Adam and Eve story dont make sense

if Adam and Eve created the whole human race,it would mean we are all inbred,
(some theists behaviour certainly suggest that,lol)
when A&E had children,then their children must have had sex/children with their children,WTF isn't that incest?
isn't that against the bible/gods rules?

Quote:

Originally posted by JANman
if Adam and Eve created the whole human race,it would mean we are all inbred,
(some theists behaviour certainly suggest that,lol)
when A&E had children,then their children must have had sex/children with their children,WTF isn't that incest?
isn't that against the bible/gods rules?

Hi JANman,

Some Christians will reply to that by mentioning that other humans may have been created and are not mentioned in the Bible.

It leads to the old question about where did the woman come from after Eve since there isn't any discussion about Adam and Eve having any kids beyond Cain, Abel and Seth. Curiouser and curiouser.

It does open up the door for "reading between the lines" when it comes to the Bible. If I can make the assumption that other humans were created, it would seem reasonable that I could expect other things not to be documented.

I've never received anything beyond the stock "god works in mysterious ways" or "not everything is written down" answers.

Take care,
Sort

----
if Adam and Eve created the whole human race,it would mean we are all inbred,
----


If Adam and Even didn't create the whole human race, it still means we are inbred.

[ShottleBop]

Quote:

It leads to the old question about where did the woman come from after Eve since there isn't any discussion about Adam and Eve having any kids beyond Cain, Abel and Seth. Curiouser and curiouser.

Genesis 5:4:

Quote:

And the human's [Adam's] days after his fathering Seth were eight hundred years, and he fathered sons and daughters.

You could at least take the trouble to get your facts straight. (Doesn't challenge the OP; I'm just expressing some minor annoyance.)

[Peskanov]

---
quote:
If Adam and Even didn't create the whole human race, it still means we are inbred.
---


How is that? Can any biologist here explain it, please?

[c4ts]

Where did Mrs. Cain come from?

[Yahzi]

Quote:

Some Christians will reply to that by mentioning that other humans may have been created and are not mentioned in the Bible.

But that can't be, because then we wouldn't all necessarily be contaminated by original sin. If I didn't descend from Adam, I'm off the hook.

But if God allowed inbreeding, then that means the absolute moral laws have changed. Not very absolute, eh?

It's a sticky wicket for people who think the Bible actually makes sense.

Quote:

Originally posted by Peskanov
---
quote:
If Adam and Even didn't create the whole human race, it still means we are inbred.
---


How is that? Can any biologist here explain it, please?

There are two reasons why humanity is inbred.

The first is that the entire non sub-saharan population of the world is descended from one group of coastal specialisers which established themselves on the south coast of Africa about 100-120K years ago. The genome project showed a diversity rating round the world of between 1 and about 6 on their scale, with a rating of 22 of sub-saharan africa. Basically the whole world population apart from those in africa are descended from a single african sub-group.

The second is that there was a population bottleneck caused by the eruption of the super-volcano Toba 71,000 years ago. The eruption in Toba produced 2800 times the amount of material the Mt St Helens did, and reduced the world populatin of humanity to between 5000 and 10,000 individuals.

http://www.jqjacobs.net/anthro/paleo/bottleneck.html

Better hope yellowstone doesn't blow...

http://www.discover.com/dec_issue/breakglobal.html

Quote:

When you look at genes you find that people all over the world are amazingly similar. Some anthropologists believe that this genetic homogeneity is the result of a "population bottleneck"--that at some time in the past our ancestors went through an event that greatly reduced our numbers and thus our genetic variation.

Based on estimates of mutation rates, Penn State geneticist Henry Harpending says the bottleneck happened sometime after modern humans left Africa 100,000 years ago and before a population increase spurred by the advent of better stone tools around 50,000 years ago. Now archeologist Stan Ambrose of the University of Illinois has linked Harpending's theory with geologic evidence to explain what caused the bottleneck--a giant volcanic eruption.

From geologist Michael Rampino of New York University, Ambrose learned that 71,000 years ago Mount Toba in Sumatra blew 800 cubic kilometers of ash into the air--4,000 times as much as Mount St. Helens--the largest volcanic eruption in more than 400 million years. Toba buried most of India under ash and must have darkened skies over a third of the hemisphere for weeks.

Rampino believes that a six-year global volcanic winter ensued, caused by light-reflecting sulfur particles lingering in the atmosphere. Average summer temperatures dropped by 21 degrees at high latitudes, and 75 percent of the Northern Hemisphere's plants may have died. But the worst was yet to come. "Right at the end of those six years, temperatures bottomed out," says Ambrose. A thousand-year ice age began, he says, caused perhaps by an increasing amount of snow that failed to melt over the summer. This snow cover would have reflected more sunlight off Earth's surface, making the world still colder. The effect on humans, who had been enjoying a relatively warm period, must have been devastating. "After 60,000 years of basking," says Ambrose, "they were suddenly thrown into the freezer."

