Merged: [Ed] Get involved detecting the ade 651 detector / Jim McCormick arrested

[Biff Starbuck]

The police in Thailand seem to be buying the Alpha 6 dowsing rods to find drugs. 500,000 baht looks like $14,000 or 10,500 Euros each. I think that might be a new record for these pieces of junk.

Alpha 6 on sniffexquestions blog

Province to spend Bt1m on drug detection technology
TAH CHAT CHAI, PHUKET: Phuket Governor Wichai Phraisa-ngop has approved the purchase of two state-of-the-art detection devices, one for explosives and the other for contraband. The devices will be used at the Tah Chat Chai checkpoint.

The Alpha 6 detectors, which cost around 500,000 baht each, use “molecular resonance” technology to detect the presence of drugs and explosives from up to 300 meters away....

[Techowiz]

Hi Biff,
Thialand seems a popular destination market for the sellers of these scams, take a look at my effort to bring to the attention of the guys in Thialand the ridiculous GT200:-

http://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...tml#post832172

Regards

[Biff Starbuck]

Originally Posted by Techowiz

Hi Biff,
Thialand seems a popular destination market for the sellers of these scams, take a look at my effort to bring to the attention of the guys in Thialand the ridiculous GT200:-

http://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...tml#post832172

Regards

Thanks Techowiz.

I had not seen that forum before. The Thai citizens do not seem all that impressed with their police force. The comment about Thailand not having a functioning government looks even more true now than a few months ago. With all of the turmoil, this fraud may not be at the top of their to-do lists, but if they are using pieces of junk like the Alpha 6 and GT200 to find or exclude suspects in bombings, they absolutely need to know the products are worthless.

[Soapy Sam]

Guys-I don't want to teach anyone how to suck eggs, but this might be a good point to remind all concerned that some police and customs agents may be well aware that a detector does not work, yet still have a use for it.

[Biff Starbuck]

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Guys-I don't want to teach anyone how to suck eggs, but this might be a good point to remind all concerned that some police and customs agents may be well aware that a detector does not work, yet still have a use for it.

True. They might know it is a fraud, and use it to persecute political opponents. They might suspect it is a fraud, and not really care about proper testing since it appears to work. But I think most probably they are taken in by the ideomotor effect.

In a police state, it is much harder for the public to force the government to follow proper procedures for evidence.

[Techowiz]

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Guys-I don't want to teach anyone how to suck eggs, but this might be a good point to remind all concerned that some police and customs agents may be well aware that a detector does not work, yet still have a use for it.

I agree, like Biff, I think most of these Police Forces and Customs have been conned. Either that or received a nice bribe from the purchase.
The only other use for this scam equipment I can think of is if you attach it to a radio it might increase the signal strength, seems like a very expensive antenna extension though
regards

[Harpyja]

I find it dodgy that they would attempt to pass this thing off as an explosives detector.

Finding mineral ore and other such things is slightly more okay. If the dowsing rod doesn't detect anything, nobody dies or suffers drastic wounds. I wouldn't be surprised if a lawyer in the U.S. advised the makers of Sniffex of how much legal trouble they would be in if they attempted to market this in the States and someone was killed. Woo only holds up so far in court, especially if a grieving family is involved, and especially if the guy killed was in the police force or was a member of the military.

[The Master Cat]

Yeah, we should take the perpetrators and air-lift them into the middle of a minefield with a couple of these 'detectors'. Watch them wet themselves.

[Techowiz]

Originally Posted by Harpyja

I find it dodgy that they would attempt to pass this thing off as an explosives detector.

Dodgy is too small a word for this scam, they are actually putting lives at risk knowing this equipment could not detect a ton of explosives ten feet away!
regards

[Techowiz]

Originally Posted by The Master Cat

Yeah, we should take the perpetrators and air-lift them into the middle of a minefield with a couple of these 'detectors'. Watch them wet themselves.

I would love to see the video of that..
regards

[Biff Starbuck]

Looks like they are back at it in India again too.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/P...ow/4501191.cms

Demo of explosives detection device held
9 May 2009, 0322 hrs IST, TNN


PUNE: A demonstration of an explosives and narcotics detection unit GT200 manufactured by a multinational company in the United Kingdom was conducted at the Queen Mary's Technical Institute (QMTI) in the city on Friday.

