The importance of secularism. Obama gets it.

RandFan · 6th November 2008, 05:56 PM

This video lays out Obama's views of the importance of secularism in America. It's a great video and showcases Obama's gift for speaking and his common sense view of the founding fathers vision.

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I AGREE

A longer video can be found here.

Sir Robin Goodfellow · 7th November 2008, 05:41 AM

That's a radical shift in worldview for the office of president. Not bludgeoning others with your churchiness. Impressive.

dudalb · 7th November 2008, 11:19 AM

Well done.
I think that Secularists have shot themsleves in the foot a lot by attacks on religon so over the top that they come off as no better then the "religionists" they despise so much.
This is a much better approach.

DanishDynamite · 7th November 2008, 11:24 AM

Obama clearly gets it. Yet another reason, if any was needed, to rejoice in his election.

ravdin · 7th November 2008, 11:46 AM

Wow. I hope that President Obama is willing to say the same things as Candidate Obama.

Tin Foil Timothy · 7th November 2008, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by ravdin

Wow. I hope that President Obama is willing to say the same things as Candidate Obama.

I hope so too.

Does that mean the Pledge of Allegiance is going to get it's much needed revision with the removal of the words "under God" ?

Gord_in_Toronto · 7th November 2008, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

I hope so too.

Does that mean the Pledge of Allegiance is going to get it's much needed revision with the removal of the words "under God" ?

I would suggest in my most humble opinion and as an outside that you don't get hung up on symbols.

Obama obviously did not think that wearing an American flag pin really meant anything but added one when the chattering classes started making their grunting noises,

My favourite person from history is Galileo -- "Eppur si muove!"

geni · 7th November 2008, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

My favourite person from history is Galileo -- "Eppur si muove!"

1)didn't happen

2)Despite that you have to be impressed by his ability to steal credit from others. Galileo was a great PR guy. Scientist? So so.

negativ · 7th November 2008, 08:42 PM

WOW.

I had never seen or heard that before. I am genuinely impressed, not because of what he is saying, but because it's being said by the next President of the United States.

Jesusland, indeed...

Tin Foil Timothy · 7th November 2008, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

I would suggest in my most humble opinion and as an outside that you don't get hung up on symbols.

Obama obviously did not think that wearing an American flag pin really meant anything but added one when the chattering classes started making their grunting noises,

My favourite person from history is Galileo -- "Eppur si muove!"

'God' isn't a 'symbol' for most believers. He/she is a real entity that gives license for all kinds of sectarianist and prejudicial ideology.

The USA is not one nation under god. For a sizable portion of the population god does not exist. It should be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance. It doesn't mean that those who want to worship a god do not have to.

The beauty of secularism is that it provides not only "Freedom from Religion" it also provides "Freedom of Religion"

Both are equally important.

CriticalThinking · 7th November 2008, 11:01 PM

Obama also gets that the NWO is what sets the agenda. He got it way better than McCain.

RandFan · 8th November 2008, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by negativ

WOW.

I had never seen or heard that before. I am genuinely impressed, not because of what he is saying, but because it's being said by the next President of the United States.

Jesusland, indeed...

Well, I like what he is saying but I get your point and I agree.

As a former Bush supporter and defender I gotta say there really is a big contrast between the rhetoric and speaking style of the two.

I hate to be trite but it really does give me hope for my country.

RandFan · 8th November 2008, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by CriticalThinking

Obama also gets that the NWO is what sets the agenda. He got it way better than McCain.

CT, could you elaborate and give us reason or evidence for your position? Opinions are fine but tossing them like grenades just to be polemic doesn't help much.

HarryKeogh · 8th November 2008, 03:17 AM

That was great. Thanks for posting it Randfan.

Reminds me of JFK's comments on the separation of church and state that he made over forty years ago. I imagine if he made these comments today they would be attacked and he would be smeared worse than when he made them all those years ago.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Father Dagon · 8th November 2008, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Well done.
I think that Secularists have shot themsleves in the foot a lot by attacks on religon so over the top that they come off as no better then the "religionists" they despise so much.
This is a much better approach.

Hear-hear! This speech (will see the full version later) was soo wu wei.

