Send in the tanks! (Chavez)

[Giggywig]

So it seems Chavez is ratcheting up the rhetoric in the run up to elections in a couple of weeks:

Quote:

On 9 November, President Hugo Chávez declared that he might send tanks on to the streets in the state of Carabobo if the opposition wins in provincial elections scheduled for 23 November.
link

The speech in question:

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I AGREE

Quote:

If you allow that the oligarchy and above all [some opposition guy] return to power, I might end up taking out the tanks of the armored brigade to defend the revolutionary government and to defend the people of Carabobo.

You may argue that this is just rhetoric, but imagine if Bush had said he would bring out the tanks to defend the people if McCain had lost? Even joking that would have been a chilling statement. We may find out in a couple of weeks if Chavez was joking or not.

[gtc]

Why even bother holding an election?

P.S. Nice Tags.

[Richard Masters]

More interestingly, Chavez confirms that he wants to obtain nuclear material from Russia. (From the video).

[Childlike Empress]

Venezuela's Elections of November 23: A Briefing

Quote:

[...] Over 5000 candidates will contest 603 elections for 22 state governors, 328 mayors, 233 state legislative councillors and a range of other local positions. 17 million Venezuelans will have the opportunity to vote in these elections.

The elections will be the 14th set of national votes held since 1998 when Hugo Chávez was first elected as President. Hugo Chávez and his coalition of supporters have won 12 of the 13 previous national elections and referenda. This is in stark contrast to the 40 years prior to President Chávez‘s election, when only 15 national electoral contests were staged in Venezuela.

Elections under the government of Hugo Chavez have been verified as free and fair by a range of independent international observers including the Organisation of American States, the European Union and the US Carter Centre. A total of 134 foreign observers will take part in November's election, according to Venezuela's independent National Electoral Council (CNE). The observers will come from 34 member countries of the Organization of American States (OAS), and include representatives of electoral organizations from America, Europe, Africa and Asia.

With regards to equality, half of the candidates standing in the local and regional elections will be women, following the implementation of legislation to ensure gender equality earlier this year. This is a tremendous advance for women in Venezuela - when these elections were last contested in 2004, 82% of candidates were male and 18% female. [...]

[Oliver]

Chavez is some strange fellow. He contradicts himself pretty often - so
his words are pretty much meaningless, aren't they? :

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hugochavez/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...gochavez/view/

[dudalb]

I see that Childlike Empress has no problems with dictators and authoritarian rule so long as they are left wing.

[Childlike Empress]

I see dudalb has no idea what the word "dictator" means.

[Richard Masters]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Chavez is some strange fellow. He contradicts himself pretty often - so
his words are pretty much meaningless, aren't they? :

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hugochavez/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...gochavez/view/

Pretty much. But it's more of an attempt at humor.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

I see dudalb has no idea what the word "dictator" means.

And if Joseph Stalin were alive today you would be explaining why he is not a "dictator".

[geni]

Originally Posted by Giggywig

You may argue that this is just rhetoric, but imagine if Bush had said he would bring out the tanks to defend the people if McCain had lost? Even joking that would have been a chilling statement. We may find out in a couple of weeks if Chavez was joking or not.

Bush has no history of attempting to bring out the militry to hold onto or gain power. Chavez has tried to carry out a militry coup attempt in the past.

[moon1969]

I guess Chavez is just like Mikheil Saakashvili? Both are dictators. America supports Mikheil Saakashvili but not Chavez.

[Childlike Empress]

edit: @dudalb

Wrong.

Now explain to us how Chavez, who is president of a country which happens to have the thirteenth national vote under his rule today, is a dictator, dudalb. I'm listening.

[boloboffin]

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

edit: @dudalb

Wrong.

Now explain to us how Chavez, who is president of a country which happens to have the thirteenth national vote under his rule today, is a dictator, dudalb. I'm listening.

Did you miss the quote about the tanks in the OP, both post and title?

[Childlike Empress]

No. Why? As the OP said:

Quote:

We may find out in a couple of weeks if Chavez was joking or not.

Jushchenko said he will NOT use tanks against the parliament. We will find out if that was a true statement when he left office. Yeltzin didn't say he will use tanks against the parliament. He simply did it.

[gtc]

I know you grew up in a despicable dictatorship, so your ignorance is understandable.