The detection unit functions on para-magnetic principles and can detect explosives and narcotics on land, water and air. The event was organised by the Horizon Group, founded by retired Indian Army officers.

GT200 can be used for checking vehicles, port controls, air and naval operations and building searches. The unit can detect as many as 74 substances. Once the presence of a controlled substance is established, the unit can show its exact location.

Brig (retd) Amit Apte gave a presentation on the various functions of GT200 and later a live demonstration was conducted.

Maj Gen (retd) S G Pitre, the Horizon Group's chairman, said, "We have conducted similar presentations in a number of defence establishments across the country and the response has been very good. We are trying to obtain Petroleum and Explosives Safety Organisation's certification."

Maybe if a few of us point out to the Times of India these devices don't work and put their citizens at risk, they might find that newsworthy.

[Techowiz]

Hi Biff,

It would appear that they have comment moderation turned on, posted a comment last week and another today still no sign of my response on the web.
regards

[Dubious Dick]

Have been diverted for some time by other matters. However, thought you might like to know that I have received reassurances that a serious investigation is being carried out into the UK scammers i.e. ATSC (ADE), Global Technical (GT200), ComsTrac (Alpha6) and ICSS (PSD 22).

Believe it would be of great help if anyone in Germany can make formal complaints to the German MOD and senior politicians there as well. We have a briefing paper which can be used and anyone interested is welcome to PM for this.

We really need to keep up the pressure on these self manipulators!

[Biff Starbuck]

I noticed someone on the Straight Dope forum reported a sighting of the GT-200 in Mexico.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=518868

My sister bought me the first Straight Dope book and I loved it. It has lots of interesting questions, and a lot of the readers seem to have the same sense of curiosity of skeptics on JREF.

Techowiz, I tried to comment too, but did not see it either. I guess it is easier now to just publish wire service articles instead of doing actual reporting. It makes me even more glad the Dallas Morning News did the report on Sniffex after Randi initially exposed it.

[Techowiz]

Hi Biff.
Thanks for that link. Posted a comment.
regards

[Dubious Dick]

Guys and gals,

Thought you might like to know that we have heard the UK MOD is demanding that Global Technical withdraw all references to MOD/UK Government support/approval for the GT200.

We hope to publish the MOD letter in full. Keep an eye out on Lumpys excellent blog:

sniffexquestions.blogspot.com

Onwards and upwards. One by one we'll get these scammmers!!

[Biff Starbuck]

Techowiz, Dick, and Lumpy,

It looks like your exposure of the PSD-22 is working.

Mention of the PSD-22 by Techowiz

Update from Lumpy showing ICSSUK took the PSD-22 off of their web site

This shows you guys are making a difference. I don't think ICSSUK would have taken this bogus detector off of their web page without your efforts.

One small victory, but you never know - it might end up saving the life of a bomb technician or innocent civilian who would have otherwise been blown to smithereens by a bomb left undetected by the PSD-22.

Keep up the great work!!!

[Techowiz]

Full credit to Lumpy & DD for keeping this campaign very active.
regards

[Techowiz]

Fun and games on the UK skeptics site when a poster (Probably Director of ATSC, Jim McCormick) has tried to defend the ridiculous ADE651.
See http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/show...ghlight=ade651
for the story.
regards

[rjh01]

One person made a duplicated post on 8 July and their arguments were so weak that they never returned to defend them. That is boring.

[Biff Starbuck]

Yeah. It sounds like a post by a shill or Mr. Jim himself, but could just as easily be a customer.

In this old article from Reason magazine about the Quadro Tracker has an explanation from Randi himself about how hard it is to change the mind of someone who has already been convinced dowsing works.

Quote:

If there's a lesson to be learned from this, it goes beyond the old standard that people can be really dumb. From talking to Quadro believers, you can sense the sheer desperation of the fight against drugs and guns in the schools and in public that drives a man who might not be a total nincompoop to want to believe. Randi was on a crusade to convince Quadro buyers to renounce the device, but he didn't always succeed.

"Most of them get very angry at the suggestion they were fooled, and they probably never will change their mind," he says. "People have such faith in their own perception--they think what they see and hear necessarily represents the real world, but it's a very filtered view. That's why magicians are so successful. The spectator chooses to believe they are seeing what they think they are seeing."

http://www.reason.com/news/show/30037.html

[Techowiz]

Latest update,
The lying scumbag who goes under the name of, Mr Jim,(ATSC) on his youtube website posted an advertisement linking his scam device, the ADE651 to the tragedy of July the 7th. The suggestion being that his device could have someway prevented that tragedy.