It's noteworthy that one word can have many different and often contradictory meanings. Some examples of what "religion" can mean:

The US: Big words at speeches and guidelines for stem cell research.
England: A non-threatening county vicar.
Sweden: A de facto state church that is sometimes like a big, politically correct, wet blanket that wants to be buddy-buddy with everyone.
Iraq: SECTARIAN VIOLENCE THAT WILL KILL YOU DEAD IN THE FACE!

Say what you want about the first three meanings, but they are quite bearable, as they are relatively un-radical.

So when you say that religion should play a role in the future political life of Iraq (as it now does with the theocratical constitution, thank you very much) you're sowing dragons' teeth. (Unless you want to implement policies in "the colony" over there that you can't do domestically.)

Gord_in_Toronto · 8th November 2008, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by geni

1)didn't happen

2)Despite that you have to be impressed by his ability to steal credit from others. Galileo was a great PR guy. Scientist? So so.

That's what all you anti-Galileoists say!

Gord_in_Toronto · 8th November 2008, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

'God' isn't a 'symbol' for most believers. He/she is a real entity that gives license for all kinds of sectarianist and prejudicial ideology.

The USA is not one nation under god. For a sizable portion of the population god does not exist. It should be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance. It doesn't mean that those who want to worship a god do not have to.

The beauty of secularism is that it provides not only "Freedom from Religion" it also provides "Freedom of Religion"

Both are equally important.

An attempt to remove the word from the Pledge or "In God we Trust" from your coinage would result in a huge battle. IMHO it would be wiser to make an effort to change things that actually have an impact on people.

SezMe · 8th November 2008, 06:33 AM

RandFan, do you know the date/location/occassion of that speech?

gdnp · 8th November 2008, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

I hope so too.

Does that mean the Pledge of Allegiance is going to get it's much needed revision with the removal of the words "under God" ?

Obama is not that stupid. Such an attempt would open an ugly, divisive battle and Obama would lose. Hell, Congress was so concerned that the mint had moved IN GOD WE TRUST to the edges of the Presidential dollars (which no one uses anyway) that a Democratic congress passed a law moving it to the front. That should give you a clue about how likely they are to pass a law removing non-secular religious symbols from government.

Tin Foil Timothy · 8th November 2008, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

An attempt to remove the word from the Pledge or "In God we Trust" from your coinage would result in a huge battle. IMHO it would be wiser to make an effort to change things that actually have an impact on people.

I agree. but it all adds up. These messages on coinage and Pledges do have an impact albeit more subliminally than others but they do have an impact none the less.

But yes more practical things first.

RandFan · 8th November 2008, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

RandFan, do you know the date/location/occassion of that speech?

I don't. Sorry.

SezMe · 8th November 2008, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by gdnp

Obama is not that stupid. Such an attempt would open an ugly, divisive battle and Obama would lose.

gdnp's right. In fact, the opposite is going to happen. Very soon now Newdow's "under god" case will be decided (again). Only this time he is acting as attorney for atheist couples so the whole issue of standing which the Supremes used last time to duck the issue is moot. It will likely go exactly the same way, congress will react the same way (remember 99 of them standing on the capitol steps saying the pledge?), and it will go to the Supremes again with no way out. This time they will probably use the "civil religion" excuse as a way out but if not congress will enact some really dumb legislation and Obama, being a consummate politician, will support it and sign it.

Pardalis · 8th November 2008, 12:03 PM

The fact that he actually took the time to mention non-believers just blew me away, and I saw that video before.

Wow.

Pardalis · 8th November 2008, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

My favourite person from history is Galileo -- "Eppur si muove!"

Be careful what you say, he posts around here.

Gord_in_Toronto · 8th November 2008, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Be careful what you say, he posts around here.

Mais ne semble le faire en anglais.

²

gumboot · 8th November 2008, 01:32 PM

Chill out people. If you want to talk religious symbols in government, we have a frikken head of state allegedly appointed by God himself, and yet we're all a bunch of non-religious communist family-hating liberal pinko infidels.

I hardly think a few words on a pledge or on a coin are going to influence things much. I mean, bear in mind we have EIIR's friggen HEAD on our coins and notes, and she's the head of the Anglican Church so that's like having the Pope on your coins, or someone like that. Hasn't made us all religious nutbag zealots.

Our National Anthems are called God Defend New Zealand and God Save The Queen and much as we love to sing the old stuffy tune (7th most patriotic nation on earth, thank you very much) we're still a nation of filthy heathens.

