Islam's totally integrated in the UK alright

[mrbaracuda]

From imams engaging in hate speech about the evil "unbelievers", to afternoon women's courses on how to best segregate, how to kill homosexuals and "unbelievers" once Islam rules, to the accompanying propaganda in either video, audio or written form in the bookstores of the showcase mosques of London, to the streets of Liverpool and elsewhere, to Muslim women suing hairdressers, winning and getting paid on the basis of retarded discrimination laws, I think it's fair to say Islam has really integrated itself into British society now!

You know, like this latest case:

Quote:

Somali youth was killed 'in row over alcohol and Islam'

A gang of five men beat a Somali teenager to death because of a row over Muslims drinking alcohol, a court heard today.

Ahmed Mohammed Ibrahim, 17, was repeatedly hit across the head with a samurai sword, baseball bat, machete and metal pole after being chased in Sefton Park, Liverpool, in March this year.

The teenager became embroiled in the fight after accompanying his cousin, Ahmed Mahamoud Ahmed, 16, to a "straightener" – a one-on-one fight – with the alleged killer Ali Mohammed, 19.

Liverpool crown court heard how Mohammed is believed to have accused Ahmed of breaking Muslim rules by drinking alcohol and held him down while a friend hit his head with a bat.

I say they should have used a sharia-court!

[Ralph]

"The three brothers deny wounding with intent".

I'll buy that. When you go at somebody with a machete, a samurai sword, a metal pole, and a baseball bat to the head I think we can safely conclude you're intent isn't to wound.

[Architect]

Teenagers seriously hurting each other on a dubious excuse.

Mods/rockers.

Celtic/Rangers.

Prods/Tims.

Jets/Sharks.

What a surprise. Someone's going to the gaol, either way.

[Ralph]

Originally Posted by Architect

Teenagers seriously hurting each other on a dubious excuse.

Mods/rockers.

Celtic/Rangers.

Prods/Tims.

Jets/Sharks.

What a surprise. Someone's going to the gaol, either way.

Celtics are a baskeball team---Rangers are a hockey team....but as a rule-their fans,even teenagers, don't go at each other with machetes & samurai swords.

[The Fool]

Originally Posted by mrbaracuda

I say they should have used a sharia-court!

many people spent a lot of time and effort in previous threads attempting to explain to you the issues of sharia courts in the UK....and what sort of crime (like this crime) would not be included.... appears to have been time well wasted eh?

[lionking]

Originally Posted by The Fool

many people spent a lot of time and effort in previous threads attempting to explain to you the issues of sharia courts in the UK....and what sort of crime (like this crime) would not be included.... appears to have been time well wasted eh?

I agree with this, but the issue of Islamic violence in the UK is nevertheless worth debating (just as mod/rocker violence was in it's day, Architect).

[gtc]

Originally Posted by Ralph

Celtics are a baskeball team---Rangers are a hockey team....but as a rule-their fans,even teenagers, don't go at each other with machetes & samurai swords.

Perhaps, but they are also football (soccer) teams from Glasgow.

The Rangers are particularly popular among the expat Irish community, so much so that they are nicknamed the O'Rangers and were recently blessed by Pope Benedict.

The Queen's Celtic (to give them their official name), on the other hand, are rumoured to be Prince Philip's favourite team due their staunch Unionism and hatred of anything that isn't Protestant enough for them (which is most everything). They currently play out of Cromwell Stadium while their new stadium at Queen Victoria Park is being completed.

[The Fool]

Originally Posted by lionking

I agree with this, but the issue of Islamic violence in the UK is nevertheless worth debating (just as mod/rocker violence was in it's day, Architect).

Fine, go ahead. I assume you condemn violence as I do. Besides that,what do you want to debate?

[lionking]

Originally Posted by The Fool

Fine, go ahead. I assume you condemn violence as I do. Besides that,what do you want to debate?

Whether the rate of crime depends on a person's ethnicity and/or religion and if so why. In Victoria (according to an editorial in the Herald Sun earlier this year referencing police statistics) Somalis have the highest crime rate, even though many (like Melbourne's "Age") may deny it. This is an issue policy makers cannot ignore.

So is the crime rate higher among muslims in the UK, and if so why?