After a suitable exposure by Dubious Dick and myself, the offending advertisement has been removed.

Mr Jim and the others, please note any more lies you post on the web will be exposed.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Originally Posted by Techowiz

Latest update,
The lying scumbag who goes under the name of, Mr Jim,(ATSC) on his youtube website posted an advertisement linking his scam device, the ADE651 to the tragedy of July the 7th. The suggestion being that his device could have someway prevented that tragedy.

After a suitable exposure by Dubious Dick and myself, the offending advertisement has been removed.

Mr Jim and the others, please note any more lies you post on the web will be exposed.

I missed that- what was it?

[Techowiz]

Hi Longtabber, on checking the internet Dubious Dick and myself found that Mr Jim (ATSC fame) had posted an advertisement on youtube. The content of the advertisement was made up mostly of press coverage of the tragedy that was July the 7th in the UK, at then end of the advertisement was a video of the scam device, the ADE651, the suggestion being that if the ADE651 had been in operation in the UK it may have prevented the tragedy. Dubious Dick and myself both commented how sick the suggestion that the ADE could prevent anything regarding explosives in our respective bloggs, with Dubious following up his blog post with an email to Mr Jim, subsequently the offending advertisement has now been removed.
Nice to see you back in the forum have missed your knowledgeable input.
regards

[Techowiz]

Another updae from the blog of Mr Jim;

He has found a new phrase to describe the working of his ridiculous ADE651, apparently it now works on, 'Nuclear Quadrupole Resonance"

Mr Jim how long has it taken you to find that phrase?
Better luck next time.
regards

[Biff Starbuck]

I do like his comment-

Quote:

Instead of me typing a whole lot of drivel (as you all seem to think I do), please go to your web browser and merely type in the following in your search engine......"NQR" or, "Nuclear Quadrupole Resonance"..........it is what we call EMA or Electro-Magnetic Attraction...............the principal by which OUR equipment works.

Throw out a scientific phrase, without explaining at all how it relates to the ADE651. Googling NQR does not tell me how the transistor radio antenna is attracted to the explosives by EMA. How is a signal generated by the ADE651? How powerful is the signal and what is the frequency of it? Why does the ADE651 have to be held by a human? Every other NQR device can be set on a stand and operate just fine without a person holding it. In fact, most NQR devices are huge and heavy.

You can paint black and white spots on a pig, but it does not make it a dalmatian. And you can put any scientific words you can imagine on a web site about your dowsing rod, but it does not make it an explosives detector.

[Biff Starbuck]

This is the worst part. Police and military officers are dying using these fraudulent pieces of junk. I have no sympathy for the peddlers of these cons. Even if they were initially sucked in themselves by the illusion that dowsing works, the fact they refuse to do the double-blind testing makes them guilty of willfully disregarding the possibility their equipment is costing lives.

They don't study engineering and use a theory like NQR to make a detector, they put a transistor radio antenna on a freely swinging pivot, and then try to rationalize why it seems to point at what they are looking for. As Randi has said, the dowsers NEED to believe. The device seems to work when the seller hides a sample from himself, and he knows he is not trying to cheat, so he NEEDS to try to come up with an explanation. NQR, EMA, NMR, electrostatics, resonance, quantum thingamajigs - you name it.

The SniffexQuestions blog recently posted an article from the Bangkok Post, describing the death of 3 officers using one of these dowsing rods.

http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.com...llow-lead.html

Quote:

When Faulty Technology can Cost Police Lives
By: Abdulloh Benjakat

Published: 28/06/2009 at 12:00 AM
(snip)
Three members of a border patrol police unit were killed in a blast while they were inspecting a suspected bomb planted on a road in Panare district. The GT 200 they were using apparently could not detect traces of explosives.
(snip)

At least the Bangkok Post can call a spade a spade. Meanwhile NPR is using kid gloves and not wanting to offend anyone so they call the purchase of millions of dollars of these dowsing rods in Iraq a debate. The users say they seem to work, but the experts say they do nothing. I guess we'll never know! Wrong! We do know! Equipment that only seems to work because of the same illusion as a Ouija board and has never passed a double blind test SHOULD NOT BE SOLD FOR EXPLOSIVES DETECTION!