We have an official state religion and yet most of us couldn't pick our God out of a lineup of Olympian proportions.

Heck if we want to talk oaths, our Oath of Allegiance, Governor-General's Oath, Executive Council Oath, Judicial Oath, Armed Forces Oath and Police Oath all end with "So help me God".

Recently we amended our Oaths and there was heated discussion about removing reference to the Monarch and barely a ripple about removing the religious aspect.

And despite all of that my Nation is still a land of Godless pagans led by an openly agnostic Prime Minister.

Gord_in_Toronto · 8th November 2008, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

Chill out people. If you want to talk religious symbols in government, we have a frikken head of state allegedly appointed by God himself, and yet we're all a bunch of non-religious communist family-hating liberal pinko infidels.

I hardly think a few words on a pledge or on a coin are going to influence things much. I mean, bear in mind we have EIIR's friggen HEAD on our coins and notes, and she's the head of the Anglican Church so that's like having the Pope on your coins, or someone like that. Hasn't made us all religious nutbag zealots.

Our National Anthems are called God Defend New Zealand and God Save The Queen and much as we love to sing the old stuffy tune (7th most patriotic nation on earth, thank you very much) we're still a nation of filthy heathens.

We have an official state religion and yet most of us couldn't pick our God out of a lineup of Olympian proportions.

Heck if we want to talk oaths, our Oath of Allegiance, Governor-General's Oath, Executive Council Oath, Judicial Oath, Armed Forces Oath and Police Oath all end with "So help me God".

Recently we amended our Oaths and there was heated discussion about removing reference to the Monarch and barely a ripple about removing the religious aspect.

And despite all of that my Nation is still a land of Godless pagans led by an openly agnostic Prime Minister.

Ours too. Except for the agnostic PM but to make up for that our Head of State (or at least Her Majesty's representative in Canada) is a black African-american, foreign-born, African-canadian.

7th November 2008, 01:01 PM	#6
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089	Originally Posted by ravdin Wow. I hope that President Obama is willing to say the same things as Candidate Obama. I hope so too. Does that mean the Pledge of Allegiance is going to get it's much needed revision with the removal of the words "under God" ?
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089

7th November 2008, 07:22 PM	#7
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,417	Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy I hope so too. Does that mean the Pledge of Allegiance is going to get it's much needed revision with the removal of the words "under God" ? I would suggest in my most humble opinion and as an outside that you don't get hung up on symbols. Obama obviously did not think that wearing an American flag pin really meant anything but added one when the chattering classes started making their grunting noises, My favourite person from history is Galileo -- "Eppur si muove!"
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

7th November 2008, 08:42 PM	#9
negativ Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: the land of make-believe Posts: 1,905	WOW. I had never seen or heard that before. I am genuinely impressed, not because of what he is saying, but because it's being said by the next President of the United States. Jesusland, indeed...
	__________________ A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals. Eternal salvation or TRIPLE your money back!

7th November 2008, 10:09 PM	#10
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto I would suggest in my most humble opinion and as an outside that you don't get hung up on symbols. Obama obviously did not think that wearing an American flag pin really meant anything but added one when the chattering classes started making their grunting noises, My favourite person from history is Galileo -- "Eppur si muove!" 'God' isn't a 'symbol' for most believers. He/she is a real entity that gives license for all kinds of sectarianist and prejudicial ideology. The USA is not one nation under god. For a sizable portion of the population god does not exist. It should be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance. It doesn't mean that those who want to worship a god do not have to. The beauty of secularism is that it provides not only "Freedom from Religion" it also provides "Freedom of Religion" Both are equally important.
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089

7th November 2008, 11:01 PM	#11
CriticalThinking Scholar Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 58	Obama also gets that the NWO is what sets the agenda. He got it way better than McCain.
CriticalThinking Scholar Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 58

7th November 2008, 05:41 AM	#2
Sir Robin Goodfellow Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Estevan (wear da fox hat) Posts: 2,751	That's a radical shift in worldview for the office of president. Not bludgeoning others with your churchiness. Impressive.

7th November 2008, 11:19 AM	#3
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,837	Well done. I think that Secularists have shot themsleves in the foot a lot by attacks on religon so over the top that they come off as no better then the "religionists" they despise so much. This is a much better approach.