[SimonD]

Originally Posted by lionking

Whether the rate of crime depends on a person's ethnicity and/or religion and if so why. In Victoria (according to an editorial in the Herald Sun earlier this year referencing police statistics) Somalis have the highest crime rate, even though many (like Melbourne's "Age") may deny it. This is an issue policy makers cannot ignore.

So is the crime rate higher among muslims in the UK, and if so why?

You may wish to view this report by Media watch on the article you have quoted above. Surprising, the media skewed the figures

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/tra...s/s2197803.htm

[lionking]

Originally Posted by SimonD

You may wish to view this report by Media watch on the article you have quoted above. Surprising, the media skewed the figures

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/tra...s/s2197803.htm

Not necessarily. Did you read the Herald Sun's response to Media Watch? I don't think there is any real doubt that the Somali crime rate is a problem in Victoria, but the issue I have raised is that it is quite legitimate to debate ethnicity/religion and crime. I used Somalis in Victoria as an example, but this thread is about the UK.

[SimonD]

Originally Posted by lionking

Not necessarily. Did you read the Herald Sun's response to Media Watch? I don't think there is any real doubt that the Somali crime rate is a problem in Victoria, but the issue I have raised is that it is quite legitimate to debate ethnicity/religion and crime. I used Somalis in Victoria as an example, but this thread is about the UK.

I remember when the Vietnamese first came to Australia, there was a report similar to one about the Somalis. If you go back through time, it’s always the newest immigrants to a country that responsible for the latest crime wave. The Chinese, the Italians, the Irish, everyone seems to get their turn.

While I am sure that there are criminal elements in these groups of people, I also think it’s just the usually media beat-up. It’s easy to sell newspapers by attacking a group of people who have not yet had the chance to establish themselves in the community and thus have less of a voice.

[SimonD]

Originally Posted by lionking

Not necessarily. Did you read the Herald Sun's response to Media Watch? I don't think there is any real doubt that the Somali crime rate is a problem in Victoria, but the issue I have raised is that it is quite legitimate to debate ethnicity/religion and crime. I used Somalis in Victoria as an example, but this thread is about the UK.

I remember when the Vietnamese first came to Australia, there was a report similar to one about the Somalis. If you go back through time, it’s always the newest immigrants to a country that responsible for the latest crime wave. The Chinese, the Italians, the Irish, everyone seems to get their turn.

While I am sure that there are criminal elements in these groups of people, I also think it’s just the usually media beat-up. It’s easy to sell newspapers by attacking a group of people who have not yet had the chance to establish themselves in the community and thus have less of a voice.

[Cavemonster]

Will Eisner created a brilliant graphic novel Dropsie Avenue. The story follows one neighborhood for hundreds of years as every wave of new immigrant is demonized and the clash between establishment and newcomer repeats itself again and again. It starts with violence between Dutch residents of NY and those disgusting foreign English moving in.

Youth violence correlates more strongly with socio economic status than with race religion or country of origin. Hate speech in houses of worship goes across the board. I have heard Christians call for the death of Gays, Jews call for the slaughter of Palestinian Children, and every skin color talking crap about every other.

It has nothing to do with the integration of any particular group.

[Cavemonster]

Also, the hair salon case has not been decided yet, so I'm not sure why you talk about her getting paid.

If you want to show a table of frivolous lawsuits correlated to religion of claimant, then we'd have something to talk about, but a single case doesn't really speak about a whole culture.

[The Fool]

Originally Posted by lionking

Whether the rate of crime depends on a person's ethnicity and/or religion and if so why. In Victoria (according to an editorial in the Herald Sun earlier this year referencing police statistics) Somalis have the highest crime rate, even though many (like Melbourne's "Age") may deny it. This is an issue policy makers cannot ignore.

So is the crime rate higher among muslims in the UK, and if so why?

Off you go then, I'l be interested to see what you find out. If I could offer a suggestion you may want to look at crime rates among social and economic demographics....the good old rich and poor thingy. Lower economic groups have higher crime rates, always have.....now who makes up the majority of the lower economic groupings? That would be interesting to know eh?

To Mrbaracudas disappointment it may not have anything to do with a particular religion at all. So far he has offered a rant and an annecdote to support ......to support.....well, to be honest, I'm not sure what he's trying to support besides his right to rant and post anecdotes. Maybe you could help clarify the point of the thread.

Just as an asside, what would australian policy makers need to know the Somali crime rate for??