[Techowiz]

UPDATE******



The ATSC website has now been offline for a few weeks now. Hope we haven't caused Mr Jim any problems, is it too much to hope for that he has stopped selling his scam equipment.

regards

[Dubious Dick]

Having long hoped and worked ia breakthrough on this story, was just contacted by Rod Nordland of the NYT and the following front oage story was put out today. Hopefully the start of the real war against these guys who peddle these life threatening devices. Yes, take a bow Jim McCormick of ATSC with his Awfully Dubious Equipment, the ADE651. Also. Mr. Gary Bolton of Global Technical, with his Gloriously Tatty GT200. Yes, guys, you people who do the Alpha 6 as well, and the wunderbar David Vollmar of SNIFFEX Europe, inheritors or should I say reincarnators of the great tradition of SNIFFEX in the U.S.

So to all of you, better keep your heads low. You never know where our next volley will arrive from. Good on Rod for exposing t he ludicrous Iraqi General who doesn't are if it is science or magic! Wow. What a leader he is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/wo...s.html?_r=1&hp

[Techowiz]

Full credit to Dubious Dick for bringing this about, I suspect the end of the ADE is near. I see the ATSC webiste is still down and the usually vocal Mr Jim did not return any calls, oh dear whatever could be the matter
Once again well done DD and of course, The New York Times.
regards

[jimtron]

Has anyone posted this yet? The NYT has an article (published yesterday) on the ADE 651:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/wo...04sensors.html

[Biff Starbuck]

DD,

If your efforts got the NYT to investigate this scam, then I applaud your success!

The more people who know about these dowsing rods being used under various names to look for explosives and drugs, the better chance we have of eliminating their use. Whether it is being illegally searched in Mexico for drugs or killed by a bomb in Thailand or Iraq the public and governments need to be warned.

I just want to say yea! A little bit of progress in the fight!

[jimtron]

From the NYT article:

Quote:

On Tuesday, a guard and a driver for The New York Times, both licensed to carry firearms, drove through nine police checkpoints that were using the device. None of the checkpoint guards detected the two AK-47 rifles and ammunition inside the vehicle.
During an interview on Tuesday, General Jabiri challenged a Times reporter to test the ADE 651, placing a grenade and a machine pistol in plain view in his office. Despite two attempts, the wand did not detect the weapons when used by the reporter but did so each time it was used by a policeman.
“You need more training,” the general said.

[Biff Starbuck]

Originally Posted by jimtron

From the NYT article:

Apparently ALL of the guards, police, and military in Iraq need more training in how to use it. For the salesman and the General, it works perfectly

[Biff Starbuck]

Originally Posted by Biff Starbuck

The police in Thailand seem to be buying the Alpha 6 dowsing rods to find drugs. 500,000 baht looks like $14,000 or 10,500 Euros each. I think that might be a new record for these pieces of junk.

Alpha 6 on sniffexquestions blog

Province to spend Bt1m on drug detection technology
TAH CHAT CHAI, PHUKET: Phuket Governor Wichai Phraisa-ngop has approved the purchase of two state-of-the-art detection devices, one for explosives and the other for contraband. The devices will be used at the Tah Chat Chai checkpoint.

The Alpha 6 detectors, which cost around 500,000 baht each, use “molecular resonance” technology to detect the presence of drugs and explosives from up to 300 meters away....

According to the Times article, the Iraqi government quadrupled the old record, paying $60,000 each for some of the ADE651 dowsing rods. Funny thing that ATSC UK stopped answering the phone. Refund? What's a refund?

[jimtron]

Doh! I don't know how I missed post #109...

[Techowiz]

Still all quiet at ATSC, website 'STILL under repair', telephones now disconnected, whatever could be the problem?
regards

[rjh01]

This link now works [/nfurl]http://www.cumberlandindustries.com/[/nfurl]. They do not advertise the ade 651 but the QS-H150 does not sound much different. It is still QUANTUM.

See also SWIFT http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...for-bombs.html

[Bill Thompson]

Are they claiming that it works on a paranormal level?

[Kuko 4000]

Very disturbing news

Good job guys!