7th November 2008, 11:24 AM	#4
DanishDynamite Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: In the cold Posts: 10,802	Obama clearly gets it. Yet another reason, if any was needed, to rejoice in his election.

7th November 2008, 11:46 AM	#5
ravdin Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 3,562	Wow. I hope that President Obama is willing to say the same things as Candidate Obama.

7th November 2008, 07:47 PM	#8
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,575	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto My favourite person from history is Galileo -- "Eppur si muove!" 1)didn't happen 2)Despite that you have to be impressed by his ability to steal credit from others. Galileo was a great PR guy. Scientist? So so.

8th November 2008, 01:12 AM	#12
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,300	Originally Posted by negativ WOW. I had never seen or heard that before. I am genuinely impressed, not because of what he is saying, but because it's being said by the next President of the United States. Jesusland, indeed... Well, I like what he is saying but I get your point and I agree. As a former Bush supporter and defender I gotta say there really is a big contrast between the rhetoric and speaking style of the two. I hate to be trite but it really does give me hope for my country.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

8th November 2008, 01:15 AM	#13
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,300	Originally Posted by CriticalThinking Obama also gets that the NWO is what sets the agenda. He got it way better than McCain. CT, could you elaborate and give us reason or evidence for your position? Opinions are fine but tossing them like grenades just to be polemic doesn't help much.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

8th November 2008, 04:45 AM	#15
Father Dagon Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Stockholm, Sweden, Mater Evropa, Sol-III Posts: 1,193	Originally Posted by dudalb Well done. I think that Secularists have shot themsleves in the foot a lot by attacks on religon so over the top that they come off as no better then the "religionists" they despise so much. This is a much better approach. Hear-hear! This speech (will see the full version later) was soo wu wei. It's noteworthy that one word can have many different and often contradictory meanings. Some examples of what "religion" can mean: The US: Big words at speeches and guidelines for stem cell research. England: A non-threatening county vicar. Sweden: A de facto state church that is sometimes like a big, politically correct, wet blanket that wants to be buddy-buddy with everyone. Iraq: SECTARIAN VIOLENCE THAT WILL KILL YOU DEAD IN THE FACE! Say what you want about the first three meanings, but they are quite bearable, as they are relatively un-radical. So when you say that religion should play a role in the future political life of Iraq (as it now does with the theocratical constitution, thank you very much) you're sowing dragons' teeth. (Unless you want to implement policies in "the colony" over there that you can't do domestically.)
	__________________ "Eh-ya-ya-ya-yahaah - e'yayayayaaaa... nhg'aaaaa... ngh'aaaa... h'yuh... h'yuh... HELP! HELP!... ff-ff-ff-FATHER! FATHER! YOG-SOTHOTH"

8th November 2008, 06:22 AM	#16
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,417	Originally Posted by geni 1)didn't happen 2)Despite that you have to be impressed by his ability to steal credit from others. Galileo was a great PR guy. Scientist? So so. That's what all you anti-Galileoists say!
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

8th November 2008, 06:27 AM	#17
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,417	Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy 'God' isn't a 'symbol' for most believers. He/she is a real entity that gives license for all kinds of sectarianist and prejudicial ideology. The USA is not one nation under god. For a sizable portion of the population god does not exist. It should be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance. It doesn't mean that those who want to worship a god do not have to. The beauty of secularism is that it provides not only "Freedom from Religion" it also provides "Freedom of Religion" Both are equally important. An attempt to remove the word from the Pledge or "In God we Trust" from your coinage would result in a huge battle. IMHO it would be wiser to make an effort to change things that actually have an impact on people.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

8th November 2008, 06:33 AM	#18
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,367	RandFan, do you know the date/location/occassion of that speech?

8th November 2008, 06:47 AM	#19
gdnp useless idiot Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Jersey-You gotta problem wit dat? Posts: 4,999	Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy I hope so too. Does that mean the Pledge of Allegiance is going to get it's much needed revision with the removal of the words "under God" ? Obama is not that stupid. Such an attempt would open an ugly, divisive battle and Obama would lose. Hell, Congress was so concerned that the mint had moved IN GOD WE TRUST to the edges of the Presidential dollars (which no one uses anyway) that a Democratic congress passed a law moving it to the front. That should give you a clue about how likely they are to pass a law removing non-secular religious symbols from government.