However, in a normal democratic country, leaders with a history of launching coups do not joke about sending in tanks if the vote goes against them. That sort of thing, is rightly, considered to be voter intimidation.

[gtc]

The problem is that the 'useful idiots' of the world have the luxury of deciding that Chavez is joking. The voters of Venezuela are the ones who will be facing Chavez's tanks if he is not joking.

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Originally Posted by gtc

The problem is that the 'useful idiots' of the world have the luxury of deciding that Chavez is joking. The voters of Venezuela are the ones who will be facing Chavez's tanks if he is not joking.

It was the voters of Venezuela that got shot by those engineering the coup against Chavez in 2002 when their march was redirected towards the palace.

Chavez was returned to power by the power of the people. And surely no one here implied he is a dictator?

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Tin Foil Timothy

Chavez was returned to power by the power of the people. And surely no one here implied he is a dictator?

Quote:

I might end up taking out the tanks of the armored brigade to defend the revolutionary governmen

Read that again. Once you do, look at the history of how one party states have faired since 1917. Then, please tell me why that does not bother you.

Thanks.

DR

[Childlike Empress]

Venezuela has 85 registered parties.

I'm certainly not defending everything Chavez says, the guy is loudmouthed and very emotional. But talk doesn't make him a dictator. Furthermore, given the history of corporate media reporting on Venezuela, i'm suspecting that the quote is out of context. I searched for a transcript but didn't find one. Here is the best i've found:

Originally Posted by El Presidente

"Les repito que el Chávez de 2002 quedó atrás. En el supuesto que la oligarquía tome la Gobernación de Carabobo, en ese supuesto, el año que viene sería un año de guerra. Ellos quieren tumbarme, y no voy a permitir que me tumben. Ustedes tienen el instrumento. Les habló a la gente honesta de Carabobo. Mario Silva es la garantía de paz, y la oligarquía la garante de la guerra. Escojan ustedes el camino. Si la oligarquía y el ¿polluelo pitiyanqui golpista ¿regresan a la gobernación, a lo mejor voy a terminar sacando los tanques de la Brigada Blindada para defender al gobierno revolucionario, y al pueblo de Carabobo."

which Google translates to

Quote:

"I repeat that Chavez was back in 2002. In the event that the oligarchy take the governor of Carabobo, in that event next year would be a year of war. They want to lie down, and I will not allow me grave. You have the instrument. I spoke to the honest people of Carabobo. Mario Silva is the guarantee of peace, the oligarchy and the guarantor of the war. Choose your route. If the oligarchy and the ¿chicken coup pitiyanqui you come back to the governorate , Maybe I will finish pulling tanks Armored Brigade to defend the revolutionary government, and people of Carabobo. "

[gtc]

The context doesn't change what he said one iota.

Google translation is obviously a very poor translator but it does confirm that he said:

Quote:

If you allow that the oligarchy and above all [some opposition guy] return to power, I might end up taking out the tanks of the armored brigade to defend the revolutionary government and to defend the people of Carabobo.

Talk doesn't make you a dictator but voter intimidation doesn't make a democracy.

[Childlike Empress]

Of course it does. Apparently he was talking about the 2002 coup done by the right upperclass opposition with help from the "chicken coup pitiyanquis" (). He has every reason to be paranoid about troublemakers. So what he says is that if the opposition wins in Carabobo and if they start making trouble, like he predicts, then maybe he will end up using tanks.

[geni]

Originally Posted by gtc

The problem is that the 'useful idiots' of the world have the luxury of deciding that Chavez is joking. The voters of Venezuela are the ones who will be facing Chavez's tanks if he is not joking.

Actualy that would be a fairly minor problem. More significantly the US threw away any moral authority it had in the area when it failed to oppose the coup against Chavez. Result is that any US complaints look highly hypocritical. Long standing diplomatic protocols mean that europe (king of spain not withstanding) cannot make any significant moves with regards to the problem. The other south american countries mostly have their own problems to worry about or don't want to be seen as too pro-american to their voters.

Result Chavez doesn't really have to worry about about external criticism. Internal critism is growing but runs into problems that actualy for the venzuelen poor he hasn't done that bad a job. If he steps down at the end of his term a case could be made that as south american presidents go he was at least moderately competant if rather egostical.

Will he step down? His history says maybe. He doesn't respect democracy much but he did respect the result of the referendum. He knows there are still powerful people who oppose him and combiened with a genuine popular movement against him that would very much limit his options.

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by gtc

Why even bother holding an election?

It is necessary to keep up this pretense in order to keep the useful idiots in the West on his side, internationally.

[geni]

Originally Posted by Beerina

It is necessary to keep up this pretense in order to keep the useful idiots in the West on his side, internationally.

Try thinking rather than reacting. You entire claim is based on the premise that Chavez cares what they west thinks. He does not. The US blew it's moral authority (if it had any in south america) due to it behaviour over the coup against Chavez. The US is also unlikely to stop buying his oil. As for the rest of the west longstanding diplomatic protocols render them irrelivent.

So where else? South america? To an extent his oil money buys some support. For the rest their condemation is not a major concern. OPEC? Democracy is not a priority for OPEC. China? Russia? Much the same.

Chavez will not oppose elections for internal reasons. Fundimentaly they are of little significance. The damage they can do to his position is limited. His term lasts untill 2013. Chavez gains nothing by throwing away democratic legitimacy (and he is the legitimataly elected president) before that point.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by geni

His term lasts untill 2013.

Want to bet?

[gtc]

Originally Posted by geni

Chavez will not oppose elections for internal reasons.

If he doesn't oppose them, why is he threatening to send in the tanks if the vote goes agains him?

[geni]

Originally Posted by WildCat

Want to bet?

Well he's unlikely to get any constitutional changes through so yes that is when his term as elected president comes to an end. Obviously he may then try start a new term as dictator for life but that is a seperate issue.

[Childlike Empress]

Originally Posted by venezuelanalysis

[...] In total, Chávez’s party won 17 out of the 22 states in which governors were elected and obtained about 5.4 million votes in these contests, which would be about 57% of the total vote. In the 2004 regional elections Chávez’s candidates won in 20 out of the 22 gubernatorial contests. However, in the year or two before this election, governors in three of these states (in Aragua, Guarico, and Sucre states) switched over to the opposition.

Meanwhile, the opposition won five states, including the two most populous states, in addition to the Capital District of Caracas. Four of these victories represented a switch from PSUV control to opposition control (Miranda, Tachira, Carabobo, and Greater Caracas), while in two the opposition maintained its control (Zulia and Nueva Esparta). [...]

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3983

[geni]

Originally Posted by gtc

If he doesn't oppose them, why is he threatening to send in the tanks if the vote goes agains him?

Doesn't oppose the elections the posible results(and he is likely to now accept the results). Why did he say that? Various reasons. Chavez isn't always that easy to read so could be a caluated reminder not to try anything or it could be runaway retoric with nothing behind it.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Venezuela has 85 registered parties.

And only one party currently in charge of the tanks.

If he'll do it against one faction, any other faction is as likely to see the tanks as they, unless they kowtow.

DR

[geni]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

And only one party currently in charge of the tanks.

Questionable. Chavezes past actions strongly suggest he is unsure of army loyalty to him.

Quote:

If he'll do it against one faction,

He hasn't done it againsy any yet.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by geni

Questionable. Chavezes past actions strongly suggest he is unsure of army loyalty to him.

Fair enough.

Quote:

He hasn't done it againsy any yet.

Of course not. What we are discussing is the threat of doing so. That is the matter that is troubling. I think we would agree that it would be more troubling were he to let the tanks roll as threatened. Whether or not he could takes us to your other observation. It may all be gas.

DR

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by geni

Quote:

Quote:

Why even bother holding an election?

It is necessary to keep up this pretense in order to keep the useful idiots in the West on his side, internationally.

Try thinking rather than reacting. You entire claim is based on the premise that Chavez cares what they west thinks. He does not. The US blew it's moral authority (if it had any in south america) due to it behaviour over the coup against Chavez.

Try thinking rather than reacting.

Of course Chavez doesn't think what the US does, officially. However, he cares what the useful idiots in the West think about him.

That is, his apologists in the West, of which it is in his interest to keep stringing along.

Given that, much of the rest of your comment is invalid.

Quote:

Chavez will not oppose elections for internal reasons. Fundimentaly they are of little significance. The damage they can do to his position is limited. His term lasts untill 2013.

"Little significance"?

Perhaps if you define "little significance" incorrectly as "throwing him directly out of office".

However, clearly his party losing big in provincial elections is both a probability and a threat to his power in that it will show a building momentum to kick his ass out sooner or later.

Politicians, both provincial and national, will be emboldened to oppose him.

Hence it must be disallowed. With fraudulent claims that "necessitate tanks".

There is a lot more to it than merely directly losing his own election, which, as you point out, isn't up until 2013.

Quote:

Chavez gains nothing by throwing away democratic legitimacy (and he is the legitimataly elected president) before that point.

He would throw it away by sending in tanks, or other threats, or supressing media, all of which he has done or is hinting at. It's already an illegitimate presidency due to actions after the election, regardless of how "fair" it was originally.

Perhaps it would stir up more domestic outrage than simply sending in tanks, I would grant that.

[geni]

Originally Posted by Beerina

Try thinking rather than reacting.

Of course Chavez doesn't think what the US does, officially. However, he cares what the useful idiots in the West think about him.

Prove it.

Quote:

"Little significance"?

Perhaps if you define "little significance" incorrectly as "throwing him directly out of office".

The current elections can't do that.

Quote:

However, clearly his party losing big in provincial elections is both a probability and a threat to his power in that it will show a building momentum to kick his ass out sooner or later.

His part won most of the positions up for election. With a couple of exceptions the ones he lost were always going to be rather hard to win in any case.

Quote:

Politicians, both provincial and national, will be emboldened to oppose him.

Most of them are memebers of his party so seems unlikely/

Quote:

Hence it must be disallowed. With fraudulent claims that "necessitate tanks".

And yet despite your claims that the results equate to "losing big" no tanks have appeared.

Quote:

He would throw it away by sending in tanks, or other threats,

Sending in tanks is not a threat it's an action.

Quote:

or supressing media,

There are dozens of ways of supressing the media without haveing much impact on your democratic legitimacy. Berlusconi could probably provide you with a list.

Quote:

all of which he has done or is hinting at. It's already an illegitimate presidency due to actions after the election, regardless of how "fair" it was originally.

You mean sucessfuly beating a coup attempt just when it appeared to be going so well? Yes I can see how you might have problems with that.

Quote:

Perhaps it would stir up more domestic outrage than simply sending in tanks, I would grant that.

Tanks are a risk since Chavez's base hasn't been the army for some time.

[GreyICE]

My feelings on Chavez are simple - democracy is not an imposed monarchy. If the people want an absolutely corrupt man who thinks of himself as a virtual dictator and does not respect the rule of law, well, at least that one won the popular vote too.

Doesn't mean I have to like 'em.

[Grizzly Bear]

Originally Posted by WildCat

Want to bet?

If I recall correctly (and I can't remember for the life of me where I read about it), didn't Chavez say after the first attempt that he would not pursue the amendment further, or am I thinking about a different policy of his?

Wither way, if he fails this time I'm guarenteeing he'll pursue it until hios term is up if he has to :\

[boloboffin]

Frontline did their latest documentary on Hugo Chavez.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hugochavez/

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by boloboffin

Frontline did their latest documentary on Hugo Chavez.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hugochavez/

Thank you.

Power corrupts. It's sad and quite pathetic. There was a real possibility for change. I'd be happy for the Venezuelan people to have prosperity with any leader and political system.

Playing to people's fears and turning America into a boogeyman won't solve his nations problems.

[shecky]

The only thing I find more ridiculous than Chavez is the impulse among some Americans to treat him as if he matters, giving him the gravitas that he otherwise would never earn. He wants to make a show of American hostility in order to play up his narrative as an underdog savior, and plenty of Americans are more than willing to step up to the plate and validate his status.

[DC]

Childlike Empress

it is not worth the effort.

the Media calls Chavez a dictator and parrots like dudalb and co will repeat that lie and belive it to be true.

Chavez is a Socislist. in the USA they know Socialism is so Evil™ and no free human beeing, no mather how much Social thinking or how poor one is, no one would vote for a socialist. So he is a Dictator.

Once again, nobody is interested when the CIA supports a coup against a elected goverment.

the same people that call Chavez an evil Dictator are proly the same that was so happy with the US support for a Military Dictator in Pakistan.....

it is amusing to read the comments here, could be directly from FOX news.