[lionking]

The Fool,

Yes it may well be a rich/poor thing, but to deny the possibility of any ethnic or religious nexus is not terribly rational. Others here might have (unlike you) access to research on this.

Why wouldn't policy makers want to know if there is a higher crime rate amongst a particular ethnic group? Why were there Asian Squads in Australian Police Forces until 10 years ago so so? Because Asians, and Vietnamese in particular, had a higher crime rate. This is no longer the case, mainly through integration, and the squads, to my knowledge, no longer exist.

[The Fool]

Originally Posted by lionking

The Fool,

Yes it may well be a rich/poor thing, but to deny the possibility of any ethnic or religious nexus is not terribly rational. Others here might have (unlike you) access to research on this.

I am comfortable in accepting that poor societies have higher levels of crime. That is not controversial. I'll be happy to consider any evidence that a particular religion is a causative factor if and when anyone presents evidence for it.

Quote:

Why wouldn't policy makers want to know if there is a higher crime rate amongst a particular ethnic group? Why were there Asian Squads in Australian Police Forces until 10 years ago so so? Because Asians, and Vietnamese in particular, had a higher crime rate. This is no longer the case, mainly through integration, and the squads, to my knowledge, no longer exist.

Nope, there was no "asian squads" There were a number of "asian gang" squads. Targeted at particular organised crime networks. And its not just a matter of semantics. Calling them "Asian gang" squads is not real bright either. We have learned that abnd changed our ways. Would it be better to describe an anti mafia squad as an "Italian squad"? Not any more.... A lot of our street gangs nowadays are mainly arabs. Would it be approprate to name the current anti street gang squads "Arab squads"?

What religion or colour or ethnicity organised crime groups are is about as relevant as the fact that the mafia is Italian.

All the horse races I watched yesterday were won by Chestnut horses....Hmmmmm...a relevant factor?

[lionking]

Beg to differ about "Asian Squads". I worked in Victoria Police for 7 years, and there was one then. This link supports my recollection.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/t...009/part4.html

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally Posted by gtc

Perhaps, but they are also football (soccer) teams from Glasgow.

The Rangers are particularly popular among the expat Irish community, so much so that they are nicknamed the O'Rangers and were recently blessed by Pope Benedict.

The Queen's Celtic (to give them their official name), on the other hand, are rumoured to be Prince Philip's favourite team due their staunch Unionism and hatred of anything that isn't Protestant enough for them (which is most everything). They currently play out of Cromwell Stadium while their new stadium at Queen Victoria Park is being completed.

You cheeky young scamp!!

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by SimonD

I remember when the Vietnamese first came to Australia, there was a report similar to one about the Somalis. If you go back through time, it’s always the newest immigrants to a country that responsible for the latest crime wave. The Chinese, the Italians, the Irish, everyone seems to get their turn.

While I am sure that there are criminal elements in these groups of people, I also think it’s just the usually media beat-up. It’s easy to sell newspapers by attacking a group of people who have not yet had the chance to establish themselves in the community and thus have less of a voice.

Just curious also about how many of the crimes involve misunderstanding/not knowing differences in the law between original and new country.

[Professor Yaffle]

Regarding the crime rate for Muslims in the UK - I couldn't find that out directly as most of the data I found looked at ethnicity rather than religion. So if they looked at South Asian statistics for example, you wouldn't necessarily know what proportion were Muslim and what propotion Hindu etc. But I did find some data on Bradford where the city's Asian population is predominantly Muslim, and there are deprived communities in both Asian and White areas:

Quote:

A related issue which forms part of the background to these controversies is the extent to which young Asians are involved in crime more generally. In the mid-to-late 1970s, research based at the University of Bradford indicated an unusually low rate of juvenile delinquency among the city’s Asian youth (Batta, McCulloch and Smith, 1975; Mawby, McCulloch and Batta, 1979). The crime rate among young Asians was found to be only half of that among non-Asians, and although a more recent self-report study in the neighbouring town of Keighley suggests that the Asian crime rate has risen somewhat since the extremely low rates found in Bradford twenty years ago, there was still a distinct tendency for young Asians to commit fewer offences than young white people (Webster, 1994).

Comprehensive crime data supplied by West Yorkshire Police offer further confirmation of these impressions, and point to a slightly lower crime rate among Asian males aged under 30 years than among their non-Asian counterparts in Bradford-- 25 per 1,000 of the Asian population in 1994, as against 30 per 1,000 for non-Asians-- with a roughly equal crime rate for the two groups when aged 30 years or more. Taken from the Crime Information System which relates to both persons involved in crime and suspects, there is no evidence that things have changed over the past five years (see Table 2). A similar pattern is reflected in information provided by the West Yorkshire Probation Service, based on an analysis of approximately 2,500 pre-sentence reports written between April 1994 and March 1995. Here it was found that Asian offenders constituted only 9 per cent of the probation workload, as against almost one-fifth of the general population of Bradford. It is interesting to note that the Probation Service database also indicates that drug-related problems (excluding alcohol) were identified among only 12.4 per cent of Asians as against 20.3 per cent of white offenders.

http://www.uclan.ac.uk/facs/health/e...fordbridge.htm

[gtc]

Originally Posted by lionking

Beg to differ about "Asian Squads". I worked in Victoria Police for 7 years, and there was one then. This link supports my recollection.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/t...009/part4.html

NSW has the Asian Crime Squad and the Middle Eastern Organised Crime Squad.

The squads are described as:

Quote:

Investigates organised crime in which persons of Asian background are involved and provides cultural expertise on Asian communities

Quote:

Investigates violent and organised serious criminal activity in south western Sydney by persons of Middle Eastern background

[Nogbad]

Originally Posted by Shaun from Scotland

You cheeky young scamp!!

Made me laugh but I support the sheep fanciers so what do i know

I did like the recent story of the daughter of an exiled extremist Muslim preacher using money her Dad sent for a surgery to get a boob job and is now working in a pole dancing club. No idea how true it is although but I do know that a great many young Muslims are very Westernised and do enjoy a pint and a game of footie and do not worry overly about Halal food.

[The Fool]

Originally Posted by lionking

Beg to differ about "Asian Squads". I worked in Victoria Police for 7 years, and there was one then. This link supports my recollection.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/t...009/part4.html

were you targeting some currently operating crime syndicates that happened to be predominantly asian or were you targeting asians?

[gtc]

Originally Posted by The Fool

were you targeting some currently operating crime syndicates that happened to be predominantly asian or were you targeting asians?

I think the idea is that succesfully dealing with crimes committed within the Asian community requires a different approach which needs dedicated specialists. Its not just the way you target the suspects but also dealing with the victims (I think many if not most victims are themselves Asian) and witnesses and community leaders etc.

Its recognising the cultural (which includes religion) differences that do exist.

[Sunstealer]

Originally Posted by The Fool

Fine, go ahead. I assume you condemn violence as I do. Besides that,what do you want to debate?

Perhaps certain people taking the law as they see it into their own hands when there is no prohibition in Britain. Perhaps the argument that there is a significant portion of the general public that think that Sharia Law is supreme to English (common and criminal) Law and are willing to act upon it. This is not about violence per say, but religious violence amongst people who claim to be members of the same religion. You cannot escape the fact that (interpretation of a) religion (or it's texts) was a motivation for the attack. What we are dealing with here is one group forcing/coercing/bullying others into a way of behaving due to that group's beliefs, but that which are not Law in England and Wales.

The fact of the matter is that a minority Muslims are pursuing violent means to produce a society (perhaps within a society) that conform with their ideas. Witness the art gallery that was attacked recently http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...ks-978554.html.

Why are these people excused the "oh it's just rockers/mods, rangers/celtic" when it is blatant religiously motivated violence against people whom have not broken any law? These people do not like freedom of speech or freedom for people to drink alcohol even though those rights are guaranteed for all by law. Why do they have to resort to violence when they disagree with something?

These incidents are not isolated cases, or indeed few and far between. It shows that Britain does indeed have problems that require solving. The BNP is NOT the answer, but nor is burying our collective heads in the sand and thinking it's just one of those things.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by gtc

I think the idea is that succesfully dealing with crimes committed within the Asian community requires a different approach which needs dedicated specialists. Its not just the way you target the suspects but also dealing with the victims (I think many if not most victims are themselves Asian) and witnesses and community leaders etc.

Its recognising the cultural (which includes religion) differences that do exist.

Spot on. And one of those cultural differences then was that Vietnamese (in particular) came from a relatively corrupt society with low regard for the law and law enforcement authorities (I'm talking about 15 years ago). Hence the higher crime rates, hence the need for an Asian Squad, and now hence the need to be vigilant about Somali immigrants, who also come from a corrupt and lawless society.

The good news is that Vietnamese, as they have largely integrated into Australian society are no longer over represented in crime statistics.

[Damien Evans]

Originally Posted by Ralph

Celtics are a baskeball team---Rangers are a hockey team....but as a rule-their fans,even teenagers, don't go at each other with machetes & samurai swords.

[Damien Evans]

Originally Posted by gtc

Perhaps, but they are also football (soccer) teams from Glasgow.

The Rangers are particularly popular among the expat Irish community, so much so that they are nicknamed the O'Rangers and were recently blessed by Pope Benedict.

The Queen's Celtic (to give them their official name), on the other hand, are rumoured to be Prince Philip's favourite team due their staunch Unionism and hatred of anything that isn't Protestant enough for them (which is most everything). They currently play out of Cromwell Stadium while their new stadium at Queen Victoria Park is being completed.

[The Fool]

Originally Posted by lionking

Spot on. And one of those cultural differences then was that Vietnamese (in particular) came from a relatively corrupt society with low regard for the law and law enforcement authorities (I'm talking about 15 years ago). Hence the higher crime rates, hence the need for an Asian Squad, and now hence the need to be vigilant about Somali immigrants, who also come from a corrupt and lawless society.

The good news is that Vietnamese, as they have largely integrated into Australian society are no longer over represented in crime statistics.

Fortunately Australia has one class of citizen. How would you see Australia being "vigilant about Somali immigrants" ?

is all this just fog and mirrors for a stop or restrict somali immigration position?

Our police force fights crime it reacts to lawlessness...If enough Somalis get together and form Criminal organisations and a special squad is thought usefull to counter that I'm sure it would happen. Are you aware how very few somalis there are coming in here? Good grief a specialist somali team counting all the public service clerical support may well out number the somalis......lets at least let them show some signs of becoming some sort of problem before we throw the police force at them eh?

what do you see your extra "vigilance" of somalis consisting of?


you know the sad thing...and I'm not suggesting this is your motivation in any way but these people are jet black....black as the ace of spades....coal black...I mean BLACK. Sadly, this makes them stand out....especially to your ignorant bogans from Cronulla beach with the southern cross tatooed on thier backs. They are a favourite target of the anti immigration front of the australian racist movement.

[lionking]

Do you or do you not accept that Somalis (and some other immigrants as well) come from a lawless and corrupt society? Or are you going to bury your head in the sand over that too?

Where did I argue for a specialist Somali squad?

Finally, do you now accept that there were (and perhaps still are) Asian squads? Why do you think they were formed? I'll give you a clue, it wasn't for racist reasons.

[The Fool]

Originally Posted by lionking

Do you or do you not accept that Somalis (and some other immigrants as well) come from a lawless and corrupt society? Or are you going to bury your head in the sand over that too?

Where did I argue for a specialist Somali squad?

Here..

"And one of those cultural differences then was that Vietnamese (in particular) came from a relatively corrupt society with low regard for the law and law enforcement authorities (I'm talking about 15 years ago). Hence the higher crime rates, hence the need for an Asian Squad, and now hence the need to be vigilant about Somali immigrants, who also come from a corrupt and lawless society."

If you are not suggesting the police perform this extra "vigilance" again I ask...what form does your "vigilance" take?

Quote:

Finally, do you now accept that there were (and perhaps still are) Asian squads? Why do you think they were formed? I'll give you a clue, it wasn't for racist reasons

No...I do not accept that there are police squads targeting "asians" there are squads targeting particular crime organisations and gangs. Would we call anti mafia squads "Italian squads"?

As for why they were formed...I accept that they were not formed for racist reasons because they were targeting criminal gangs.

lastly....do you accept that somalis are currently a prime target of the anti-immigration wing of the Australian racist movement? Partly because of thier startling blackness and African ethnic clothing making them a highly visible presence above and beyond thier small numbers.