8th November 2008, 08:22 AM	#20
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto An attempt to remove the word from the Pledge or "In God we Trust" from your coinage would result in a huge battle. IMHO it would be wiser to make an effort to change things that actually have an impact on people. I agree. but it all adds up. These messages on coinage and Pledges do have an impact albeit more subliminally than others but they do have an impact none the less. But yes more practical things first.
Tin Foil Timothy Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,089

8th November 2008, 09:08 AM	#21
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,300	Originally Posted by SezMe RandFan, do you know the date/location/occassion of that speech? I don't. Sorry.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

8th November 2008, 11:57 AM	#22
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,367	Originally Posted by gdnp Obama is not that stupid. Such an attempt would open an ugly, divisive battle and Obama would lose. gdnp's right. In fact, the opposite is going to happen. Very soon now Newdow's "under god" case will be decided (again). Only this time he is acting as attorney for atheist couples so the whole issue of standing which the Supremes used last time to duck the issue is moot. It will likely go exactly the same way, congress will react the same way (remember 99 of them standing on the capitol steps saying the pledge?), and it will go to the Supremes again with no way out. This time they will probably use the "civil religion" excuse as a way out but if not congress will enact some really dumb legislation and Obama, being a consummate politician, will support it and sign it.

8th November 2008, 12:03 PM	#23
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	The fact that he actually took the time to mention non-believers just blew me away, and I saw that video before. Wow.
	Last edited by Pardalis; 8th November 2008 at 12:04 PM.

8th November 2008, 12:05 PM	#24
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto My favourite person from history is Galileo -- "Eppur si muove!" Be careful what you say, he posts around here.

8th November 2008, 01:02 PM	#25
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,417	Originally Posted by Pardalis Be careful what you say, he posts around here. Mais ne semble le faire en anglais. ²
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

8th November 2008, 01:32 PM	#26
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,126	Chill out people. If you want to talk religious symbols in government, we have a frikken head of state allegedly appointed by God himself, and yet we're all a bunch of non-religious communist family-hating liberal pinko infidels. I hardly think a few words on a pledge or on a coin are going to influence things much. I mean, bear in mind we have EIIR's friggen HEAD on our coins and notes, and she's the head of the Anglican Church so that's like having the Pope on your coins, or someone like that. Hasn't made us all religious nutbag zealots. Our National Anthems are called God Defend New Zealand and God Save The Queen and much as we love to sing the old stuffy tune (7th most patriotic nation on earth, thank you very much) we're still a nation of filthy heathens. We have an official state religion and yet most of us couldn't pick our God out of a lineup of Olympian proportions. Heck if we want to talk oaths, our Oath of Allegiance, Governor-General's Oath, Executive Council Oath, Judicial Oath, Armed Forces Oath and Police Oath all end with "So help me God". Recently we amended our Oaths and there was heated discussion about removing reference to the Monarch and barely a ripple about removing the religious aspect. And despite all of that my Nation is still a land of Godless pagans led by an openly agnostic Prime Minister.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

8th November 2008, 02:07 PM	#27
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,417	Originally Posted by gumboot Chill out people. If you want to talk religious symbols in government, we have a frikken head of state allegedly appointed by God himself, and yet we're all a bunch of non-religious communist family-hating liberal pinko infidels. I hardly think a few words on a pledge or on a coin are going to influence things much. I mean, bear in mind we have EIIR's friggen HEAD on our coins and notes, and she's the head of the Anglican Church so that's like having the Pope on your coins, or someone like that. Hasn't made us all religious nutbag zealots. Our National Anthems are called God Defend New Zealand and God Save The Queen and much as we love to sing the old stuffy tune (7th most patriotic nation on earth, thank you very much) we're still a nation of filthy heathens. We have an official state religion and yet most of us couldn't pick our God out of a lineup of Olympian proportions. Heck if we want to talk oaths, our Oath of Allegiance, Governor-General's Oath, Executive Council Oath, Judicial Oath, Armed Forces Oath and Police Oath all end with "So help me God". Recently we amended our Oaths and there was heated discussion about removing reference to the Monarch and barely a ripple about removing the religious aspect. And despite all of that my Nation is still a land of Godless pagans led by an openly agnostic Prime Minister. Ours too. Except for the agnostic PM but to make up for that our Head of State (or at least Her Majesty's representative in Canada) is a black African-american, foreign-born, African-canadian.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick