 kgs before and after the experiment, so why would it change in between?

Now a lot of people will object and say that the force on the scale was not 1180 N on the scale during the experiment. That is correct. It was 0 N before jump and 1180 N after jump/survival and checking the result. It thus changed from 0 to 1180 N.

But you will object again - it was >1180 N after contacting scale after jump and when you read the result on scale after survival.

OK, but you normally do not measure your weight by jumping from 3.7 meters on your bathroom scale! So whatever you measure then, was not your weight.

WARNING! As you are not very rigid, you may kill yourself, jumping on your bathroom scale. Actually, you will prove that the upper block of WTC1 would be destroyed, when impacting the lower structure (the scale) which is very good. R.I.P.
My scale has a tell tale that records max (momentary) load. My 200* lbs maxed out the scale (*350+). (I only jumped from less than one meter)
Now what?

Lbs*
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:34 PM   #4
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He is that stupid.
My digital bathroom scales record - transiently - far more than my actual "weight" when I jump on them.

Last edited by GlennB; 26th October 2008 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:34 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
You cant possibly be that stupid. My bathroom scale spikes when I jump on it.
Congratulations - it took you 6 minutes to (not) carry out the experiment due faulty equipment. Let's hear from somebody really doing the jump with proper scale!
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:35 PM   #6
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:37 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
My scale has a tell tale that records max (momentary) load. My 200* lbs maxed out the scale (*350+). (I only jumped from less than one meter)
Now what?

Lbs*
Pls do a proper experiment - jump from 3.7 m! And keep a sharp eye on the scale.
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:37 PM   #8
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I just read DGM's quote.

Wow. Just wow.

Despite the fact that the act of slowing you to a stop (decelerating you) causes the scale to record a value much higher than your weight, Heiwa still thinks that balancing the forces will result in a change in velocity.


I call Poe.

Nobody can be this confused about the difference between static and dynamic situations.
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:37 PM   #9
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Weight and mass aren't the same thing. Weight is a measurement of force.
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Last edited by Hokulele; 26th October 2008 at 03:40 PM. Reason: Added emphasis.
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:38 PM   #10
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Just for laughs I jumped on my old scale and it broke! It didn't break when I just stepped on it. How is this possible, Heiwa?
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:41 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Congratulations - it took you 6 minutes to (not) carry out the experiment due faulty equipment. Let's hear from somebody really doing the jump with proper scale!

Your ignore list is broken
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:44 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by [X] View Post


I just read DGM's quote.

Wow. Just wow.

Despite the fact that the act of slowing you to a stop (decelerating you) causes the scale to record a value much higher than your weight, Heiwa still thinks that balancing the forces will result in a change in velocity.


I call Poe.

Nobody can be this confused about the difference between static and dynamic situations.
Pls, do the experiment ... and then post comment.

It seems DMG only jumped from one meter and managed to decelerate to zero velocity in order to survive. During deceleration/change/reduction of velocity DMG also managed to check the scale. Quite good. Now, let's do it from 3.7 meters.

But so far so good. Nobody has collapsed any scales or bathroom floors so far! Just carry on!
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:47 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
Your ignore list is broken
You have been on my ignore list for long time, but as you were the first to report on experiment, I thought you had died, so I removed you from the list. I will put you back.
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:49 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Just for laughs I jumped on my old scale and it broke! It didn't break when I just stepped on it. How is this possible, Heiwa?
Overweight? Now, try the 3.7 meter jump.
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:51 PM   #15
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i have a plastic bathroom scale, if i jump on it from 3.7m im fairly certain i will break it, its a 60 dollar scale, so i wont be doing that, although if you paypal me th emoney for a replacement ill gladly jump on it from as high as i feel comfortable, i feel the result will be very significant to the discussion

Quote:
Actually the scale does not register your weight but the force (via a magic device inside the scale) you apply to the scale - in this case about 1180 N - and then it transforms this force into weight - 120 kgs. Ok, big belly but otherwise quite fit.
it was my understanding that 120kg is a mass, and 1180 N is more accurately described as a weight (IE mass times gravity)
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:53 PM   #16
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"As JREF posters discussing the WTC1 collapse on the Pizza Box Tower thread don't know the difference between weight/mass (kg) and force (N) and moving bodies"

This coming from a guy who thinks pizza boxes accurately represents a 110 story building....
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:55 PM   #17
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Scales are meant to hold static loads, as were the twin towers...
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:55 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
You have been on my ignore list for long time, but as you were the first to report on experiment, I thought you had died, so I removed you from the list. I will put you back.
putting anyone on ignore does not make you any less wrong. It does not matter what posts you can see. It matters that everyone else can see us point out your fallacies for what they are.
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:55 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless View Post
"As JREF posters discussing the WTC1 collapse on the Pizza Box Tower thread don't know the difference between weight/mass (kg) and force (N) and moving bodies"

This coming from a guy who thinks pizza boxes accurately represents a 110 story building....