Perhaps only a few thousand people, living in isolated pockets in Africa, Europe, and Asia, survived. When the climate warmed again, about 70,000 years ago, these isolated groups began to grow. Ambrose and Harpending think today's races are but a small sample of the human diversity that once existed. "Imagine the volcanic winter as a dirty, fractured prism," says Ambrose. "It's absorbing some wavelengths, or some genes, and others get through. Since the prism is dirty, a lot of the diversity gets absorbed. No one comes out with all the original colors."

[iain]

There are certainly many people who are ancestors of every human alive today or in the future. I think that one of those (Mitochondrial Eve) can be traced through the genetic line and can be shown to be a common ancestor to all people, but she will not be the only one.

Must go back and re-read Dawkins.

As for the Bible question, most biblical problems can be sorted out if you assume that the Bible tells the truth but not the whole truth : i.e. if you can make up facts which don't contradict what's in the Bible and which get rid of the internal contradictions, then these contradictions do not exist.

This ones an interesting page also :

http://users.aber.ac.uk/rav/lis/toba.htm

[Franko]

You know what I find odd about that story, Elephant… ? Why is it that the Woman is the first entity to choose to Eat the Forbidden fruit of the Great Worldtree of all Knowledge? Why was it the Woman who first choose to perceive the knowledge of Good and Evil (True and False – Logic)?

Once She did that … what chance did Adam have against Her? Of course She manipulated him into eating the fruit afterwards! After She had Logic She was going to manipulate EVERYONE. Who would exist to stop Her?

You know this story is really just a bastardized version of the Pandora’s Box legend, and that version of the story was ripped off from an even earlier Eastern version …

Franko,

I can think of little which is of less relevance to me than the fact that Jewish mythology blames woman for the ills of humanity, or your insistence that God is female.

Yes, the story of the garden of eden is reflected in many other mythologies.

And I disagree that true/false logic has got anything to do with good and evil.

[Franko]

Quote:

Elephant:

And I disagree that true/false logic has got anything to do with good and evil.

Really?

I don't suppose you would care to elaborate?

Quote:

Originally posted by Peskanov
---
quote:
If Adam and Even didn't create the whole human race, it still means we are inbred.
---


How is that? Can any biologist here explain it, please?

Just ignore it. He likes to take someone's point, turn the sentence around, and then pretend it means something.

[Frostbite]

The Adam & Eve story comes from the Sumerian tale of Enki and Ninharsag creating 7 males and 7 females. Enki gave his creation the ability to procreate (knowledge) and he's often depicted as a snake.

I can't believe grown adults take all that stuff literally anyway.

[Franko]

Quote:

I can't believe grown adults take all that stuff literally anyway.

Yeah, it's much easier to just believe that everything appeared and operates by Magic.

[Aoidoi]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
Yeah, it's much easier to just believe that everything appeared and operates by Magic.

LOL! Franko, at least you're good for the occasional laugh.

Not accepting Biblical Creationism = belief in magic

That's funny!

[Franko]

Aoidoi,

hey nitwit, why don't you explain your non-magical theory for how the Universe appeared during the "Big Bang"?

How many Universes (exactly) have you seen non-magically appear out of no where?

[Aoidoi]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
Aoidoi,

hey nitwit, why don't you explain your non-magical theory for how the Universe appeared during the "Big Bang"?

How many Universes (exactly) have you seen non-magically appear out of no where?

<chuckling>
I have no particular theory, nor do I pretend to understand how the Big Bang worked (or not). I simply find it hilarious to ascribe any version other than literal creationism to magical thinking.

Not to mention someone who believes in a Goddess believing in the literal accuracy of the Bible adding a certain zest to the whole concept.

[Franko]

Quote:

Aoidoi: (A-Theist nitwit)
I have no particular theory, nor do I pretend to understand how the Big Bang worked (or not). I simply find it hilarious to ascribe any version other than literal creationism to magical thinking.

So you are claiming that the Universe magically appeared, but if I take your personal religious proclamations on Faith then I would believe that it really isn’t magical because you say that your religion is “the One true faith”?

Quote:

Not to mention someone who believes in a Goddess believing in the literal accuracy of the Bible adding a certain zest to the whole concept.

I guess this is another example of that “A-Theist intellectual honesty” that I hear about in legends and fables? I never claimed that the Bible is inerrant. I am not even a Christian. But don’t let reality get in the way of your delusions.

Just use your magic “free willy” powers and I am sure that everything will be all right …

[thaiboxerken]

It is futile to even try and debate Franko, as he will quickly turn you into a straw-man and keep attacking that the straw. Whether you know it or not, you are a believer in magic, free-will and "TLOP" and if you disagree with him in any way, you are A-theist scum as well.

In short, Franko is just a troll.

[Franko]

It is futile to even try and debate thaifoodkenny, as he is not really here to debate, but only to brag about how great his religion is (A-Theism). Besides, he will quickly turn you into a straw-man and keep attacking that the straw. Whether you know it or not, you are a believer in the “Supernatural" (Determinism, Fate, and “God”), and if you disagree with him in any way, you are a hated Theists nitwit (like a ****** to the KKK).

In short, thaifoodkeeny is just another effete arrogant A-Theist troll here to recruit for the church of Pessimism (A-Theism, kenny’s “one True Faith”).

If he can’t handle Skepticism (of his religion) then he shouldn’t be on a SKEPTIC forum. He should be at a place where no one will question his religious dogma. www.infidels.org

[Aoidoi]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
So you are claiming that the Universe magically appeared, but if I take your personal religious proclamations on Faith then I would believe that it really isn’t magical because you say that your religion is “the One true faith”?

What an odd discussion... I've put forth no argument, expressed only amusement, and yet suddenly I find myself with all sorts of beliefs that I don't actually have. An interesting occurance.

Here, let me actually state something so that you have some concept of what I actually believe (not, amusingly enough, that it's likely to stop you if I don't).

"There is no one true path." Mercedes Lackey (Heralds of Valdemar series)

Now that is something I actually believe (though not religiously ).

Quote:

I guess this is another example of that “A-Theist intellectual honesty” that I hear about in legends and fables?

I stated that I don't know the origin of the universe. Which is quite honest. I tend to believe more in the big bang than the Bible as the Bible resembles other creation myths which seem to have equal validity, but for all I know tomorrow somebody will determine the big bang is just as wrong. I don't let it worry me a whole lot, I tend to let bygones be bygones.

Quote:

I never claimed that the Bible is inerrant. I am not even a Christian. But don’t let reality get in the way of your delusions.

<chuckling> In the proper frame of mind you are quite entertaining.

Quote:

Just use your magic “free willy” powers and I am sure that everything will be all right …

<looking around> Well, everything looks pretty good at the moment. I guess that demonstrates my amazing powers.

[Aoidoi]

Quote:

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
It is futile to even try and debate Franko, as he will quickly turn you into a straw-man and keep attacking that the straw. Whether you know it or not, you are a believer in magic, free-will and "TLOP" and if you disagree with him in any way, you are A-theist scum as well.

In short, Franko is just a troll.

Perhaps, but sometimes one just has to sit back and enjoy the show. He is the only troll I feed as he's the only one who remotely interests me (muscleman is a hopeless bore, for example).

Look at it this way, if one looks long enough at the apparently insane one can learn certain things. At the very least, I've learned several ways not to present an argument.

[Franko]

Quote:

Look at it this way, if one looks long enough at the apparently insane one can learn certain things. At the very least, I've learned several ways not to present an argument.

What is your argument for the existence of "free will" A-Theist?

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

How can YOU be more conscious then TLOP if TLOP is controlling YOU? Isn't that like claiming your CAR controls YOU when you are driving?

[Renfield]

Quote:

Originally posted by Peskanov
---
quote:
If Adam and Even didn't create the whole human race, it still means we are inbred.
---


How is that? Can any biologist here explain it, please?

While your at it, can you tell me whether A & E had belly buttons? My old catichism teachers never could.

[Aoidoi]

Very nice Franko, what does it have to do with Adam and Eve?

Edit: Oh, and I've also heard Christians argue that people were perfect back in the day, so inbreeding was ok. I mean, they used to live for 600 years back then, look at our weak 70 odd years now!

[thaiboxerken]

Quote:

Originally posted by Aoidoi
Perhaps, but sometimes one just has to sit back and enjoy the show. He is the only troll I feed as he's the only one who remotely interests me (muscleman is a hopeless bore, for example).

Look at it this way, if one looks long enough at the apparently insane one can learn certain things. At the very least, I've learned several ways not to present an argument.

Yep, but just don't be surprised when he assigns you your beliefs and arguements.

I mean, look at the huge straw-man he built of me in just one post.

Franko wrote:

----
If he can’t handle Skepticism (of his religion) then he shouldn’t be on a SKEPTIC forum. He should be at a place where no one will question his religious dogma. www.infidels.org
----


Franko, Thaiboxerken already is there.