My youngest Daughter attends preschool with a Somali girl. When her Parents pick her up thier highly colourfull traditional clothing, tightly platted hair and ebony black skin causes people to notice, stop and look...I personally find it facinating and charming as do the vast majority of my fellow citizens....unfortunately its also a perfectly setup target for the anti-imigration southern cross tatooed Cronulla beach riot bogans and the racists that feed them.

So far, in my city of 250,000 people I think there have been five or six somali families arrive. They probably get together and as thier numbers increase they may form a small ethnic mutual support society....so far no crime increase that I would notice. Maybe some of the young testosterone laden males will end up in punchups with young testosterone laden bogans....who knows.

What is likely to see them become a problem is if they end up living in poverty......If we really need to be "vigilant" maybe looking out for that would be better.

[lionking]

Evasion, strawman and irrelevancy noted. The Asian squads were formed because asians (particularly Vietnamese) were over-represented in crime statistics (even if you don't like it). Would you rather police have ignored this? There are no anti mafia squads that I am aware of.

It is neither racist nor discriminatory to point out that certain groups in society have a higher rate of offending.

Anyway this is well off topic. Why don't you respond to sunstealer, who I believe is right on the money?

[Cavemonster]

Originally Posted by Sunstealer

The fact of the matter is that a minority Muslims are pursuing violent means to produce a society (perhaps within a society) that conform with their ideas. Witness the art gallery that was attacked recently http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...ks-978554.html.

I hope you meant to say, a minority of Muslims. The Muslim population of the UK is hard to pinpoint, but some sources estimate it at about 1.6million. I can't find any statistics for crime committed by Muslims, and no one else has posted any. All we have to talk about are individual incidents.

Here's something closer to a meaningful statistic.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ts-501389.html

Until someone can link to a source that shows Muslim violence to be disproportionate to the size of their population in the UK, we really don't have anything to talk about.

Even then, we'll need to adjust the data for confounding economic variables.

If you read the article you linked to, you would know that the artist herself was Muslim, an example of the many many Muslims well integrated into UK society.

[Cavemonster]

Since all that's been presented are individual anecdotes, I'll add some.
From the British outlash against it's innocent muslim citizens following the train bombings.

Quote:

In its 26-year history, he added, The Monitoring Group had never witnessed such a level of attacks, either in number or severity. "We have received over 200 per cent more calls since 7 July. I have dealt with 83 emergency calls alone. It is not just abuse, a frightening level is actually attacks.

"We have restaurant owners receving visits from people threatening to burn down the building, a 24-year-old Turkish guy who was senselessly beaten in a park, an Iraqi schoolgirl in Devon who was beaten and an old woman who was attacked by boys outside her house in Ealing, west London."

A school girl and an old woman, beaten. Were they using violence to press their way of life on the country?

[Professor Yaffle]

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

I hope you meant to say, a minority of Muslims. The Muslim population of the UK is hard to pinpoint, but some sources estimate it at about 1.6million. I can't find any statistics for crime committed by Muslims, and no one else has posted any. All we have to talk about are individual incidents.

Here's something closer to a meaningful statistic.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ts-501389.html

Until someone can link to a source that shows Muslim violence to be disproportionate to the size of their population in the UK, we really don't have anything to talk about.

Even then, we'll need to adjust the data for confounding economic variables.

If you read the article you linked to, you would know that the artist herself was Muslim, an example of the many many Muslims well integrated into UK society.

Ahem

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...0&postcount=22

[Cavemonster]

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle

Ahem

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...0&postcount=22

I don't know how I missed that!

So why are we still talking about sunstealer's suggestion that Muslims in any general way are taking violent action against the UK when the best numbers we've seen indicate a lower crime rate?

What we have evidence of are a number of individuals who don't represent their religion.
Holding up their actions is akin to pointing to skinheads as the problem with whites in the UK.

[lionking]

Sunstealer was not talking about the crime rate, but the motivation for the crime in question.

[Professor Yaffle]

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

I don't know how I missed that!

So why are we still talking about sunstealer's suggestion that Muslims in any general way are taking violent action against the UK when the best numbers we've seen indicate a lower crime rate?

What we have evidence of are a number of individuals who don't represent their religion.
Holding up their actions is akin to pointing to skinheads as the problem with whites in the UK.

It seems everyone did. I had to go back and check I had actually posted it and not just thought about it... It is quite sad how often that happens in this section. Someone posts some relevant data and the argument just carries on around it as if it were invisible.