It's self-refuting anyways.

Note how he lists weight with mass, and implies it is different than force.
Newsflash: Weight is a force measurement.


Which is one of the reasons I call Poe.
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:57 PM   #20
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Huh? What? Jumping on a balance proves that 9/11 is an inside job?
What about this: ? and this ?

I thought french troofers were the stupidest guys on Earth, I was wrong.

Last edited by 240-185; 26th October 2008 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Spell that word: I-N-E-R-T-I-A
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:57 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Overweight? Now, try the 3.7 meter jump.
We don't need to jump 3.7 meters. We can just scale up our results. Just like you scaled down using pizza boxes.
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Old 26th October 2008, 03:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Overweight? Now, try the 3.7 meter jump.
Should I report you for wishing me bodily harm? I'm petty sure (no I know) I would break something.
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Old 26th October 2008, 04:05 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by [X] View Post
It's self-refuting anyways.

Note how he lists weight with mass, and implies it is different than force.
Newsflash: Weight is a force measurement.


Which is one of the reasons I call Poe.

Thank you for repeating that. Heiwa has me on ignore.
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Old 26th October 2008, 04:11 PM   #24
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I sure hope Heiwa hasn't propositioned any children to do this "experiment" (or anything else, for that matter). Frankly, this deranged freak shouldn't be allowed within 3.7 meters of a child.
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Old 26th October 2008, 04:26 PM   #25
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Wha wha whaaaaat!?
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Old 26th October 2008, 04:36 PM   #26
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This is the stupidest twoofer experiment of all time.
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Old 26th October 2008, 04:52 PM   #27
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I thought Heiwa's Pizza Box Experiment was unbeatable when it came to the "Idiotic, Crackpot Experiment" department, but he topped himself this time.
And I refuse to beleive he is any kind of Engineer.
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Old 26th October 2008, 04:55 PM   #28
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Umm...i weight about 165 and it jumps to 200 and higher when i land on the scale from 1 inch higher.
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Old 26th October 2008, 04:58 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Pls, do the experiment ... and then post comment.

It seems DMG only jumped from one meter and managed to decelerate to zero velocity in order to survive. During deceleration/change/reduction of velocity DMG also managed to check the scale. Quite good. Now, let's do it from 3.7 meters.

But so far so good. Nobody has collapsed any scales or bathroom floors so far! Just carry on!
dude. i majored in geography. even I remember from high school physics that an object's mass (and therefore force upon impact) increases with speed.

throw a ball at you at 6 mph. no big deal. throw the SAME ball at you at 90 mph?

OUCH!!!!

are the laws of physics different in truther-land then on Earth? it appears so.

Last edited by Thunder; 26th October 2008 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:04 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
dude. i majored in geography. even I remember from high school physics that an object's mass (and therefore force upon impact) increases with speed.

throw a ball at you at 6 mph. no big deal. throw the SAME ball at you at 90 mph?

OUCH!!!!
Just to be clear, an object's mass does not increase with velocity (not unless it is going really, really fast, like approaching the speed of light).

It's momentum and the force that it would apply on another object does increase with velocity however. In this case, the weight (which is a measurement of force) that a scale reads when you jump on it.
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:04 PM   #31
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Is this Stundie of the year? I tell you what Heiwa I'll jump from 3.7m onto some bathroom scales and post it on youtube if you do the following experiment first.

Place a 5kg weight on your head. Then drop the same 5kg weight from a height of 1m (you can do 3.7m if you like) onto your head. Record your results and post on youtube. You shouldn't come to any harm should you? If not, why not?
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
dude. i majored in geography. even I remember from high school physics that an object's mass (and therefore force upon impact) increases with speed.

Well, not quite. Rest mass is a constant, but the momentum will change with speed.

Unless you were talking about relativistic mass...



ETA: Curses, dtugg beat me to it.
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:07 PM   #33
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Is this a ploy to give Richard Gage's cardboard box experiment more credibility?
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:08 PM   #34
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I remember doing this with an old scale when I was a kid, by jumping on the scale, or pressing down on the scale, I wanted to see how high it would go.