Nickname: thaiboxerken
Forum member since: January 19, 2002

Do a search for his posts. He introduces himself as a 'skeptical martial artist', and his posts are mostly bit*hing about ch'i, falun gong, etc.

He hasn't posted for a while.


In his introductory post:

"I have yet to debunk a "chi" master, but I hope to sometime soon."


A skeptic would say: "I'd like to investigate ch'i related claims, and see if they have any weight.", but Ken has already made up his mind.

[Franko]

Quote:

I mean, look at the huge straw-man he built of me in just one post.

hehehe ... I guess that explains why you don't dare debate me chickensh*t. The last time you got your clock cleaned, and you been hiding from me ever since.

That's okay kenny, I wouldn't want to damage your fragile little mind ...

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko


Really?

I don't suppose you would care to elaborate?

True/False logic is just a means of evaluating the self-consistency of any specified system. Good and Evil are subjective judgements. There is no absolute definition of good and evil. I see no connection between the concepts of good and evil and true/false logic.

Quote:

Originally posted by ShottleBop


Genesis 5:4:

You could at least take the trouble to get your facts straight. (Doesn't challenge the OP; I'm just expressing some minor annoyance.)

Fair enough given my original statement, but what I really meant was that there was no origin listed for Cain's wife or Seth's wife. It seems interesting to me that of the multitude of "sons and daughters" both Adam and Seth supposedly had, most of them amounted to nothing worth mentioning in the Bible. You've got Cain, the bad boy. Abel, the victim. Seth, the one they talk about and then at least a daughter or two (from the verse you provided) and none of them are really mentioned... strange.

Mrs. Cain is an issue for sure.

Thanks for the clarification on the verse.

Cheers,
Sort

[Valmorian]

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
In his introductory post:

"I have yet to debunk a "chi" master, but I hope to sometime soon."


A skeptic would say: "I'd like to investigate ch'i related claims, and see if they have any weight.", but Ken has already made up his mind. [/b]

Perhaps he already has investigated 'Chi' and found it lacking.

Quote:

Originally posted by JANman
if Adam and Eve created the whole human race,it would mean we are all inbred,
(some theists behaviour certainly suggest that,lol)
when A&E had children,then their children must have had sex/children with their children,WTF isn't that incest?
isn't that against the bible/gods rules?

It's worse than that adam is made in gods form(man), Eve and Cain are not so what form are they then? Where did all the other women and men come from to marry Cain and Able etc?

[Girl 6]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
It is futile to even try and debate thaifoodkenny, as he is not really here to debate, but only to brag about how great his religion is (A-Theism). Besides, he will quickly turn you into a straw-man and keep attacking that the straw. Whether you know it or not, you are a believer in the “Supernatural" (Determinism, Fate, and “God”), and if you disagree with him in any way, you are a hated Theists nitwit (like a ****** to the KKK).

In short, thaifoodkeeny is just another effete arrogant A-Theist troll here to recruit for the church of Pessimism (A-Theism, kenny’s “one True Faith”).

If he can’t handle Skepticism (of his religion) then he shouldn’t be on a SKEPTIC forum. He should be at a place where no one will question his religious dogma. www.infidels.org

Franko...

Is there some reason you can't use a person's proper alias name in your responses?

G6

[thaiboxerken]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko


hehehe ... I guess that explains why you don't dare debate me chickensh*t.

Yes, because you don't debate. You build strawmen and then debate those. You are just a troll.

The last time you got your clock cleaned, and you been hiding from me ever since.

Hardly, I just don't debate fools that only insult people.


That's okay kenny, I wouldn't want to damage your fragile little mind ...

It's impossible to damage me with your nonsense.

[thaiboxerken]

Quote:

Originally posted by Valmorian


Perhaps he already has investigated 'Chi' and found it lacking.

This is a correct estimate. Chi is a woo-woo paranormal belief. And if any "chi masters" would like to demonstrate otherwise, please send your claimed ability and notorized application to www.randi.org .

[thaiboxerken]

Quote:

Originally posted by Girl 6


Franko...

Is there some reason you can't use a person's proper alias name in your responses?

G6

LOL. It's pretty obvious that it's because he loves to try and insult people. I don't find being called "thaifoodkenny" to be an insult though.

[Segnosaur]

Quote:

Originally posted by JANman
if Adam and Eve created the whole human race,it would mean we are all inbred,
(some theists behaviour certainly suggest that,lol)
when A&E had children,then their children must have had sex/children with their children,WTF isn't that incest?
isn't that against the bible/gods rules?

One explanation I have heard is that humans back then were somehow 'purer', so inbreeding wasn't a problem.

Of course, I prefer this explanation:
http://www.besse.at/sms/descent.html