An excellent example of what force can do vs the weight are meteorites. They don't have to weight much (Lets say about the same as the towers.) So, Heiwa, in your mind, should Meteors just bounce when they hit the ground, and do no damage at all? That IS what you are implying, correct?
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:08 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
As JREF posters discussing the WTC1 collapse on the Pizza Box Tower thread don't know the difference between weight/mass (kg) and force (N) and moving bodies, let's do a new experiment in the bathroom in this thread and prove Bazant and NIST wrong, i.e. debunk them.
1st problem: weight is not the same as mass. Weight is not measured in kilograms, it is measured in Newtons. First week of high school physics.

Originally Posted by wikipedia
In the physical sciences, weight is a measurement of the gravitational force acting on an object.[1] Near the surface of the Earth, the acceleration due to gravity is approximately constant; this means that an object's weight is roughly proportional to its mass.

In commerce and in many other applications, weight means the same as mass as that term is used in physics.[1][2] In modern scientific usage, however, weight and mass are fundamentally different quantities: mass is an intrinsic property of matter, whereas weight is a force that results from the action of gravity on matter: it measures how strongly gravity pulls on that matter.

However, the recognition of this difference is, historically, a relatively recent development and in many everyday situations the word "weight" continues to be used when "mass" is meant. For example, we say that an object "weighs one kilogram", even though the kilogram is a unit of mass.
Source.

Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
All you need is a bathroom scale! And a bathroom. And a ladder.

Assume you are in the bathroom and step on the scale and that it announces that your weight it 120 kgs (or what ever that is in US - 20 inches)! OK, you are only 160 cms (what is that - 3 lbs?) tall, so you are a small, fat weight, but who cares.
2nd problem: Your units continue to be wrong. First, your weight is not 120 kgs, that is your mass. Second, you are equating kilograms to inches. One is a unit of mass, the other a unit of distance. Then you compare centimeters (a unit of distance) to pounds, (a unit of weight)


Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Most Americans are overweight.
3rd problem: Gross (heh, heh!) generalization.


Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
So far so good. Now the experiment. You are going to jump on the scale from 3.7 meters height and see, if your weight changes. Of course your bathroom has a high ceiling. Americans have big houses.
4th problem: Gross generalization.


Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
OK, get the ladder into the bathroom and step up to the 3.7 m level. Don't knock your head against the ceiling.

Now jump on the scale!! WOSH, BANG!

What is your weight? Still 120 kgs! The scale records the same weight.
5th problem: The experimental evidence does not bear out this prediction. Have you tried it yourself? Obviously not.




Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Now a lot of people will say that your weight changed, when you impacted the scale, but it was 120 kgs before and after the experiment, so why would it change in between?
6th problem: You are undergoing a rapid deceleration when you hit the scale. The more rapid the deceleration, the larger the force required to cause it. When the ground (or scale) puts that force on you, Newton's 3rd law says you return that same force to the ground (scale). That is why your weight changes.

You are falling victim to the classic blunder that is the bane of middle school students everywhere. Your weight certainly changes. It's your mass that remains constant.



Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
OK, but you normally do not measure your weight by jumping from 3.7 meters on your bathroom scale! So whatever you measure then, was not your weight.
7th problem: No, not normally. But you normally aren't falling onto your scale, either. But, in those instances when you are, your weight is more than it normally is, if only for a moment.
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:39 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
As JREF posters discussing the WTC1 collapse on the Pizza Box Tower thread don't know the difference between weight/mass (kg) and force (N) and moving bodies, let's do a new experiment in the bathroom in this thread and prove Bazant and NIST wrong, i.e. debunk them.

All you need is a bathroom scale! And a bathroom. And a ladder...

(snip various )


Okay, this convinces me more than ever that he's trying to pull off a dumb joke. No one can possibly be this benighted.
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:39 PM   #37
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Heiwa, how does a sabot round take out a tank?
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:45 PM   #38
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If this doesn't prove that Heiwa is here to simply be a mental sucubus...then nothing does. His/her mental state is seriously in question. The more you catar to it...the more you contribute to the problem.

My $.02.
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:47 PM   #39
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My 220 pounds pinned my bathroom scale (which can hold 350) when I jumped on it from a standing start. NB: I have about an 18-inch vertical leap.
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:48 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Heiwa, how does a sabot round take out a tank?
Let's stick to the subject.
Obviously, the H guy has not tried this himself...
Make it easy. Drop a 5 pound brick on the scale, after weighing it staticly.
That way you don't break stuff--or not badly...
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